| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Uncle Milt,  (Uncle, indeed! Why, I am old enough to be your....um.... neighbor!) Can I get real nitpicky with you? Would you concur that "Preaching the Word" means the same as preaching Jesus Christ? Would agree that the Gospel is all about Jesus, and His all-sufficient work of salvation for us undeserving, depraved, and rebellious sinners? Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Patti: Not picking at all. I love objective definitions (sorry for the redundance). We need to define things in our circles. You did it beautifully. There is too much churchianese. We need to translate our language just as you did! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Uncle Milt. You are right. I did receive a blessing. | ||
| Valm |
Dear GA, I really appreciate the Uncle Milt story. I hope that when people call you that it brings back fond memory of the youth you have served. Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, My son's best friend's father turned out to be preaching things consistant with Kenneth Hagin and so on. My son wanted to know what they believe and why there seems to be a Biblical problem with it. I was able to tell him that it was about what his Gramma was involved with several years ago. He accepted that, as he lived through her attempting to teach him that stuff and hearing me come up with what I believed was a Biblical basis of reasons for the problems. The beginning of my trip from hell to heaven was a realization that Mom was all wet in her "word faith" belief. I didn't know the gospel at that time. I was clueless. Somehow though, I just knew that this picture was all wrong. I was fighting mad!!;-(( Grrrrrr I wasn't a Christian, but I'd be durned if MY kids were going to get sucked into this heresy!! I studied feverishly while working 60 to 80 hour work weeks. The more I learned about this "word faith" thing, the more nauseous I got. I had the basics of it down pretty well. Then I started to search for truth, or gospel as I now it know. It started with "getting saved" so I could continue in my lifestyle and ended some years later with the gospel, salvation by faith alone. There were many contributing factors to where I am now (the family of God). One of the factors was having to learn what was wrong with this "word faith" thing. There was also people, radio, tapes etc. Through this journey from hell to heaven, from the Holy Spirit beside me to, now, in me, I really value the knowledge that I gained. Uncle Milt, I have heard that counterfeit money illustration many times and I just don't like it. That is a personal thing for me and don't think that everyone needs to hold my view. After 13 years of marriage, my husband finally let me know that he was UPC! 13 years, he hid this!! I could not just present the gospel to him or his cronies, I had to research the cult to understand it and be half way knowledgable about it. Well, at least I know the basics of what he believes now and why. It didn't do any good as his Church has a strangle hold on him. BUT, when the kids ask about what Dad believes, I can say, "Dad doesn't believe in the Trinity and here's why." Now here is the principle of the Trinity as I understand it from the Bible. The kids accept this for the most part and if I only studied the gospel, I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CONTRAST THE DARKESS TO THE LIGHT!!!!! Now when Dad tries to tell them some heresy, the recognize it and don't buy it. If they didn't understand the UPC even a little bit, they would ask their Dad about stuff and he would then have the opportunity to poison them. NOOOOOOO, they DOOOOOOO recognize the error of their Dad's reliegion and I thank God for that. White gets pretty drab when that is all you see. When you contrast it with dark or black, the white suddenly leaps to a definitive WHITE. As Christians, we need to be armed to the teeth with the gospel and ALSO be educated in the ways of the cults so we can reach a hand down in the darkness they are in a let them see the light. I have this great book called,"What's With The Dude's at The Door?" By Johnson and White. It lines out a few of the cults and their big push. The book is written specifically for teenager's. Noooo, I'm a firm believer that you should know what the cults are fixing to toss at our kids so they can see the contrast and be inulated even more by the gospel and know they have the power of the Holy Spirit! | ||
| Billtwisse |
Greetings to all of my friends in the gospel! I have been away for a while due to personal and family commitments but I haven't forgot about any of you! Maryann: I certainly agree with your evaluation of oneness pentecostalism and its devastating opposition to genuine spiritual regeneration. Milton: First of all, I want to commend you for your faithfulness to the gospel! A few weeks ago, you revealed the fact that you refused to take translation work for Benny Hinn--in spite of the lucrative economic benefits. I stand in admiration of that type of dedication to gospel truth. I have rarely seen it. When push comes to shove, most leaders that I know who profess Christ have given in on these issues. I have seen pastors change professed doctrine time and time again, every time a better opportunity of employent presented itself. To give one example: a conservative Baptist pastor switched instantly to be employed as a progressive (AELC) Lutheran! The new church that he went to was popular, growing, and 'loaded.' Yet he claimed that his doctrine had not changed! Having said all of that, I want to express a serious challenge of the charismatic and pentecostal movements. Have the manifestations in these circles brought men/women to a deeper knowledge of gospel truth? I'm talking about sound doctrine with respect to Christology, soteriology, and the like. I'm sorry but I just don't see it. I might add that I could say the same thing about the whole 'prophecy' movement founded by Edward Irving and his 'disciple' J.N. Darby--including the new 'Left Behind' movie based on Tim LaHaye's fradulent best-seller. General Observation: If we praise men and commend them for 'something' that is really 'nothing,' we are not doing what the Lord would have us do. The wood, hay, and stubble that men/women attempt to lay on the foundation of Christ will be burned up in the judgment. Will our teaching be associated with it in some way or stand in sharp contrast to it? --Twisse | ||
| Valm |
Maryann, What is UPC? I am not coming up with it this morning. What a great title of a book, "What's with the Dude's at the Door." I agree that we need to know what the cults are fixing to toss at our kids so we can respond appropriately. We have to be equipped to protect our cubs! I appreciated Cindy's comment to my question on the other thread, How did we buy into the EGW line? And I think there is a great truth to the point that many buy into it because they do not know the Gospel mesage and are in awe of what appears to be a "prophet in their midst". This reminds me that my primary commission is to equip my children with the Gospel message lest they fall into another cult which impresses them with appearances. | ||
| Max |
Maryann, isn't UPC the United Parcel Church? | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Max, Thank-you for that absolutely wonderful observation, (and my belief also) that, as you wrote: "We preach neither faith nor grace -- if either is detached from "Christ on the cross." We preach "Christ on the cross" alone. That's it. That's our sole preaching function. And even that is a gift of God." CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR US really is our message, one we can rejoice in...ALL Righteousness flows from Calvary! :-)) I've always thought, Max, that underneath all of our "discussions", that we are indeed "kindred spirits"... :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Lori |
Maryann, This goes back to your question--how do "natives" know what the true gospel message is? In our human condition, prior to our spiritual birth, we have no means of comprehending Bible doctrines. When the gospel message is heard the Holy Spirit takes whatever part of the message that is truth and makes it understandable to us. "We are saved by faith, and that (faith) not of our selves it is a gift from God". The very faith that saves us is a gift from God. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that makes it understandable to us--and then takes that small positive volition toward God and works it for our salvation!!! Of course, we can immediately fall victim to any number of deceptions immediately after our salvation. God's omnipotence knew this before our creation--that's why one of God's decrees was "Believe and thou shalt be saved"-be positive to the gospel and you will have eternal life!! I'll think I'll probably always wonder if I was saved BEFORE I found out that Adventism was a deception-a distortion of the truth. As a child, I was baptized with an entire "herd" of young people that were corraled, sent through the "chute" to the baptismal tank and then branded (and SEALED) as Adventist forevermore. I don't know that I understood back then-what I did understand was that I was always to keep the Sabbath in order to keep my salvation. And that being my part of my faith, I hadn't relied fully on Christ for my salvation, I was still responsible for saving me, in my mind I had power to save me. But I'm straying off the subject-- I think your question goes back to the doctrine of Heathenism--"man is without an excuse" is what the Bible says. I will have to look through my study notes and I'll post what I have learned about this subject. Lori | ||
| Max |
Wonderful to see you posting, Lori. The Lord is inspiring you with great thoughts. Even more blessings to you! --MC | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Bill Twisse: What a great surprise to hear from you! Indeed your challenge is valid! Let me state my point, using Jack the Stripper's method and going by parts: 1 - The Charismatic movement is NOT what is seen on TV. Some of churches I frequent, REFUSE and REJECT the TV pollution of the true Gospel and the elements you challenge to be found in these churches, I can vouch that they are found. 2 - I believe that Charismatic TV ministry is a de-service to the Gospel. It show the darkest side of theological ignorance and it begs description in its deception. 3 - If a Charismatic church that I am in attendance invites one of these TV preachers mentioned by Max to preach to their congregation, I simply do not show up and make sure the pastor of such church knows why. I am going through this situation as we speak in the church I attend. I told a young lady what I mention in point number one and now I am having the cold shoulder from some elements of the church 4 - The whole need no physician, but the sick do... I've been lullabyed too much with the watered down Gospel of historic churches that have become mere social clubs. I believe they are in a DANGEROUS comfort zone, and I do not want to be there. I WOULD RATHER BE UNCOMFORTABLE IN A CHARISMATIC CHURCH. I think I learned that with Jesus who, instead of the comfort of judaism, mingled with the population that had been impeded in their access of the things of God. 5 - The Charismatic Churches that I frequent, are REALLY mission oriented with NO STRINGS ATTACHED. This is also different from the historic churches that demand me to sign up with tenets of faith that are VERY BEAUTIFUL in paper, but stops there. 6 - The Charismatic churches that I frequent are really the more traditional Pentecostal Churches that reject the "faith movement" "confession movement" and others. I teach them what I feel that God wants them to learn and it works well. They can disagree with me all they want, but MANY DISAGREED WITH CHRIST, when He proclaimed to be the Son of God. Christ never gave up and God still carried His plan of Salvation through Him. All I am saying is that, I FEEL THAT THERE IS A CALLING FOR TEACHING HERE. 7 - In fulfilling my calling for teaching, I do not want to look for the unteachable of the most historic churches. They know too much! THEY KNOW TOO MUCH, period! IN THEIR OWN EYES! There is a FORM OF GODLINESS, but they DENY THE POWER THEREOF. Unfortunately, with ALL its errors and imperfections, I FIND, (AND I AM A WITNESS OF IT) that the Charismatic Churches of the TYPE I frequent, are more open and prone to HAVE A SINCERE PURSUIT OF GODLINESS AND RECEIVE THE POWER THEREOF. 8 - Please, in no way, think that I go around saying that I reject their teaching and then, joining in and singing Com By ya... I'd rather start my own movement before I do such. I am there STRICTLY TO FULFILL GOD'S CALLING TO TEACH AND BRING THEM BACK TO BIBLICAL BALANCE! This is an INDIVIDUAL THING that I do and I do not expect anybody to understand. I owe explanation only to those who, as you Bill, participate in my ministry with their prayers and friendship. When "non charismatic or charismatic ministers" criticize me judging me saying "....." (whatever they want to fill in the blanks), I just remember the old saying: "the dogs bark and the caravan goes on". I DO believe that I AM TO GO BACK TO ANTHIOC FOR ACCOUNTABILITY, as the first disciples did, BUT THEY DID IT BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THEIR FELLOWSHIP AND SUPPORT WAS. The rest I'm sorry to say, IS THE REST! I have found that people's lives in such Churches and in ALL Churches, are being changed not because of MY presence or ministry, BUT BECAUSE of GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY. I am but a unworthy earthly vessel. I believe in changing the Charismatic Movement from within. Remember, it is A MOVEMENT, and I will be there to make sure that I will fulfill my calling so that the MOVEMENT is towards the things you mentioned in your challenge. I hope this helps. Please, do not consider any of my comments above as a criticism of historic churches. My moto is "only those who have never been in the arena of life can criticize; they have not tasted and indeed CANNOT TASTE, neither defeat nor victory; they do not change history or help anybody. As for me I want to be there in the arena, fighting the good fight and finishing my course whatever the cost, and in my unworthiness and imperfection, still be counted by God as a faithful servant". (I believe some of the former US presidents said something similar to that). Again, your concern is valid and your question is welcome. Humbly this brother of yours Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
Thanks for that post, GA. I think I understand you a lot better now. --MC | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Cindy, for that thoughtful and truly gracious post. Now I have a question: You wrote, ^^CHRIST CRUCIFIED FOR US really is our message, one we can rejoice in...ALL Righteousness flows from Calvary!^^ My question: Can we preach this message with our actions ALSO? Or do we preach it ONLY with our words? --MC | ||
| Max |
Or, let me pose the same question in another way: Is it possible to preach "Christ crucified for us" by walking the Walk as well as by talking the Talk? | ||
| Graceambassador |
Max: Crucial question! We must answer it within ourselves! Petra (a comtemporary Christian Group in case you do not know) has a song that says: SOMETIMES GOD'S CHILDREN SHOULD BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD! THERE IS TOO MUCH TALK AND NOT ENOUGH WALK! SOMETIMES GOD'S CHILDREN SHOULD BE SEEN AND NOT HEARD! The uncoverted world will hardly pay attention to your words, but they will remember your actions! The unconverted world does not read the Bible. They read you! The uncoverted world cannot see Jesus unless through you! I think your question is so serious that all of us, without falling into legalism, should check our actions more frequently than we check our appearance in the mirror every morning! This is so serious indeed that I prefer not even to go into what it is to act as a Christian! Again, without going into the un-grace legalistic imposition of behavior, I believe that we have to depend on the Holy Spirit for our actions to be able to WALK THE WALK! The book of Acts starts with: ....things that Jesus began to teach and do... Jesus had a perfect equillibrium between His actions and His teachings! What an example! Paul, writing to the Philippians in 2:13 tells us in context with obedience to his apostolic authority in his absence: ..."God, which works in you both to do will and to do of his good pleasure"... God Sovereigntly prompts us to execute His will at His pleasure and discretion (this is a proof text if read in context with the whole text). We can do it murmuring and with disputing, (vs 14) or we can be willing participants and draw glorious pleasure from it! People out there can't read the Bible. They have to read you! Let us receive now the power that God gives us to do His will and WALK THE WALK! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
GA! Absolutely nuclear response! Thanks so much! Now I wish to reverse the same question: Is it possible to preach "Christ crucified for us" by talking the Talk as well as by walking the Walk? MC | ||
| Maryann |
I have time for only a quick answer. UPC is United Penticostal Church. This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY different from the Penticostal Churches that come to mind. They are also known as "Apostolic" and Jesus Only" churches. The broke from the mainline Penticostal's around 1915 or so. There are close to 2.5 million of these people. They DENY they Trinity. God sorta wears these mask's and it can be a Father mask or Son mask or Spirit mask at other times. Some under the UPC handle say that Jesus is just another human indwelt by the the Father. Baptism in some of there circles completes salvation. In other words, they will open the church, find a river, horse trough or what ever to baptize you after you are saved because if you die in a car wreck after you are save and are NOT baptized; tuff tootie, you ain't makin' it to heaven. (that was the point I lost all reason and control and blew up at one of the indoctrinators at my house!;-) If you have been baptized in the name (they put heavy emphasis on the 'singular' "name") of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you MUST be re-baptized as this is a formula from hell. You can only be baptized in "Jesus" name only! They seriously mangle Matthew 28:19 Speaking in tongues is absolutely necessary for salvation!!! It is not "AN" evidence, it is "THE" evidence!! They massacre Acts 2:38 and say that is their big guns for their heresy of being baptized in the name of Jesus (only) for the remission of sin. If that formula is done right, then you get to fall all over the place while "in" the spirit, speaking in tongues and all kinds of weird things you DON'T even want to know about. You can bet your bootie that I am letting my kids know what their Dad believes so they can toss it as far as their little arms can heave that rubbish! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr And, they can most certainly see the contrast between that CULT and and Christianity. That is why they counterfeit money illustration is not a good idea in all cases. Some yes, but NOT here! Then my angry behavior at these people was a bit out of line, but what do you expect, I live with a husband for 13 years and then I FIND out this is what he believes!!!! I blew up so bad that they were lucky the shrapnel didn't mortally wound them!!;-)))) Grrrrrrrrrrr;-)) Now y'all know what UPC is;-(( Get the idea that I'm sensitive about this? There are specks of froth on my screen right now so will have to shut down and clean up!;-)) I'm glad I'm....IBC....whewwwww | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Maryann, I only kid you because: 1. You kid me, and (much more importantly), 2. You are well-loved on this website and as such can "take it" as well as "dish it." Loved your word - "indoctrinators" as distinguished from "witnesses." Good goin'. MC | ||
| Patti |
So, Uncle Milt, there remains one question that I have for you: Does this mean that Hindus, Buddhists, athiests, Moslems, etc. are witnessing of Jesus Christ when they do loving deeds for their fellow men and lead strong moral lives? |
