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Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 2 » For Sinners Only: Hey! Our "filthy rags" good deeds aren't all about us! » Archive through February 5, 2001 « Previous Next »

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Cindy
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max, :-)) Please also go back to what I just wrote to see what I am trying to say. :-))

When we preach the historical Jesus on the Cross we are proclaiming an objective, outside of us, act of GOD.

It is of a Righteousness given to us... a Substitutionary and Complete Atonement for our sinful condition.

To me, a DISTINCTION must always be made between this objective revelation of CHRIST'S Finished, Perfect Work...and our subjective response.

This message of the Cross is essential and necessary as our basis and ground of any assurance in salvation!

It is something the other religions don't preach, although most stress "morality" and "transformation".
They have no need for a Cross.
(See the note I posted above on the Baha'i faith.)

I will agree with you that even our presentations of Christ Crucifed may be imperfect; and yet I think if we present Scriptures on Christ's saving act at the Cross, the Holy Spirit will do the work of convicting the hearers. I still think this must be of First Importance! :-))

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cindy,

I certainly do agree with you that ^^the Holy
Spirit will do the work of convicting the
hearers. I still think this must be of First
Importance!^^

But I don't think Scripture supports the idea
that our words by faith alone supercede our
actions by faith alone. Both are imperfect, both
"filthy rags" righteousness -- words and
deeds.

When we preach by BOTH WORDS AND
DEEDS the historical Jesus on the Cross we
are proclaiming an objective, outside of us, act
of GOD.

It is of a Righteousness given to us... a
Substitutionary and Complete Atonement for
our sinful condition.

To me, a DISTINCTION must always be made
between this objective revelation of CHRIST'S
Finished, Perfect Work...and our subjective
response by BOTH WORDS AND DEEDS.

This message by BOTH WORDS AND DEEDS
of the Cross is essential and necessary as
our basis and ground of any assurance in
salvation!

That is what I believe, and I can support it with
over a hundred clear-and-plain scriptural texts.

MC
Cindy
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear MC, You are so clever with words! :-)) I am going to have to sleep on this... maybe dream?...:-))

I'm just too tired now to continue this tonight, even though it is very interesting! :-)) Morning will come too quickly...and even with my coffee I need some good sleep before that first cup! :-))

Grace always,
cindy
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not sold in stores: FAITH!!

Simon Magus the Sorcerer of Samaria
notwithstanding. Nor all of the TV preachers
from Apollyon.

Yes, Scripture does say, "Faith comes from
hearing the message, and the message is
heard through the word of Christ." (NIV
Romans 10:17.)

But NOT ONLY by hearing. The text does NOT
say, "Faith comes ONLY from hearing the
message, and the message is heard ONLY
through the word of Christ."

Sound exegesis of this text demonstrates
from the context that faithful HEARING must be
accompanied by faithful DOING.

Proof (NIV Romans 12:1-2): Notice that Paul
does not begin this chapter with any anemic
"yes but." Rather he begins with the robust
THEREFORE!

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers in view of
God's mercy, to OFFER your bodies as LIVING
SACRIFICES, holy and pleasing to God -- this
is your spiritual ACT OF WORSHIP. Do not
conform any longer to the pattern of this world,
but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of
your mind. Then YOU WILL BE ABLE TO TEST
and approve what God's will is -- his good,
pleasing and perfect will."

Maxc of the Cross
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good night, Cindy,

And all blessed dreams to you and Richard,

MC
Max
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO YOU

by Arthur Unknown

The Gospel of Matthew is fine, my friend. The
Gospel of Mark is too. The Gospel of Luke is
wonderful. But say,

What is the Gospel According to You?

There're millions of people who're living in sin,
who never sit in a church pew. But you can
rest assured, they're watching your life,

The Gospel According to You.

What about it, neighbor? Just where do you
go, when ere the day's work is thru? For
wherever it is, somebody's watching,

The Gospel According to You.

The things that you do, the words that you
speak, they're following you all day through.
And when least expected, somebody is
reading,

The Gospel According to You.

And when up in heaven, your Savior you meet,
and all life's journey is through, will there be
any souls who are there because,

Of the Gospel According to You?
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cannot help but jump into this, with hesitation I might add. As I'm not one to get into semantics (sp) or exegises (sp) BUT,,,

:)) Jesus Said the deaf will hear. Now I take that into consideration and not only apply it to the literal but also the spiritual. I have to because it is also written the they have ears but cannot hear and that is a spiritual meaning.

What I mean is this. There are many people that are truly deaf (literally), but by our actions we can convey Jesus Christ. Perhaps later we can point up with our finger to see if they believe.

These such people also live here in my building so I am speaking in all of this post from my experiences.

Then there are the people that hate preaching. I live around a host of them. Do I preach the Gospel to them? By no means as that would have them running!

Instead, I show, the best way I know how, love. In whatever form that happens to be. Now, in my experience with people, eventually they end up asking me if I'm a Christian or Do I believe in God and other such questions.

Others come right to my door, having never met me, but have seen me doing things for others, and they will ask me if I know anything about God or am I a Christian.

Then too, are those that visit my abode. They happen to glance around and what do they see? They see an office looking place chuck full of Bibles and concordances, paperwork and other such things like Christian books.

They usually at first won't say anything, BUT..something draws them back here and eventually they end up asking in a round about way, about God.

In all these, speaking and actions and sometimes non actions but the appearance of my apartment, I'm given the opportunity to tell them about Jesus Christ and our Great Hope.

So, I have to say right along with Scripture, to avoid the appearance of evil, to show love, to tell of Jesus, to do good, to present ourselves so that nobody has any accusations that will hold up against us and other such things.

There are many ways to speak and do to show people a glimpse. Enough of one, whether it be in words or deeds or both or by our very appearances, to incite others to ask questions about God or to avoid us because they do not want to know.

This is my humble opinion and I'm not even sure if this makes sense enough to portray what I'm thinking. But there you have what I think, flawed spelling or grammer and all.

God Bless all of us as we try so very hard to portray in writing what is in our hearts.

your sister in Christ Jesus our only Hope,
DtB
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Max,

As you were typing, I was typing. I didn't see your post before I posted and look at the similarity in thought or concept!

Well, it's good to know that that unknown author thought about like I do or I think as the author thinks. Which ever, no matter.

God Bless you and God Bless that unknown author!
DtB, your sister in our Lord Jesus
Lori
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 5:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those are great concepts!

I was thinking the other day about the places that I go that I don't think of God. I always think about Him when I am at home, or in the car. That's good because those are the two places I am at the most. But, I have discovered that there are places that I go that the entire time that I am there I have no thought of God. One is the grocery store-I guess "I leave God in the car" and another place that "I leave God in the car" is when I take my boys to TaeKwonDo. Of course, when I thought of this my immediate question is "why?". What am I doing that is causing me to "leave God in the car"? --the answer is easy-- It's because I have become self-absorbed! In the store I am so focused on ME accomplishing the task and at TaeKwonDo-I'm self-absorbed in conversation with other moms.

I have to praise God because I know that this awareness is part of my spiritual growth!! And, I am so very thankful to finally understand what it means to grow in GRACE!!!

Lori
Valm
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, Trust me when you take God into the grocery store you are much better able to cope when grandma runs over you with her cart. You will even gladly get the jar from the top shelf for her! I am happy for the little epiphany God gave you this week. Valerie
Lydell
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, you would really be challenged by reading the little book, "The Prayer of Jabez" by Bruce Wilkinson. You can find it at a Christian book store.

Jabez' prayer was very short, "Oh that you would bless me indeed (so that he could overcome his natural downward tendencies---like our being self-absorbed in the grocery store), and enlarge my territory (so that we will be open to his promptings to minister wherever...to include the grocery store), that Your hand would be with me(for it is only by His empowerment that we can minister), and that You would keep me from evil (huh uh, you have to read the book to get what the author has to say on that one! ha), that I may not cause pain."

This is a very small book, but it is HUGE! I strongly encourage you to read it!
Lori
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 9:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's very true, Valerie, but what I'm referring to is more on the lines of from what perspective did you "get the jar from the top shelf for her"? Did you do it from the perspective of "she's going to think what a really sweet person I was" or were you doing it from "whatever you do, do it as it was unto God"? Did you hold the door because "anyone who sees me will notice how kind/courteous I am" or "you are a servant of God" or "this behavior is accepted"? Did you smile because "it's just your personality to do that" or did you smile because the "radiance of God showed out through you"?

I'm not really referring to "what I do" while I'm at the "store" but rather with what "spirit" I do it in.

"Sweet" people can live their whole lives and no one really thinks about whether they are saved or not. Why? Because "sweet" people already exhibit the things that the world views as "being spiritual"? But the reality is that being "sweet" has nothing to do with salvation or the spiritual way of life. Christ was anything but sweet when he cleaned out the synangogue! But he was living the spiritual way of life.

I'm not going to walk into the grocery store and ignore the obvious need of another individual whether I walk in there with or without God or whether I'm in a hurry or not. That's not my way. That's not the "Southern" way. I'm going to stop for someone who's walking across the parking lot to the store. I'm going to hold the door open for someone that is near me. I'm going to get that item that's out of reach and my children will do those things to because that is common courtesy and good manners. But none of these things are spiritual.

My comment was based more on "where my thoughts are" not "what my actions are". I can have the actions without having the thoughts!!!

When we do the action without the "proper motivation" it is wood,hay and stubble or we can do the very same action with the Spirit of God and this is the thing lasts-gold, bronze and silver.

I can go to the store and I'm the only person that would ever know that my motivation was not from the motivation of Christ because my actions are going to look O.K. to those around me. But what I'm seeking is a motivation and an action that is always pleasing to my Lord!!

Does that make sense?

Lori
Jtree
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Treasure!

(Gee I don't know where to put this, so I put it here).

(by Alice Gray as printed in "More Stories for the Heart")

The cheerful girl with bouncy golden curls was lmost five. Waiting with her mother at the heckout
stand, she saw them: a circle of listening white pearls in a pink foil box.

"Oh please, Mommy. Can I have them? Please, Mommy, please!"

Quickly the mother checked the back of the little foil box and then looked back into the pleading blue eyes of her little girl's upturned face.

"A dollar ninety-five. That's almost $2.00 if you really want them, I'll think of some extra chores for you and in no time you can save enough money to buy them for yourself. Your birthday's only a
week away and you might get another crisp dollar bill from Grandma."

As soon as Jenny got home, she emptied her penny bank and counted out 17 pennies. After dinner,
she did more than her share of chores and she went to the neighbor and asked Mrs. McJames if she
could pick dandelions for ten cents. On her birthday, Grandma did give her another new dollar bill and at last she had enough money to buy the necklace.

Jenny loved her pearls. They made her feel dressed up and grown up. She wore them everywhere -Sunday school, kindergarten, even to bed. The only time she took them off was when she went swimming or had a bubble bath. Mother said if they got wet, they might turn her neck green.

Jenny had a very loving Daddy and every night when she was ready for bed, he would stop whatever he was doing and come upstairs to read her a story. One night when he finished the story, he asked
Jenny, "Do you love me?"

"Oh yes, Daddy. You know that I love you."

"Then give me your pearls."

"Oh, Daddy, not my pearls. But you can have Princess-the white horse from my collection. The one with the pink tail. Remember, Daddy? The one you gave me. She's my favorite."

"That's okay, honey. Daddy loves you. Good night." And he brushed her cheek with a kiss.

About a week later, after the story time, Jenny's daddy asked again, "Do you love me?"

"Daddy, you know I love you."

"Then give me your pearls."

"Oh, Daddy, not my pearls. But you can have my babydoll. The brand new one I got for my
birthday. She is so beautiful and you can have the yellow blanket that matches her sleeper."

"That's okay. Sleep well. God bless you, little one. Daddy loves you." And as always, he brushed her cheek with a gentle kiss.

A few nights later when her daddy came in, Jenny was sitting on her bed with her legs crossed
Indian-style. As he came close, he noticed her chin was trembling and one silent tear rolled down her cheek.

"What is it, Jenny? What's the matter?"

Jenny didn't say anything but lifted her little hand up to her daddy. And when she opened it, there was her little pearl necklace. With a little quiver, she finally said, "Here Daddy. It's for you."

With tears gathering in his own eyes, Jenny's kind daddy reached out with one hand to take the
dime-store necklace, and with the other hand he reached into his pocket and pulled out a blue velvet case with a strand of genuine pearls and gave them to Jenny. He had them all the time. He was just waiting for her to give up the dime-store stuff so he could give her genuine treasure.

So like our Heavenly Father.

What are you hanging on to?

Joshua of the Rock!
Max
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joshua of the Rock! God has given you a way
of bringing tears to the eyes. --Max of the
Cross
Max
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anybody who separates the "new birth" from
the "feeding at God's breasts" and the
weaning from "God's breastmilk" to "God's
solid food" and "growing up in God's grace" is
not only doing violence to Holy Scripture, but is
also cutting the believer off from Christ
hanging on the cross.
Max
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where does Scripture say that we are born
again and again and again and again and
again and again ad infinitum?
Max
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^And what is the role of the Holy Spirit? See
John 16:7-16. You will not find "changed
characters" or the ability to please God with
our obedience listed.^^

John 16:7-16 cannot be cut off and taken out
of the context of the rest of the book of John
and the entire New Testament witness.

NIV John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for
your good that I am going away. Unless I go
away, the Counselor will not come to you; but
if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will convict the world of
guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and
judgment:
9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe
in me;
10 in regard to righteousness, because I am
going to the Father, where you can see me no
longer;
11 and in regard to judgment, because the
prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than
you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he
will guide you into all truth. He will not speak
on his own; he will speak only what he hears,
and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will bring glory to me by taking from
what is mine and making it known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That
is why I said the Spirit will take from what is
mine and make it known to you.
16 "In a little while you will see me no more,
and then after a little while you will see me."

To be continued.
Max
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 1:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John 16:7-16 is but a part of a very long
passage (six long chapters) of prayer and
fellowship with his disciples just before they
cross the Kidron Valley and enter the olive
grove where Jesus is to be arrested.

After the mysterious John 16:7-16 portion of
this passage, considerable context is devoted
to its meaning.

The point: The Holy Spirit cannot come unless
Jesus "goes away." The Holy Spirit IS Christ in
us. The Holy Spirit IS Christ. They are an
identity. God IS ONE. The Holy Spirit IS ALSO
the Father. God is ONE. Jesus Christ IS ALSO
the Father. God is One. All three Persons of
the godhead are FULLY WITHIN each one.

Example: "In Christ ALL THE FULLNESS of
the DEITY" -- FATHER, SON, SPIRIT -- "lives IN
BODILY FORM, and YOU have been given
fullness in Christ...." Colossians 2:9=10 NIV.

The result: Christ's "prayer is not for them [his
disciples] alone. I pray also for THOSE WHO
WILL BELIEVE in me through their message
[in BOTH words and deeds], that all of them
may be one, Father, just as you are in me and
I am in you. May they also be in us SO THAT
THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that you have sent
me. I HAVE GIVEN THEM THE GLORY that you
gave me, that they may be one as we are one;
I IN THEM and you in me. May they be brought
to complete unity to LET THE WORLD KNOW
[through BOTH words and deeds] that you
sent me and have loved them even as you
have loved me." NIV John 17:20-23.

To be continued.
Max
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus prayer continues:

"Righteous Father, though the world does not
know you, I know you, and THEY [you and I,
fellow believers] know that you have sent me."
NIV John 17:25.

The NIV text note to "they know" says this:
"They [you and I] did not know God directly and
personally [as John, Peter, James and the
rest of the Twelve did], but they knew God had
sent Christ. To recognize God in Christ's
mission is a great advance over ANYTHING
THE WORLD CAN KNOW."

Continuing with Christ's prayer: "I have made
you [Father] known to them [you and I], and will
CONTINUE to make you known in order that
the love you have for me may be IN them and
that I myself may be IN them."

Therefore: The very context of John 16:7-16
RULES OUT any interpretation that denies that
loving actions will not be seen by the world in
the lives of Christ followers.

And since love fulfills the law in its entirety,
"changed characters" are the inevitable result
of all in whom both the Father and the Son
dwell in the Person of the Holy Spirit.

There is just no way around this, my frends!
Scripture says what it says. And God is not
mocked.

Blessings to all,

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2001 - 2:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, You make perfectly great sense. That is why I said the coping will be alot easier. Coming from the South, you are conditioned for good manners, even when they hurt. But to do these things will not be with any effort or code of law. They will be from the Holy Spirit working within you.

For myself, I do not like to be ran down by a shopping cart by an old lady (something that happens with less frequency now that I live in the NW. But when I go into the supermarket in the "Gospel state of mind" I remember how imperfect I am, smile about my sore achilles, move out of the way, and escort grandma by.

I gave up looking sweet or being perceived as such a long time ago. I grab the jar off the top shelf not because of what grandma thinks about me but because I am deeply enriched by the suprised look on her face at the act of kindness.

Formyself, I have God who accepts me the way I am so I need no acceptance of others. Living in his grace even in the supermarket give the day to day tasks a spiritual overtone. I do not know what happens but by grabbing that jar, I feel like I am benefitting more than grandma.

For me it is living in the kingdom now. I do not know how else to articulate it.

Valerie

Valerie

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