| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
How can Uncle Milt be the judge of that? He makes a wonderful sheep, but he's not the Good Shepherd. Jesus says, NIV John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. | ||
| Max |
For, just as there is only One Good Shepherd, there is also only One Judge of who's saved and who isn't: NIV John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. | ||
| Patti |
Just wondering: Is there any New Testament incident documented in which people beheld the upstanding and loving lives of the believers and were led to repentence and salvation? Also, is there New Testament evidence that one of the primary purposes of the Holy Spirit is to enable the believer to conquer his/her sinful flesh or to grow in righteousness? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Maryann, This statement: "If you have been baptized in the name (they put heavy emphasis on the 'singular' "name") of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you MUST be re-baptized as this is a formula from hell. You can only be baptized in "Jesus" name only! They seriously mangle Matthew 28:19" Jehovah's witnessess teach this same doctrine. They believe that you MUST be baptised in Jesus's name ONLY. They claim that to say all three (in the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit), you are going back to pagan roots. They were, (when I was studying with them) showing me Scripture to back this claim. Of course they ignored other Scriptures. Infact, the JWs go so far as, anything that has three parts to it, must be from pagan origin. They then presented to me pictures of pagan gods and how there were always three entities to the pagan god. I still have those pictures, I think. None the less, I had a difficult time believing them regarding this pagan origin imposed on just about everything in Christianity today. God Bless, DtB | ||
| Max |
New Testament evidence that believers are supposed to behold the upstanding and loving lives of other believers and to immitate them: NIV 1 Corinthians 4:16ÝTherefore I urge you to imitate me. NIV Ephesians 5:1ÝBe imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved 1 Thessalonians 1:6ÝYou became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. NIV 1 Thessalonians 2:14ÝÝFor you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus. NIV Hebrews 6:12ÝWe do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. NIV Hebrews 13:7ÝRemember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. NIV 3 John 1:11ÝDear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God. | ||
| Max |
Denise, ^^They claim that to say all three (in the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit), you are going back to pagan roots. They were, (when I was studying with them) showing me Scripture to back this claim. Of course they ignored other Scriptures.^^ One of the most important Scriptures they ignore is this one: NASB Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him [Jesus Christ] ALL THE FULLNESS of Deity [Father, Son, Holy Spirit] dwells IN BODILY FORM, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority. Therefore, based on this text, the doctrine of the trinity includes more than just three Persons in One and Each Person in Three, but also: ALL THREE PERSONS IN EACH OTHER PERSON. Of course it is a mystery. Of course we cannot understand it. It's nothing to pull our hair out over. It's something to reverence, to stand in awe of, the divine mystery of it all! For another mystery looms: In our God there dwells "no darkness at all [John]," yet the Three-in-One IS "clothed in darkness, in thick darkness [Isaiah or Psalms -- can't remember which]." Thanks so much for being such a Berean! Even more blessings, Max of the Corss | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: You asked me! So, Uncle Milt, there remains one question that I have for you: Does this mean that Hindus, Buddhists, athiests, Moslems, etc. are witnessing of Jesus Christ when they do loving deeds for their fellow men and lead strong moral lives? ABSOLUTELY NOT. All the above mentioned by you can be, when acting the way you described, in the same category of the COUNTERFEIT of a few posts above. I hope you read it. Their "good works" are a forceful way into whatever they call eternity. WE AS CHRISTIANS ARE "GOD'S MASTERPIECE, CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS" Ephesians 2:10 WHICH GOD HAD BEFORE ORDAINED - we are predestined to do good works - THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM. When a Muslim is "good" he is good on his behalf as I said above. BUT... WHEN CHRISTIANS FAIL TO BE GOOD AS EPHESIANS 2:10, THEY ARE DENYING THE LIFE OF CHRIST, THE NEW NATURE, THE NEW CREATION THAT ABIDES IN THEM Now, WHY DO WE ALWAYS (I included) have to confuse WALK THE WALK, or "CREATED TO DO GOOD WORKS", with BENEVOLENCE as you implied above. Paul makes it very clear what is is to walk the walk. It is not only BENEVOLENCE, but mainly, Paul gives us a list of things that we should not do. Part of this list is in 4:19, part is in Galatians 5:19 and it is also in many other parts of the NT. I think BENEVOLENCE sometimes is hard to do. Especially for those in poor countries. But MOST OF US, unless we have some psicological imbalance, can follow Ephesians 4:19 and Galatians 5:19. ABOVE ALL Remember what I said about Jesus: - a perfect balance between TEACHING AND DOING! A Christian witness of Christ when ALONG WITH HIS WITNESSING, HIS ACTIONS ARE IN PERFECT BALANCE WITH HIS WITNESSING CAN BE UNSHAKABLE, INDISTRUCTIBLE AND HIS HIS SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY MAKES THE MIGHTY CRUMBLE. (I not want to go into the area of weaknessess.) I could write a dissertation on it! But, I suppose here we are discussing if the Christian talk is the ONLY MEANS to witness. At least I think it was! JUST AS MUCH AS GOOD WORKS IS NOT NECESSARILY BENEVOLENCE OR CHARITY, witnessing of Christ cannot be limited to talking! Paul said that God ordained that "by the foolishness of preaching" the Gospel would be spread. Therefore, we have TALKING covered here. NOW TO MINISTERS IN TIMOTHY AND TITUS, PAUL DEMANDS THEM TO BE OF A GOOD REPUTATION TO THOSE THAT ARE WITHIN AND TO THOSE THAT ARE WITHOUT! (outside of the Church). I have an entire message on the difference between DESIRE AND DUTY. Paul says, "if one desires the office of an overseer - of the body - he desires a good work"... This is the desire part: THE OVERSEER, HOWEVER (episcopo: epi=super scopo=vision) or BISHOP, MUST... THIS IS THE DUTY PART, and then comes the "walk the walk" department of witnessing (remember we're all ministers in a way). Preaching without living HAS THE POTENTIAL TO LEAD A MAN TO CHRIST. A cold TAPE RECORDER, can carry the message of the Gospel, as well! Even a parrot!!! My mother in law has a parrot that can quote scriptures! He does not have to walk the walk... What a tragedy! JESUS SAID THAT THE ROCKS WOULD CRY OUT THAT HE IS WHOM HE IS... What a tragedy! A man can preach without living his preaching. Paul said that even "by comtemption or envy, he wishes the gospel would be preached". Again, one can preach without living, but what a tragedy! Well, sister Patti, you asked me the time and I attempted to teach how to build a watch! Sorry for being preachy! Please, let's not get into condemnation if we have a certain area of weakness that we are ashamed of and think we're not good witness. Such areas are, bad debt, bad breath, I mean, bad temper, and etc.. Let's SUBMIT OUR LIVES TO THE CONTROL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. IN THE NAME OF JESUS, AMEN!!! | ||
| Max |
Dear GA, I appreciate your insights into Scripture. I especially like your emphasis: ^^Witnessing of Christ cannot be limited to talking!^^ Now I have an observation to make. I notice you said: ^^All the above mentioned ["loving deeds for their fellow men and lead strong moral lives"] by you CAN be, when acting the way you described, in the same category of the COUNTERFEIT of a few posts above.^^ CAN be! (And with that I most certainly do agree.) But necessarily so? And if necessarily so, then upon what scriptural basis necessarily so? Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Patti, Your questions give a good challenge. I am not a Bible scholar but I can give it a start. I do not know off hand of an incidence in the Bible where people were changed or brought to the Gospel message based on the behavior of believers. But I immediately thought of 1 Peter 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they acuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us......Then Verse 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men. but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Collosians 3 is another wonderful chapter that counsels us on how to live our lives. Galatians 5: 16 and through the 6th chapter counsels us again on how to live. Galatians 5:16 Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature is contrary to the Spirit and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. Then to verse 24.Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. This implies living by the promptings and power of the Spirit. I can not see how I could do this otherwise! Another lovely passage is found in Romans 8. This lovely passage begins with your passion and that is that Christ Jesus set us free from the law and it is by him only we are saved. And that is truly the height of the Gospel message. Therefore....... Go on to read about living according to the Spirit! Verse 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is LIFE AND PEACE; the sinful mind is hostile to God. ......You however, are controlled not be the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. .......... I take living in the Spirit seriously. This passage says to not have it means to not belong to Jesus. Jesus gives this, it is part of the package of salvation!!! In my opinion it is. And I am a full deal kinda gal. Whether there is a recorded instance in the Bible is not the final determinent. There is plenty of scripture which encourages us to live good lives as witnesses for Christ. There are also passages that state that Jesus has given us his spirit to live our lives anew. Peace to all this evening. | ||
| Graceambassador |
Max: Not necessarily! Example: Cornelius and the Gentiles of Romans 2:14-15. Saints, I really need to check out! I've been saying this for a couple of days. I have to set up a new e-mail service that I am offering through my site and this is a humongous task for me. Plus, my wife is still in Brazil and I am responsible for the organization of the affairs of the house. Remember, I am a minister, a father, a home owner, a husband, a professional, plus I have a golden retriever that I love, and an old buick... I've got my hands full! Please, understand! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
^^Is there any New Testament incident documented in which people beheld the upstanding and loving lives of the believers and were led to repentance and salvation?^^ Indeed yes! Saul of Tarsus, for one. The faithful words AND DEEDS -- ìfilthy ragsî though they may be -- of Stephen and other early Jewish Christians nevertheless led Saul of Tarsus to repentance and salvation on the road to Damascus. Here is a ìbare bonesî outline of the scriptural (NIV) narrative: Acts 6:8. ìStephen, a man full of Godís grace and power, DID great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. Opposition arose....î Acts 7:55. ìStephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God.....î Acts 7:58. ìMeanwhile, the witnesses [of Stephenís ìfilthy ragsî actions] laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.î Acts 8:3. ìSaul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.î Acts 9:1-6. ìSaul [on the road to Damascus] was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lordís disciples.î Then the ìfist-to-the-faceî of Godís pure grace hit Saul, blinded him, and knocked him to the ground. And SET HIM FREE so that he could make a choice: To obey or to disobey Jesus Christ. Acts 9:5-6. ìWho are you, Lord?" Saul asked. ìI am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,î he replied. ìNow GET UP and GO into the city, and you will be told what you must DO.î Acts 22:4-21. ìI [Saul now Paul] persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison, as also the high priest and all the Council can testify.î Ananias was one of those who was commanded by Jesus Christ to tell Saul/Paul ìwhat you must DO.î Ananias said to him, ìYou will be HIS [the Righteous Oneís] WITNESS to all men of what you have SEEN and heard. And now what are you waiting for? GET UP, BE BAPTIZED and wash your sins away, calling on his name.î Acts 26:9-21. After having retold the story of his repentance, obedience and submission to the will of God as a result of having SEEN the upstanding and loving lives of the believers- in-Christ, Paul then tells this to King Agrippa (v.19-21): ìSo then, King Agrippa, I was not DIS- OBEDIENT to the vision from heaven. First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should REPENT and TURN to God and PROVE their repentance by their DEEDS. That is why the Jews seized me in the temple court and tried to kill me.î Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Bless you, Grace Ambassador! I have the greatest respect for you, your honesty, your character-in-Christ. Go in peace and do what the Lord requireth of thee. And may His face continue to shine upon thee, MC | ||
| Billtwisse |
Dear GA: I believe that Max and all of us understand! We are grateful for whatever contribution that you have time to make--in our contemplation of his eternal Word! I hear what you are saying on the issue of the Charismatic churches. I am not speaking only from the perspective of 'TBN watching'--but from the experiences I have had in fellowship with those of a Pentecostal and Charismatic persuasion. I have attended their worship and teaching services many times--both large and small. As a rule, these believers insist that the common phenomenon of glossolalia is the proof of Holy Spirit baptism. In other words, salvation by faith is merely the initial step of following Christ. H.S. baptism comes later when we speak in this type of tongues. Maybe your experience is different: I'm not sure. As for me, I know of no exception to this teaching in EITHER Charismatic OR Pentecostal circles. There are probably a few dissenters. I once engaged in glossolalia. I have believing friends who currently practice it. I never try and challenge them on the issue of whether the phenomenon is from God or not. I only attempt to teach the gospel--and find agreement on who Jesus Christ is and what he has accomplished! I have no burden to challenge those who claim that they have the gift of tongues. I do have a burden on these critical issues: 1. Is speaking in tongues the only evidence of being baptized of the Holy Spirit? In other words, are those who haven't yet experienced the tongues-speaking 'unbaptized?' 2. Is tongue-speaking the distinguishing factor between 'baby' Christians and 'spirit-filled' Christians? 3. Did the gift of tongues originally consist of an instant and extraordinary ability to know and speak a particular language? I'm not trying to debate whether or not there was also a gift that was strictly 'heavenly language.' I'm trying to obtain an admission that the original gift did not consist of ONLY such an unknown language. This question is crucial. The apostolic age was certainly unique in some respects and we need to admit that. The anti-tongues people have always pointed this out--however, they go way too far in denying the relevance of many spiritual gifts for today. 4. Is prophecy the superior gift until Christ comes? Paul said that it was. Yet from a PRACTICAL standpoint, most Pentecostal and Charismatic individuals--while affirming the continuance of prophecy--will deny it completely when it means accepting the message of those who rebuke much of their erroneous doctrine. Anyway, I love you supremely as a rare defender of the true gospel of grace, brother Milt! Dear Maryann: Keep up the good work! :-)))) I love it when you stand for the truth. It was good to see you last night and fellowship together. Thanks for the oranges and avocados; my wife and I enjoyed them immensely! --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Dear friend Bill, I so much appreciated getting to know you better at our agape feast at Coco's Friday night. Speaking with you face to face I can literally see the Spirit on your face! It was such a blessing! ^^I'm trying to obtain an admission that the original gift did not consist of ONLY such an unknown language.^^ Okay, I'll admit it. I also want to get your take on a Scripture: NASB Acts 2:38 Peter said to them [Jews in Jerusalem on Day of Pentecost], " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you WILL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To me this text contradicts the arguments of our Pentecostal and Charismatic friends who say that you won't if you are baptized, that you need something more, "a second blessing" (or whatever it is that they say). I'm very unchooled in dealing with these dear people. But I don't understand their adamant refusal to recognize sound exegesis of Acts 2:38. What's your take? Max of the Cross | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Bill Twisse: I finished part of my setting up and felt tempted (with a good temptation) to check the FAF once more and saw your kind and CORRECT post and I feel that you are touching the same points that I struggle with even within my own family. I will try to answer very objectively: you asked: 1. Is speaking in tongues the only evidence of being baptized of the Holy Spirit? In other words, are those who haven't yet experienced the tongues-speaking 'unbaptized?' NO! Some Pastors, Bible Scholars even, in the Pentecostal movement are abandoning this position. 2. Is tongue-speaking the distinguishing factor between 'baby' Christians and 'spirit-filled' Christians? NO! same as above. ACTUALLY PAUL TEACHES US THE OPPOSITE: SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS A SIGN OF IMMATURITY (NOT WRONG, JUST IMMATURE) - 1 COR 12, 13, specially verses 8 and 9, AND CHAPTER 14 3. Did the gift of tongues originally consist of an instant and extraordinary ability to know and speak a particular language? I'm not trying to debate whether or not there was also a gift that was strictly 'heavenly language.' I'm trying to obtain an admission that the original gift did not consist of ONLY such an unknown language. YES. Acts 2, the day of Pentecost speaks of everyone understanding in their "own language". But Paul does speak about "the language of the angels" and Paul does characterize EVEN IN IN EPHESIANS, a kind of PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT, which, is the way his context explains "speking in tongues". Paul establishes a contrast between "speaking with the spirit" and "speaking with understanding", in Cor 12 and 14. Then in Ephesians 6:18 he says "pray in the spirit"...The work "in" there is indeed "in" as in 1 Corinthians. The word supplication also has a root of an intense, emotional and frantic type of speech This question is crucial. The apostolic age was certainly unique in some respects and we need to admit that. The anti-tongues people have always pointed this out--however, they go way too far in denying the relevance of many spiritual gifts for today. The pendulum has to swing both ways. My view of balance is that balance is not in one nor in the other end of the scale. NEITHER IT IS IN THE MIDDLE. BALANCE OCCURS WHEN THE TWO WEIGHTS ARE EXACTLY OF THE SAME VALUE! If you put more in one side, there is no balance. The center is the GRAY comfort zone that is more befitting to cowards. But BALANCE, is hard! It requires one to relinquish some of his views and to place some of the other party's views in his own side of the scale. May God help me to be balanced! 4. Is prophecy the superior gift until Christ comes? Paul said that it was. Yet from a PRACTICAL standpoint, most Pentecostal and Charismatic individuals--while affirming the continuance of prophecy--will deny it completely when it means accepting the message of those who rebuke much of their erroneous doctrine. YES! Paul describes it as such. He says, I wish you'd all speak in tongues, but ABOVE ALL, (that is the idea in the text) PROPHECY!" You're also correct in the second count since PROPHECY is described by Paul to EXHORT, COMFORT AND EDIFY, and that has to be scrutinized by the word. In that sense, I am a prophet because I point to the word, the revealed written word of God when I lovingly (I hope) rebuke the Pents. And some of them do reject me. Also Paul says that this will finish only when "that which is perfect come. Although many say all kinds of things about what it is "that which is perfect", the Pauline style and language teaches me that in almost every instance when Paul speaks about something that it is to come yet, he is talking about the blessed resurrection of the dead, as in Philippians 3:10-12 in context:- "Not that I have attained... or have been made perfect" - Paul is not saying that "that which is perfect" is the maturing of the church, the finishing of the cannon and the death of the last apostle. There is no biblical basis for that. If one uses the Bible to interpret the Bible, then one must conclude that "that which is perfect" is a future event, far beyond the time of the writer and the people whom the writer was writing to. Some may argue that Paul expected this events to happen in his time, (1 Cor 15) but that does not change the fact that he was talking about a future example and that the language is "perfection as in incorruption and resurrection". This applies to speaking in tongues too, but NOT WHAT WE SEE IN CURRENT PENTECOSTAL CIRCLES. I believe that God has the genuine somewhere for some reason. There is no justification for the lack of teaching in the Pentecostal Charismatic circles. They think that they have experienced something and now they will close their ear to anything that remotely seems to explain their experiences away. But there is a way! You use their desire to evangelize as a motivation to learn the word. That's when I, SUBVERSELY, and again, without trying to cause rebellion, practice spiritual terrorism, infiltrate their ranks and teach them the Word. In their passion to evangelize they're almost willing to hear any counter argument to their doctrines. The very few real friends I have, call me a dreamer for thinking that I can change Pentecost from within. They don't even see the reason why I try... They advise me to start a church and there teach balance. But, most of the old die hard Pents are dying. God is taking care of bringing some New Wine and perhaps my generation will not see, but God will fulfill His desire to bring US ALL INTO THE UNIT OF THE SPIRIT AND THE UNITY OF FAITH! Ephesians 4 verses 3 and verse 13. The 5 fold ministry will be used for that, with the exception of the Apostle since this one has terminated in my humble opinion. If I did not believe that God would do such a work of unifying the Body in Spirit and Faith, I would quit working and try something better to do with my time! SORRY, BUT IF BEING SHORT WOULD BE A REQUIREMENT FOR SALVATION, I'D BE ETERNALLY LOST! I hope this helps! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
With all due respect, Uncle Milt, and you know I am truly saying this with the utmost respect and affection, I must disagree with you. You wrote: WHEN CHRISTIANS FAIL TO BE GOOD AS EPHESIANS 2:10, THEY ARE DENYING THE LIFE OF CHRIST, THE NEW NATURE, THE NEW CREATION THAT ABIDES IN THEM. I had thought we were on the same wavelength, but evidently we are not. Christians fail to be "good" on a perpetual basis. Jesus Himself said, "Only God is good." Our witness has nothing to do with our "being good." (This is an impossibility, anyway.) Our witness is to the fact that God justifies the ungodly for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. NEVER in the entire New Testament will you hear the phrase, "Faith comes of observing someone's changed life and wanting to experience what (s)he has experienced." NEVER. FAITH COMES OF HEARING AND HEARING OF THE WORD OF CHRIST. I am truly puzzled where all of this legalism slipped into Christianity. Here are some of the unbiblical "truths" that we are being taught about salvation: 1. Your best Christian witness is your life. 2. That the main work of the Holy Spirit in the life is to enable you to lead a holy life (that is, to conquer the sinful flesh.) 3. That salvation is only the beginning of the blessings of God to humanity and not the fullness thereof. 4. That you cannot be truly saved if you have not seen a tremendous change in your character 5. That you cannot be an effective witness of Christ while you are yet sinning In short, what we have in American Christendom to day is believer-centered theology. one big YES, BUT..* religion. *Having a form of godliness--going through the motions, fooling ourselves into thinking that we are actually loving our neighbors and keeping the law--BUT denying the power thereof--refusing to trust that the work of Jesus Christ for lost humanity is all-sufficient. This quasi-Christianity has infected most of American Christendom. We sing songs that tell how we have let Jesus into our hearts, and what a change we have experienced, and how we love Jesus, and how we are Jesus' own because of the way we love each other. We, we, we, we. And when the Gospel comes to us with full force and pulls the rug out from under our complacent self-righteousness, we lash out without measure at the messenger. How can anyone who has had a glimpse of the holiness of the Lamb sing songs about his/her own pitiful attempts at holy living? How can we gaze up into the face of the Lamb of God hanging on the cross for us and think that we have something to offer HIM? Should we not be bowed down with remorse and loathing for our sinful condition, instead of singing little songs, telling little stories, about how well we serve Him? Perhaps we have not had a good enough dose of law. Perhaps we have forgotten exactly what is demanded by God. A quick look at the Sermon on the Mount should be enough to humble anyone who thinks (s)he is doing pretty well. Who among us meets all of any single criterion that Jesus lay down? If you have a temper, you are in danger of hellfire. If you do not sell all and give to the poor, you will not inherit eternal life. If you are not PERFECT even as your Father in heaven is PERFECT, you are eternally lost. The Gospel is impotent without the law, and what Christianity has created is a mamby-pamby gospel in which the believer is at the center. The demands of the law are watered down to the point that sinful humans can fulfil them, and grace becomes the warm fuzzies one gets whenever one thinks he has performed an unselfish act. As opposed to God's infinite mercy which forgives sinful humanity. Prostration in humility and repentence at the foot of the cross is replaced by a nice warm glow in the tummy. The law sets down in stone what is required to be acceptable to God. Not merely obeying ten little rules; our hearts and minds must be totally in tune with His holiness as Jesus pointed out. We never reach a point this side of eternity in which we can say that our lives are exemplary! NEVER. We are always, ALWAYS, dependent upon the obedience of One, and THIS, Uncle Milt, and others who may be listening, and THIS ALONE is our Witness. Just as the Pentecostals focus inward by the manifestation of tongues, so most Christians today point to themselves as an example of the Holy Spirit in the life. This is also unbiblical--same heresy, different package. Actually Pentecostal is less insidious than this teaching that is prevalent in Christendom--nothing new, btw. Just a variation on the RC perversion of the Gospel--that salvation is only the beginning, then the Holy Spirit changes our hearts. And if we do not experience this heart-change it its because we do not have the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the New Testament do we see people witnessing to their changed lives. Nowhere do we see that anyone was drawn to Jesus Christ because of someone's outstanding moral character or great Christian love. NOWHERE. This teaching is unbiblical. I repeat, "Faith comes of hearing, and hearing of the Word of Christ." Most of you will have already stoned me at this point, but if anyone is still listening, let me affirm that we do try and live a Christ-like life, but this is not our witness, nor is it the prime manifestation of the Holy Spirit working in us. (For biblical support, see the thread "The Role of the Holy Spirit," above.) The primary work of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Jesus. THIS is the ONLY witness we can give. And anyone who tells you otherwise is eclipsing the marvelous saving work of Jesus Christ--His perfect life, the obedience of One by which the many are saved, His death for the remission of our sins, and His resurrection, our assurance of acceptance with the Father--with a "witness" to our own filthy rags righteousness. Insidious deception indeed. "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the way of death." It seems right that we should work and try to repay Christ for what He has done for us. It seems right that we must offer some kind of sacrifice, some kind of act of gratitude to seal our salvation. But this is not the case. Salvation is one-sided. It is God's work from first to last. He seeks us out, He inspires us with the Holy Spirit so that we can "see" the Gospel, He gives us faith by which to comprehend Christ's saving work for humanity, He stays with us and constantly refocuses us upon the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. All we can do is rue our unworthiness and understand that we are saved only by God's infinite mercy. Not by ANYTHING inside of us. Because anything that we can experience is not of faith (faith being believing in things you cannot tangibly discern), and whatever is not of faith, is sin. Jesus Christ, our only Hope. Our only hope for salvation, our only hope for the judgment, our only hope for eternal life, our only witness. "For I determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified." Amen. So be it. May the peace that passes all understanding, the full assurance that you are His sheep and nothing can pluck you out of His hand, that His grace is fully sufficient for even the chief of sinners, be with you today and always, Patti | ||
| Valm |
Dear Patti, I will have to reread your post after church. But I do have a couple of immediate comments. I do think that Salvation is the beginning. Why? What is the point in salvation if we are not also saved from the devastation that sin brings upon our happiness? Would you wish to live forever in an existence which becomes more and more burdened with the results of sinful lifestyle? So in that manner I do think that Salvation is the beginning. Christianity is not yes-but it it yes-therfore. Here are a couple of examples in my life. I am a wife of a good man, therefore....... I am the mother of two high energy boys, therefore.... Both wife and mother will remain constant. The therefore is my response to both of these wondeful gifts in my life. I have the full realization of Christ's atonement for me, therefore...... I am sealed as God's one by the Holy Spirit forever, therefore........ In one way, it is not about me but about having these wonderful things in my life. I can not help to respond to them even if my attempts fall short much of the time. In another way it is all about me: I AM SEALED AS GOD'S CHILD!!! HE HAS GIVEN ME THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!! My last comment is about our inadequacy. I fully understand my inadequacies but I can not dwell on them and continually reguard them as filthy rags. Why? I find this a self defeating attitude, what would be the point? I work with a wonderful young lad who struggles in learning to form his letters. He is making wonderful progress. However, his criticism of his work is holding him back. He can not see the progress he is making and does not wish to practice. He tells me his letters look awful and are not right. Even when he makes what I call a "gold star" letter he views them as awful. He has set up this image for himself and can not get past it. He is a child of God. He was created in God's image. Yes, sin has marred that. But we can not forget what our roots are, created in God's image. If we do we have no hope. I find the view of some Christian people on this matter depressing and counter productive. I would not raise my children under such a view. I shudder to think of what self fulfilling prophecy would occur if I did. I will end with the analogy of some of the beauty in our lives. Such as wonderful art and wonderful music. When we go to the art museum or to the concert hall, we are viewing the works of man. What would be the point in going on this wonderful adventure if in our mind these beautiful works of art were filthy rags? What would be the point? If I viewed every beautiful thing about living in the present under the view of filthy rags, I do not think I could keep living. Valerie | ||
| Patti |
Val wrote: I do think that Salvation is the beginning. Why? What is the point in salvation if we are not also saved from the devastation that sin brings upon our happiness? Would you wish to live forever in an existence which becomes more and more burdened with the results of sinful lifestyle? So in that manner I do think that Salvation is the beginning. Patti: Christianity is a religion of FAITH. By faith, we know that our deliverance from sin and death is a sure thing. Because the Lamb was worthy. By living in the flesh, seeing with the eyes of the world, we may not actually SEE that our salvation is wrought, just as the disciples did not see themselves living in the kingdom of heaven when Jesus was on earth. But by faith we know that Christ has accomplished all. By faith we have the victory (Christ's victory) over sin. By faith we know that "the kingdom of the world is become the Kingdom of our God and of His Christ." By faith alone. Val: My last comment is about our inadequacy. I fully understand my inadequacies but I can not dwell on them and continually reguard them as filthy rags. Why? I find this a self defeating attitude, what would be the point? Patti: The point is, Val, if we do not always see ourselves as hopeless sinners, we will not always know that our only hope is the accomplished salvation of Jesus Christ ALONE. Our recognition of our state of sinnerhood is not a one-time thing that happens upon conversion, or it is only a semi-annual event that happens at "revival" time. It is an on-going recognition of our total unworthiness and the absolute perfection of the Lamb. Throughout eternity we will acknowledge that we are sinners saved only by the grace of God. Elsewise, why would we sing the Song of the Lamb with the saints in heaven? It is this in a nutshell: Those who do not (perpetually) recognize their sinful condition will feel no (perpetual) need of or intense appreciation for the saving work of Jesus Christ. May God truly bless you this day and always. Patti | ||
| Max |
Valerie, I believe in you and your emphasis via witnessing to Christ on the cross by words AND deeds. Remember it was BY FAITH AO\LONE that: Noah built the ark. Abraham obeyed and went out not knowing where he was going, was enabled to become a father, and offered Isaac. Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau. Jacob blessed each of Joseph's sons and "worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff." Joseph spoke about the Exodus and gave instructions about his bones. Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born. Moses refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter, chose to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season, left Egypt, persevered, and kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood. The Israelites passed through the Red Sea as on dry land. Rahab welcomed the spies. "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them receigved what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." Hebrews 11:39 NIV. They were made perfect by the cross, and so are we. Many more blessings to you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: I receive humbly your affection and repect. I gladly take it save it and declare that this feeling is mutual! Also a piece of GOOD NEWS. YOU ARE MORE IN AGREEMENT WITH ME THAN YOU THINK. Your own words make my point that WE ARE NOT GOOD! WE CAN'T BE GOOD. I am ALWAYS POINTING, if you read my post and I was able to express myself wisely, TO THE GOODNESS OF GOD THAT DWELLS IN US. TO TNE NATURE OF CHRIST THAT DWELLS IN US. Also, it seemed to me that you are under the belief that I think that our goodness will SAVE SOMEONE. This is not what I am saying I AM SAYNG that, although Christianity is not a BELIEVER CENTERED FAITH, THE BELIEVER IS CHANGED INTO A NEW CREATURE, IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST, BECOMES PARTAKERS WITH THE NATURE OF CHRIST. OUR GOOD ACTIONS AND GOOD DEEDS WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. WHAT WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME PAGE AS TO THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD WITNESS. A witness speaks of something they saw or experienced. If they have NOT SEEN NOR EXPERIENCED, THEY MAY BE SPEAKING THE TRUTH, BUT AS A FALSE WITNESS. THE DEVIL QUOTES TRUTHFUL SCRIPTURES, BUT HE IS CHARACTERIZED BY JESUS AND THE FATHER OF LIES. A witness has no power of determining the FINAL outcome of that which it is witnessing about. In the case of Christianity, ONLY GOD IS THE FINAL JUDGE OF THE OUTCOME, NOT OUR ACTIONS... Now, that I have cleared the way and perhaps you understand me better, I hope, let me pose you a question: Can you give me an adjective, for one who lives as you described?: We are always, ALWAYS, dependent upon the obedience of One, and THIS, Uncle Milt, and others who may be listening, and THIS ALONE is our Witness Take whatever adjective you give to this person who lives in such a beautiful description above, and replace the word GOOD, in every instance I used the word GOOD in my post! Also, can you tell me now what is the point of us becoming PARTAKERS OF THE NATURE OF CHRIST, LIVING THE LIFE OF CHRIST, BEING GOOD'S WORKMANSHIP (MASTER PIECE) CALLED INTO GOOD WORKS. I am seriously and indeed conerned about your understanding of these verses. I know preachers whose lives were not in accordance with your words pasted above, that explained away these verses and lived a life of total disregard for Godliness, and yet, continued to preach from the pulpit. I am not suspecting your LIVING, please, understand, I am concerned at what you consider the qualifications required fot one to be a PREACHER, A LEADER OR A MINISTER of God and your "acceptance" of them as such. If they do need the qualifications described by your own words, why not everyone else? NOT FOR SALVATION OF COURSE, BUT FOR WITNESSING. Again, I don't believe there is disagreement. I could paste your post in mine and we would be saying the same thing about our source of goodness. A have a few more points but perhaps I will approach them later when you cover these two points above, if you wish obviously! I am no saint in men's eyes. I am in God's eyes. I am imperfect in men's eyes. I am perfect in God's eyes. As frail and faling I may be before men's eyes, I will live in total dependence upon God so I will not FALL into the sins described in Eph 4:19 and Galatians 5:19, because such living has the potential of making me a FALSE WITNESS, without, however, affecting the SALVATION OF ANYONE, because my GOODNESS OR HOLINESS CAN'T SAVE! I hope this clarifies! Grace Ambassador |
