| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
A witness speaks of something they saw or experienced. If they have NOT SEEN NOR EXPERIENCED, THEY MAY BE SPEAKING THE TRUTH, BUT AS A FALSE WITNESS. Then we are all false witnesses if we tell others of the historical saving work of Jesus Christ. Paul was a false witness because he had not personally SEEN nor EXPERIENCED the perfect life and death and resurrection of our Lord. I love you, but we are not on the same page. The witness that changed the world was not the "Christ within," but it was the message of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Have we SEEN this? Only by faith. Have we EXPERIENCED this? Again, only by faith. THE DEVIL QUOTES TRUTHFUL SCRIPTURES, BUT HE IS CHARACTERIZED BY JESUS AND THE FATHER OF LIES. I do not know of an instance in Scripture where the devil preaches the all-sufficiency of the doing and dying of our Lord and Savior. It is an unpopular topic. People do not like to talk about it. They want to talk about themselves. (Even pointing to the "Christ within" is pointing to oneself). And we are told that when the Holy Spirit comes, He will testify only of Jesus. If we are focused on ourselves, we are not uplifting the historic, once-for-all saving act of Jesus Christ. Even the Pharisee gave glory to God for His "good" works: "I thank THEE, God, that I am not as other men are." And, to be blatantly honest, this is what we are saying when we witness to our transformed lives, the manifestation of tongues in us, or any other gift of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not testify to Himself. The Gospel is all about Jesus: crucified, dead, risen. It is HIStory, not MYstery. If we become bored with hearing repetitious renderings of the Gospel of our salvation for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, what in the world are we going to be doing throughout eternity when everyone else is singing songs of praises to the Lamb of God? Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: Okay, then we're not in agreement! You are basing your arguments in the same foundation that the Calvinists in the area I live do... And remember, I am a 5 points without being a Calvinist! They define the historical Christ perfectly. They also preach that it is by faith! But, again, allow me gently to use your own words: Have we EXPERIENCED this? Again, only by faith. Last month I took a trip to Brazil. I flew to Brazil. I boarded the plane, I slept all the way through when I woke up I was there. I CANNOT FLY A BOING 777. I had to have faith in the pilot. I had so much faith that he was not taking me to Biafra, but Brazil, that I fell confidently asleep. I cannot witness of the flight because I did not experienced the flight and neither fly the airplane myself. So, if I say I went to Brazil by plane, I am a false witness! I only have the historical evidence, a copy of my ticket to prove that I went to Brazil. I can only vouch for the flight by faith, therefore it is not by experience. I can never, ever say that I flew a boing 777 to Brazil, because that would be false! Perhaps I was transported to Brazil as Philip was to the Eunuch! Oh! Glory!!! I say, YES I did experienced something that I did not PARTICIPATE OF HAD ANY ROLE IN IT, BUT I CAN WITNESS OF THE EXPERIENCE THAT IT DID IN FACT HAPPENED TO AND WITH ME! I may not have seen Jesus as John states in his epistles: ..."That which we have seen and handled"... But I have the TITLE DEED as though I have experience because of FAITH. This is the beauty of the Gospel message! It is GIVEN TO ME IN A TITLE DEED! I have the EXPERIENCE BECAUSE OF FAITH. Faith is the SUBSTANCE, (A TITLE DEED) of things hoped for and the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN! I was not there when Dom Peter 1st proclaimed Brazil's independence from Portugal, so for about 225 years I probably am under the Portuguese Crown's order... I am a false witness if I say that I am INDEPENDENT FROM PORTUGAL, because I did not experience. I can only account for the history. What is my evidence? My experience of 49 years of independent life and 225 years of our Nation's Independence! Perhaps this is the crux of the question... What happens is historic, but we do experience the results of what happened historically... I wonder about this... In a more biblical approach: In Hebrews 11 there are mny called "Heroes of Faith". They indeed could be witnesses because they participated in the events that left us a great spiritual legacy. BUT GUESS WHAT? THE BIBLE SAYS THAT WHAT I HAVE IS BETTER AND SUPERIOR TO WHAT THEY HAVE. THEY COULD ONLY LOOK FORWARD FOR THAT THEY WOULD HAVE IN THE FUTURE, BUT WE HAVE RECEIVED IT BY FAITH It seems to me that you are saying that because we spiritually experience Jesus by faith, we are not WITNESS OF AN EXPERIENCE, but rather, historians... I blame it on me! I think I am misunderstanding you and placing all my assumptions and responses upon a wrong premise! That's why it would be important for me to find out how you qualify those who live in "total dependence upon God" so I could attempt to crack the first layers of my brain and understand you! I am trying to be understood and answering you as best as I can. How about you PLEASE, answering the questions I posed in the former post? Plus, you seem as though you're getting upset with the issue: PLEASE DON'T, we can drop it now and come back later to find balance... One more point: You say: It is an unpopular topic. People do not like to talk about it. Perhaps because there is no topic here. Just as you have not seen the Devil preach the all sufficient work of Christ, NEITHER HAVE I, (he did repeat the Word of God and Paul calls Christ, ...the wisdom of God and the Word of God.) again, just as much as you have not seen the Devil preaching Christ, I have never seen a true Christian pointing to himself when witnessing. Perhaps because I am not a "former SDA". I am one, as many friends of mine, who forbid and excercise the prohibition, in our messages or personal witnessing, of words such as: ....This is what happened to me... ....This is what I FEEL.... ....This is what I experienced.... ....I was my faith that accomplished this.... ....If it would not be by my faith..... ....If it would not be for my biblical knowldedge... etc., etc., etc. So, I do believe we are okay here... But if I do give you the right of thinking we are in disagreement. By the way. Never forget that the historical Christ came for ALL. But there is the HERESY OF THE UNIVERSALIST... Christ did not come for those "whom God gave him..." as in John 17. BUT AFTER CHRIST ALL ARE AUTOMATICALLY SAVED BECAUSE OF THIS UNDENYABLE HISTORICAL FACT. SO, YOU CAN BE A PRACTICING HOMOSEXUAL, A MURDERER, AN ADULTERER, A LIAR, A CHEAT, VOTE FOR CLINTON, SUPPORT AL GORE, AND YOU ARE OKAY BECAUSE CHRIST ALREADY PAID THE PRICE FOR YOU... THIS IS THE HERESY OF THE UNIVERSALIST, which by the way is preached in many modern circles today, specially in the minority churches (now I hit a nerve). I don't believe you subscribe to the above. I do believe we are NOT UNDERSTANDING EACH OTHER! Lovingly! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: Apologies! I re-read my post above after I posted and realized that it may sound sarcastic! Sarcasam is a combination of two words (see, I a guy of many words...): SARK, which is the biblical Greek word for "flesh" ASM, as the termination of anything that is a sudden and mostly involuntary movement, like in "espasm" etc... It appears to me when I re-read my post that I had a SUDDEN MOVEMENT OF MY FLESH when I wrote it. No excuses, ONLY APOLOGIES, if in any way shape or form such post offended you. This happens when we go on discussing "non-biblical" words. There is almost no evidence that the "religious slang" - witness - is used in the NT. Here are some instances: Witness: (oredered by topics not named) Lev 5:1, Prov. 18:17, Ex. 22:11, Num 5:19-21, 1 Kin 8: 31,32, Lev 24:14, Num 35-30, Deut 17:6, 19:15, Matt 18:16, John 8:17, 2 Cor 13:1 Tim 5:19, Heb 10:28, Deut 13:9, 17:5-7, Acts 7:58, and a few others that I probably missed. It is only FIGURATIVELY, that we can call our preaching "witnessing". Well..., this has the purpose of apologizing for A SPASM OF THE FLESH! Lovingly, Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
It is an unpopular topic. People do not like to talk about it. GA: Perhaps because there is no topic here. Patti: I don't think I made myself clear. I was referring to the Gospel. I am sorry. I am writing to you under false understanding. I thought you were a Calvinist, or at least had Calvinist propensities. YES I did experienced something that I did not PARTICIPATE OF HAD ANY ROLE IN IT, BUT I CAN WITNESS OF THE EXPERIENCE THAT IT DID IN FACT HAPPENED TO AND WITH ME! Again, we are not communicating. Your experience was still that: AN EXPERIENCE. If we can experience it, it is not of faith. The faith that comes to us is based upon the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is CREDITED to us, which we cannot see or experience first hand. We are righteous BY FAITH ONLY, meaning that we can neither see nor touch it. And this faith is given us by the Holy Spirit upon hearing the Good News of our complete acceptance in Jesus Christ. FAITH COMES OF HEARING... OF THE WORD OF CHRIST, the Gospel, the finished work of Christ on the behalf of sinful humanity, not a testimony to one's own changed life, or not the outward semblances of a changed life. Jesus Christ and Him crucified is our witness. This is the witness of the disciples and apostles, and there is nothing else that we can tell or show that will lead people to Christ. I am bitterly disappointed in that I was thinking all this time that I was speaking to one who had the same beliefs that I did. Sadly, I now understand that you do not hold reformed beliefs (salvation by grace through faith alone). My love and care will stay with you, though, and I will still welcome your company at any time. God bless you richly, Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Patti: ONE MORE CHANCE PLEASE: THIS IS WHY I DO NOT CALL MYSELF A CALVINIST: TO THE CALVINIST I AM TOO PENTECOSTAL, TO THE PENTECOSTAL I AM TOO CALVINIST. BECAUSE I DO NOT BAPTIZE INFANTS, DO NOT CARE ABOUT A SPECIAL DAY TO WORSHIP, DO NOT CONDONE IN THE KILLING OF MY ENEMIES, DO NOT SHUN THOSE IN DISAGREEMENT WITH ME I CANNOT BE CALLED A CALVINIST. I AM A CALVINIST IN SOTERIOLOGY. MAY BE YOU DO NOT REMEMBER THAT WE HAD A HEATED DISCUSSION BEFORE ON THE "L" WHERE YOU SEEM TO DEPART FROM CALVINIST. I AGREE WITH YOU! I WILL SAY IT ONCE MORE: MY EXPERIENCE DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE YOU SAY: I am bitterly disappointed in that I was thinking all this time that I was speaking to one who had the same beliefs that I did. Sadly, I now understand that you do not hold reformed beliefs (salvation by grace through faith alone). PLEASE, GIVE ME A THIRD CHANCE! DO NOT MY WRITINGS SPEAK FOR ITSELF, I MEAN THE ENTIRE BODY OF MY WRITINGS? WHY DO YOU KEEP INSISTING THAT I SAID EXPERIENCE SAVES??? YOU ALSO SAY: And this faith is given us by the Holy Spirit upon hearing the Good News of our complete acceptance in Jesus Christ I REFER YOU TO THE POST I POSTED IN THE OTHER FORUM WE'RE TOGETHER ABOUT THE FAITH OF CHRIST. WHAT COULD BE MORE AGRREABLE. ARE YOU READING MY POSTS ENTIRELY AS I AM READING YOURS OR ARE YOU RESPONDING TO THEM AFTER READING ON OR TWO PARAGRAPHS...? LET'S NOT ALLOW ANY ROOT OF BITTERNESS GROW WITHIN OURSELVES... ESPECIALLY WHEN WE DO NOT DISAGREE! I DO NOT HAVE TO EXPERIENCE NOTHING TO BE SAVED! BUT I THINK YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE ISSUES POST SALVATION... ALSO YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING TO THE PROPOSITIONS I MADE TO YOU PERHAPS BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT READING MY POSTS ENTIRELY!!! JUST TO PROVE THAT WE'RE IN AGREEMENT: WHAT EXPERIENCE CAN ANYONE WHO WAS SAVED AT DEATH CAN HAVE? WHAT EXPERIENCE CAN ANYONE THAT IS MENTALLY ILL CAN HAVE ABOUT HIS/HER SALVATION? WHAT EXPERIENCE COULD THE THIEF HAD WHEN JESUS SAID IN THE CROSS, TODAY YOU SHALL BE WITH ME? WHAT EXPERIENCE AND WITNESS CAN ANYONE HAVE AND BE AFTER BEING SAVED AND BEING STRICKEN WITH ALZHEIMERS OR ANY OTHER MENTAL INCAPACITATING ILLNESS? WHAT EXPERIENCE AND WITNESS ONE CAN HAVE AND BE WHEN HE IS SAVED BEHIND BARS AND IS ON IS WAY TO DEATH ROLL IN COUNTRIES WHERE THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE TV CELEBRITIES? WHAT EXPERIENCE AND WITNESS ONE CAN HAVE AND BE, AS MY AUNT WHO WAS DEAF AND MUTE, BUT WAS OBVIOUSLY SAVED? WHAT EXPERIENCE AND WITNESS ONE MAY HAVE AND BE WHEN AFTER BECOMING A CHRISTIAN, HE HAS HIS HEAD CHOPPED OFF BY A MUSLIM OFFICIAL? WHAT EXPERIENCE AND WITNESS ONE MAY HAVE AND BE WHEN RECOGNIZING HIS HOMOSEXUAL SIN, HE YIELDS TO THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD (THE "I" OF THE TULIP), AT HIS DEATH BED, WHEN AIDS FINALLY KILLS HIM? I could go on and on... If anyone can go on and on it is me... ALL THE ABOVE HAD ONE THING TO VOUCH FOR THEIR SALVATION: WHAT CHRIST DID FOR THEM, THE FAITH THAT CHRIST IMPARTED TO THEM, THE BLOOD THAT CHRIST SHED FOR THEM. NOTHING ELSE. NOT THE MESSAGE OF A PREACHER, NOT THE TESTIMONY THEY HEARD FROM SOMEONE IN THEIR SAME CONDITION, NOT THE READING OF THE GIDEON'S BIBLE, NOT THE MINISTERING OF THE LAST RITES, NOT BECOMING FAMILIAR WITH THE 5 POINTS OF CALVINISM, ETC. I DO BELIEVE, HOWEVER, THAT IF A DYING MAN SURVIVES MIRACULOUSLY AFTER RECEIVING CHRIST, THIS BECOMES AN EXPERIENCE OF FAITH AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS SALVATION. IT CAN ONLY BE USED FOR A TESTIMONY, AND PAUL USED HIS EXPERIENCE AT CONVERSION AS A TESTIMONY. BUT AS YOU CORRECTLY STATE, IT IS JUST A TESTIMONY! PERIOD! NOTE THAT THERE ARE TESTIMONY AND TESTY-BOLOGNA. I BEG YOU TO CHECK ME OUT AGAIN!! IT IS OKAY! BUT I THINK YOU CAN GO IN THE ARCHIVES OF THIS FORUM AND YOU WILL FIND THAT IN OTHER OCCASIONS, I HAD TO "RE-ENFORCE" TO YOU THE REFORMED DOCTRINE. AT LEAST I THINK I DID! ALSO, IF YOU DO NOT MIND A PERSONAL COMMENT WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, ACCORDING TO 1 TIMOTHY 5:1: I CAN GO TO THE SAME ARCHIVE AND I WILL FIND THAT YOU EASILY GET UPSET AND FRUSTRATED WHEN A POINT IS NOT BEING UNDERSTOOD BY YOUR COUNTER PARTY. IF YOU ARE THE SAME PATTI THAT I LOVE AND WILL CONTINUE TO LOVE, AT ONE POINT IN THIS FORUM YOU STARTED A DISCUSSION THEME ON THE PRIDE WE HAVE FOR HOLDING STRONG POSITIONS AND GETTING UPSET FOR NOT BEING UNDERSTOOD. THE THEME WAS "CAN BEING RIGHT BECOME IDOLATROUS?" AND YOU STARTED IT IN AUGUST 31 2000 AT 10:42. AS YOU SEE, I PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO PEOPLE'S BODY OF WRITING BEFORE I SAY, "...WELL, I THOUGHT YOU WERE THIS AND NOW I...." MY POINT IS, I LEARNED THE LESSON AND I DO NOT WANT TO BE IDOLATROUS OF BEING RIGHT, AND I PRAY THAT THE ONE WHO TAUGHT ME SUCH A GOOD LESSON, WILL NOT BE IDOLATROUS OF BEING RIGHT HERSELF! I KNOW YOUR HEART BY YOUR TOTAL BODY OF WRITINGS! I WILL NOT JUDGE YOU BY ONE OR TWO POINTS OF DISAGREEMENTS AND IN OBEDIENCE TO MATTHEW 7 I WILL NOT JUDGE YOU (LABEL YOU) AT ALL. Now, in our current issue, I was speaking of witness POST SALVATION, AS A TESTIMONY OF FAITH! AND I REPEAT, THIS IS ONLY A TESTIMONY! I REITERATE MY APOLOGIES TO YOU FOR CAUSING YOU TO JUDGE ME INCORRECTLY. MY WORDS, AND PERHAPS, ATE LEAST MY ACTIONS IN THIS FORUM ARE TO BLAME! I continue my deep respect and affection for you! If anything I said offend you or in any way caused you SORROW PLEASE FORGIVE ME IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD! If I seem to be contradicting myself and frustrating you, PLEASE FORGIVE ME AS WELL! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
Dear Uncle Milt, No, no, please forgive ME. There is nothing for me to forgive you for! I love you! I am not frustrated with you! I am frustrated with myself and my inability to communicate. And I would never break off our relationship for the sake of a theological disagreement. Some of my best friends and relatives today are still traditionalist SDA. You have come in in the middle of an ongoing tempest (Reformation in a teapot) concerning faith vs. works, the same battle, btw, that I am fighting on the SDA boards, with the C of Cs, with Christadelphians, and even with some Methodists. I DO NOT HAVE TO EXPERIENCE NOTHING TO BE SAVED! BUT I THINK YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE ISSUES POST SALVATION... What is more important than salvation, Uncle Milt? After we understand our acceptance with God for the sake of Jesus Christ, we will become even more obsessed with the Gospel. Salvation is everything. It is our blessed hope; it gives us the ability to get through very long and dark days. If the "fruits of the Spirit" are something that naturally occurs following conversion, then why do the majority of Christians constantly focus on these fruits? If they naturally follow conversion, then we should do what? Preach that everyone must produce fruit? Is this how fruit are produced, from hearing that we must produce fruit? Or preach more of Jesus Christ and His salvation so that others will hear and believe? Preaching about fruits is about as effective as reading about being well to a sick person. Let's slow down a bit. OK. I don't want you to get frustrated with me, either. Here is the foundation of my premise: 1. In the New Testament whenever someone is "filled with the Holy Spirit" it is manifest in what way? By their holy life? Not at all. It is manifest by them testifying of Jesus. In the book of Acts, you can read one incident right after another: Believers, filled with the Holy Spirit testified of the dead and risen Christ; others heard and believed, received the Holy Spirit, testified of Jesus; others heard and believed, etc. The gift of the Holy Spirit is mainly for the spreading of the Gospel, the testimony of Jesus Christ. 2. "Transformed" lives is not the gospel, and it is not our "witness." You will find no NT passages where people were so impressed with the righteousness of the believer that they decided to become a Christian. Someone has given the example of (S)Paul. It was not his conversion from persecuter of the Christians to Christian evangelist that spread the Gospel: IT WAS HIS TESTIMONY OF JESUS. The telling of the Gospel is the only thing that will initiate belief. "FAITH COMES OF HEARING AND HEARING OF THE WORD OF CHRIST." If we don't tell, then they do not "hear." And the Holy Spirit's main work in the New Testament is to inspire belief in and testimony of the savin work of Jesus Christ. 3. "New Creation"--All things HAVE become new. By faith alone. Christ's kingdom HAS COME, yet we still dwell in these bodies of sin. If we think we are regenerated and approaching the holiness of Christ, we either have illusions of grandeur about our own righteousness, or we degrade the holiness of Christ. Christ came to save sinners. The less we feel and acknowledge our sinner-hood the less we will feel and acknowledge our need of a Savior. Perhaps you can understand me better now. I think we can work this out. Since both parties are willing :) God bless you, GA, and I will see you "over yonder." Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: I MYSELF COULD NOT HAVE STATED MY OWN BELIEFS BETTER ON POINTS 1,2, 3 ABOVE. THE DEFENDING OF THESE POINTS HAVE CAUSED PEOPLE TO SHUN ME! It is manifest by them testifying of Jesus. In the book of Acts, you can read one incident right after another: Believers, filled with the Holy Spirit testified of the dead and risen Christ; others heard and believed, received the Holy Spirit, testified of Jesus; others heard and believed, etc. The gift of the Holy Spirit is mainly for the spreading of the Gospel, the testimony of Jesus Christ. Even Paul, in a core of his teachings, states that they could not have testified of the risen Christ still bound by the Law. This is what I am saying in "walk the walk" and "talk the talk". It is funny that at the same time you are battling the battle you mentioned in your post, I am battling UNIVERSALISM on one end and STAUNCH LEGALISM, disguised as "holiness" in the other. Plus, I am dealing with the "gospel" preached in some ethinic churches...(the Jesse Jackson crowd) This issue came in a very interesting time... I Love you in the Lord! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
I guess we are differing on this point: This is what I am saying in "walk the walk" and "talk the talk". We cannot "walk the walk." Our only hope is to depend upon the One Who has not only walked the walk, but finished the course with perfection. His "walking the walk" is our only hope. As for me having to be "right," yes, it is idolatry. And it is pride. So, you see, Uncle Milt, I am not "walking the walk." I can only point others to the saving work of Jesus Christ, the only Object of our testimony, Whose work only is worthy witnessing to. God bless, Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Patti: So, you see, Uncle Milt, I am not "walking the walk." We're in the same PACE, walking together then!:) The day you find anyone walking the walk perfectly and completly, look around; you'll see the walls are made of jasper; and then take your shoes off so you will know how good it feels to walk on the streets of GOLD IN HEAVEN! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Patti and Grace Ambassador, :-)) I just got home from a day on the mountain; hanging out in a wonderful lodge by the fireplace, reading and napping while my son and his friend went snowboarding... I've enjoyed catching up on your conversation just now...:-)) I plan to be walking on those "gold streets" with you two, also!! I've always liked going barefoot best of all, anyway! :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
What do you imagine the sand will be like? Valerie | ||
| Cindy |
....indescribably wonderful! Maybe gold, too? :-)) | ||
| Billtwisse |
A lot is being said here! First of all, brother Milt, I read your responses to my 4 questions and I have no problem with any of them. We are in full agreement! I guess your ministry at present is to the Charismatics, in the same way that each of the rest of us might have a ministry to some other branch of Christendom. I think your exposition of 'when that which is perfect has come' is right on. I also am a Calvinist in soteriology--certainly not in the third use of Moses' law, the 'keys' held by the session (new Levitical priesthood), Sabbaths, tithes, circumcision as infant sprinkling, the 'house of God,' and so forth. There is one point that I would like to add to the discussion between Patti and Milt. We can have no PERSONAL assurance of election apart from God's handiwork in us. I know that you, Patti, will not like this statement at first--judging from what you have been posting here for many months. But it is absolutely true. Salvation was achieved objectively, outside-of-us, once-for-all, finished at Calvary. No merit is inside of us. Having said that--if the Holy Spirit has not created faith in us and made us one of the 'whosoever believeth in him' party, we have no reason to believe that we are included in salvation. In addition, if our faith is not of the type that leads to the good works forordained of the elect (Eph. 2:10), we also have no reason to believe that we are included in salvation. Holy Spirit regeneration in us (resulting in faith and the good works foreordained by God) is not the law or law-covenant. It is the fruit of grace and the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise of law written in the heart. Max: Acts 2:38 certainly illustrates what you are saying: the Holy Spirit comes in full measure with initial salvation by faith. There are some textual and historical issues with water baptism--associated with the Jewish element of the initial apostolic commission in Mt. 28:19. I have written on this in the past. I will elaborate more soon. In the gospel, --Twisse | ||
| Patti |
We can have no PERSONAL assurance of election apart from God's handiwork in us. Which is....? Our changed lives? Scriptural reference, please? know that you, Patti, will not like this statement at first I don't like it at the LAST either. It is contrary to Scripture. ...judgng from what you have been posting here for many months. But it is absolutely true. Salvation was achieved objectively, outside-of-us, once-for-all, finished at Calvary If you have read everything that I have been saying for many months, you will know that THIS is EXACTLY what I have been saying for many months. I am not sure why you are trying to find an issue with my words. And, YES, we CAN know that we are among the elect! (Read the book of Hebrews) Why? Because CHRIST is worthy. Very few here (except Cindy) seem to be content with that message. Therefore, I must leave, because I am sick to despair with this "gospel" of all the wonderfully changed lives around this place. I need the Word of Christ to sustain me, the testimony to the marvelous grace that God has given us in Jesus Christ. Forgive me for my impatience. I suppose Max would say that this is merely an indication that I am exhibiting "bogus grace." So be it. That is why I still need my Savior, I suppose. Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Patti: Being conciliatory without being procured for such, let me attempt to answer your questions and you will find that Brother Bill Twisse is in the same wave length as we are, but YOUR ADMIRABLE ZEAL for GENEUINE GRACE (not bogus), is what we are in agreement with: You ask quoting Brother Twisse: Bill says: We can have no PERSONAL assurance of election apart from God's handiwork in us. Patti challenges: Which is....? Our changed lives? Scriptural reference, please? Here, AGAIN IF I HUMBLY MAY, are some Biblical concepts based upon scriptures that I am sure you know them by heart: - WE WERE DEAD IN OUR TRESPASSES AND SINS WHEN WE WERE SAVED. - Can dead people know that they are elected to be saved? - Ephesians 2 - WE WERE BORN, NOT ACCORDING TO FLESH AND BLOOD OR THE WILL OF MEN, BUT THE WILL OF GOD - If we were born, it means that we were once "unborn". Can an unborn child choose its own destiny? The text clearly shows that we are born of God. God only in control begetting us! Why do John and later Jesus compare or Salvation with a BIRTH. CAN ONE CONTROL HOW AND WHEREBY HE IS BORN BEING YET UNBORN? - John 1 and 3. - WE ARE BORN AGAIN AS THE WIND BLOWS AS JESUS EXPLAINED TO NICK. WE DO NOT KNOW WHERE IT COMES FROM NOR WHERE IT GOES! - John 3. I HAVE DEVELOPED AN ENTIRE THEOLOGICAL THINKING BASED UPON THE ABOVE AND THESE THREE ARGUMENTS ABOVE ARE THE STRONGEST ONES TO LEAD PEOPLE AWAY FROM ARMINIAN DOCTRINE, OR THE FREE WILL FALLACY! Once we're saved, or "born" than we can know what is our: ETHNICITY DATE OF BIRTH OUR DESTINY... I reject the NOTION that you preach a Bogus Grace! In a world of BOGUS EVERYTHING, that which is original will be called BOGUS! Again, I believe WE ARE ALL saying the same thing. By the way, being conciliatory does not imply weakness of character I might add! It could be my pastoral vein! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
GA: I believe WE ARE ALL saying the same thing. But we are not. The new birth is the ability to see and believe in the work of Jesus Christ, NOT regeneration of character or the keeping of the law. It is a perversion of the Gospel, a la Galatians, to say that it refers to anything inside of us. I refer you to John 3, THE born again chapter. John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." 3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see(understand, realize, comprehend; we can only "see" the kingdom of God BY FAITH) the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. And what is the role of the Holy Spirit? See John 16:7-16. You will not find "changed characters" or the ability to please God with our obedience listed. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. People do not like to hear the Gospel, because it reveals to them how utterly sinful they are. They do not wish to come to the Light of the World, because in doing so, the relentless and penetrating light shows them their depravity and total unworthiness. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." 31 "The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 he Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." THIS is the "new birth" in its entirety--recognizing our utter sinfulness and our inability to do anything about it and believing on the One Whose obedience justifies all who believe in Him. It is not, it is NEVER about us; it is about Jesus Christ and Him crucified. We cannot elevate Jesus and ourselves at the same time. And just as Jesus illustrated in the parable of the Pharisee, even when we "give God the glory" for our "good works," then we are elevating ourselves. May Christ and Christ only be elevated among us; for He only is worthy of honor and glory and praise. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Graceambassador |
Patti: ALL IN ACCORDANCE TO BALANCED DOCTRINE, BELIEVE ME! WHAT YOU SAID IS A CREED IN AND OF ITSELF. I was ONLY responding to your challenge to find biblical base for one NOT TO KNOW BEFOREHAND that he is an elect! on your statement: ...NOT regeneration of character or the keeping of the law... Unless I am stricken by an accute case of ILLETERACY, I have not read anyone of us, you, Bill or I, saying anything contrary to the above. Just as much as being conciliatory is not weakness of character, so it is not being AGREEABLE! If you'd rather insist that we are not saying the same thing, then I cannot say the same thing myself about you saying that we're not saying the same thing! Figure this out.  Grace Ambassador | ||
| Cindy |
Grace Ambassador/Uncle Milt! :-)) Good evening... I'm sure you are swamped with your own work, but if you get the time, go to the thread "For sinners only..." and read the poem posted there just last night (Sunday) entitled "The Gospel According to You". I would be interested to know your comments and observations on the message it gives. I definitely think by our actions we can bring positive thinking, and a desire to know more! of the wonderful message of the Gospel--the unmerited favor of "Christ crucified for us!" on the Cross)... Or we can bring DIS-GRACE on the cause of Christ by our actions... and yet... Is it US that the message revolves around? (The "gospel" according to "you"...) Even if the "holiness" we exude comes from Christ alone? Can we still proclaim a once-and-for-all Substitutionary Sacrifice for sin that only Christ did? He alone bore our sin. It seems like this historical FACT can and should be our unifying FOCUS.... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Graceambassador |
Hi Cindy: I just read the poem you mentioned and found it very thought provoking. I also find it a historical fact that Christians, former Jews who had a form of religiosity, when they got to know Christ, their lives changed: - Zaccheus decided to go around town and face every person he ever defrauded and make restitution... The difference between Zaccheus and the rich young ruler is that Zaccheus was saved and enjoyed it. His Salvation was caused him to be so joyful that he ignored his small stature and corageously faced his victims to make ammends! On the other hand, the rich young ruler, who was probably also saved, because the Bible says that Jesus loved him, (let's not get into an argument), but he could not enjoy because of his love for his richness and inability to share! Sharing was NOT A CONDITION FOR HIS SALVATION, BUT THE FRUIT THEREOF! Jesus Himself said in Matthew 5:17, and here is a praraphrase by another young Christian comtemporary group called the Newsboys: SHINE, MAKE'EM WONDER WHAT YOU'VE GOT MAKE'EM WISH THAT THEY WERE NOT ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING BORED SHINE, LET IT SHINE BEFORE ALL MEN LET THEM SEE YOU ONCE AND THEN LET THEM GLORIFY THE LORD... Matthew 5:16 by the way is the PROOF text that our actions witness so strongly of OUR SALVATION, WHICH IS NOT DEPENDENT UPON OUR ACTIONS, that it brings GLORY TO GOD from "men" an expression not commonly used to identify the "saved ones". In summary, our light, when shining, will bring Glory to God even from hell bound sinners! I often humble myself before God when I see someone defending continuance of the "unconverted life after Salvation" because my ministerial experience tells me that there is an underlying struggle there, perhaps in the family perhaps with oneself. This discussion I am having here I OFTEN have time with the members of the REFORMED CHURCH. Then, when you crack their pride and go into their shell, you find all kinds of areas that need a lot of Spriritual help! Salvation IS OF THE LORD! If he decided to save someone about whom PAUL asks not to pray for, that SATAN WOULD TAKE HIS BODY SO HIS SOUL MAY BE SPARED, 1 COR 5:5, because of a rejection to Godly discipline, I just say, PRAISE HIS NAME FOR HIS GRACE! I MAY BE THIS PERSON ONE DAY! But I wonder if I had to tell people about the Lord, having a bad reputation, if that would be appropriate. My message could be just the same as it is when I am better because I am already PERFECT BEFORE GOD! But it would be as a tinkling cymbal A person who disagrees with this HAS NO RIGHT TO REJECT THE MINISTRY OF SOME OF THIS SCANDALOUS TV MINISTERS! As I mentioned 1 Cor 13, I was reminded of the fact that Jesus said that the world has the right not to accept us as disciples of Jesus if we do not LOVE ONE ANOTHER! What can be more CLEAR about the importance of our "acting" POST SALVATION? I just wanto to tell you about a terrible experience: (YES IT IS JUST AN EXPERIENCE...) One night in a Church in Brazil, in a bad area of the inner city, where demon possession is noticeable even by the unitiated, a man, who was SAVED, SPIRUTALLY SANCTIFIED AND THAT WAS INDEED ALREADY ETERNALLY PERFECT BEFORE THE LORD, but who, that night had taken more that a "few drinks" decided to cast out the demon of a "witch" who was disturbing our service... I will stop here... It was beyond sad! Was it the drink, was it the smell, was it the fact that by drinking and smelling as such he lost his eternal status with God? NOT SO! Not in a million years... There is no such a thing. If we are not faithful, HE REMAINS FAITHFUL! What was it then? Was the devil so powerful that night that the name of Jesus was of no authority? I say NO! SPIRITUALLY AND ETERNALLY that man was in perfect status with God, but the devil refused to receive his testimony since THE MAN HIMSELF HAD NO REGARD FOR IT! (This event resembles one that happened with the sons of Sceeva in Acts 19 where the devil says "I know Jesus, I know Paul, but who in the GEHENA are you...? (my paraphrase). Both Paul and those men and the man of my experience above, could have been doing the work of God. There is no indication that they were not! Why then the devil had no respect for their authority in Jesus...? Answer anyway you want! But SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY, something NOT TAUGHT IN THE CHURCHES I MENTIONED ABOVE, is derived from SHINING! ...so again... SHINE, MAKE'M WONDER WHAT YOU'VE GOT MAKE'M WHISH THAT THEY WERE NOT ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING BORED SHINE, LET IT SHINE BEFORE ALL MEN LET THEM SEE YOU ONCE AND THEN LET THEM GLORIFY THE LORD... Cindy, you've been so gracious and that is apart from agreeing with me. But I think I am not helping on the theme of this discussion. There is this cloud of suspicion that I am being deceptive as to my REFORMED beliefs. I do not want my brothers and sisters TO PLACE THEMSELVES IN THE PLACE OF JUDGEMENT THEMSELVES FOR JUDGING ME, according to Matt. 7, and I DO NOT WANT THEM TO SIN FOR MISJUDGING ME EITHER. So I will drop this issue if you do not mind! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
Dear Uncle Milt, I must take exception to this statement: I often humble myself before God when I see someone defending continuance of the "unconverted life after Salvation" because my ministerial experience tells me that there is an underlying struggle there, perhaps in the family perhaps with oneself. In the first place, neither Cindy nor myself is "defending the continuance of the unconverted life after salvation." For you, unlike scholars of the reformed faith, conversion = changed character. Biblically though, conversion = believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. We are not "defending" it, because it needs no defense. It is a fact. We cannot help but "continue" a sinful life, because we are, as everyone on here admits, and will remain sinful until the day we die or until Christ comes. This is a phenomenon I find very puzzling. In fact, it is paradoxical: Although everyone owns up to his/her own continued sinnerhood, if someone comes along and proclaims that our "changed lives" are not our testimony, people get very edgy and defensive of their yet-sin-filled lives. If we are not PERFECT, we are yet sinners. Are there DEGREES of sinnerhood? A sinner is one who commits sin. There is no degree. The Bible is very clear on this: If we are guilty of THE LEAST COMMANDMENT written in the Book of the Law, we are guilty of breaking them all. If we become proud of winning an argument, or if we help ourselves to the largest piece of pie or the best seat in the house, or if we become angry or impatient with our neighbors, if we gossip about our neighbors, or if we fail to give away all we have to the poor, we are just as guilty and worthy of eternal death as Adolph Hitler or Joseph Stalin. There are no degrees to sin. (To believe so is to step back into medieval Roman Catholic theology, so that sins are classified according to how offensive they are to God. All sin is offensive to God. The smallest sin separates us from God. Remember Adam and Eve?) Therefore, I find it futile, at best, to try to outline the "changes" of the "converted character." If we have any sin in us at all, we are still sinners, worthy of eternal death. We may experience some "warm fuzzies" about what we think is our well-doing, but ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES remain as FILTHY RAGS. And can never glorify God. If we think that they can, we are truly in a Laodicean condition. It is just like the story of the Emperor's new clothes: We THINK we are all dressed up in splendid raiment, when in actuality we are poor and blind and naked. And we make God sick at His stomach. There is only one Righteousness that we can present as an offering to God, and that is the obedience of Jesus Christ Himself. There is only one Righteousness worthy of mentioning. How can we even consider our own pitiful "works" in the light of the perfection and holiness of the Lamb of God? May God give us the eyesalve of the Holy Spirit to see our complete and perpetual sinfulness and our great and permanent need of the mercy of God for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, our Substitute and Surety, the Author and Finisher of our faith, our Righteousness before the Father, and our only hope for eternity. Grace and peace, Patti |
