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Patti
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a few stats for those of you who have wondered about the passages that seem to emphasize the Christ within rather than the historic Christ:

The phrase "in Christ" (or equivalent) occurs 293 times in the New Testament.

Christ "in you" is always plural (that is, Christ in "y'all"} and is translated by many theologians as Christ "among" you, as in, "His name shall be Emmanuel, God with us." This expression occurs about six times depending upon the translation.

Christ "in me" occurs only once: in Galatians 2:20.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Just as no one would say that we are literally crucified with Christ and literally no longer live, likewise, no one should say that Christ literally lives in us. It is by faith alone. The life of Christ is imputed to us and, in God's eyes, becomes ours, again, by faith alone, never in actuality in this life.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see no difference, scripturally speaking,
between "Christ in you" and "you in Christ."
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John 5:38Ýnor does his WORD DWELL IN
YOU, for you do not believe the one he sent.

Ephesians 2:22ÝAnd in him YOU too ARE
being built together to become A DWELLING
IN WHICH GOD LIVES by his Spirit.

Ephesians 3:17Ýso that CHRIST MAY DWELL
IN YOUR HEARTS through faith. And I pray that
you, being rooted and established in love,

Colossians 3:16ÝLET THE WORD OF CHRIST
DWELL IN YOU richly as you teach and
admonish one another with all wisdom, and
as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual
songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

"Word" in these contexts must be interpreted
as in 1 John 1:1 -- "In the beginning was the
Word...." Word = Christ. Living word, not dead.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1. Romans 8:9ÝYou, however, are controlled
not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if THE
SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN YOU. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.

2. Romans 8:11ÝAnd if THE SPIRIT OF HIM
[GOD] who raised Jesus from the dead IS
LIVING IN YOU, he who raised Christ from the
dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through HIS SPIRIT, who LIVES IN YOU.

3. 1 Corinthians 3:16Ý1 Don't you know that
you yourselves are God's temple and that
GOD'S SPIRIT LIVES IN YOU?

Comment on the three texts above: If the Spirit
of God lives in you, then Christ lives in you,
since Jesus is God and God is One.

2 Timothy 1:5ÝI have been reminded of your
sincere FAITH, which first LIVED IN YOUR
GRANDMOTHER LOIS AND IN YOUR
MOTHER EUNICE AND, I am persuaded, now
LIVES IN YOU also.

Comment on the text above: If faith was alive
in them, then Christ was alive in them, since
faith is faith in Christ who is alive.

1 John 2:14ÝI write to you, fathers, because
you have known him who is from the
beginning. I write to you, young men, because
you are strong, and THE WORD OF GOD
LIVES IN YOU, and you have overcome the evil
one.

Comment on text above: If the Word of God
lives in you, then Christ lives in you, since
Christ is the Word (1 John 1:1).
Patti
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,
It is a matter of confusing and confounding the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit with once-for-all, finished and unrepeatable work of Jesus Christ. Jesus proclaimed, "It is finished." He has sat down at the right hand of the Father. His work is complete and perfectly accomplished. It is by this work, this finished work alone, that we are saved.

The problem in confusing the work of the Holy Spirit in us with the work of Jesus Christ, which is finished, is that it leads directly into a host of heresies including the "Holy Flesh" movement and pantheism. If Christ is actually living out His (saving) life IN us, then who is to say that our every action and motivation is pure and beyond reproach? After all if CHRIST HIMSELF is living HIS LIFE in US, then would not everything that He did be holy and righteous? Thus, should not everything that He does in us also be perfect and holy and righteous and above reproach?

But that is not the Gospel message. Clearly, Hebrews 10, Galatians 3 and many passages in the book of Romans tell us that we retain our sinful nature; that our works are not holy and above reproach, but are, still, as Isaiah says, "filthy rags."

If you cannot go along with the above statement, (if what we produce when Christ lives in us is NOT perfect and holy), if you maintain that even your good works are still tainted with sin, then then the only alternative is that Christ does an imperfect and sinful work.

Neither of the above is acceptable. Therefore, we need to separate Christ's perfect saving work FOR us from the work of the Holy Spirit IN US.

First of all, for Christ to be living in us means that God is living in sinful flesh. SDAs have no problem with this because they believe that Christ was incarnated into sinful flesh; that He experienced exactly the same temptations as we do, and He showed us how we, too, can overcome them in our sinful flesh. This is a heresy so rabid that not even the Catholic church will accept it! (They have ways of getting around the doctrine of "original sin," however.) This view also demeans the holiness of Jesus and His very Godhood.

God and sin cannot coexist. "Our God is a consuming fire." When Moses asked to see His glory, God said that He could only see the residuals of His passing in front of Him, because no sinful human could look on His face and survive. Sin is consumed in the presence of the perfect holiness of God. This is why Adam and Eve were dismissed from the Garden, and from personal communion with God. Sin is death because it is destroyed in the presence of a holy and righeous God.

Secondly, if Jesus is living out His life in us, as the song claims, then our salvation has not yet been secured. But, since our salvation is based upon His historical obedience, his perfect fulfillment of all of the law, and not on anything produced by sinful humanity, we can boldly approached the throne of grace. But if we are looking for something that happens IN us upon which to base our hopes, then we are basing them on something that is imperfect, incomplete, and for which the outcome is uncertain.

The Holy Spirit works in us and inspires us. His main purpose, as I showed in the essay on the Holy Spirit, above, is to spread the Gospel of our salvation in Jesus Christ: to convict us of our need of Christ, to give us faith to believe in Him, to give us perseverance to keep on believing, and to give us the power and boldness to tell others.

"In Christ" is quite different from "Christ in me." Just as it is quite different to say that the car is in the garage, and that the garage is in the car. Christ is God. He is infinite. He had the power to save the whole world "in Him." We are finite, weak, depraved, and very, very small. We are we incapable of even fathoming the majesty and glory of God, let alone literally possessing it inside of us. We are "in Christ" when we trust in His saving grace. And when we are "in Christ," we are regarded by God as holy as Christ Himself.

I will comment on the texts you provided in the next post.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Patti
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1. Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN YOU. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.


I have never denied that the Holy Spirit lives with us and works with us. But His main work is to inspire us to have faith in Jesus Christ and to initiate the spreading of the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is a natural by-product of our salvation; it is the down-payment. If we believe in Jesus Christ, we will be given the Holy Spirit. We cannot hope to achieve salvation by emulating the work of the Holy Spirit in us. There is only one way to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit: Believing on Jesus Christ. His work IN US should never be confused with the perfect obedience that saves us. His job is to keep us focused on the Source of our salvation.

2. Romans 8:11 And if THE SPIRIT OF HIM
[GOD] who raised Jesus from the dead IS
LIVING IN YOU, he who raised Christ from the
dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
through HIS SPIRIT, who LIVES IN YOU.


Again, no problems here.

3. 1 Corinthians 3:16 1 Don't you know that
you yourselves are God's temple and that
GOD'S SPIRIT LIVES IN YOU?


I am not sure where you (evidently) got the idea that I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives in us and works with us.

Comment on the three texts above: If the Spirit
of God lives in you, then Christ lives in you,
since Jesus is God and God is One.


Have you ever wondered the significance of the Trinity? I have posted it on here before. I will re-post it because it is easier than redoing the research.

2 Timothy 1:5 I have been reminded of your
sincere FAITH, which first LIVED IN YOUR
GRANDMOTHER LOIS AND IN YOUR
MOTHER EUNICE AND, I am persuaded, now
LIVES IN YOU also.


I see no conflict here. The Holy Spirit is the One Who gives us faith.

Comment on the text above: If faith was alive
in them, then Christ was alive in them, since
faith is faith in Christ who is alive.


Not a good equation here. You cannot equate faith (a human action) with Christ. That is like saying, I love you; God is love; therefore, I am God.

1 John 2:14 I write to you, fathers, because
you have known him who is from the
beginning. I write to you, young men, because
you are strong, and THE WORD OF GOD
LIVES IN YOU, and you have overcome the evil
one.


Comment on text above: If the Word of God
lives in you, then Christ lives in you, since
Christ is the Word (1 John 1:1).


The Word of God = The Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Max, the only way in which Christ dwells in us is by faith. By faith alone. "Faith is the evidence of things unseen." Sinful humanity simply cannot literally partake in divinity; the holiness of God consumes sin. The only way in which we are holy or righteous (or have Christ living in us) in this lifetime is by faith alone. This battlecry of the Reformation is still quite valid today. We are saved entirely by faith, that is, we cannot see or touch or physically experience our salvation. It is in heaven, safe from corruption by sinful humanity.

Grace and peace,
Patti
Patti
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



I am convinced that there is good reason for there being a Triune God. Why distinguish between the Three if there is not a reason to do so? I believe it has to do with the unique Function of Each Personality of the Godhead.

Re-post:
The Trinity

Sometimes I am a bit slow at understanding things. I was hitting my forehead with the palm of my hand the other evening for not realizing before what just dawned on me when I was posting to Denise concerning the Trinity.

I have never really given that much thought to the Trinity, just more or less accepted it. I always thought that the main trouble with the doctrine of the Trinity was that people deny the divinity of Christ. This is, of course a big problem, but there is another, more subtle problem that can come of not specifically defining and distinguishing between the different Persons of the Godhead. And I think it is a problem that is rampant in Christendom today, and that is confusing and confounding the work of Jesus with the work of the Holy Spirit.

The work of Jesus Christ is a finished, completed, once-for-all, and unrepeatable work of that was accomplished perfectly for us. It was wrought in sinless flesh and is totally untainted by any spot or blemish. We had no part in it; all we can do is to trust in this magnificent saving work. It is this historic work of Jesus Christ alone that saves us.

The work of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing, incomplete, and imperfect work (since He is working through sinful flesh). It is not unto salvation, it is a gift of salvation. Not only this, but the primary manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament was the testimony of Jesus. Nowhere in the New Testament do you find believers testifying to their own changed lives because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In the New Testament, the main role of the Holy Spirit was to inspire individuals to believe in Jesus Christ and then to facilitate the spread of the Gospel by telling others of the His great saving act for all who believe.

You see, salvation is ALL God's work. The Father over all, Jesus accomplishing the salvific work, the Holy Spirit focusing and refocusing us on the work of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER brings the focus to the believer. (Or Himself) NEVER. He gives us the ability to understand that Christ is our salvation; then He gives us the motivation and the courage to tell others about Jesus. I guess what I am really saying here, friends, is that it was brought back to me again today, in yet clearer focus that IT IS ALL ABOUT JESUS. From first to last.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus Christ has a finished work and an
ongoing work. His work on the cross on the
hill is fiinished. Of that he said, "It is finished."
His work in the heart is ongoing. Of that he
said, "I am with you always, even unto the end
of the world."
Patti
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Max:
Jesus Christ has a finished work and an
ongoing work.


Max,
This is the foundation of the SDA heresy, the IJ. Jesus Himself said, "It is finished." Throughout, the book of Hebrews speaks of Christ's work being "once-for-all."

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26 Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.


Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.
12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.


Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.


Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.


1. His work is finished; He has provided purification for sin.
2. He sat down, a position of rest, at the right hand of the Father.

The work of Jesus Christ is finished. He "ever lives" to make intercession for us. His very existence in the presence of God is our mediation in heaven. God accepted His work, and, therefore, we know we are accepted in Him.

His work in the heart is ongoing.

Scriptural reference?

Of that he said, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Of course, He is "with us" unto the end of the world! His very presence in heaven is our assurance of OUR acceptance with God. His salvific work is finished.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus' ongoing work does not make us
sinless. We are already sinless in Christ. The
SDA position is that Jesus' ongoing work
makes us sinless. The exact opposite of what
I'm saying.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sinless and "chief of sinners" at the same
time.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The SDA heresy has people reaching a state
of perfection or sinlessness in and of
themselves, coached by Jesus' example.
Thus they can "stand before God without a
Mediator."

My thought is that when we allow Christ to put
his robe of righteousness round our
shoulders we are instantly sinless in Him,
never to remove that robe, not even after we
have been "changed in a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye."

Thus throughout all eternity we will STILL be
"sinners wearing Christ's robe" -- even
though
we no longer commiting any sins.

You may call my contention heresy -- and try to
prove your charge by appealing to Scripture
alone -- but SDA heresy?

EGW would rise to your challenge!
Denisegilmore
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are your Strong's Search Results E-Mail us!
More Search Tools!! Lexicon for Strong's Number 1722 Go to Eph 3:17
1722 en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep

AV - IN 1902, BY 163, WITH 140, AMONG 117, AT 113, ON 62,
THROUGH 39, misc 264; 2800

1) IN, BY, WITH etc.

About Strongs Concordance for Strongs Number 1722 Go to Eph 3:17

There are 2800 instances of verses containing Strong's number 1722. Page 57, verses 1401 - 1425.

Please look for the lexicon number 1722 while reading these Scriptures. They clearly show us that we indeed have the indwelling of the Spirit.

Please also take note that the most common usage of this greek word is 'IN', not 'AMONG'..

1902 Times this greek work representing 'IN' is used.
Where only 117 times is it used as the word or meaning of 'AMONG'. ...

Also, if I've really messed up in looking this stuff up, please someone out there correct me.

I had to post this as I had read a post somewhere here asking where in Scripture does it say the the Spirit is indwelling us. Also, some time back, someone else had stated that 'most theologians have come to the conclusion that the word 'IN' was really meant or most commonly known as 'AMONGST'.

Unless, I misread, here is some research with more Scriptures at the end for your own search.

God Bless all,
DtB

Rom 8:2 For [1063] the law [3551] of the Spirit [4151] of life [2222] in [1722] Christ [5547] Jesus [2424] hath made [1659] [0] me [3165] free [1659] (5656) from [575] the law [3551] of sin [266] and [2532] death [2288].

Rom 8:3 For [1063] what the law [3551] could not do [102], in [1722] that [3739] it was weak [770] (5707) through [1223] the flesh [4561], God [2316] sending [3992] (5660) his own [1438] Son [5207] in [1722] the likeness [3667] of sinful [266] flesh [4561], and [2532] for [4012] sin [266], condemned [2632] (5656) sin [266] in [1722] the flesh [4561]:

Rom 8:3 For [1063] what the law [3551] could not do [102], in [1722] that [3739] it was weak [770] (5707) through [1223] the flesh [4561], God [2316] sending [3992] (5660) his own [1438] Son [5207] in [1722] the likeness [3667] of sinful [266] flesh [4561], and [2532] for [4012] sin [266], condemned [2632] (5656) sin [266] in [1722] the flesh [4561]:

Rom 8:3 For [1063] what the law [3551] could not do [102], in [1722] that [3739] it was weak [770] (5707) through [1223] the flesh [4561], God [2316] sending [3992] (5660) his own [1438] Son [5207] in [1722] the likeness [3667] of sinful [266] flesh [4561], and [2532] for [4012] sin [266], condemned [2632] (5656) sin [266] in [1722] the flesh [4561]:

Rom 8:4 That [2443] the righteousness [1345] of the law [3551] might be fulfilled [4137] (5686) in [1722] us [2254], who walk [4043] (5723) not [3361] after [2596] the flesh [4561], but [235] after [2596] the Spirit [4151].

Rom 8:8 So then [1161] they that are [5607] (5752) in [1722] the flesh [4561] cannot [3756] [1410] (5736) please [700] (5658) God [2316].

Rom 8:9 But [1161] ye [5210] are [2075] (5748) not [3756] in [1722] the flesh [4561], but [235] in [1722] the Spirit [4151], if so be [1512] that the Spirit [4151] of God [2316] dwell [3611] (5719) in [1722] you [5213]. Now [1161] if any man [1536] have [2192] (5719) not [3756] the Spirit [4151] of Christ [5547], he [3778] is [2076] (5748) none [3756] of his [846].

Rom 8:9 But [1161] ye [5210] are [2075] (5748) not [3756] in [1722] the flesh [4561], but [235] in [1722] the Spirit [4151], if so be [1512] that the Spirit [4151] of God [2316] dwell [3611] (5719) in [1722] you [5213]. Now [1161] if any man [1536] have [2192] (5719) not [3756] the Spirit [4151] of Christ [5547], he [3778] is [2076] (5748) none [3756] of his [846].

Rom 8:9 But [1161] ye [5210] are [2075] (5748) not [3756] in [1722] the flesh [4561], but [235] in [1722] the Spirit [4151], if so be [1512] that the Spirit [4151] of God [2316] dwell [3611] (5719) in [1722] you [5213]. Now [1161] if any man [1536] have [2192] (5719) not [3756] the Spirit [4151] of Christ [5547], he [3778] is [2076] (5748) none [3756] of his [846].

Rom 8:10 And [1161] if [1487] Christ [5547] [be] in [1722] you [5213], the body [4983] [3303] [is] dead [3498] because [1223] of sin [266]; but [1161] the Spirit [4151] [is] life [2222] because [1223] of righteousness [1343].

Rom 8:11 But [1161] if [1487] the Spirit [4151] of him that raised up [1453] (5660) Jesus [2424] from [1537] the dead [3498] dwell [3611] (5719) in [1722] you [5213], he that raised up [1453] (5660) Christ [5547] from [1537] the dead [3498] shall [2227] [0] also [2532] quicken [2227] (5692) your [5216] mortal [2349] bodies [4983] by [1223] his [846] Spirit [4151] that dwelleth [1774] (5723) (5625) [1774] (5723) in [1722] you [5213].

Rom 8:11 But [1161] if [1487] the Spirit [4151] of him that raised up [1453] (5660) Jesus [2424] from [1537] the dead [3498] dwell [3611] (5719) in [1722] you [5213], he that raised up [1453] (5660) Christ [5547] from [1537] the dead [3498] shall [2227] [0] also [2532] quicken [2227] (5692) your [5216] mortal [2349] bodies [4983] by [1223] his [846] Spirit [4151] that dwelleth [1774] (5723) (5625) [1774] (5723) in [1722] you [5213].

Rom 8:15 For [1063] ye have [2983] [0] not [3756] received [2983] (5627) the spirit [4151] of bondage [1397] again [3825] to [1519] fear [5401]; but [235] ye have received [2983] (5627) the Spirit [4151] of adoption [5206], whereby [1722] [3739] we cry [2896] (5719), Abba [5], Father [3962].

Rom 8:23 And [1161] not [3756] only [3440] [they], but [235] ourselves [846] also [2532], which have [2192] (5723) the firstfruits [536] of the Spirit [4151], even [2532] we [2249] ourselves [846] groan [4727] (5719) within [1722] ourselves [1438], waiting [553] (5740) for the adoption [5206], [to wit], the redemption [629] of our [2257] body [4983].

Rom 8:29 For [3754] whom [3739] he did foreknow [4267] (5656), he [4309] [0] also [2532] did predestinate [4309] (5656) [to be] conformed [4832] to the image [1504] of his [846] Son [5207], that [1519] he [846] might be [1511] (5750) the firstborn [4416] among [1722] many [4183] brethren [80].

Rom 8:34 Who [5101] [is] he that condemneth [2632] (5723) (5694)? [It is] Christ [5547] that died [599] (5631), yea [1161] rather [3123] [2532], that is risen again [1453] (5685), who [3739] is [2076] (5748) even [2532] at [1722] the right hand [1188] of God [2316], who [3739] also [2532] maketh intercession [1793] (5719) for [5228] us [2257].

Rom 8:37 Nay [235], in [1722] all [3956] these things [5125] we are more than conquerors [5245] (5719) through [1223] him that loved [25] (5660) us [2248].

Rom 8:39 Nor [3777] height [5313], nor [3777] depth [899], nor [3777] any [5100] other [2087] creature [2937], shall be able [1410] (5695) to separate [5563] (5658) us [2248] from [575] the love [26] of God [2316], which is in [1722] Christ [5547] Jesus [2424] our [2257] Lord [2962].

Rom 9:1 I say [3004] (5719) the truth [225] in [1722] Christ [5547], I lie [5574] (5736) not [3756], my [3450] conscience [4893] also bearing [4828] [0] me [3427] witness [4828] (5723) in [1722] the Holy [40] Ghost [4151],

Rom 9:1 I say [3004] (5719) the truth [225] in [1722] Christ [5547], I lie [5574] (5736) not [3756], my [3450] conscience [4893] also bearing [4828] [0] me [3427] witness [4828] (5723) in [1722] the Holy [40] Ghost [4151],

Rom 9:7 Neither [3761], because [3754] they are [1526] (5748) the seed [4690] of Abraham [11], [are they] all [3956] children [5043]: but [235], In [1722] Isaac [2464] shall [2564] [0] thy [4671] seed [4690] be called [2564] (5701).

Rom 9:17 For [1063] the scripture [1124] saith [3004] (5719) unto Pharaoh [5328], Even for [3754] [1519] this [5124] same purpose [846] have I raised [1825] [0] thee [4571] up [1825] (5656), that [3704] I might shew [1731] (5672) my [3450] power [1411] in [1722] thee [4671], and [2532] that [3704] my [3450] name [3686] might be declared [1229] (5652) throughout [1722] all [3956] the earth [1093].

Rom 9:17 For [1063] the scripture [1124] saith [3004] (5719) unto Pharaoh [5328], Even for [3754] [1519] this [5124] same purpose [846] have I raised [1825] [0] thee [4571] up [1825] (5656), that [3704] I might shew [1731] (5672) my [3450] power [1411] in [1722] thee [4671], and [2532] that [3704] my [3450] name [3686] might be declared [1229] (5652) throughout [1722] all [3956] the earth [1093].

Rom 9:22 [What] if [1487] [1161] God [2316], willing [2309] (5723) to shew [1731] (5670) [his] wrath [3709], and [2532] to make [1107] [0] his [846] power [1415] known [1107] (5658), endured [5342] (5656) with [1722] much [4183] longsuffering [3115] the vessels [4632] of wrath [3709] fitted [2675] (5772) to [1519] destruction [684]:

Rom 9:25 As he saith [3004] (5719) also [2532] in [1722] Osee [5617], I will call [2564] (5692) them my [3450] people [2992], which were not [3756] my [3450] people [2992]; and [2532] her beloved [25] (5772), which was [25] [0] not [3756] beloved [25] (5772).

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Denisegilmore
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

On another thread,

You said:

>
As for the "imparted" vs. "imputed," I have no problem with God's power to keep trusting in Him being "imparted" to us by the Holy Spirit.<

But on this thread, you said:
>
I am not sure where you (evidently) got the idea that I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives in us and works with us.<

To me, these statements of yours are contradictions. Either the Holy Spirit INDWELLS us or He is OUTSIDE of us. Imputed or Imparted.

One is inside, one is from outside.

Which is it? Personally, I need to know what the Holy Spirit does and not only that but, where is HE?

I was very happy to see your words on this thread about the Holy Spirit being inside of us and working with us. I agree with His dwelling within us and helping us.

God is ONE. There are many Scriptures that state, with the help of the greek lexicon, that He indeed, indwells IN US.

Not so we can go around and claim that we are perfect or sinless, because we are not. But He is God and God said that He would NEVER leave nor forsake us.

I believe that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and all those wonderful Truths.

So I too believe that God is not only in Heaven incerceeding for us but that He is within us, guiding us to ALL truths and Comforting us, plus a whole host of other fabulous things our God does for us.

We are unworthy to say the least. What a God we serve!

Jesus Christ lived, died and is risen...for us to have eternal life. And we have that eternal life too! This is great and wonderful news.

But to think that Scripture that says, 'he is with us always' or when it speak of Him 'indwelling our temples', as untruth,,is beyond me. I believe what the Bible tells me.

It is the WORD of GOD. And HIS promises are SURE.

God Bless you always as we praise our Lord together!
DtB, your sister who has much learning ahead of her. Be patient with me too okay..:)

P.S. You have taught me much and I thank you. :)
Patti
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 8:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>
As for the "imparted" vs. "imputed," I have no problem with God's power to keep trusting in Him being "imparted" to us by the Holy Spirit.<

But on this thread, you said:
>
I am not sure where you (evidently) got the idea that I do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives in us and works with us.<

To me, these statements of yours are contradictions. Either the Holy Spirit INDWELLS us or He is OUTSIDE of us. Imputed or Imparted.


Denise,
I never said the Holy Spirit does not work in us. What I said is that Jesus does not literally live in us and "live out His life in us."

The perfect righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us; it is credited to those who trust in Him.

The power of God in the Holy Spirit is imparted to us. That power is the ability to discern our full salvation in Jesus Christ, to believe in Him, to persevere in our faith, and to tell others so that they can hear of our great salvation in Jesus Christ.

Read my post on the Trinity, above. Perhaps this will help you understand what I am saying. The role of each Person of the Godhead is specific; elsewise, why a "Triune" God?


Thank you for your kind words,
Grace and peace,
Patti
Max
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

You haven't asked me for my counsel, but on a
public forum under these circumstances I
don't think it's too far out of line for me to offer
some anyway:

Don't allow yourself to become confused over
the words "imputed" and "imparted." Here's
why:

1. These terms were used in the King James
Version. But that dates back to AD 1611.
"Imparted" and "imputed" are used rarely, if at
all, in any recent Greek-English translation.
More accurate and up-to-date English words
are now used in their place.

2. For the last 150 years OFTAs have twisted
the meaning to suit their purposes. For
example, here's a favorite OFTA illustration:

You are like an empty glass. Christ fills it to
the top with oil. This oil OFTAs call "imputed"
righteousness.

Then you, "with Christ's help," start to pour
water into the glass. This water OFTAs CALL
"imparted" righteousness. But they THINK OF
IT as "our own" righteousness.

Since water is heavier than oil (think about that
symbolism, will you!), it sinks to the bottom of
the glass while the oil floats on top of it.

"With Christ's help" you keep pouring more
and more water (imparted righteousness) into
your glass, floating out more and more oil
(imputed righteousness).

Eventually the water floats out all the oil!
Meaning: "Imparted righteousness" replaces
all "imputed righteousness." And just never
you mind Christ's robe of righteousness!

At this point you are sinless, according to
OFTA heresy. You don't have any imputed
righteousness left, since the water has floated
it all out.

Now, being sinless, you can be translated into
heaven "without seeing death."

Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I
can see at least a dozen contradictions to
Scripture. Which is why I see it, and have
always seen it, as erroneous, while I was still
outwardly an OFTA.

Consequently, I don't even use the terms
"imputed righteousness" and "imparted
righteousness." Nor do I know any
professional theologians (no, I'm NOT one)
who do.

Those terms may have been all right for the
17th century, but now, in the 21st, they're a bit
passe.

My counsel: Forget them entirely and use
purely scriptural terms and images from
up-to-date, and more accurate, English
translations (not paraphrases or "expanded
paraphrases" such as the OFTA Clear Word
Bible).

I see God using you in a powerful way
because He is teaching you by the Berean
method!

Thus God is your Teacher!

Blessings,

MC
Denisegilmore
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Patti,

I had just finished up a response when I was bumped off line...arrrrgghhhh! That was a lot of work gone into thin air too..:(

Ah well, maybe for now God just wants me to think more on this topic.

I am about to get ready for Maryann to pick me up at 5pm for the FAF meeting. But before that, I have a few things I need to do.

So, later tonight or tomorrow, I will reply.

Again, it is good to discuss this as I have many questions.

God Bless you always,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus
Denisegilmore
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Max,

Hopefully you read my post to Patti and can see that I do indeed have problems with the words 'imputed' and 'imparted.'

I had a post for Patti and was bumped off line but will do it again, later tonight or tomorrow.

Wow, the way you explained how OTFAs believe is so right on! It's sad, don't you think?

I'm hoping you will be at FAF tonight and looking forward to our agape feast.

Now, I have to run and help someone then get ready for Maryann to pick me up.

God Bless you Max,
DtB
Max
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll be there, DtB. Always enjoy seeing your
beaming face! -MC
Patti
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,
The entire struggle over "righteousness by faith" in the SDA church was over those two words, "imputed" and "imparted." Waggoner and Jones failed to distinguish between and separate the two. (Just as the Roman church fails to distinguish between and separate the work of Jesus Christ FOR us and the work of the Holy Spirit IN us.) This is why they "missed the boat" and slipped into pantheism, and why the SDA church, who now canonize the writings of Jones and Waggoner--even the pantheistic ones--do not have the Gospel of the Reformation.

Remember, RC doctrine claims that justification is God actually making the believer righteous, instead of, as the reformers claimed, simply declaring us righteous.

An actual infusion of righteousness into our beings would be an "imparted righteousness." The RC argument is that God would not leave His work undone; He declares us righteous for the sake of Jesus Christ, but He doesn't stop at "mere" forgiveness; He begins His work of making us holy. (Since this is a part of our salvation, we can never be too certain that our salvation has been fully accomplished, because, anyone who is honest with himself knows that he is still full of sin.) The arguments continue: He came to save us FROM our sin, not IN our sin; that the Gospel is the power IN US to actually help us conquer sin in the flesh, with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course. This is also SDA doctrine. Justification just "gets us started" and then God does his "real work" of cleansing the heart and mind. Bear in mind that any righteousness that is "infused" to us is an "imparted" righteousness. It is something that is actually and literally given to us.

The reformers had no part of this. Their claim was that justification was God forgiving sinners and declaring them holy for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone. When we believe in Him (Romans 1, 3, 4), His righteousness, His perfect obedience, is credited to our account. This is "imputed" righteousness. Therefore, since we are regarded in Christ as perfect and holy, we can approach the throne of grace with boldness; our salvation is based upon a perfect obedience alone and not upon anything inside of us. Even our faith is too weak to save us; we are dependent upon the grace (sola gratia) of God alone in forgiving us for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ.

The SDAs (and the Catholics, and many other Arminian groups) cling to the teachings of Jones and Waggoner that "righteousness by faith" means both the "imparted" and "imputed." Meaning that we can actually become holy {"imparted" righteousness") in our sinful flesh "by faith." (a serious misunderstanding of the word "faith"--"Faith is evidence of things unseen." If we can see it or experience it, it is not of faith.). However, the Pauline Gospel makes it very clear that the righteousness by which we are saved is the obedience of the One, which is credited to the account of those who trust in Him.

You asked, above, if God "imparts" power to us. Absolutely. But not the "righteousness that comes of faith." It is strictly "imputed" to us. We had no part in it, nor shall we ever. It is nothing less than the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ Himself. We remain dependent upon His righteousness, His mercy, His grace until we see Him face to face.

In a nutshell:

Righteousness by faith = the imputed merits of Jesus Christ
The work of the Holy Spirit in us = the imparted power of God to perceive spiritual things, to believe on Jesus Christ, to persevere, and to tell others of His great saving act.

But the righteousness that saves us is never an "imparted" righteousness. It is imputed only, credited to the account of those who had no part in it for the sake of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. To Whom be all glory and honor and praise forever.

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