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Kelly
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My "former Adventist" friend told me about this site a while back. I just never checked it out until now. You people are so loving, I can see why "my friend" enjoy the fellowship here. You guys are not at all like the Adventist church makes you out to be. I haven't seen any of the "I'll get you back attitude" that the church wants us to think the people who leave have. AND, you all seem to genuinely seek truth. I'd always heard that all of you were just looking for a Biblical way to do as you pleased.

I don't know why I've seemed so fun to talk with. But I've enjoyed you all as well!!

I will send you my anon-email, I've seen your "easy to remember one" several times now!!

I've been using the Bible study handbook about David for my Bible study time. I used it for three days now and have kept thinking that something was missing while I was studying it. I figured what it was while ago. It's all scripture!!! :) (It contains no ones quotes) I've never studied the Bible with just scripture for references. I have been tempted to "cheat" and read what E.W. says, but I'M NOT GOING TO! I'm going to give myself three complete months without it.
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You've swum into the gospel fishing net, I fear.
Too late to turn back now. Blessings!
Valm
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly,

My only wish to "get back" to other Adventists is to have them back in my life. Since being out of Adventism, I am somewhat a partial member of my family.

I do not wish to reap anger on them. I just wish to reclaim them from the hold Adventism has on them.

There will be times when some of us will express anger. It is not at people but at a mesed up system that robbed us of many peaceful night and days. It is of a system which has our loved ones in captive.

Good luck on your three month endeavour, I will be praying for you!!!!
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SDA-ism and White-ism are a thralldom or
"bewitchment" (Galatians 3:1) and an
addiction infinitely harder to break than
smoking or heroin use. For only the pure
grace of God can break it and set you free.
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti, Hi! :-)) Very good on EGW's prophetic "gift"...

You wrote about S.D.A's:

"they are wrong in denying that role to
anyone else in history since John. And they are wrong in promoting that they are THE true church because of Ellen. God's true remnant will have a live and thriving gift of prophecy, a zeal for the Gospel, not merely a dead prophet."

This is right! Christ alone is the True Remnant and ALL of us who believe and trust in Him are grafted in... and included in that wonderful "remnant!"

And, I agree with you... possessing this "testimony of Jesus" is really good stuff!

Grace always,
Cindy
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2001 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Kelly, Hi... :-)) I just wanted to encourage you in regards to something you wrote above. You wrote:

"I realized that whatever I decide to think within my mind about religion will have to remain there. On the outside I will have to remain an Adventist. To not do so would be destructive to my marriage, my children. My hands are tied, my course in life is set by my circumstances. I can possibly change within my thoughts, but that's it!"

I understand this thinking very much! Sometimes I have been so impatient, wanting to scream when discussing those crazy doctrines...

Other times I would almost wish I had never questioned the theology; I thought life would be easier as far as friends, relatives, and just my whole cultural up-bringing was concerned... ( you know, there IS a type of warped "security" in those rules and regulations...)

But then!! GOD'S ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL GRACE would come at me again, and I'd realize that I would never want to go back, never want to return to my former, limited way of thinking.

The freedom, and inner joy and peace and confidence! in being in Christ alone, the Truth,--not some denomination that says they are the "truth"--is something that grows more into your being, and becomes more and more satisfying.

Your FEAR is gradually replaced by that Perfect Love of Jesus!

God does not expect us to move faster than He guides us. He alone will give us the COURAGE and right timing in all these changes!

Courage to speak up... if that is what is needed, at that time and place.

God can untie your hands; He can change your circumstances! You will be amazed at how He can work things out if you continue to trust Him...

I agree with Max that only the Pure Grace of God can break this addiction....

Jesus will be with you each day. Keep trusting Him even when you can't see far ahead.

I like what I read once...

...that following God's will is something like driving at night. The headlights give you about two hundred feet of light. That's all you need. As you advance, you keep getting just enough more to move confidently ahead.

Jeremiah 29:11 says, "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

Our HOPE and our FUTURE are SECURE in Christ!

Oswald Chambers writes:

"God's purpose for you is that you depend upon Him and HIs power NOW; that you see Him walking on the waves--no shore in sight, no success, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because you see HIM."

Grace always,
Cindy
Denisegilmore
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valerie,

Somewhere on some other thread, that I cannot find, you had asked for more verses pertaining to the Holy Spirit being our seal of God. I found one that I hadn't noticed before and I don't know if it's already been put up but here it is:

2 Corinthians 1:20-22

"For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through Him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God.

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He annointed us, SET HIS SEAL OF OWNERSHIP ON US, and put His Spirit in our hearts AS A DEPOSIT, GUARANTEEING WHAT IS TO COME."

God Bless you,
DtB
Max
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 4:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderful text, DtB.
Valm
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 8:09 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Shelleyp, Shereen, Therese, and Korinna,

Where have you been? If you are reading the posts, say Hello. I think the four of you could offer much to this discussion, so if you are out there, join the conversation!

And I am interested in knowing how the four of you are. Take very good care and God Bless.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2001 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Maryann,

Better late than never on my impressions of Ezekiel. I, like you, have not alot of OT knowledge. I look forward to buying my study Bible complete with background info on all of the books of the Bible. I think that would add light to what I am reading (the time, the setting, the intended audience, the purpose, etc. )

I hold to my first comment that I am glad I read it through New Covenant eyes. Chapter 18 and 33 sure let the Israelites know they are behaving poorly and God is not about to cut them slack about it. I find chapter 36 interesting. In it Israel isn't doing the doing. It is God. He is cleansing his people, he is giving them a new heart. It sounds like a prophesy of what God will do for us.

I found Chapter 33 interesting. It sounds like where the JW's get their "icon" or "mascot" the Watchtower from. I am wondering if they read chapter 36. Just a side comment.

Anyhow my conclusion is: I don't know enough about the book of Ezekiel in its entirity to give an educated comment. I would apporach it with New Covenant eyes. And in the end it appears that for the Israelites to ever get out of the mess they are in GOD will have to DO IT for them.

I think it would be interesting to study more on these OT matters in the context of the messages of the NT. Perhaps when I get out to get my new study Bible we could start a thread and study some of this chapter by chapter.

Valerie who is hopefully better late than never.
Therese
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Valerie,

I've been reading some of the posts, but not as frequently as I had been before. I've been busy. This thread has been very interesting.

The last post I see is Jan 19. Did conversation with Kelly stop or is it going on in another thread or e-mail? I don't see her name anywhere else.

I'm sorry to hear Max will not be contributing as much. He has such a wealth of knowledge. I hope you reconsider, Max. Your words are a ministry to us.

I've been spiritually in a void. Kind of numb. Don't have the energy to pursue this spiritual investigation. Also feel kind of burned out on people right now. Guess I need a break from it all.

God bless,

Therese
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 7:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been spiritually in a void. Kind of numb. Don't have the energy to pursue this spiritual investigation. Also feel kind of burned out on people right now. Guess I need a break from it all.

What you need, Therese, is a good dose of Gospel:

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him
."
10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,
15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead.
20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,
21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
22 This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."
23 The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification
.
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2001 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Therese, I am so glad to here from you. I haven't heard from Kelly or Korinna. And I hope to hear from them soon also.

It is a hard process for some. Two steps forward one step back. The strong will to leave what is toxic but the "what if" fears that tenaciously hold on. The overwhelming concerns of how is one going to live outside of the complete lifestyle of Adventism.

Almost everyone has felt a spiritual void at one time or another. The wonderful thing about the Gospel mesage is that it is not dependent on our feelings.

To help me when I am in a slump I have a notebook of my favorite Bible texts. And they help.

One is 2 Cor 1:22 He annointed us, set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guarantteeing what is to come.

We are SEALED as GODS OWN and have HIS SPIRIT in our hearts. It doesn't get any better than that.

You take care and you come back to us whenever you have a question or need support.

I will write more later. I worked a 10 hour day and have alot of paper work to do. Go to bed tonight knowing that you are God's own.

Valerie
Kelly
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone, I'm sorry that I just "dropped out" of the conversation with no explanation. There are times that it will be difficult to get on here unobserved, I suppose I'm paranoid because I feel like I'm being watched. Just using the non-SDA material as a study guide has to be done "on the sly". I've been continuing my study of David but have been somewhat discouraged by some of the other participants in the study (a few of them are VERY charistmatic needless to say I was shocked-not too many charismatics in my SDA church HA!) In short I felt very uncomfortable during the prayer time with five or six people saying "Yes, Jesus", "Thank you Jesus" and "Oh, sweet Jesus" it was so distracting that I couldn't even tell you what the lady that was praying said. So, I decided that I couldn't go back there. But it must be God's will for me to go to this study because the very same day I was told that a different church was doing this same study, so I'm going to go there this week.

My former SDA friend has dropped all doctrinal discussions with me for some reason. She told me that she felt very convicted by the verse in Romans 14 that says whatever you believe regarding these things is between you and God and that you are to keep these issues to yourself. I feel sort of abandoned by her. She doesn't know that I have been visiting this site or that I have been studying on my own with scripture only. She's begged me to do that for over a year and I just can't get past my pride to tell her I have taken her advice especially since it has raised some questions in my mind. I want to find the answers and not be swayed by her opinion. I don't want to leave the impression that she has abandoned me completely because she continues to send me emails, sharing her family life with me. I have to admit I am a little confused as to why she dropped the conversation concerning religion. When I asked her she told me that the issues of religion were rather unimportant it was the issue of christianity that was vital. I'm not sure I understand these as separate issues, how can one be a christian without religion to guide them? Wouldn't this leave one to be like the world? She seemed to press upon being certain that I understood the gospel message and telling me to read John.

(Excuse my ramblings but I'm just recalling the different points of our conversation that I don't quite understand.)

Another thing she said was that the salvation, of the gospel message, that we receive requires nothing from us. But we have to change when we receive salvation, we have to obey God's laws don't we? If we don't try to obey God's law, isn't that proof that we aren't saved? After salvation we must be obedient, right? If not, then we are just using our "saved" status as an excuse to do as we please. the relationship to our salvation and the requirement of keeping the law is difficult for me to understand.

I had asked about Saul and whether he was saved or not, my friend says that he is saved and uses this scripture for proof. th spirit of Samuel is speaking to Saul-"and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." Of course, I have been taught the doctrine of soul sleep so all this means to me is that Saul, Jonathan and the rest of his sons are in the grave and so is Samuel, so they are now "together". However, I did run across a verse in Isaiah 14:9 that troubles me and my belief on soul sleep. "The grave belos is all astir to meet you at your coming, it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you- all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones all those who were kings over the nations. They will alll respond, they will say to you, You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us." Who is this referring to? My friend told me that it is the death of Belshazzar in 539 AD, but I think it is a reference to something else. Regardless, of who it refers to it seems to say that the wicked dead have consciousness and awareness of others that depart from life, actually speaking to them!!! Of course, this concept conflicts with my belief on the subject of soul death and the conditions of hell. Any comments?

I'll check back when I can. Thanks everyone.

Kelly
Max
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kelly,

So we at FAFF are "forbidden fruit" for you,
huh?

You've raised a lot of issues on one compact
post. I'll only comment on one: something your
non-SDA friend said:

^^Another thing she said was that the
salvation, of the gospel message, that we
receive requires nothing from us.^^

That's what "cultural Christianity" says, what
Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls "cheap grace"
Christianity. I have no idea what your friend
meant by that. But, taken out of its context and
only looking on "the face" of it, it couldn't
possibly be more unscriptural. To receive the
gospel message requires nothing less than
EVERYTHING from us, every one of us.

^^Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone
would come after me, he must deny himself
and take up his cross and follow me."^^
Matthew 16:24 NIV.

^^34 "Do not suppose that I have come to
bring peace to the earth. I did not come to
bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn `a man against his
father, a daughter against her mother, a
daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
36 a man's enemies will be the members of
his own household.'
37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother
more than me is not worthy of me; anyone
who loves his son or daughter more than me
is not worthy of me;
38 and anyone who does not take his cross
and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and
whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.^^
Matthew 10.

"Cheap grace" cultural (worldly) Christianity
knows absolutely nothing of the true power of
the gospel, the power to make martyrs.

Joining a church can be a way of leaving,
rather that following Christ.

Peace to you, despite everything,

MC
Ý
Valm
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly,

I wished I could give you a great big sisterly hug in person. But this is the best I can do under the situation: (((((((((**))))))))))) !

I couldn't help but laugh about your first experience in praying with charasmatic people. It brought back memories of mine. It is a bit distracting. Look at it as a cultural difference and you will be more comfortable with it. Ask yourself if there is anywhere in the Bible that would say what they are doing is wrong. There isn't that I know of. Ask if it is just outside of your comfort zone. And then decide if that is a part of you that you wish to honor the way it is or expand on. (your comfort zone)

We have had a very lively discussion of lately about salavation, grace, how Chrisitian behavior fits in, ect.. here at the FAF. I was wondering if you were observing this with mouth wide open.

I wish to let you know that there are varying opinions on this forum. Sometimes the conversation appears to border on heated and I worry about what viewers must think. I hope that if you witness this you will be able to learn from all of this and come to a better understanding yourself.

My belief is that salvation was a completed act given to us by God and that the Christian life I lead flows from it. I follow, but fall short of the New Covenant view of law; which is Jesus' commandments Love your neighbour as yourself and Love God with all my heart soul and might. I will forever lean on Jesus gift of grace for my salvation. I am presently studying what I refer to as the "Mother of Grace Epistles" Galatians. I have put a couple of paraphrases from Galatians on the thread about the Gospel being robust. I am finding Galatians a great book on the subject of salvation and grace.

I again can not reccommend enough the online book New Covenant Christians found under the links portion of this site.

I am sorry that you feel abandoned by your friend. I don't think that is her intention. She is probably concerned about wearing out her spiritual welcome and wishes to keep your friendship. It sounds like she values your friendship very much.

You sound like you are rambling only to TO YOURSELF. I see you as a person that is mentally multitasking on many spiritual matters at once. I do not know off hand about the verse you quote on soul sleep. We do have a thread here on that subject when you feel ready to study it.

I took the position on soul sleep and many other issues of: Does having a position on this issue really matter with reguards to my salvation? Will having a position at this time be of significance to me? And on soul sleep I had the thought that it would neither change my view of God or how I did things at the present time. So that issue I put on the back burner. All of these matters do not have to be tackled simultaneously. I would suggest focusing on what matters the most to you at this time.

Kelly I will remind you that you are sealed by God as his own forever. May he continue to bless you in your search for the Gospel message.

Valerie
Kelly
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I fear that you have taken my friends comment "salvation requires nothing from us" a little TOO much at face value. The discussion that I was having with my friend was over Sabbath observance and the 10 commandments that these were required from us as part of our salvation. Her actual reply was "our salvation requires no works of the law in order to be in effect". (I stated it too simply. I know the exact words she told me and I also know the "exact" words that I thought she told me! They are completely different concepts!) However, I still feel as if this is a permission to do as you please.

As far as the "higher law of the Spirit" love God and love thy neighbor as thyself to me these are just amplifications of the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are in no wise cast out, they are just expanded.
Valm
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there might be people who think just that, salvation requires nothing from us. That is why I wondered if you read the past weeks posts with mouth gaping open.

Remember Kelly when you read these posts, we are all just people. I can tell you what I believe and I will do my best to respect what others believe.

Kelly, if you are ever ready to "do lunch" or visit. You let me know. I am not charasmatic so I think I would be within your comfort level! :)
Cindy
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi! :-)) To me salvation is a profound and wonderful mystery...

I do think it "requires" nothing of us...it is freely offered, a GIFT from God... and, actually, the Gift OF GOD HIMSELF!!

We can only gratefully believe, accepting and trusting in Jesus' FINISHED work on the Cross.

And yet, there is a sense in which, it involves "everything" from us!

It is hard to explain (hence our "discussions" here...;-)).

It is so good to believe in!... that we want to give it our "everything!"

I guess that is why I go back again and again to the Finished Work of Christ!

This message of the Cross, "foolish" and "weak" though it may appear, has all the POWER and WISDOM needed to motivate us to believe, trust, and then give it all we have in following...and always following Jesus alone.

Salvation--eternal life--is a "DONE" deal because of Jesus' PERFECTION, ALONE!!

Any "doing" on our part is only as already redeemed and precious children of our KING!

The reality of living as sons and daughters totally beloved and accepted by our GOD right now! is an awesome responsibility and privilege...

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Friend Kelly,

Yes, I certainly did take your friend wrong. You
may feel as though requiring "no works of the
law in order to be in effect" as "permission to
do as you please." But do you think your firend
feels that way? Now, with your explanation, I
don't think she does. I'd love to converse with
her over FAFF.

Max of the Cross

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