| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
I don't know if these Scriptures will help out in this discussion. But I do pray that all will consider them in their hearts tonight. Titus 3:5-9 "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, decieved and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, So that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone." God Bless us all reading and posting, Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Here's some more Scripture. Titus 2:9-10 "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, And not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, SO THAT IN EVERY WAY THEY WILL MAKE THE TEACHING ABOUT GOD OUR SAVIOR ATTRACTIVE." Blessings to all in our Lord Jesus, DtB | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Maryann, That is in reference to the several times that I told you that I believed that you were doing that, wasn't it Yup! And that is OK. I understand where you think I fall short. And I addressed this to you personally. No matter, though, because I am determined to present the Gospel and the Gospel only. People who get tired of hearing it can not read me. Or if Colleen and Richard think that I am too focused on our salvation in Jesus Christ, they can ban me. It doesn't matter. The Gospel is all-consuming; I must tell it. PLEASE let me know if you feel "personally" insulted or attacked by my post's. There has been sandpaper at other times with others and me too. I trust that we will continue to leave that as history. I am enjoying our discussion. Maryann, you do not make me feel personally attacked. You are one person who seems to be able to separate issues from personalities. (In fact, sometimes I think you like things to be a bit spicy here! J) You don't hesitate to tell me you think I am missing something, just as I don't hesitate to tell you that I think you are missing a point. I have found that telling the Gospel always stirs up animosity, especially among Christians who believe that their lives reflect Jesus Christ. If people do not want to let go of their "control" over their own destiny, if they want to maintain that they are still at least partially responsible for their own salvation, either by responding or enduring or persisting or reflecting Jesus, then they do not want to hear that we are totally dependent upon the grace of God. Salvation is God's work from first to last: Jesus completed a perfect work, God gives us the ability to believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit inspires us to tell others. The Gospel is a very ego-deflating message for the unconverted, and many just do not want to hear it. But we are promised this in Scripture. We are promised that we will suffer for the sake of the Gospel, because people do not want to hear it. They do not want to hear that we got something purely gratuitously (acceptance with God) when they think they are working on it and growing into it. This is what caused the great ire of the RCC in medieval times: when the Gospel comes into the picture, people lose their control over other people. We are not accountable to anyone but God. We are not under guilt, and we cannot be manipulated. This provokes anger to the point of homicide (like Rayna pointed out with the passage about Stephen--How DARE he be so confident that God was with Him! How DARE he claim that he could see things that others could not! He saw into heaven itself, seeing His Lord and Savior standing at the right hand of the Father! The arrogance! The condescension!). Thus the widespread persecution by the Jews in the first century and by the medieval church during the Reformation. And, so, Maryann, you have claimed that I focused too much on the Gospel. Thank you! If only that were true. You said I denied the power of the Holy Spirit, but, as I have pointed out scripturally in this thread and in the thread on the Holy Spirit, the main work of the Holy Spirit in us is to inspire us to "testify of Jesus." There are very few passages (if any) that specifically say that the work of the Holy Spirit in us was to change our hearts and make us holy' there are dozens that say that when the Holy Spirit comes to us He will testify of Jesus, that those filled with the Spirit told others of our dead and risen Savior. So, you see, the Gospel is not about us. It is about God, condescending to this earth, cloaking His glory in our human flesh, perfectly fulfilling all of the law, taking upon Himself the sin of the world, laying down His life, rising again, and ascending into heaven with fanfare, glory and majesty. All of this is ours by faith. His perfect obedience is imputed to our sinful lives, His death atones for all of our sin, His resurrection and ascension to the throne of Majesty is our assurance that we are accepted with God because Jesus Christ was found to be worthy of all honor and glory and blessing. His work is finished, (which is what the SDAs cannot believe, which is the main flaw in their IJ theory.) It cannot be replicated, duplicated, copied, or emulated. His work is once-for-all. There is nothing positive we can add to it. As for changed lives, if we think that our lives are becoming more and more Christ-like, then let me suggest that we need a clearer vision of the perfection of Jesus Christ. This is what the Sermon on the Mount is about. If we think we are doing OK with our "righteousness," then we need to pick up our Bibles and read Matthew 5-7 very closely. If we think we are "loving each other as Christ loved us," then we need to learn more about Jesus Christ and the magnitude of His saving work for mankind. In other words, we need a good dose of law to bring us back to the point that we see ourselves as hopeless sinners, dependent only upon the mercy of God in forgiving us. No, it is not a popular teaching. People do not want to hear that everything they do is as dung to God. But this is the only way we can realize our unworthiness, our helplessness, and our dependence upon the mercy of God. Always. We never outgrow our total dependence upon forgiveness as long as we dwell in this body of death. Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. Today, although the Great Sacrifice has been offered once for all, we still remain in our sinful flesh. It is important that we have not been cleansed in reality, because if we had been, we would no longer feel guilty for our sins. If we do not feel guilty, if we are not convicted of our sinfulness, then we would feel no need of the Savior. This is perpetual. As long as we live on this earth we will rue our sinfulness and will be forced to cling to the promise of forgiveness and acceptance in Jesus Christ. If we ever feel that we are being "cleansed," "perfected," "made righteous" in ourselves, we will feel less dependence upon the work of Jesus Christ, less gratitude for our salvation, less need for His saving grace. The Holy Spirit is the One Who convicts us of our sinfulness, Who gives us faith, Who keeps our faith focused on our perfect salvation--Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. Do I deny the work of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely not; it is vital to our salvation. I just do not believe that the Bible defines it the way that most Christians do. The main role of the Holy Spirit is to lead us to Christ. Or for those Whom the Gospel has found, to testify of our great salvation in Jesus Christ, as well as to keep in front of their minds the fact that they are sinful and unworthy and totally dependent upon the mercy of God in Jesus Christ. Sorry I went on so long... I didn't intend to. May the grace of God in Jesus Christ be revealed to all of us anew today and every day. To Him alone be all glory and praise forever. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Denise, Thank you for those wonderful texts. I've really been working on understanding some of the NT's more direct statements about obedience and behavior and not falling away. Hebrews has many of them; so does 1 Corinthians, James, Romans--actually, they're sprinkled liberally throughout! Monday night I had some enlightenment when I went to our women's Bible study leader's meeting with Elizabeth Inrig. (We're studying 1 Corinthians.) She explained that in any local church, you will find three types of people: non-believers (some of whom may profess belief but have never received Christ), "Spirit people" who have accepted Christ and are living by the power of the Holy Spirit, and Carnal believers who have accepted Christ but refuse to mature. They are saved--they accept Christ--but they continue to live by works of the flesh. The enigmatic passage in 1 Corinthians 3 about our works being either of gold, silver, or precious stones or of wood, hay, and stubble which will burn though we ourselves will be saved as one escaping through the flames, refers, she says, to works of the Spirit or works of the flesh. If a body of believers is dominated by Christ-followers who are accepting the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives and allowing Christ to transform them by the truth, the church will be marked by unity, grace, mutual building, support, honesty, etc. If a body of believers is dominated by Christians who are immature (exactly the kinds of Christians to whom Paul addressed his Corinthian letters), their "fellowship" will be marred by jealousy, divisions, class-ism, and other sins. Look through 1 Corinthians and see the types of issues Paul addresses: adultery, incest, following human leaders, quarreling, disrespecting communion, etc. Yet he addresses them as "those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together wi all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ." (v. 2) Paul further confirms their status in Christ by saying, "Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldlyómere infants in Christ." (3:1) They are saved, but they are behaving badly, and Paul is exhorting them to quit fighting, to quit aligning themselves with human leaders, to discipline the immoral brothers, to respect their marriages, to leave ungodly behavior behind and grow up in Christ. All true believers have the Holy Spirit as the seal of their salvation, but some don't drink from the fountain of God's love and power that is in them. No Christ-follower can clean up his or her behavior. Only by the Holy Spirit pointing out our flaws and only by our responding by giving to God those intractable temptations can these changes occur. But Paul makes it very clear that these changes not only can occur, but that they should. If they do no occur, the people are still saved. But in the judgment, their works will be burned up while they are saved as through the flames. (I Cor. 3:12-15) If a person does allow the Holy Spirit to work through him or her, however, his "building" will survive along with the person. If a person allows the Holy Spirit to influence them to gradually give up their weaknesses to God, trusting him to cleanse them by whatever means necessary, they will begin to behave with the grace of Jesus in the lives of others. It's risky, though, allowing Jesus to have us completely, because He disciplines those he loves. His purifying love will take us through painful "deaths to self" that will result in our falling more deeply and trustingly in love with him. But his grace is enough! By his grace he has saved us; by his grace he gives us His Spirit; by his grace he renews our hearts and minds; by his grace he changes us! Praise God for loving us--whether we are "mere infants in Christ" or are becoming mature. In His Grace, Colleen | ||
| Patti |
I am just wondering, perhaps someone can answer and offer some biblical support for conclusions: Is there a hierarchy of Christians? Are some Christians more "Christian" than others? Are some more saved, some more spiritual? Are there degrees of acceptance with God? Are there degrees of our state of conversion? Can we be partially saved? | ||
| Colleentinker |
No, Patti, there's no heirarchy of Christians. None are more saved than others. But 1 Corinthians does say that the "buildings" of some will survive, and the "buildings" of others will be burned. And that has nothing to do with one's salvation or state before God. If a person accepts Christ, he is saved. How he lives after that is another subject, and, apparently, how he lives will have some sort of affect, either positive or negative, on those around him. None of this is to say that SALVATION is in question. But, if Paul can be believed in 1 Corinthians and in Hebrews and in Ephesians, etc., as Christ-followers we are called to live Godly lives. Paul does not say that a true Christ-follower will fall out of salvation or lose his standing before God if he fails to live a godly life. But he does insist that we treat each other with mutual submission. The only way it's possible to treat each other with mutual submission and to love each other as Christ loved us is by allowing the grace of Jesus indwelling us by the power of the Holy Spirit to function in our hearts and to give us hearts of flesh instead of hearts of stone. Salvation is not in question. A Christian is a Christian. But there are mature ones, and there are immature ones. The Bible calls us to become mature, not to ensure salvation, but to be able to enjoy Jesus' promise of the abundant life. It's not about us; we don't have to try hard and be good. We just have to nurture our relationship with Jesus, surrender our pride and fears and egos and shame to him as he reveals them to us, and he does the work. Praise God for saving us in our sins and growing us in him as long as we live! Colleen | ||
| Patti |
Just wondering: What higher spiritual experience can a believer have than being saved, than knowing that God has forgiven us and accepted us for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, If you are wondering why I'm using the NKJ? It is because that is all I could find. My NIV CD is buried. Do you know where the Bible is online that I can download? Anyway, you asked is any of the following were true: <<Is there a hierarchy of Christians? Are some Christians more "Christian" than others? Are some more saved, some more spiritual? Are there degrees of acceptance with God? Are there degrees of our state of conversion? Can we be partially saved?>> My answer is an emphatic and noisy;-))...NO! EXCEPT to whether "some [are] more spiriual." My answer is an emphatic and noisy;-))...YES! Here are my Biblical grounds: 1 Cor 3:1-3 <<1..And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2..I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3..for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?>> New King James Version And: Gal 6:1 <<1..Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.>> New King James Version 1 Cor. is obviously talking to Christians. They are baby Christians still on the bottle. They are "still" carnal. (Paul likens carnality to being a babe in Christ.) He also says there is envy and striff among them and they are walking as mere men. He is giving these lazy, fat on the bottle Christians a real "posterior chewing" to wake them up and smell the roast beef. Now consider Galations 6. Paul is telling those that are spiritual to restore those that are "overtaken" in any trespass with gentleness and to be careful lest they too be tempted and be overtaken. Meaning those that were trespassing, were "overtaken" Christians that "messed up." And restore means to "put back as it was before," meaning they used to be spiritual. So it is very clear that some Christians are spiritual and some aren't. And the spiritual-ness Paul is talking about has to do with their outward behavior seen by men. Please notice, these are the AD/NT times. So as to NOT have any mis-understanding; spiritual-ness has nothing to do with the salvation issue. (Accordong to the above verses.) Interested in your reply. IBC | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Maryann, Check out this Bible link. I like it especially because it is very fast: Bible Gateway It has the NIV, my personal favorite. I don't read the text you gave me the same way you do. In the first place, there was a specific problem at Corinth. Paul speaks to them quite differently from the Romans or the Ephesians or the Galatians. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way--in all your speaking and in all your knowledge-- 6 because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. These are people who knew the Gospel, but were splitting off into factions. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. Paul was addressing a specific problem with the Corinthians. They were following human leaders and, evidently, bragging about it. 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." Chapter Two: 1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. In this chapter, Paul differentiates between the wisdom of the world and God's wisdom. He emphasizes that human wisdom can never replace being taught by the Spirit. Chapter Three: 1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. Notice Paul is very specific about the divisions in the church at Corinth. This is not speaking of just generally getting along with each other: This is speaking of the breaking of the church into factions, following individuals instead of following Christ alone. Evidently, they were still quite "worldly," and "unspiritual" because they did not truly believe that Jesus Christ was the Gospel in toto. 10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. Here is the crux of the matter. Evidently the Corinthians were developing divergent doctrine as they claimed to follow several different leaders. Paul makes it very clear that there is only one foundation, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. SSo, although he refers to them as babes in Christ, these people were not well-founded in the GGospel. Elsewise, they would not be running off after different teachers, each claiming that their teacher had more "truth" than the other. This book could very well be written to the Christian churches in America. How we love to follow around after charismatic leaders in this country? How many different Christian denominations do we have now? About 300??? Ludicrous! But nowhere do I see, as you do, that there is a hierarchy in Christians in this passage. This church had a serious problem, which Paul addresses, just as he scathingly scolds the Galatians for trying to hold the Gentiles to the observance of the Mosaic laws. I hope this made some kind of sense. I am very tired tonight, so I am going to retire. I will look at this again in the morning and try to tie together any stray thoughts. In the meantime, may the grace of God in Jesus Christ be revealed to us all anew and with greater conviction daily. Patti PS Please tell George that I am thinking of him, missing his fellowship. | ||
| Patti |
Message from Pat Mom tried several times to post this today, but something is screwy and she wasn't able to. So, I, being the wonderful daughter that I am  , offered to post it for her: I've been away a quite a while. In reading through some of these discussion topics, playing catch-up, it truly does seem that there is more "I", "me", and "you" in these discussions than there is of Jesus as our only hope, our righteousness, our perfection, our salvation. Have we as ex-SDAs come full circle? Did we not leave the church because of its promotion of *our* works? So did we only glance at the cross of Jesus and the perfection, completeness, total salvation accomplished there, then turn our backs and rush off to *work* on our "perfection", just as we did as SDAs? Paul is clear: Jesus came to save sinners, of whom," he says, "I am [present tense] chief." And doesn't he say that he boasts ONLY in the cross of Christ? Is there solid Scripture for an actual, physical, "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit in us? While in some very important sense the Holy Spirits works in our lives, we are on very dangerous ground when we confuse the work of the Holy Spirit with deification of the individual. The Holy Spirit works with the believer, but does not *become* the believer. He does not *become* human, nor does the human *become* deity. "Our God is a consuming fire." If we were truly attached to the Holy Spirit, either He must participate in our evil nature, or we must be perfect - have that "holy flesh" which our SDA forefathers claimed at times. Which is it? If we have sin in our lives, which all of us do have, then we should be consumed, yes? So we must take another look at the work of God in our lives. Geoffrey Paxton states in "The Shaking of Adventism: "The idea that grace is the assistance God gives the believer in keeping the law was shunned by the Reformers as being the Roman Catholic teaching which only detracts from the glory of Christ and disturbs consciences. No, saving grace is God's saving action in JESUS CHRIST. CHRIST is the righteousness by which we are justified, and CHRIST is the expression of the grace of the Father. "The Reformers also stressed Christ alone over and against all who would point to the inside of the believer as the PLACE whe | ||
| Patti |
Oops! Part of it got cut off somehow...strange.... Here is the last paragraph: "The Reformers also stressed Christ alone over and against all who would point to the inside of the believer as the PLACE where justifying righteousness dwells. Christ alone means literally Christ ALONE, and not the believer. And for that matter, it does not even mean any other member of the Trinity!" Something for us to think about. Pat | ||
| Denisegilmore |
1 Corinthians 1:18 Patti, The word 'power' in this text is 'dunamis' in the greek. The Power of the Gospel. Wonderful news! Now isn't this 'power,' the Holy Spirit in us? God Bless, Denise, the berean | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Thank you for the link. I'll look at it tomorrow. "Elsewise" what a wonderful word!;-)) Well, I still see the way I saw it earlier;-)) I figger that a babe is a babe, carnal is carnal, spiritual is spiritual, un-spiritual is un-spiritual, whether it is in an individual of what ever town or if it is a gathering/Church in any one of those towns. What is a church made up of if it isn't people? Yes, it is rather ludicrious to have so many different churches and they all/most claim, "we are the ONES!" I DON'T think there is a hierarchy! There is a babe and there is mature. Reams of paper ago, I think you said that I thought you were obsessed with the gospel. I think it was you that said that and I said it was great, just don't deny the Holy Spirit's work;-)) I'm tired too! IBC | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Pat, Good to see you show up;-)) You said: <<In reading through some of these discussion topics, playing catch-up, it truly does seem that there is more "I", "me", and "you" in these discussions than there is of Jesus as our only hope, our righteousness, our perfection, our salvation.>> You know, you are right, you do see that lately. As a matter of fact though, if you notice; that comes up considerably more when Patti is here regularly. Atleast, speaking for myself, I will defend my understanding of the Bible to say that "I", "me", and "you" are important as a "1st line of witness" when you are at work for instance. As Patti and have talked, I make no bones that I believe that she is denying the Holy Spirit and she is sure I am denying the gospel. I guess we are still friends;-)) so, I guess we will continue;-)) I will ask you: Had Ralph and Kenny NOT been living a Christian life, would I have asked them about Christ? No!! The fact is: Ralph and Kenny DID live christian lives and I did follow the Holy Spirits promptings any asked them some personal questions, then asked them about Christ! I got the gospel loud and clear from both of them. I would NOT have been interested if they had not been modeling christlike or Christian behavior. An un-believer is NOT going to ask like you or I would ask, does that line up with scripture? They may not ever have cracked open a Bible! Their first introduction to Christ may be "YOU" and "YOU" have an awesome responsibility to represent "HIM" in a manner so as "NOT" to shame "HIS" name. How you or Patti can mis-read this very post into thinking I say that our deeds have anything to do with our salvation is beyond me???? Anyway;-)) I'm looking forward to your response. You can e-write me too, if you like at: christyoureternallife@hotmail.com IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Colleentinker |
I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about being saved and then having the Holy Spirit help me keep the law. I'm also not talking about holy flesh. I'm just grateful beyond belief that when we are saved by the grace of God, we are never the same again. Sinful flesh and all, we are brought to life spiritually and connected to God by the Holy Spirit. We're no longer dead; we're alive, and that means we are new people! Jesus told Nicodemus that no one can enter the kingdom of Heaven unless he is born again. We have to accept Jesus to receive our eternal life, and that eternal life--the spiritual life the Holy Spirit confirms in us--is not the same as our natural life we were born into. We are saved in our sins. Our sinful flesh never leaves us until our death or Jesus' second coming. But we are new creatures, and the life we live now, we live to God, not to ourselves. We will always commit sins. But we will also grow in Christ. It's not about our works; it's always about Jesus. Discovering Jesus' grace and knowing I am saved is the most wonderful thing that's ever happened to me. But I can honestly say that living with Jesus on a personal, daily basis through the promptings of the Holy Spirit has completely changed the quality of my life. I've always been high-strung and nervous. I still am, actually, but as I have gradually turned over various parts of my life to Jesus, including my overwhelming schedule, I've actually found myself being peaceful when I normally would have been skidding out-of-control. If Sabbath rest doesn't work in my most tense moments of my life, then it's not really real. But praise God it does work, and the Holy Spirit is the means of calming me, giving me wisdom and clarity, and literally helping me to trust. No, I'm not looking for the Holy Spirit to help me keep the law. But I am experiencing him helping me literally to begin living a new life, a life that never would have been possible before I accepted Jesus' saving grace and experienced the Holy Spirit. Life lived in the Spirit is a life of continual calls to honesty and relinquishment. It's a life of God's discipline and healing. And it's details are different for each person. I'm not talking, either, about a life that's easier or more trouble-free. Quite the opposite, actually. Life is actually more challenging than before. But internally I experience the presence of Jesus in situations that used to overwhelm me. Praise God for his grace and for his Spirit, the promised Comforter and the seal of my salvation! Colleen | ||
| Lydell |
Colleen said: "But I can honestly say that living with Jesus on a personal, daily basis through the promptings of the Holy Spirit has completely changed the quality of my life." Absolutely! And the difference between what you are saying Colleen, and what Patti is saying comes down to "choice". Everything rests on the completed work of Christ on the cross. But it is by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit that we have access to that completed work. And we must choose to access that. For instance, in Colleen's example of being high-strung. The power of God is there to help her during hi stress times. But it still comes back to a matter of her choice of whether or not to listen to the Holy Spirit's promptings during those times. And it is a matter of her choosing to follow those promptings that the Holy Spirit gives. Everything comes down to our choice of responding to Christ's completed work on a daily basis. This is NOT works. It is surrender. | ||
| Max |
"Everyone who sins is a slave to sin. ... So if the Son sets you free, you will be free [have choices] indeed" (NIV John 8:34-36). | ||
| Patti |
As Patti and have talked, I make no bones that I believe that she is denying the Holy Spirit and she is sure I am denying the gospel. 1. Maryann, I never said that you or anyone else is denying the Gospel. What I do see is that few see the Gospel as all-sufficient, all-consuming, as being all about the finished work of Jesus Christ. 2. You claim (repeatedly) that I deny the Holy Spirit. Did you read my post on the Holy Spirit (above)? If you did, then you know that I do not deny the Holy Spirit. I am going to re-post that essay below in case you cannot find it. What I do question is this notion that the primary work of the Holy Spirit in us is to regenerate our characters. Reading from the book of John and the book of Acts, particularly, I find that the primary work of the Holy Spirit in us is to lead us to Christ and to empower us to testify of Him. Many Christians are looking for some further or "greater" experience than to be forgiven and accepted with God for the sake of the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ alone. I think Paul addresses this best in his words to the Galatians: 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law (or because you have changed lives), or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. Not those with regenerated characters, changed lives, but those who believe. We can perform no holier act on this earth than to believe in the One Whom God has sent, Jesus Christ our righteousness. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10 All who rely on observing the law (ANY law) are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." Paul uses this statement several times. "The righteous will live by faith." We are dead spiritually. The only way we will "live" in this body of death is by faith. By trusting in something we have no first-hand evidence of; by believing that God imputes the finished and perfect work of Jesus Christ to us. The only way we can be "righteous" in this body of death is by faith in the perfect obedience of Another. 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law And we put ourselves back under the curse of the law whenever we preach character regeneration. Anything we do or experience is a "work." And when we rely on our works as either a sign of our salvation or as part of our salvation itself, we are putting ourselves back under law, back under the curse. by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. 15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. Our inheritance, our righteousness, our salvation is in heaven in trust (Great analogy!) where moth and rust cannot destroy or corrupt. Where it cannot be tainted by the sinfulness of our human flesh. Just like the teenager who inherits a great fortune when he comes "of age," so we can count on, we can plan on and depend upon our salvation, our eternal spiritual inheritance, in Jesus Christ. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. Wonderful verse! The promises were made to the faithful remnant, the Seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ. Therefore, in Him, we already possess all of the promises of God by faith. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. The promise came first; then the law was added so that trespasses would increase; so that people would see how exceedingly sinful they were. So that there could be no doubt that it was God and God alone who saves us; nothing of our own doing. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, If our inheritance is righteous living in our flesh... ... then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come The law is a temporary custodian, not keeping us "in line," because we are told that when the law came, trespasses multiplied. The purpose of the law is to continually remind us of our sinfulness, until the promise is revealed to us. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. If we could have regained our right standing with God by law, then God would have certainly told us this, and would have given us a law that would make us righteous. However, as we have seen earlier in this chapter, law--that is, anything that demands that we work out our righteousness in our flesh--brings only death and condemnation. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. God could have eradicated sin. The world remained a prisoner of sin, however, so that His glory might be revealed in His great saving act in Jesus Christ. And lest no person doubt that salvation is God's work and God's alone, the promise comes to us by faith, not in physically perceptible form. Salvation is God's work. All we can do is trust in Him to keep His promises to us. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, ...and if we insist on examining our lives for evidence of excellent law-keeping--loving one's neighbor is law, btw--then we are still prisoners... locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. We do not need to constantly be "measuring up" to the perfect standard of of the law, of Christ's obedience; we are no longer under the law. Any law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, present tense; we are heirs to Christ's perfect salvation right now 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Past tense, not "are in the process of clothing," or "will eventually be clothed in." 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Maryann, you used to be close to Robert Brinsmead. In the 70s and early 80s he fearlessly and powerfully preached the Gospel to SDAs. Please delve into his book, Judged by the Gospel. It clearly outlines the differences between the Gospel and the RCC (SDA) gospel. Also his sermons posted on Present Truth Magazine. The Gospel is not about anything that happens in us. It is about the finished work of Jesus Christ alone. This is where the SDAs go wrong; this is where the RCC goes wrong. They try to make Christ's work ongoing and incomplete; they try to sell a gospel of being "made" righteous as opposed to the Pauline Gospel of being declared righteous by trusting in the obedience of the One. This false gospel is the root of all heresy; it is the dividing line between true Christianity and all other religions in the world. Christianity is the only religion that offers salvation purely gratuitously; that is, purely by the historic work of Another. It is about God reaching down to earth and saving undeserving, even unconcerned, humans; all other religions are about us reaching up to God. I will close for now, but please read my essay on the Holy Spirit. I think it will answer your questions as to whether or not I deny Him. May God lead us daily into a more certain conviction that Jesus is our full salvation, our perfect Righteousness, our only Hope. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Patti |
I DON'T think there is a hierarchy! There is a babe and there is mature. That IS a hierarchy, Maryann. | ||
| Patti |
Re-Post from above: The Role of the Holy Spirit It is possible that Christianity has more diverse beliefs about the Holy Spirit than about any other single doctrine. Some denominations say that the "falling of the Holy Ghost" upon the soul will inevitably result in the manifestation of the spiritual gift of tongues, that the lack of presence of this gift is indicative of the lack of the Holy Spirit in one's life. Others say that when the believer is in-dwelled by the Holy Spirit, his/her life will reflect such a change in character, that all can see the Spiritual reflection of Christ in word and action. Fringe groups claim that healing and miracles are signs of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. There is some evidence in the Bible for each of these views, but, I believe that one must always: 1. Examine each subject in the light of the Gospel, and 2. Look at the preponderance of evidence in the Scriptures. Let's begin this study with a text very near and dear to the heart of SDAism: Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." How many times is this quoted in the SDA church? Unfortunately, it has been skewed to mean something else, something almost blasphemous, but we will not discuss that at this point.. What is the real meaning of this text? It is not difficult: the words are right there, right in front of your eyes and need very little spin or interpretation. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." What is the spirit of prophecy? The testimony, the witnessing of Jesus. I believe, just as the overwhelming amount of OT prophecy was of Jesus Christ, that the New Testament prophet is one who testifies of Jesus. And who inspires this testimony? The Holy Spirit, of course. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, John 16 contains a very important passage concerning the role of the Holy Spirit:: John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; The Holy Spirit will convict the word of sin. This is not necessarily referring to one's conscience that prevents him from doing certain things or convicts him that something he did was wrong. Notice the definition: " ... concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me." Sin, in the NT, is not believing in Jesus Christ (Hebrews 3,4) 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; I find this very interesting. The phrase "concerning righteousness" is not in regard our own righteousness, our merits, the fruits of our own labors, but, clearly, the righteousness of which we are convicted is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. "...because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me," or, in other words, we no longer physically behold the One Who is righteous, the ONLY One Who is righteous. 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. The Holy Spirit will convict the believer concerning judgment. The judgment of his "good" works before the throne of God? Hardly. "Because the ruler of this world has been judged." The Holy Spirit will reveal to us that Satan is a defeated foe, that we have no need to fear the evil forces in our lives, because Satan has been judged, condemned, and defeated. Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. What a wonderful promise! When the Holy Spirit comes to us, He will guide us into all truth. What is Truth? John 3:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." John 8:31 Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. We are promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all Truth. The Truth? Jesus Christ is our righteousness, and in Him we are free of the curse of sin. Continuing with this passage in John 16. 16:14 "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you. 16:16 "A little while, and you will no longer behold Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me." While the presence of the Holy Spirit does produce fruit, and the believers will exhibit the gifts of the Spirit, the main role of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus. When we tell others of the great mercy of God in Jesus Christ, of His saving work for us, of His magnificence, perfection, and glory, we do so at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. When we say that we believe that Jesus' sacrifice was absolutely sufficient, that all who come to Him are in no wise cast out, that He will save His people to the uttermost, we are prophecying, and we are so doing with the help of the Holy Spirit. When we say, with Simon Peter, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God," we can also know that "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." Continued in Part 2 |
