| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^There are many ways to deny the Gospel. Many Christians likewise the deny the finished work of Christ by saying that He is still completing His work of salvation IN US.^^ And Paul is one of them who says that He is IN US still transforming us with ever- increasing glory ."Though he doesn't deny the gospel in so saying. Here's the scriptural proof: "Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil [legalism] is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect [or behold] the Lord's glory, ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO HIS LIKENESS WITH EVER-INCREASING GLORY, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." NIV 2 Corinthians 3:16-18. "You, however, are controlled, not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives IN YOU. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is IN YOU, your body is dead becasue of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living IN YOU, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give lifee to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives IN YOU." NIV Romans 8:9-11. Conclusion: Christ's SALVATION is complete, yes, but his transformation of us is ONGOING. And it is ongoing IN US. Blessings, MC | ||
| Rayna |
"We therefore do make this definition of a Christian, that a Christian is not he which hath no sin, or feeleth no sin, but he to whom God imputeth not his sin because of his faith in Christ. This doctrine bringeth strong consolation to afflicted consciences in serious and inward terrors." Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians page 138 "Hereby now we may see, how faith justifieth without works, and yet notwithstanding, how mputation of righteousness is also necessary. Therefore it is necessary that we should have the imputation of righteousness, which we obtain through Christ and for Christ's sake, who is given unto us and received of us by faith. In the meantime, as long as we live here, we are carried and nourished in the bosom of the mercy and long-sufferance of God, until the body of sin be abolished, and we raised up as new creatures in that great day. then shall there be new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness shall dwell. In the meanwhile under this heaven sin and wicked men do well, and the godly also have sin dwelling in them. For this cause Paul complaineth of sin which remaineth in the saints; yet notwithstanding he saith afterwards, that there is no condamnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Now, how shall these things, so contrary and repugnant, be reconciled together, that sin in us is no sin, that he which is damnable shall not be condemned, that he which is rejected shall not be rejected, that he which is worthy of the wrath of God and everlasting death shall not be punished? The only reconciler hereof is the mediator between God and man, even the man Jesus Christ, as Paul saith: 'There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus'. Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians Page 229 "So pernicious and pestilent a poison it is for a man to trust in his own righteousness, and to think himself to be clean. But the godly, because they feel the uncleanness of their own hearts, therefore they cannot trust to their own righteousness. This feeling so maketh them to stoop, and so humbleth them, that they cannot trust to their own good works, but are constrained to fly unto Christ their mercy-seat and only succour, who hath not a corrupt and sinful but a most pure and holy flesh, which he hath given for the life of the world. In him they find a sound and perfect righteousness. Thus they continue in humility, not counterfeit and monkish, but true and unfeigned, because of the uncleanness which yet remaineth in their flesh: for the which if God would straitly judge them, they should be found guilty of eternal death. But because they lift not up themselves proudly against God, but with a broken and contrite heart humbly acknowledging their sins, and resting wholly upon the benefit of the mediator Christ, they come forth into the presence of God, and pray that for his sake their sins may be forgiven them; God spreadeth over them an infinite heaven of grace, anbd doth not impute unto them their sins for Christ's dake. "And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himseelf by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation." "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." II Corinthians 5: 18-21 "Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift" | ||
| Rayna |
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me". John 15:26 "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29 "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" John 6:47 "He that believeth on the son of God hath the witness in himself; he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave us His Son." "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." "These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." I John 10-13 | ||
| Rayna |
"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;" "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe, for there no difference": "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God," "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearnace of God:" "To declare I say, at this time his righteousness, that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:22-26 "But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, whom God imputeth righteousness without works," Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered," "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4:6-9 | ||
| Patti |
Amen, Rayna! Our salvation is based upon a righteousness that comes of \b(faith alone}. Thank you for your encouragement. | ||
| Patti |
Oops. Formatting error... One more time: (it always bears repeating) Our salvation is based upon a righteousness that comes by faith alone. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. | ||
| Max |
^^Our salvation is based upon a righteousness that comes by faith alone. Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ^^ These are true statements, they just don't apply to the non-elect. | ||
| Max |
HOW TO KNOW IF YOU'RE AMONG THE ELECT NIV Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. 13 [The ELECT] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many [the NON-ELECT] enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few [the ELECT] find it. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, The above quotation from Matthew 7:12-14 is one that my Mom uses to prove that ONLY a few REMNANT people are going to make it to heaven. She says if it were any other way, it would say; narrow is the gate to destruction and broad is the way that leads to life and lots of folk there will be to find it!!!!! Well, the Bible says that? So, what does it mean? I look in the phone book and see a lot of Churches and sometimes wonder if they are all farces as by the amount of Christian Churches and professing, wonderful, witnessing, faithful, devoted to Christ people it would seen to make the way rather wide to accomidate the vast quantities of righteous. Now, I'm not trying to get into God's head and figure Him out, but I would sorta think if so few people were going to find that narrow way and make it to heaven (as Mom predicts) God mighta autghta have cut His losses and returned a whole lota hundreds of years ago? To me it would be silly to have a revival and tell all those hungry people out there that there was a Savior that died for every one of ALL their sins and follow it up with: Well, that said, only a few of you will be able to squeeze through that gate because it is so narrow, so make a mad dash and see who are the fastest ones to get there! I'm not being frivolous! These verses have been pounded into my head since I was a little girl. So, since you brought them up, could you tell me your thoughts. I hope you understood where I was coming from;-)) IBC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Upon reading this post Maryann, another verse came to mind, I don't remember where it is in the Bible but it goes something like this: Many are called but few are chosen. Now I've been taught recently, in the last two years or so, that this reads in the original texts as something to this effect: Many are called but few chose it. Something to that effect. I don't know if this has any thing to do with your topic but had to type the first thing that came to my mind. God Bless you, DtB | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hopefully, someone will research this out. I'm tired now. Nite all or good morning to those of you who are day-birds...:)) God Bless everybody, Denise | ||
| Max |
Greeetings IBC, Yes, that text does sound discouraging, doesn't it? It could also be used to puff one's self up -- as OFTAs often do -- by claiming, as your mom does, that it proves they are the only ones saved. Well, we just can't rip that page out of the Bible, because they just keep printing more Bibles and it's unlikely that the American Bible Society is going to leave that text out of their press runs any time soon. I think the text DOES say elect = "narrow wayers" = remnant. It's just that Christ's "kingdom is not of this world." Meaning nobody really knows who's been elected from before the foundations of the earth were laid and who haven't. OFTAs tell us, "We're the only people who keep all Ten of the Ten Commandments, and so WE'RE the remnant." Well, by saying that they just proved they're NOT elect = "narrow wayers" = remnant, since by saying that they're committing the worst sin of all -- pride. MC | ||
| Cindy |
Yes, the only "pride" we can honestly possess is by humbly acknowledging our absolute need of Christ's righteousness, and accepting His gift of Perfection! Then... we CAN boldly say we are in "the remnant"--all those INCLUDED in JESUS, those who trust in Him alone for their salvation! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Rayna |
"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth." "But he, BEING FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, looked up and stedfastly into heaven, and saw the Glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." They they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord," And cast him out of the city, and stoned him, and the witnessess laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul." "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Lord lay not this sin to their charge. And when had had said this, he fell asleep." Acts 7: 55-60 | ||
| Patti |
This came across my screen today: ARE YOU PREACHING THE GOSPEL? Martyn Lloyd-Jones It is true that where sin abounded grace has much more abounded; well then, "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound yet further?" The true preaching of the gospel of salvation by grace alone always leads to the possibility of this charge being brought against it. There is no better test as to whether a man is really preaching the New Testament gospel than this, that some people might misunderstand it and mis-interpret it that it really amounts to this: that because you are saved by grace alone, it does not really matter at all WHAT you do, you can go on sinning all you like because it will redound all the more to the glory of grace. That is a very good test of gospel preaching. If my preaching of the gospel does not expose it to that misunderstanding, then it is not the gospel. Let me show you what I mean. If a man preaches justification by works, no one would ever raise the question. If he says, "If you want to go to heaven, you must stop committing sins, live a life filled with good works, and keep this up regularly and constantly until the end, then you will be a Christian and go to heaven when you die." Obviously, no one will accuse a man who preached like this of saying, "Let us continue in sin that grace may abound." But every preacher who preached the gospel has been accused of this (Including Paul)! They have all been accused of "antinomianism." I would say to all preachers: IF YOUR PREACHING OF SALVATION HAS NOT BEEN MISUNDERSTOOD IN THAT WAY, THEN YOU HAD BETTER EXAMINE YOUR SERMONS AGAIN, and you had better make sure that you really ARE preaching the salvation that is proclaimed in the New Testament to the ungodly, the sinner, to those who are dead in trespasses and sins, to those who are the enemies of God. There is a kind of dangerous element about the true presentation of the doctrine of salvation." | ||
| Cindy |
That is a good quote, Patti! I've posted part of it a couple of times here before... I found it a number of years ago in the wonderful book by Chuck Swindoll called "The Grace Awakening". There really is "a kind of dangerous element about the true presentation of the doctrine of salvation"! The message can be misunderstood because it is so good! But Christs' Finished and Perfect Satisfaction and Substitution FOR US at the Cross must still be proclaimed, despite the real possibility of misunderstanding. Here is the POWER and WISDOM of GOD!! Here, in trusting in the message of the Cross, is where we have gained our ACCESS to God and our ASSURANCE of eternal life! That is why we have said repeatedly here that we live IN Grace, gratefully, "therefore"... FROM a Complete Victory ALREADY WON FOR US BY JESUS!! (NOT "towards" a victory somewhere in the present... or the future... based on any performance of ours. Our only desire is to live in GRATITUDE to this "all-surpassing Grace" and humbly follow HIM! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Patti, In all honestly that is what I have been hearing you say when you preach the gospel (what is written in red) However, I question the logic? Leaving those in misunderstanding means you are preaching the Gospel message? Why leave a new born Christian in misunderstanding? Particularly when you can be clear and when understanding is so crucial to their happiness. This faulty logic reminds me of when the early SDA's decided that the mistake of 1844 was by God on purpose that they may be lead to the truth. It also reminds me of the SDA church claiming that prophecy is fullfilled because members are falling away. EGW said they would leave the church in the last days, they left the church, therefore EGW fullfilled a prophecy and so she must be a prophet. I am preaching the Gospel, people are misunderstanding it so therefore it must be the true Gospel message? Because someone else says so? I am sorry but I can not buy into the quote. To me it is a defense against error unfounded by reasonable logic. In addition, to my knowledge it could not be backed by the scriptures. I do not know who this person is who you quote. However, I do not consider him of any more intelligence than myself. He would have to say something alot more profound, based on logic and on scripture to get my attention. Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Valerie, :-)) Good morning...:-)) I read your comments and think I see your concerns as to the reasoning presented in that quote. We have come from some crazy prophetic reasoning, to be sure! And yet, I would agree with this man; I think he is speaking a true reality...that the teaching of Grace IS risky--it CAN be misunderstood! It may be taken to an unwise extreme... The little I know Of Martyn Lloyd-Jones comes from that book I mentioned, "The Grace Awakening", by Chuck Swindoll. If you haven't read it, I would enourage you to; it's an easy, down-to- earth book to read. (I love the chapter on Mephibosheth, which ends with the words, "The tablecolth of HIS GRACE will cover all our crippling needs." Wonderful!) This book was pivotal in my understanding of grace back 6-7 years ago... Swindoll writes on Martyn Lloyd-Jones...(in preface to from the passage that Patti posted above), "few evagelical British ministers would qualify as being more conservative than the late Martyn Lloyd-Jones, pastor of Westminster chapel for decades. As a staunch Calvinist of the Puritan school of thought Dr. Lloyd-Jones was a biblicist of the first order. His expositions represent a conservative position to the ultimate degree... Twelve years before his retirement and until the day he completed his ministry, the man taught the book of Romans from the historic Westminster Chapel pulpit. His expositions would be considered tedious by some, but no one could ever say they were casual or loose. And yet, in no uncertain terms Martyn Lloyd-Jones (of all people) states that preaching grace is not only risky, but the fact that some take it to an unwise extreme is proof that a minister is indeed preaching the true grace of God." Then Swindoll posts the passage above concerning his remarks on Pauls's question at the beginning of Roman 6, "...Are we to continue in sin that grace may increase?" In the book, this is also included in that passage from Martyn Lloyd Jones: "...Nobody has ever brought this charge against the Church of Rome, but it was brought frequently against Martin Luther; indeed that was precisely what the Church of Rome said about the preaching of Martin Luther. They said, 'This man who was a priest has changed the doctrine in order to justify his own marriage and his own lust', and so on. 'This man', they said, 'is an antinomian; and that is heresy,' That is the very charge they brought against him. It was also brought against George Whitefield two hundred years ago. It is the charge that formal dead Christianity--if there is such a thing--has always brought against the startling, staggering message, that God 'justifies the ungodly'..." It truely is a "startling, staggering message"... one we can all rejoice in! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Shereen |
Good Morning :-) I am having a problem with the above postings. Patti, I have scanned, read and reread your post. I have went away and thought about it and came back to read it again. I find that I am confused. Now, I am not a stupid woman but I am "simple". By saying "simple" I mean without complication. That is how I like my gospel, without complication. Any time I read or hear anything confusing or complicated beyond my understand, it is written or spoken by man/woman. Now Jesus is another story. He was very clear and uncomplicated. He even used parables to make it even clearer. When I read Jesus's words, I understand clearly and simply. It is no mystery, really. When I don't get it, I pray for clarity and wisdom. When I do finally get it, it really is simple. My understanding is that Jesus wouldn't come and speak in circles. It is plain and simple and you can't misunderstand it. People make it confusing. Shereen | ||
| Valm |
Dear Cindy, Your quote from the book: "but the fact that some take it to an unwise extreme is proof that a minister is indeed preaching the true grace of God." That can be read and interpreted from different points of views. Some folks would use this to say they are preaching the true grace of God. And that others are misunderstanding them, therefore they are preaching the true gospel message. I think the logic is distorted. Perhaps OTHERS are preaching the true grace of God and those folks are taking this wonderful message to an unwise an healthy extreme. I do not want this to be taken as I am pushing for an arguement. But the context of how this was brought up strikes me as drawing a line in the dirt and waiting for someone to cross it. Also on the above quote I will still maintain that it is a defense against either poor articulation of thought or false message within the person who is doing the preaching. I can not imagine that the true Gospel IN ITS ENTIRITY would lead people to Misunderstanding. |
