| Author | Message | ||
| Jtree |
Stumbling Stones or Stairsteps? "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling,and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.î 1 Peter 2.6-8 I believe, according to the Scriptures, that the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished the redemption of Godís elect when He died as our Substitute under the wrath of God, that His blood paid our debt, satisfied the justice of God, and effectually put away our sins forever, that all for whom Christ died shall be with Him in glory. However, there are many who do not believe the testimony of Scripture regarding the death of Christ. Rather than believing on Him unto life everlasting, trusting Christ alone for redemption and righteousness, the vast majority of religious people in this world stumbles over the gospel doctrine of the atonement and perish in their sins. As He is revealed in Holy Scripture, the Lord Jesus Christ is to reprobate, unbelieving, self-righteous men a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. And this is by divine arrangement. God has so written His Word that reprobate men will get tripped up by it, and stumble over the Scriptures as stumbling stones to hell. God has fixed it, so that those who are determined to cling to their own righteousness, who are determined not to submit themselves to the righteousness of God established by, revealed in, and found in Christ alone, will stumble over Him and fall into hell. This is exactly what happened to those Jews described in Rom. 9:31-33. "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling-stone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed." Those very same Scriptures, which, by the blessing of God the Holy Spirit, are as stair steps to Godís elect, are stumbling stones to the reprobate and unbelieving. | ||
| Cindy |
Joshua, Thanks for your post above, and also your experiences you wrote about on the other thread. I've always loved Michael Card's words to his songs; just a part of his "Scandalon", (talking of the scandal of believing in Jesus, "the rock of offence"): "HE will be the Truth that will offend them one and all A STONE that makes men stumble; and a ROCK that makes them fall.... Many will be broken so that HE can make them whole; And many will be crushed and lose their own soul..." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
I will enter this discussion first by testifying that Jesus is the corner stone of my life. I can not get up in the morning and face my day without him. I rely only on him for my salvation. Everyone of us will have a little bit different believe. And I hope to respect all beliefs in this discussion. I am for sure to some that my belief and way of living would put me in the coral with the reprobates as you call them. In preparing to speak I read the entire 2nd chapter of Peter in the KJV, NIV and the MESSAGE. I read the entire chapter to get the best context of the texts you recited above. First I would like to make a comment on one point you said: "God has so written His Word that reprobate men will get tripped up by it, and stumble over the Scriptures as stumbling stones to hell. God has fixed it, so that those who are determined to cling to their own righteousness, who are determined not to submit themselves to the righteousness of God established by, revealed in, and found in Christ alone, will stumble over Him and fall into hell. This is exactly what happened to those Jews described in Rom. 9:31-33." My gut belief and I don't have a scripture to back it is that as a parent, I can not imagine my heavenly Father setting up a system in which we would stumble into hell. And I do not see that these scriptures say they will stumble into hell. Years ago I decide if the Bible was refering to God as my Father in heaven he had to be the ultimate parent. As a not so ultimate parent, I could not imagine remotely seting up a system in which the tripping up would have such grave consequences for my child. Yes there are lessons to be learned by stumbling, struggling, making big mistakes, ect.... But NEVER NEVER would I set up a system in which the downward spiral led to hell. My belief is that as long as folks are determined not to follow Jesus, they will keep messing it up big time. I like the MESSAGE translation "They trip and fall because they refuse to obey, just as predicted." Now these texts open that can of the predestined issue. I won't go there anymore than to see that my belief is that it is predicted that you will end up a certain way if you choose that way. Unbelief is destined to result in eternal destruction. I will go neither to the elitist or the self defeatest attitude of predestined people. I will finish my thoughts in the next post. Mr. Anthony is out of the tub and needs to be read to and put down for the night. | ||
| Max |
Salvation is a floor, not a ceiling. | ||
| Valm |
I am back with part two on my thoughts. Max you are succinct. And my response is Thank God there is no ceiling. I will try also to be succinct but won't be as successful as Max. On to Romans 9. I believe it wasn't Israel's attempt to keep the law that gave them God's rejection, it was their lack of faith. My Life Application Bible commentary suggests that Paul is not rejecting obedience to the law but "the attempt to use the law to put God in one's debt" It is the "I did this and this and this and well you owe me attitude." I would have to read the entire chapter and perhaps Romans 10 also to have a larger opinion than that. Now what I find interesting about this discussion is that if I asked my SDA family to read I Peter chapter 2 they would come away with a different meaning. We would agree on Jesus being the corner stone. However, they would not view this text in the context of salvation by faith only. They would not read into it anything about people living under their own righteousness. They would see this as a text to follow Jesus in the way in which they know or understand to follow Jesus. And I could not be critical of that. Perhaps this is what you mean when you say: "the vast majority of religious people in this world stumbles over the gospel doctrine of the atonement and perish in their sins." I think many formers would agree that the meaning behind Jesus being their cornerstone is the acceptance of his atonement for our sins as a complete act. Now comes the part in which I feel somewhat at disease in conversing with everyone. There is an obvious devision of point of view and/or misunderstanding of what happens after receiving or accepting this incredible gift of grace God has given us. As for myself, I have found a striking pattern in these wonderful letters our pioneer fathers wrote. They first speak of GRACE and then prompt us forward to live the type of lives God wishes us to live. Some say this is going back on our works, I believe it is going forward to live the life God intended for me. Some may say that those who view themselves as moving forward are only moving back and stumbling over the same old stones again. Someone once on this line said something that I will always remember they live FROM VICTORY not TO VICTORY. I appreciate that quote. I have this incredible gift (JESUS as my CORNERSTONE) therefore I will live the life he intended for me. This is not Grace but it is Grace therefore. I will close my thought for the night with a quick qoute from the message translation: " But you are the ones chosen by God, chosen for the high calling of priestly work, chosen to be a holy people, God's instruments to do his work and speak out for him, to tell others of the night and day difference he made for you; from nothing to something; from rejected to accepted. Friends this world is not your home, so don't make yourselve cozy in it. Don't indulge your ego at the expense of your soul. Live an exemplary life among the natives so that your actions will refute their prejudices. Then they'll be won over to God's side and be there to join in the celebration when he arrives." There is a pillow with my name on it!!! I might be back to this tomorrow because I did just scann some interesting thoughts in my life application Bible that I wish to mull over. Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Valerie...I like how you worded it above: "They first speak of GRACE and then prompt us forward to live the type of lives God wishes us to live. Some say this is going back on our works, I believe it is going forward to live the life God intended for me." I think it is going forward, living always IN the gospel message of absolute grace! Jesus's PERFECTION always, always, covers us each step of the way! As you say, it is not a "Grace...but" issue, It is a "GRACE...Therefore" attitude! Thank-you. Have a great day....:-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Salvation occurs at the beginning of the journey, not at the end. | ||
| Max |
I like very much Valerie's insight into the pattern of the scriptural letters of Paul and the other NT writers. They first speak of grace, then they go FORWARD, not backward, "to prompt us forward to live the type of lives God wishes us to live." | ||
| Max |
Thanks, JR, for starting this wonderful thread. | ||
| Max |
Cindy, Beautiful perception: "going forward, living always IN the gospel message of absolute grace." | ||
| Max |
IF CHRIST HAS ALREADY WON, WHY FIGHT ON HIS SIDE? Question: Why would Christ ask us to fight a war he's already won? Answer: He wouldn't. He fought and won the battle to give us the Holy Spirit on the cross. Before the cross there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not even in Abraham. Here's our battle: "Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desiers of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is CONTRARY to the Spriit, and the Spirit desires what is CONTRARY to the sinful nature. They are in CONFLICT with each other, so that you do not do what you want." --Paul, Galatians 5:16-17. | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Max, on my lunchtime break... I didn't have time this morning to say I liked your comment that "salvation is a floor, not a ceiling." There is a spaciousness. a wideness in God's mercy; we are free to stretch and grow up! Somehow, we who have been so tied down with "commandment-keeping, end-time remnant, legalistic theology'" have a hard time realizing there is a freeing area way beyond legalism! You think it's going to take you back into a works-based program, but the more you understand grace the more you see Christ's sufficiency alone and you can rest on that "floor". I think it is a very green pasture! You can kick back and enjoy Him, forget the legalism and only pray to be daily open to His Spirit. And of course!! this is ALWAYS because of your other comment, "salvation occurs at the beginning of the journey, not the end." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Cindy, I'm going to start a new thread for the metaphors and similies of grace. -MC | ||
| Rayna |
"Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."Council of Trent" 1547 This is the Roman Catholic Teaching today. I believe this is what this site is teaching, from reading the above posts. "The Reformation Day Statement" by the "Trinity Foundation" which states the belief of the Reformers in the matter of justification is as follows: "Justification is strictly the act of God's grace alone in which the Lord declares legally righteous those who are his own by the imputation to them of the perfect righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ alone, through faith alone". Justification before God is a purely forensic act and not an act of transformation" This is not only true at the beginning of the Christian life but as long as we live on this earth, as we will always be sinners in God's sight. We are justified before Him because of our belief in His Son Jesus, and for His mercy extended to us in the acceptance of His Son. We are all only saved because of God's mercy given to us in the gift of His Son. During the period of the Reformation many Christians were persecuted and killed for this belief, because it is the truth of the true gospel. This is my belief and I can believe no other. I can only accept the gospel of the imputed righteousness of Jesus alone. I do not preach myself or anything that is happening in my life as part of the gospel. "To God be the glory forever and ever, amen." | ||
| Cindy |
Rayna, Hi! :-)) Thank you for posting: "Justification is strictly the act of God's grace alone in which the Lord declares legally righteous those who are his own by the imputation to them of the perfect righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ alone, through faith alone. Justification before God is a purely forensic act and not an act of transformation." I agree... The Gospel is CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR US!!... HE IS OUR ALL-SUFFICIENT SUBSTITUTION; the PERFECT LIFE WE NEED for all eternity, given to us as a GIFT! I think this site HAS been saying this! :-)) Christ Alone is our ground of assurance, our only hope that we as unworthy sinners (in need of a sinless Savior) will ever have!! We never go beyond our need of His Righteousness alone... Living IN grace... Living IN the VICTORY ALREADY WON FOR US BY THE CROSS OF CHRIST!... we have ASSURANCE and Confidence to live then, (therefore!) in the reality of saved-right-now!! sons and daughters of God! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Rayna, What is your approach to over half of the New Testement which encourages us to move forward in to the life that God wishes us to have here on earth? Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
I used to attend the "10th Presbyterian Church" in downtown Philadelphia where I heard some marvelous sermons on the message of the Cross... (This is the place where Donald Grey Barnhouse, the pastor there in the 1950's, met with Adventist officials to discuss their doctrines. Eventually the Adventist book "Questions on Doctrine" was published. Some in the evangelical world concluded that although Adventism had some strange doctrines, it could not be considered a cult (Walter Martin was involved in this too...I think Steve at one time was in contact with Walter Martin's daughter to see if his assessment of Adventism had changed any before he had died.?...) This caused a minor uproar for others who thought that Adventism should still be classified a cult. And I know that the "historical" (or as Max puts it "hysterical" :-))) Adventist fringe element thinks true Adventist theology went astray at the time of these meetings by publishing this watered-down version of "the Remnant Truth"... Anyway!!... I remember James Boice, (the senior pastor there for the last 30-plus years, who unfortunately died last year); his wording the term "justification: "Justification by GRACE is the ACT OF GOD by which HE DECLARES SINNERS TO BE RIGHTEOUS! by GRACE ALONE through FAITH ALONE BECAUSE OF CHRIST ALONE!" This man always put JESUS as our central focus, and yet he always preached the awesome responsiblity we have living under the Cross! He would often say there is no Christian life without the Cross! I also agree with John Stott (he has a great book called "The Cross of Christ)...He says, "THE MESSAGE OF THE ATONEMENT IS NOT TO BE FOUND IN OUR PENITENCE WORKED BY THE SIGHT OF CALVARY,... BUT RATHER ON WHAT GOD DID, WHEN IN CHRIST ON THE CROSS, HE TOOK OUR PLACE AND BORE OUR SIN." To me, realizing and Resting in this Good News, we go from GUILT to GRACE to GRATITUDE! Always staying and living IN that grace bestowed once-and-for-all at the Cross of Christ! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Cindy, Profoundly spoken. Valerie | ||
| Jtree |
I want to add to Max's statement... "Salvation is a floor, not a ceiling." I want to say, "When God closes the door, LOOK FOR A WINDOW" Dallas Holmes |
