| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
You are right, Val. It is an impasse. It is exactly the same dichotomy that initiated the Reformation. Reformers -- Justification (salvation) is God declaring and regarding us righteous (imputed righteousness) for the sake of the work of Jesus Christ. Catholic -- Justification (salvation) is both God declaring us righteous and God making us righteous by infusing His grace into our hearts. Reformers -- Salvation by grace through faith alone Catholic -- Salvation by grace that changes our hearts through faith that works in love. If I felt like the Gospel of salvation by the obedience of Jesus Christ alone was not worthy of presenting and defending, I would be silent. If it were of no consequence, then why did the Reformation change the entire Christian world? If you on this forum are tired of hearing the Gospel, then so be it. But the issues are vital. It is the Reformation in a teapot. The Gospel, when it confronts us, demands a decision. Someday you will have to choose: Which is it? Salvation by trusting in the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone; or salvation by the historical work of Jesus Christ and by His work inside of us. There is no middle ground. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti;-)) Thank you for the time you have taken to answer. You have not answered a question that I would dearly love for you to answer. In my effort to get that answer, I will re-post a previous post: <<By Maryann on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 11:34 am: Hi Lydell, I'm sorry to bore you or other's. I just have to re-post from the other day in this line about my experience. The people that were pushing the "get saved" thing were also pushing, "look as us, our Church, our families etc. along with the pointing to the gospel and Christ. It was a near copy of the SDA background I came from with the exception of Sabbath keeping and a few other doctrines that are typical to Evangelicals. Yet through it all, I still was pounded with security of my salvation and that my actions would not keep out of heaven. I despised looking at the lifestyles of the majority of the people in that Church. They were sooooo, sooooo legalistic. The guys at work that influenced me so greatly never pushed "look at us, look at our Church, look at our families. They always pointed me to Christ and the cross. I was the one that asked them about their lives. I was the one that said that they were different. I was the one that, because of their christlike example, decided to take another look at Christianity! And that is really something to praise God about!!!;-)) Here's the other days post: "By Maryann on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 09:35 am: Hi All, Would this be a sound Biblical statement?: Our charater, our changed life, the fruits of the Spirit that the Spirit demonstrates though us in our obedience to the promptings of the Spirit; demonstrate to those around us, CREDENCE to the fact that our Savior provided for us, SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE. I remember when I first, "got saved." (About 1995) The "sinner's prayer" was pushed on me for several hours by several ladies before I finally gave in to THEIR pressure. It was a shallow, selfish, to benifit me "get saved" prayer proceedure. From the way that salvation by grace was presented to me by THESE PEOPLE, it seemed to me a sure fire way to "let God" save me, and me continue on in my same ugly life style. Armed with my "new" salvation under arm, I went to work and bragged about how easy and cool it was to "get saved!!" I mentioned it to a few of my now, "unsaved buddies" and suggested that they too should try it. After several of my buddies told me that Christians didn't act like I was acting, I shut my mouth and was very happy to go to another job and forget the whole "saved" thing. During this time, I was witnessed to by some wonderful Christian guys at work. They pointed to Christ as their sole salvation and gave me verses and so on. I asked them about their lives and how long they had been Christians. One guy, Kenny, was particularly interesting to me as the life he described a few years earlier was very similar to mine. Kenny radiated JOY. He radiated Christ with out even opening his mouth. So did a guy named Ralph and many others. The lives that Kenny and Ralph lived and the loving and non-critical witness they gave to me when I asked them about Christ and what he did for them both in salvation and in their personal live was the SEED that was planted in my heart!! PRAISE GOD FOR THE JOY AND CHRISTLIKENESS THAT RADIATED FROM KENNY AND RALPH'S LIVES. I am sooooooooooo ashamed of the horrible witness I gave to those at work that I told I was saved!!!!;,,,,-(( When I was only using "saved" as a way to continue to live an UN-CHRISTLIKE lifestyle!!!! Since the seeds that Kenny and Ralph got watered over the next few years and various incidents have happened, I was "saved" in about 1998. It was not like the first time I prayed the sinner's prayed from my head while being pushed into it, it was quietly, alone and from my heart. Sure, I have my ups and downs (and I'm down right now) as I'm sure most of you do. The difference now is that I have a peace that I never had before and the burning desire to serve Christ and share with as many as possible, the wonderful news of SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE! Again, praise God for the witness of Kenny and Ralph and the "credence" their actions gave to the fact that they had given their lives wholly and completely over to Christ. Emotionally flat from 1 week of being with one of my best friends that believes and practices "continued" justification to a "T" by his deeds......Maryann" Now, with the witness of David and my own testimony of how another persons christlike life affected me, how anyone could possibly say that our lives are not, at times, the "first line of witness" that some will be exposed to, I'LL NEVER KNOW. I don't need to put the verses up! They are in abundance in above post's. Then one asked, "what if you slip or are a "selfish" Christian that is not willing to share your faith?" I would say you are NOT a good witness to Christ and the salvation He has provided to each one of us, for the harder than working requirement, just accepting it by faith alone. Then, to my understanding of verses like 1 Cor.3:12-15 and 1 Cor. 22-27, you are judged, NOT regarding your salvation, but for the reward that Christ has those that are faithful to Him in their witness to and for Him. As a little note here. My understanding is that Salvation is a FREE GIFT for those that accept it and even a quick trip to a dictionary will tell you that a reward is something earned. So when the Bible is speaking of "rewards" you MUST automaticly KNOW that is is totally and absolutely UNRELATED to Salvation, a FREE GIFT. Kelly, if you read this, please don't get discouraged if it was confusing!;-)) Lydell, Patti, Rayna, Max (ladies first;-), if y'all don't agree, PLEASE, let's discuss it. IBC....:):)>> Okay Patti, (Ralph winessed to me about a year before I met Kenny. The seed germinated slowly) I, as an un-saved, un-churched, sinner looked at Kenny and Ralph. I could see their Christian lives radiating from their faces, actions and the way they related. I then asked if they were Christians and they said, "Yes!" I then asked them about their lives and why they radiated Christianity so clearly without opening their mouths about God, Jesus or anything religious. They then told me it was because of Christ and the plan of salvation, as I "now" understand it, and that I too, could have the peace and the assurance in Christ that they had. (Kenny in particular, came from a life style similar to mine and was delivered from it and it was his testimony of that and Christ that had the most impact in my life!) I CAME FROM SDAism! I was a Bible illiterate!!;-(( I was NOT able to judge whether they were speaking Biblical truth!!!! I only knew the Bible Stories and EGW!! (I didn't even know that the Gospels were the same basic story by 4 different disciples!!!!) I was ignorant of God and the Bible!!!! Take of your Christian shoes and put on the shoes of the ignorant un-believer and HONESTLY ANSWER ME these questions: Would you have asked Ralph and Kenny about Christ if they were not reflecting their walk with Christ? Would you have been intersted in their God it they had been just like the rest of the guys in their actions? GOD HELP ME IF I AM A ROMAN CATHOLIC IN DOCTRINE! GOD HELP ME IF MY SALVATION IS NOTHING MORE THAN A CRUEL FARCE AND MY BELIEF THAT LIVING A CHRISTIAN LIFE BECAUSE I'M SAVED IS UN-BIBLICAL AND THE HEIGHT OF PRIDE!! GOD HELP ME IF I THINK MY CHRISTIAN LIFESTYLE IS IN ANY WAY A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR TO MY SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE!!! GOD HELP ME A SINNER SAVED BY GRACE ALONE!!!! IBC | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, One a different note; how are you doing. I have thought of you often and the tradgedy with Jerry. How fast every went from start to finish and just how sudden it all was. I just found out that my brother had a moderately severe heart attack and that is rather scary. I don't know the full extent of the damage but is is significant. This may be the softening of his heart, the part that is left, to allow the Holy Spirit to work on him. He, like every other sinner, saved or un-saved needs our prayers. His name is John. Maryann.....IBC | ||
| Patti |
Would you have asked Ralph and Kenny about Christ if they were not reflecting their walk with Christ? In the first place, I would not have asked anyone anything. The Gospel comes to us; we do not come to the Gospel. The only way we can understand the Gospel is that the Holy Spirit reveals it to us. Additionally: 1 Samuel 16:7 The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." How am I to judge? I can only see what I see (generally I can only see what I am looking for.) How do I know if it is just a facade? We know nothing of what people are on the inside. But I do know that the hearts of all humans are evil continuously; we all continue to sin. The Pharisees were known for their righteousness, but Jesus called them "whitened sepulchres." This is why it is important, no, vital, to judge all things by the Gospel alone, to completely separate the grace (mercy) of God in saving undeserving humans from any outward acts of behavior. Would you have been intersted in their God it they had been just like the rest of the guys in their actions? Again, God comes to us in the Gospel. The Holy Spirit opens our ears to the Truth. If we are looking at human characters, we are not finding the Gospel anyway. God uses sinful humanity to spread the Word of His complete salvation in Jesus Christ. The Gospel is NOT about what happens IN us. The Gospel is not about changed characters; it is about forgiveness. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti again;-)) Again, thank you for your answers. I truly believe them to be from the depth of your heart and in honesty. I do not doubt your honesty in your stand;-)))))) However, even though you believe as I do, in the finished work of Christ in our salvation by grace alone; I HONESTLY believe you are denying the power of the one sent to us, the Holy Spirit. You said: <<In the first place, I would not have asked anyone anything. The Gospel comes to us; we do not come to the Gospel.>> God presented the GOSPEL to me in the form of Ralph and Kenny. I did HEAR the GOSPEL from them and that is an indisputable FACT. You said: <<1 Samuel 16:7 The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.">> That is so true! I am/was not God, therefore when God presented me with 2 Christians, I looked at the outside (as God says we do) and through that exposure to him, learned about the God I now serve. The God that saved me by GRACE ALONE! You said; <<Again, God comes to us in the Gospel. The Holy Spirit opens our ears to the Truth.>> Again, I will say, God sent me the GOSPEL through Ralph and Kenny. Praise God for His infinite wisdom of putting them in my life when I was receptive to the GOSPEL through their lips;-))! You said: <<The Gospel is not about changed characters; it is about forgiveness.>> How true!!!! If you had a million dollar mortage on your house and the mortage company FORGAVE, completely and forever the note, wouldn't your life change? Mine would! And my life did change with the complete and forever FORGIVENESS of my note/mortage of sin that I could never have paid off in even a minute fraction!!! IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Patti |
Maryann, I know that you think I am deluded and obsessed. (If indeed you think I am obsessed with the Gospel, then I thank you. I cannot think of a better obsession, personally.) I cannot say more than I have already. I have given much biblical support. I have asked for anyone to present textural support that the main work of the Holy Spirit is to change our hearts, which I haven't gotten. The walk of the Christian is one of faith. We trust in things we have no tangible evidence of. Too many Christians are demand that there must be tangible evidence, a "sign" of our salvation. Jesus says it is an evil and adulterous generation that demands a sign. Any focus on character regeneration removes our focus from Jesus Christ--it is that simple. If you are comfortable with your beliefs, then far be it from me to try to convince you otherwise. If you are uncomfortable with mine, let me ask you then: How can a person go wrong when preaching only the merits of Jesus Christ? How can we commit great injustice when we "determine to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified"? This was the message of the early Christians. Every time the NT speaks of someone being "filled with the Spirit" it is manifest in their telling others of the dead and risen Savior. At no time does it say that they were filled with the Holy Spirit and experienced great regeneration of their characters. At no time does it say that their witness is the work of Christ in them. No, it is the finished work of Jesus Christ for them and for all sinners who cling to His saving work as their only hope. Some people cannot live by faith. They want to have a "sign" to prove their salvation to themselves and to the world. But the Gospel is a message of faith; of living and trusting in things we have no tangible evidence of. Several of you have complained that I spend too much time on the Gospel. What else is there? If you are bored with the hearing of the marvelous saving work of Jesus Christ for us, then what can I say to make it more interesting for you? The Gospel is not flashy; it does not come with bells and whistles, but with a gentle and still small voice saying, "My grace is sufficient for you." If one is addicted to excitement, looking for signs and wonders or a continual spiritual "high," then one will not be satisfied with the Gospel. The real disappointment for me on this forum is that I am met with the same attitude concerning the Gospel as I faced in the SDA church--a "Yes, but.." attitude. "Yes, we all know that Jesus died for our sin, but..." and then the various statements of some further or "greater" message than that of being accepted by the Father for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. What difference can I make? Can I present it better? Of course I could, but still no one will be convinced until the Holy Spirit reveals it to him/her. I can only keep on, in my most bumbling way, that Christ is enough. The historic, finished, once-fall work of Jesus Christ is the Gospel; and it is everything. The Gospel is not about what happens in us; it is about what Jesus Christ has accomplished once and for all. To Him be all glory forever. | ||
| Patti |
^^If we claim that our witness is our "changed lives," then who among us has a faultless witness?^^ Since no one on this website has claimed that, your question is hypothetical and moot. Max, these are YOUR words: It was, rather, the TRANSFORMED lives of these people who testified to the cross. Never! It was Paul's NON-blaspheming, NON-persecuting, NON-violent CHANGED character that testified -- not to his own righteousness -- but that of his Lord alone. | ||
| Patti |
Hi, BMorgan! Thank you so much for posting! Your words are a blessing to me. Thank you for being patient with one who talks too much. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Patti |
Maryann: I HONESTLY believe you are denying the power of the one sent to us, the Holy Spirit. Just wondering. Maybe you can help me out. Can you give me some NT texts that indicate that the "power" of the Holy Spirit is that which enables us to conquer sin in our lives? | ||
| Patti |
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Not all that glitters is gold; not all that sounds holy and pious is Gospel. We must test all things, "to the law and to the testimony." The gospel of the Roman Church "seems" right. It only makes sense that the Gospel would not be complete without changing our characters and making us righteous here and now. But the Gospel is foolishness to those who have not been enlightened by the Holy Spirit. Because the Gospel, Christianity, is the only religious message in the world that offers salvation as a completely free gift, given to hopeless sinners who throw themselves on God's mercy. It is the only message that is not about the believer in any way or shape or form; but about the saving act of Another, the obedience of One, even unto death, by which we are reconciled to God. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, You said: <<I know that you think I am deluded and obsessed. (If indeed you think I am obsessed with the Gospel, then I thank you. I cannot think of a better obsession, personally.)>> I agree, there can be nothing better than to be "obsessed" with the gospel. It is that I believe that you deny the Holy Spirit's work here in this earthly kingdom of God within us. Don't be afraid to let the Holy Spirit finish the work that He has begun in you! NOT TO BE SAVE, BUT, BECAUSE YOU ARE SAVED! In my own mingling with people, I don't say, "Hey, look at me and how good I am!" I hope you don't think that would be a focus of mine!;-)) It is here, on this board, when I perceive you to say that the lives that Ralph and Kenny were not of value to my, "getting to Christ," that I get excited. If you would acknowledge that through the planning and arrainging of the Holy Spirit, those two men witnessed to me FIRST in action, quietly with NOT A WORD, then SECONDLY, with their mouths after I asked them.......they shared the love of God verbally and the salvation by GRACE ALONE; there would probably be no disagreement on this subject. I can guarentee you that I'm NOT THE LONE RANGER!! Many have seen the work of Christ in other's in the same way that I saw it in Ralph and Kenny and are now citizens of the kingdom of God. I have to go and have some laser surgery on my tongue today :,,,-((and wont be back here for a while. I will address a couple of your above questions tomorrow most likely if I feel like it;-)) I'm looking forward to it and I wish I knew what the questions you asked me several months ago were? Never re-found them;-(( Thank you, again for responding!;-)) Are there any of you many people that are reading this Forum that would like to chime in on this or any other subject? You will be totally anonymous if you should want it that way;-)))) IBC | ||
| Patti |
Don't be afraid to let the Holy Spirit finish the work that He has begun in you! Can you give me a scripture that tells me that a person who believes in Jesus Christ is not fully sanctified? That he is lacking in something spiritual? Additionally, I find no scriptural basis for the notion that the main role of the Holy Spirit is to change our hearts and lives. Most of the references to the gift of the Spirit are concerning the ability to understand the Gospel and to tell others: 1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Our spiritual regeneration is not something that we look forward to, it is not something that we "grow into." When we believe in the Gospel, we are at once justified, sanctified, and glorified. 1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Our sanctification by the Holy Spirit (being set apart for a holy purpose) was accomplished when we believed. In the chapter in which Paul outlines spiritual gifts, regenerated character, changed life, is not even listed! 1 Cor. 12:1 Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. The Spirit is given to us upon believing as a guarantee, an assurance that He will keep us faithful (full of faith) until that day: 2 Cor 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. 22 He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Far from rejoicing in our changed lives, we groan with great longing to physically experience what we possess now only by faith, to be clothed with Christ's righteousness in reality. 2 Cor. 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. That righteousness is the obedience of the One, the perfect life of Jesus Christ, imputed to those who believe in Him, imparted to us in reality when "this corruptible puts on incorruption." It is all about Christ. He alone is worthy. | ||
| Valm |
Dear Patti, I have to be honest, I grow increasingly frustrated with your condescending atitude towards others opinion. Twice recently you have asked Max if he was still an SDA. There was another incident where you seemed to be accusing others of the same behavior I have seen you do. You comment that it is us that are tired of hearing the Gospel message as if you have all of the answers. I will not deny that I have learned some good things from your posts. But it is continually harder for me to read them when I view this mean spiritedness when people do not flock in agreement with your ideas. My Dad is much like this with his SDAism. If you don't believe or think like he does, well you are just wrong, as HE has the gospel message. He believes HIS is the coreect and only interpretaion of this message. He comes only to teach not to learn. Some of the same things you say and quote are similar to what he says and quotes. The only difference is in the application. Yours to your beliefs and his to his. Once again you have good points and bring balance. But if I were to listen to your points in entirity, I would have to cut out or rewrite a great portion of the Bible. I once asked you your take on certain texts which directly say we must take actions to discontinue sinning and got no response. They are clearly there and are almost always there after a message of Christ's grace being sufficient for us. IT IS BECAUSE WE WILL NEVER BE PERFECT IN THIS LIFE. But that does not give us license to wallow in the cesspool of sin. And there is the unmistaken enregy surrounding those people who are connected to God in a specialy way. It does not mean that we look to them. They will certainly fail. But I thank God that there lives have pointed me and others to Christ. Valerie | ||
| Patti |
I have to be honest, I grow increasingly frustrated with your condescending atitude towards others opinion. I am sorry if I have come across as arrogant. It was not intentional. However, I believe that often when people are confronted by facts that they do not wish to hear and cannot answer with support, they lash out at the messenger instead of evaluating the messages. I am not saying that you are doing this, but this is what I have experienced with the SDAs, and others who want to believe that their lives reflect the perfection of Jesus Christ. I have tried to take a very straight-forward tone, in spite of being accused of denying the work of the Holy Spirit and various other things. It is quite OK, because I understand. Before the Gospel was revealed to me, I really thought that my life should be a strong witness for the Lord and would judge the lives of those who spoke of spiritual matters. Then I was confronted by His pure righteousness and now I know that nothing that I do, including trying to spread His Gospel, is without the taint of sin and selfishness. Twice recently you have asked Max if he was still an SDA. That is because he is preaching the same gospel. Besides, is that such a horrible thing, to be SDA, that is? You act like it is an accusation. That is one thing that frustrates me about this board--it is OK to criticize SDAs thoroughly, but the beliefs of everyone else are off limits. I will not deny that I have learned some good things from your posts. But it is continually harder for me to read them when I view this mean spiritedness when people do not flock in agreement with your ideas. Mean-spiritedness is in the eye of the beholder. (Just curious: Can one call someone mean-spirited in a spirit of love? J JK) I have tried to be very matter-of-fact, but how does one "lovingly" disagree? Feelings get hurt (because we are self-centered) no matter how "gently" one tries to say things. Which is yet another reason I am grateful that our salvation is of Jesus Christ alone, and has nothing to do with the state of our characters. My Dad is much like this with his SDAism. If you don't believe or think like he does, well you are just wrong, as HE has the gospel message. He believes HIS is the coreect and only interpretaion of this message. He comes only to teach not to learn. Some of the same things you say and quote are similar to what he says and quotes. The only difference is in the application. Yours to your beliefs and his to his. Well, I will stake my eternal destiny on the fact that Jesus Christ is worthy. That His grace is sufficient. Can't think of a better place to stand! J And I will be vocal when I hear people trying to supplant Christ's righteousness with our own character regeneration or claiming that His grace is not truly sufficient, that our salvation depends at least in part upon our own Christian living. Once again you have good points and bring balance. But if I were to listen to your points in entirity, I would have to cut out or rewrite a great portion of the Bible. To be honest, that is exactly what we could do if we wished. However, the parts fit together. The Bible is divided (not equally) into 2 parts: law and grace. Law never saved anyone, but it does serve a vital role in that it (with the help of the Holy Spirit) convicts us of our immense sinfulness and drives us to Jesus for mercy and forgiveness. Grace saves. Some books are all law (Proverbs, James); some are all grace (John, Romans, Galatians); but most contain some of both. It is by grace that we are saved; it is grace that is our message to a dying world. Grace, God's infinite mercy in forgiving undeserving humanity. I once asked you your take on certain texts which directly say we must take actions to discontinue sinning and got no response. I am sorry. I have been quite busy and out of town a lot the past 3 months. I must have missed them. They are clearly there and are almost always there after a message of Christ's grace being sufficient for us. IT IS BECAUSE WE WILL NEVER BE PERFECT IN THIS LIFE. But that does not give us license to wallow in the cesspool of sin. But we have no choice BUT to "wallow in the cesspool of sin" because our flesh is PERMEATED with sin, through and through. The only righteousness we can ever experience is by faith alone. It is the perfect obedience of One Man, Jesus Christ, that the only righteousness that we can attain (again, by faith) in this life. And there is the unmistaken enregy surrounding those people who are connected to God in a specialy way. This sounds almost metaphysical, mystical, like the Catholics. We humans observe things with our human eyes and intellect; but faith is believing in things that we cannot observe. (Hebrews 11:1) If we are looking for physical confirmation of our faith, then we, like the Pharisees who demanded a sign from Jesus that He was the Savior, are an evil and adulterous generation. It is like Rayna said the other day: If it is in us, if we can experience it tangibly, then it is not of faith; and, anything that is not of faith, is sin. Salvation is not about experience. It is about faith. It does not mean that we look to them. They will certainly fail. Then I am not sure exactly what your point is. You are impressed by an aura that you know will fail? The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about "feeling"; it is about knowing. I know Christ is worthy; and because He is worthy, God will accept me for His sake. I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I committed unto Him against that day. But I thank God that there lives have pointed me and others to Christ. As I have said many times on here, God uses sinful flesh. "Faith comes of hearing..." When we point others to Jesus and to Him only, then we need not worry that our lives are not what they should be (Whose is???). We direct their attention to the cross of Jesus Christ, to His saving act for them, to His perfect life which is imputed to all who believe in Him. To Christ, and to Christ only, be all honor and glory and praise forever. | ||
| Valm |
Dear Patti, I have a hard time believing your arrogance is unintentional as you went right back into doing it. You say that we who disagree can not come to you with support and I have seen much Biblical support for these matters given to you and you just ignore it. Your comment "Before the Gospel was revealed to me" sounds straight out of a testimony from EGW herself. Who do you think you are to have any more of a revelation than the others on this line. And touchee on your mean spirited comment. However, yes I do think I can tell someone in love what their behavior is. I am talking about your behavior not you. Whether you believe it or not, I believe you type of behavior destroys instead of builds. It causes division and strife instead of supporting one another. I lived with this many years with my nuclear family. And I won't do it anymore. If you wish to discuss scriptures, I wished you would do it with the same respectful attitude towards others as you wish others to have towards you. | ||
| Maryann |
I'll make this short as I don't feel good from the laser work on my tongue. I was looking at my mail to see if there was any word from my brother that had a heart attack and had to stop and peek at the Forum as usual. This is the thought that occured to me: Posting on this Forum is like picking your nose in a room with ONE WAY glass! You don't realize it, but many people are watching and you don't have a clue!! I would caution everyone that post's on this or any other Forum that the little screen you are looking at is just like that ONE WAY glass. So don't pick your nose unless you want the world to see you do it;-)) | ||
| Valm |
Maryann, I have not heard it articulated any better than that! Valerie PS I sincerely hope and pray your brother will be OK. I know what you are going through, went through it with my Father last summer. | ||
| Patti |
I have a hard time believing your arrogance is unintentional as you went right back into doing it. You say that we who disagree can not come to you with support and I have seen much Biblical support for these matters given to you and you just ignore it. Two things come to mind: 1. Is it possible that "arrogance" is in the eye of the beholder? I state my beliefs positively, because I positively believe that Jesus Christ is my full salvation. Is that arrogance? Or is it arrogance for me to disagree with others? If so, then I am not the only arrogant one on here. Again I apologize if I seem condescending to you. I don't know how to state what I believe except in definite terms. 2. If I seem to "ignore" some stuff, there is generally a reason for it. Either I feel that any response would be self-evident, or we have gone over that road before, or (more often than not) I have missed the conversation entirely. Things move very fast here, and I don't catch them all. Your comment "Before the Gospel was revealed to me" sounds straight out of a testimony from EGW herself. Would you prefer, "before I found the Gospel"? I could say that, but it would not be accurate. Because I was not looking for the Gospel. I am not quite sure why you find it arrogant; for me it was humbling--God sought me out when I had little interest in finding Him. Who do you think you are to have any more of a revelation than the others on this line. Now, Valerie, don't you think that is a little harsh. Have I ever said that others have not heard the Gospel? The only way anyone ever understands the Gospel is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe this? Also, truly understanding of the Gospel does not come all at once for many. For me it took years before I was truly convinced that Jesus Christ was my full salvation; that nothing I did could affect it one way or another. Because the Gospel is all about Him; not about me. And touchee on your mean spirited comment. However, yes I do think I can tell someone in love what their behavior is. I am talking about your behavior not you. Actually, "mean-spirited" is a discription of one's character, I would say. And yes, sometimes I am mean-spirited; other times people just assume that I am, which takes me by surprise. But nonetheless, "mean-spirited" is also in the eye of the beholder. If I don't like what you are saying, I may very well think of you as mean-spirited, even when what is being said has nothing to do with me personally, and even when your intentions were only the best. Whether you believe it or not, I believe you type of behavior destroys instead of builds. It causes division and strife instead of supporting one another. Could you be specific about "my behavior"? Can you tell me specifically what I did that offended you so greatly so that I can avoid it next time? Was it in defending my beliefs? If so, do you think I should not defend my beliefs if it offends someone else? Please, tell me what to do. Tell me how to defend my beliefs without offending you. I lived with this many years with my nuclear family. And I won't do it anymore. If you wish to discuss scriptures, I wished you would do it with the same respectful attitude towards others as you wish others to have towards you. You mean, such as telling me I deny the work of the Holy Spirit? Or that I am mean-spirited, arrogant, and condescending? C'mon, Val. We are all human. We are all Christians, and it is our duty to forgive. I am sorry if you do not like my words, but, the best way to deal with conflict is to address issues and not personalities. I have been addressing issues. I have been supporting them with Scripture. If I made personal comments about someone's character (I don't remember doing it, if indeed I did) then tell me exactly what I said, and I will do my best to make reparations. But I will not back down from my position that salvation comes of Jesus Christ alone, that our perfect witness is to the doing and dying of Jesus Christ and to nothing inside of us. I find this to be wonderfully good news. Evidently others on here do not. I am sorry. I wish I could say things in the right manner to make people excited about the saving grace of God for the sake of Jesus Christ. But I cannot. Only the Holy Spirit can. And I pray that He falls on you, on me, on all of us here today, with full measure, pressed down, and overflowing. The Gospel is about Jesus. Jesus is ENOUGH. To Him, and to Him only, be honor and glory and praise forever. | ||
| Valm |
Patti, I am too exhausted to keep doing this. I come to this line to find support and to give support and lately I find religious sparring. No I do not think I am being too harsh. I have been patient and kept my peace plenty. I lived many a years with spiritual abuse and now I feel the same way here. My parents have reenlightenment every year or two. Albeit theirs is in the direction of works, the MO is the same. God has revealed to them...... And therefore, if others around them do not agree with them or are not excited with them, those people are rejecting the "truth". They also speak of a gradual process that things do not come all at once for many; and as they do it they imply that they are spiritually a bit ahead of the rest. They also use the whole MO that they must defend their beliefs even if it offends others. I call it as I see it, they are just setting up the "persecution" defense for bad behavior on their part. I can not take the time to go through all of your posts Patti. But I can respond to what in this last one makes me on edge including what I said in the above paragraph. You said, "any response would be self-evident" I hear I won't respond to something that is so obvious, are you that simple minded not to know the answer to that one? You speak of the revelation of the Gospel by the Holy Spirit. Yet I am convinced that the Holy Spirit has convinced me of matters in which we disagree with. So who's right here? It seems to me that in conversing with you, you seem to think your revelation takes precendence over every one elses. You asked if you have ever said that others have not heard the Gospel. And I say yes I have heard you say that in many different ways on this and other posts. Just by asking Max if he is still and SDA and then explaining why the SDAs haven't accepted the gospel you have done so. Once you told me "if we can not agree about the Gospel, we can not agree about anything." I found the tone of this statement very hurtful. I hear, if you can not agree with me, I have no more to say to you. My parents did this to my aunt when she left SDAism. My parents pretty much told her that there was no point in communicating as they had nothing to talk about. How hurtful that is to me and when I heard you say that, I felt that hurt all over again. Finally, you say that you wish you could say something to make people excited about the saving Grace of Christ. First you can not make people feel or do anything. This is control. Secondly, many people on this line are excited about the saving grace of Christ. They may not agree with you but nonetheless they are very excited. And that excitement is unvlaidated in that comment. I hear that unless I believe the way you do, I am not excited about the Grace of Christ and I have not heard the gospel message. I do not know if this will make any sense to you at all. I fell like when I enter a conversation with you my beliefs are trampled upon and regarded as less than yours. I must go. I have spent too much time on this today. It is draining me and not uplifting to us or anyone else. I have a family to care for and responsibilities in the non cyber world. For myself, I can not continue to spend time here if what I come to is argumentive and disrespectful. If I truly felt I could carry it out, I would give my notice also. But I am hopeful that the tone of discussion will become more functional than what I have seen lately. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, You mentioned above: <<You mean, such as telling me I deny the work of the Holy Spirit?>> That is in reference to the several times that I told you that I believed that you were doing that, wasn't it? I never felt that YOU took it as mean-spirited on my part??! And it was NEVER intended as demeaning. It was simply my observation, NOT and insult! Just want to make sure we are on the same page! (actually, no pun was intended there;-)) PLEASE let me know if you feel "personally" insulted or attacked by my post's. There has been sandpaper at other times with others and me too. I trust that we will continue to leave that as history. I am enjoying our discussion. IBC |
