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Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Friends,

I love you all. And I have immensely enjoyed
our conversations.

FAFF has been for me a house of worship as
much as any made of stone and steel and
wood. The only difference: it's made of
electrons.

At its outset FAF was dedicated to God and
this, I believe, has been the secret of its
success. And it will continue to be successful
in future only as this divine secret remains
operative.

Divinism will always remain superior to
humanism, I believe, despite everything.

And so, at the heart of this post, I wish to say
this:

IF YOU DENY CHRIST LIVING IN YOUR
HEART YOU WILL EVENTUALLY DENY HIM
HANGING ON THE HISTORICAL CROSS AS
WELL.

Dear friends, keep him there. Not hidden, but
revealed.

Reveal Him as you push your shopping cart
around the supermarket aisles. Don't stand
and fume and say nothing if two carts are
blocking your way between Little Debbie
Health Foods on one side and canned
Pseudoflesh on the other.

Smile and ask if you may pass.

Other people are just like you. They're
generally unaware that they're frustrating your
need. They'll respond, generally, as you
would. And as you pass, smile big and say HI
THERE! to that angry baby in the cart. See if
you can't elicit a smile from him!

Do you have eyes to see? Ears to hear? The
truth as it is in Jesus is this: You are as much
a missionary in the supermarket as in the
jungles of deepest Africa.

This is what the kingdom of heaven is all
about. It lies under our feet as well as over are
heads. If the Cross is in you, you carry heaven
with you like an aura wherever you go. And as
you go the supermarket tiles on which you
walk become holy.

Not because you make them holy. But
because the Cross within you makes them
holy. Thus everything you touch becomes holy.

Now I've said I'm giving notice. But I haven't
said what for. For this: I won't be posting on
FAFF as much in future. I'll still lurk some. So
I'll be able to read your posts. Just not as
much.

THIS NOTICE MADE POSSIBLE BY THE
CROSS ALONE.

God bless you all,

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, I agreee whole heartedly and will miss the posts. I urge you to take a break but do not discontinue. I for one need you knowledge and opinions. God Bless You. Your younger but not that much Sister in Jesus, Valerie
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Max,

I will miss your posts and your knowledge.

God Bless you my brother Max, in Jesus Christ's name,

Denise, your sister (the Berean one)
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Max,

I three, will miss your post's;-(( I do understand how the discussion can draw one in, causing needed things around the house to go
un-tended. I have been there and still am, though much more under control;-))

You can be counted on though, I'm sure, to show your fingers on occasion;-))

IBC
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2001 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, Good evening, :-)) I, too, feel (like you have stated above), that "FAFF has been for me a house of worship as much as any made of stone and steel and wood. The only difference: it's made of
electrons."

FAFF has been a place of refuge for me also in my life...

I have attended a large, non S.D.A. church on Sat. nights for the past six weeks. (They have two Sat. night and two Sun. morning services). I have been blessed attending there!! Wonderul Christ-centered sermons!!

And, I still come back to this place. :-))

So I would ask, What's going on Max? Why the "notice" of not posting much? Sounds so official...:-)) Is it "time restraints" and/or new responsibilities? I know how that can be... Or perhaps you'd rather not say?

I hope the "discussion" lately has not been the reason. I see so much your point of view on living a grateful response to the Cross! I see you as believing in the Sufficiency of Christ!

I would caution that we have to be careful in saying that "the Cross within" us makes everything we touch holy. I feel this could be dangerous ground if we don't moment by moment depend on the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Even then, Pure Holiness resides in Christ Alone...

Again, our Complete Perfection lies outside of us!... Finished Completely and Perfectly by Christ's life, death, and resurrection in our place!!

But, like you, I sense His Spirit at work within me also.

Still, it will never be to the degree of what Christ accomplished!

And, thankfully, I don't have to strive toward that type of "victory". It has already been WON for me by Jesus!

But His Spirit is with me nevertheless...giving me love for persons totally unlovable!

Giving me the gift of forgiveness, instead of the chains of bitterness...

And these are definitely not perfected in my life! In fact, there are times when I'm in despair when these feelings of hatred and unforgiveness resurrect themselves.

But I know that I AM COVERED; I AM CLEANSED COMPLETELY AND ALWAYS, BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS! He is my CONFIDENCE no matter what!

I see you as believing this also.

I see your stress on godly living as not being incompatible with GRACE!

The Holy Spirit brings salvation to us!! And then teaches us!! As Titus 2:11 says:

"For the GRACE OF GOD that BRINGS SALVATION HAS APPEARED to all men. IT TEACHES US to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the BLESSED HOPE--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, JESUS CHRIST, WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR US TO REDEEM US FROM ALL WICKEDNESS AND TO PURIFY FOR HIMSELF A PEOPLE THAT ARE HIS VERY OWN, EAGER TO DO WHAT IS GOOD."

We should be a CELEBRATING COMMUNITY! A confident community of believers, living humbly and gratefully UNDER THE CROSS!

Grace always,
Cindy
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I already miss you Max...:(
Max
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 2:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone,

I need to emerge from the woodwork briefly to:

1. Thank you who've posted on this thread,
and

2. Answer Cindy's legitimate question:

^^What's going on Max? Why the "notice" of not
posting much? Sounds so official...:-)) Is it
"time restraints" and/or new responsibilities? I
know how that can be... Or perhaps you'd
rather not say?

I hope the "discussion" lately has not been the
reason.^^

No, ^^the "discussion" lately has not been the
reason.^^ I've enjoyed every addictive second
of it.

I hope everyone understands that I have
always tried to separate any person posting
an opinion opposite to mine from the oposing
opinion itself.

I love all of you, including Patti, but with an
agape love not my own -- since, being as
much "chief of sinners" as is Paul -- I am
utterly incapable of loving as I ought. Rather, it
is Christ in my who does the agape loving.

I'll leave you all with this:

NO CROSS IN THE HEART, NO CROSS ON
THE HILL

Bless you all,

Max of the Cross
Cindy
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 6:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max....Now, how am I going to wake up without my Max(well)!!? :-)) :-))

I pray that God's Presence will continue to be with you very much!

I love this from 2 Corinthians 9:8:

"GOD IS ABLE to make ALL GRACE ABOUND TO YOU, so that IN ALL THINGS, AT ALL TIMES, HAVING ALL THAT YOU NEED, YOU WILL ABOUND IN EVERY GOOD WORK."

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Everyone,

Hey Cindy! I never said I was going away --
except into the woodwork! Only cutting back!

Thanks for your post. Because of it I've
decided to have at least one post a day.
Wouldn't want you to miss your Maxwell
House coffee blend, would I?

My thought for the day:

The "something" that is "in you" -- in the form
of the Holy Spirit -- is the Son: descent,
incarnation, birth, life (acts and words), death,
tomb-rest, resurrection, appearances, ascent,
and sitting down at the right hand of the
Father.

But the Holy Spirit is not compartmentalized or
isolated to any one location inside your skin --
such as brain or heart -- but rather He resides
in every cell.

Nor is He paralyzed. To the extent that we are
able to cooperate with Him, He actualizes our
every thought and move.

This is not the early-SDA "holy flesh" heresy. It
is what it means to be "made holy."

For, "by one sacrifice he has made perfect
[sinless] forever those who are being made
holy" (NIV Hebrews 10:14).

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max wrote:

This is not the early-SDA "holy flesh" heresy. It
is what it means to be "made holy."


I am very sad to say this, but that is exactly what it is. "There is no new heresy under the sun." It is the same road E.J. Waggoner and A.T. Jones went down. And I am sorry to see it on here.

It is also the main difference between the Reformational and the Catholic gospel: The Catholics believe that to be justified (saved) means not only to be declared righteous by God, but actually to be made righteous. This is what I hear you saying.

Dear readers, don't take my word for it. When this premise was first presented to me (that SDAs actually teach an RC gospel) I was hotly vehement. I set out to prove that they did not. But I found out otherwise. The Roman gospel means that Jesus actually makes us holy in our flesh.

When the Gospel confronts us, it demands that we take a stand. Not taking a stand is tantamount to rejecting the Gospel. I am not saying that anyone on here has rejected the Gospel; we grow in the knowledge of the all-sufficiency of the work of Jesus in our behalf. No one has perfect theology, nor can we, but there are some serious heresies that we must avoid. One of them being the Catholic notion that we are actually made righteous in our flesh.

If you want an excellent resource that discusses this from an SDA perspective, there are 2 books that you must read, slowly and prayerfully:
Judged by the Gospel, by Robert Brinsmead. (This is still available at Amazon.com.) and,
The Shaking of Adventism, by Geoffrey Paxton. The latter is out of print, but I would be willing to share a copy of it with any interested parties.

You see, it is not enough just to leave the heresies of the SDA church behind. Unless one finds and removes the root of the heresy, then that same heresy will grow new (if different) fruit. The false gospel manifests itself in many different fruit, but the root is the same: basing our eternal hopes on something that happens inside of us. This is the root of the SDA heresies, it is the root of the RCC heresies, and it is the root of all false religion.

Max, your words,
"Not because you make them holy. But
because the Cross within you makes them
holy. Thus everything you touch becomes holy
,"
distress me greatly. I don't think you really meant this the way it came out. I was hoping that someone else on here would address them; I know most of you cannot stand me anymore. But no one mentioned them, either out of tact, or from not really realizing the import of what you are saying. They sound very much like they are one step from pantheism. There is only One Who is holy and that is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There is nothing holy in us; there is nothing holy on this earth. Our righteousness is in heaven, safe from corruption by human hands. We are regarded as holy by God, by faith (alone) in the Obedience of the One Who has conquered sin and death.

I know most of you will not believe me; you will think I am just trying to stir up unrest and disharmony. I cannot convince you otherwise. Do not take my word for it. There is plenty of research available at the click of the mouse for those of you who are truly seeking truth. Here is one link that might behoove you to read. This book is a biography of E. J. Waggoner, and an analysis of his "1844 message."
E.J. Waggoner, the Myth and the Man

The Gospel is NEVER about what happens in us.
It is a message of salvation and deliverance because of the historic, unrepeatable, once-for-all work of Jesus Christ in our behalf, which is imputed to us who trust in Him.

May the Spirit of God work with us all daily, making us hunger and thirst for a righteousness that can only be found by trusting in the merits of our Lord, making us restless and uncomfortable until we have found the peace that passes all understanding, the knowledge that our account with God has been settled in full and that He regards us, for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, as He does His own Son.
Max
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*** M E M O ***
To: Everyone
Fr: Max of the Cross
Re: PAULíS LETTER TO TITUS, A GENTILE

Denise, especially, has opened my eyes to
Paulís letter to Titus, one of his converts.
According to the NIV Introduction to the book,
Titus had helped Paul considerably in his
ministry. Hereís how:

Paul:

* Took him from Antioch to the great council in
Jerusalem.

* Presented him there as an example of a
genuine uncircumcised, non-Sabbathkeeping,
non-tithepaying, ìhoney baked hamî-eating,
Holy-Spirit-filled Christian. Thus he helped
Paul win the early church leaders to his
pro-gospel, anti-SDA stand there.

* Employed him at Ephesus (modern Turkey,
on Aegean Sea coast across from Athens,
Greece) during his third missionary journey.

* Sent him across the Aegean to Corinth,
Greece (west of Athens) to work there.

* Worked with him in Crete (large island in the
Mediterranean Sea, south of the Aegean).

* Commissioned him to continue working
there as his representative.

* Asked to meet with him in Nicopolis (on
Greek west coast) after a replacement arrived
on Crete.

* Mentions him (in 2 Timothy 4:10) as having
gone to Dalmatia (in modern Yugoslavia).

From this list we can conclude that Titus,
under Paulís tutelage, had become a capable
and resourceful leader.

Thus, as a person with ìsomething in him,î
Paul could write to Titus as another person
with ìsomething in himî the following
message:

NIV Titus 1:1-10:5 The reason I left you in
Crete was that you might straighten out what
was left unfinished and appoint elders in every
town, as I directed you.
6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of
but one wife, a man whose children believe
and are not open to the charge of being wild
and disobedient.
7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's
work, he must be BLAMELESS -- not
overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to
drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing
dishonest gain.
8 Rather he must be HOSPITABLE, one who
loves what is good, who is
SELF-CONTROLLED, UPRIGHT, HOLY and
DISCIPLINED.
9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy
message as it has been taught, so that he
can encourage others by sound doctrine and
REFUTE THOSE WHO OPPOSE IT.
Max
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NEW TESTAMENT: IF YOU HAVE ACCEPTED
THE CROSS ON THE HILL, YOU ARE A SAINT

************ W O R D **** S T U D Y ************

Acts 9:13Ý"I [Ananias] have heard many reports
about this man [Saul, later Paul] and all the
harm he has done to YOUR SAINTS IN
JERUSALEM.

Acts 9:32ÝAs Peter ... went to visit THE SAINTS
IN LYDDA.

Acts 26:10Ý...I [PAUL] PUT MANY OF THE
SAINTS IN PRISON....

Romans 1:7ÝTo ALL IN ROME who ARE loved
by God and CALLED TO BE SAINTS....

Romans 8:27Ý...THE SPIRIT INTERCEDES
FOR THE SAINTS ....

Romans 15:25ÝI [Paul] am on my way to
JERUSALEM IN THE SERVICE OF THE
SAINTS there.

Romans 15:26Ý...MACEDONIA AND ACAIA
WERE PLEASED TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION
FOR THE POOR AMONG THE SAINTS IN
JERUSALEM.

Romans 15:31 I [PAUL] PRAY THAT I may be
rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and
that MY SERVICE IN JERUSALEM MAY BE
ACCEPTABLE TO THE SAINTS there....

Romans 16:2Ý...RECEIVE her [PHOEBE] in the
Lord IN A WAY WORTHY OF THE SAINTS [IN
ROME] and to give her any help she may need
from you, for SHE HAS BEEN A GREAT HELP
TO MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING ME [PAUL].

Romans 16:15 GREET PHILOLOGUS, JULIA,
NEREUS, and HIS SISTER, and OLYMPAS
AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEM.

1 Corinthians 6:1ÝIF any of you has a DISPUTE
with another, dare he TAKE IT before the
ungodly for judgment instead of BEFORE THE
SAINTS?

1 Corinthians 6:2ÝDo you not know that THE
SAINTS will judge the world? And if you are to
judge the world, ARE you not COMPETENT TO
JUDGE trivial cases?

1 Corinthians 14:33ÝFor God is not a God of
disorder but of peace. As in all THE
CONGREGATIONS OF THE SAINTS....

1 Corinthians 16:15ÝYou know that THE
HOUSEHOLD of Stephanas were the first
converts in Achaia, and they HAVE DEVOTED
THEMSELVES TO the service of THE SAINTS.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul ...To the church of God
in Corinth, together with ALL THE SAINTS
THROUGHOUT ACHAIA....

2 Corinthians 8:4 ...They [THE MACEDONIAN
BELIEVERS] urgently PLEADED with us FOR
the privilege of SHARING IN this SERVICE TO
THE SAINTS.

2 Corinthians 9:1Ý2ÝThere is no need for me to
write to you about this SERVICE TO THE
SAINTS.

2 Corinthians 13:13ÝALL THE SAINTS SEND
THEIR GREETINGS.

Ephesians 1:1ÝPAUL, an apostle of Christ
Jesus by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS IN
EPHESUS, the faithful in Christ Jesus....

Ephesians 1:15ÝFor this reason, ever since I
HEARD ABOUT YOUR [the Ephesian
BELIEVERS'] faith in the Lord Jesus and your
LOVE FOR ALL THE SAINTS....

Ephesians 1:18Ý...KNOW the hope to which he
has called you, THE RICHES OF HIS
GLORIOUS INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS....

Ephesians 3:18Ý...may HAVE POWER,
TOGETHER WITH ALL THE SAINTS, TO
GRASP how wide and long and high and deep
is THE LOVE OF CHRIST....

Ephesians 6:18Ý...KEEP ON PRAYING FOR
ALL THE SAINTS.

Philippians 1:1ÝPaul and Timothy ...TO ALL
THE SAINTS in Christ Jesus AT PHILIPPI....

Philippians 4:21ÝGREET ALL THE SAINTS in
Christ Jesus [IN PHILIPPI].

Philippians 4:22 ALL THE SAINTS [IN ROME]
SEND YOU [IN PHILIPPI] GREETINGS,
ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELONG TO
CAESARíS HOUSEHOLD.

Colossians 1:4Ý...WE HAVE HEARD of your
faith in Christ Jesus and OF THE LOVE YOU
HAVE FOR ALL THE SAINTS....

Colossians 1:12Ý...giving thanks to THE
FATHER, who HAS QUALIFIED YOU TO
SHARE IN THE INHERITANCE OF THE
SAINTS....

Colossians 1:26ÝTHE MYSTERY ... IS NOW
DISCLOSED TO THE SAINTS.

1 Timothy 5:9-10 No WIDOW may be put on
the list of widows unless she is ... WELL
KNOWN FOR HER GOOD DEEDS, SUCH AS
BRINGING UP CHILDREN, SHOWING
HOSPITALITY, WASHING THE FEET OF THE
SAINTS, HELPING THOSE IN TROUBLE AND
DEVOTING HERSELF TO ALL KINDS OF
GOOD DEEDS.

Philemon 1:5Ý...I HEAR ABOUT your faith in the
Lord Jesus and YOUR LOVE FOR ALL THE
SAINTS.

Philemon 1:7Ý...YOU [PHILEMON], brother,
HAVE REFRESHED THE HEARTS OF THE
SAINTS.

Jude 1:3Ý...I had to write and urge you to
contend for THE FAITH that WAS ONCE FOR
ALL ENTRUSTED TO THE SAINTS.

Revelation 5:8Ý[The twenty-four elders] were
holding golden BOWLS FULL OF INCENSE,
which ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS.

Revelation 8:3ÝAnother ANGEL ... WAS GIVEN
much incense TO OFFER, with THE
PRAYERS OF ALL THE SAINTS....

Revelation 8:4ÝTHE ... PRAYERS OF THE
SAINTS, WENT UP BEFORE GOD....

Revelation 11:18ÝTHE TIME HAS COME
... FOR REWARDING ... YOUR SAINTS....

Revelation 13:7ÝHe [THE BEAST out of the
sea] WAS GIVEN POWER TO MAKE WAR
AGAINST THE SAINTS....

Revelation 13:10 THIS [the sovereign will of
God] CALLS FOR patient endurance and
FAITHFULNESS ON THE PART OF THE
SAINTS.

Revelation 14:12 THIS [the third angelís
message] CALLS FOR PATIENT ENDUR-
ANCE ON THE PART OF THE SAINTS
WHO OBEY God's [CHRISTíS] COMMAND-
MENTS and remain faithful to Jesus.

Revelation 16:6Ý...THEY [those who have
defied God] HAVE SHED THE BLOOD OF
YOUR [the Holy Oneís] SAINTS...."

Revelation 17:6Ý...THE WOMAN [Babyloninan
whore] WAS DRUNK WITH THE BLOOD OF
THE SAINTS....

Revelation 18:20ÝREJOICE, SAINTS....'"

Revelation 18:24 IN her [BABYLON] WAS
FOUND THE BLOOD of prophets and OF THE
SAINTS....

Revelation 19:8ÝFINE LINEN STANDS FOR
THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS.

The love of Christ to all you SAINTS,

Max of the Cross
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To my brother and SAINT in Jesus Christ,

Max, I am soooo happy to see your words on this board!! Praise the Lord that you are still posting and giving us (me for sure) encouraging words to think over and rejoice in!

God Bless you most richly.

If I were near you, I'd give you a great big hug right about now...:))

With love from your sister in Christ Jesus our Lord,
DtB
Max
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bless you, Denise,

I see that the Lord is very strong in you, and
you are not letting anybody take "the cross on
the hill" out of your heart.

MC
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Denise,

Check your e-mail! You are as impossible to reach on the phone as pulling hens teeth;-((

IBC
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Max,

In the words of a song sung by Joan Baez:

"Ain't gonna let anybody, turn me around, turn me around, turn me around.
Ain't gonna let anybody, turn me around, keep on a walkin', keep on a talkin', headed for that brand new world........"

Blessings on your head my brother,
DtB, your sister in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Denisegilmore
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now Maryann,

Now don't go around like a chicken with yer head cut off...hehe

By the way, I have plucked many a chicken in my day but never have I had the desire to pull their teeth!

I was a too busy thinkin' bout that good ole country fry chicken that I was gonna eat that night!..:))

Will switch screen names now and check my Lampdot mail.

Grace and Peace to you from our Lord Jesus Christ,
DtB, your having been told off and subsequently got the message loud and clear, sister in the Rose of Sharon.
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 6:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Patti, I appreciate what you wrote on the "holy flesh" comments. I would encourage you to read ALL of everyones' posts! You said no one commented on what was said about "the cross within us" making everything we touch holy.

I, too, thought this sounded somewhat pantheistic and that it may be taken the wrong way... So I posted this (Tues. night, 11:41):

"I would caution that we have to be careful in saying that "the Cross within" us makes everything we touch holy. I feel this could be dangerous ground if we don't moment by moment depend on the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit to guide us.
Even then, Pure Holiness resides in Christ Alone...
Again, our Complete Perfection lies outside of us!... Finished Completely and Perfectly by Christ's life, death, and resurrection in our place!!"

I appreciate you, Patti! I believe so fully in the message of the Cross, the once-and-forever finality! of the act of Reconciliation and Substitution for us!

Patti, you very rightly warn against any false gospel--

"basing our eternal hopes on something that happens inside of us."

I do not think our main "posters" here are basing their ETERNAL HOPES on something that happens INSIDE of us!

I may be wrong, but I do read a SECURITY and ASSURANCE!!... that because we believe and know that we are children of the King, because of His GIFT of GRACE on the Cross,... let's LIVE that way!

Of course, I always feel we must make the Main thing (the message of Christ Crucifed for us!) CONTINUE to be the Main thing!

I agree we can't get any better than this! ;-))

Yet don't have to deny the help of the Holy Spirit in all of this either. There is a Complete RESTING in what GOD HAS DONE, and then an adventure that HE calls us to.

To present our bodies as LIVING SACRIFICES to HIM. I love Him so much! And I know you do, too, Patti. How I wish we ALL could be together for a LONG evening of food and drink to talk this over face-to face!

Have a good day, I have to run....

Grace always,
Cindy
Patti
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy wrote:
I, too, thought this sounded somewhat pantheistic and that it may be taken the wrong way... So I posted this (Tues. night, 11:41):

"I would caution that we have to be careful in saying that "the Cross within" us makes everything we touch holy. I feel this could be dangerous ground if we don't moment by moment depend on the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit to guide us.
Even then, Pure Holiness resides in Christ Alone...
Again, our Complete Perfection lies outside of us!... Completely and Perfectly by Christ's life, death, and resurrection in our place!!"


I am sorry, Cindy. I must have missed this altogether. And I was actually waiting for someone else to say something, (because a dear friend of mine says I should not talk back so much! *wink*). I am multitasking most of the time and I guess I miss a lot.

Your words are right on target and appreciated very much. Also your concilatory attitude.

Yet don't have to deny the help of the Holy Spirit in all of this either. There is a Complete RESTING in what GOD HAS DONE, and then an adventure that HE calls us to.

True, but I am truly confused as to where it has become generally accepted Christian doctrine that the main purpose of the Holy Spirit is to regenerate our characters. There are isolated passages, but, by and large, throughout the NT, especially in John and in Acts, the main work of the Holy Spirit was to lead us to Christ and to empower us to testify of Jesus.

David McMahon (associated with Brinsmead and Verdict Press, BTW, Maryann) shows quite sequentially how E. J. Waggoner's journey to pantheism started by his not seeing that "righteousness by faith" is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. There is no place to go except to the holiness or "holy flesh" movement when we believe (as the Catholic do) that being justified means being actually made righteous instead of, as clearly expounded in Romans, being declared righteous by God for the sake of a perfect obedience, the obedience of the One which justifies the many.

So, what do you suggest, Cindy? That I remain silent in the face of possible heresy, possibly grievous heresy? That I shake the dust off my feet and move on (as I have been advised to do many times)? Can you imagine Paul or Luther intentionally turning a blind eye to teachings that lead to confusion? I am no Paul or Luther, but is that what I should do? Or do I take seriously what I see as my commission to "know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified"? Please. Tell me what to do. I am quite frustrated with the fact that so many around me (not just on this board, but on SDA boards and other Christian boards) do not see the Gospel completely fulfilled in the historic life and death of Jesus Christ; that they are not tickled pink with forgiveness and acceptance; that they are looking for a greater or further experience than salvation. People get bored with hearing about the historic Jesus; they want something tangible, something they can feel and experience right here and now--without realizing that if we can experience it is not of faith.

This is not about "loving each other." How loving would someone be to smooth over every disagreement and allow his/her colleague to fall into serious heresy? The peace that God gives us is beyond understanding. It is not peace as we know it on earth; it is peace with God. Again, something we experience by faith. We are promised that the preaching of Jesus will bring persecution. Are we being "loving" by not preaching Jesus Christ strongly and loudly and pointing out potential heresy, or are we just trying not to place ourselves in the middle of controversy? Everyone on here thinks that I am a hostile, belligerent, pushy, overbearing, and arrogant person, yet my words have not been personal; I have addressed no one's "character" because all of our characters are flawed beyond repair and our only Hope is Jesus Christ, our Righteousness. And all I have tried to do, poorly I admit, is to keep us focused on the Source of our salvation.

I have no answers. All I know is that those who are enamored with their spiritual experiences become hostile when the Gospel is preached, a Gospel that is all about Christ and not about us, a Gospel in which our salvation, our righteousness, is never inside of us, but in heaven in Jesus Christ.

I know that you have a keen understanding of the Gospel, so perhaps you can understand my dilemma. Do we sit back and allow heresy to take hold? Or do we fight it? Did Luther sit back in the face of heresy? Did Paul? Should we?

Just because someone preaches the Gospel boldly (well maybe not boldly, but at least loudly and persistently) does not mean he does not love his neighbor. In fact, it could mean that he has a deep love, a deep desire that his neighbor does not fall off into heresy.

Nevertheless, persecution will accompany the presentation of the Gospel. We are promised this. So it is to be expected. Do I remain silent, then, to avoid this and not to make waves? I don't think so. What do you think? Please, tell me.

Your sister in Christ,
Patti
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Cindy and Patti,

I may have been drifting off momentarily in the
direction of the "holy flesh" fantasy. But I have
confessed this sin to God, and he has
forgiven me.

And reminded me that I remain "chief of
sinners."

Blessings to both,

Max of the Cross

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