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Max
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kelly, I'll answer your questions in separate
posts this time.

^^What is a lexicon?^^

A lexicon is a dictionary. A Greek-English
lexicon is a dictionary of Greek words defined
in English.

If you feel you need one, you can get it at any
good Christian book store or have it ordered
for you at any book store or buy it on-line at
Amazon.com.
Max
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^As I don't know what kind of concordance or
reference material to get can you offer some
suggestions?^^

If I were you I would go to a good, large
Christian book store and talk to their reference
specialist. Make sure that the person with
whom you talk really knows what s/he's talking
about and isn't just a salesperson trying to
"make a sale." The fact that a person may
claim Christ doesn't necessarily mean s/he
behaves as Christ would.
Max
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't go to an ABC = Christian Book Center =
SDA Book and Bible House.
Max
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^What kind of concordance are you using to
find all this in the original language?^^

I'm not a Greek scholar, though I've taken
Koine (New Testament) Greek in college and
seminary. Right now I use an interlinear
Greek-English New Testament and a
Greek-English lexicon. I also rely on
specialists in biblical languages and on the
text notes in the New International Version
Study Bible.
Max
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oops. I should have posted:

^^Don't go to an ABC = Adventist Book Center
= SDA Book and Bible House.^^
Max
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Friend-in-Christ Kelly,

^^Part of me agrees that, "yes, these are
different" and the other part says "how much
difference can there really be between law and
commandment in the original language. I see
that they are based on different words but they
are still very much the same."^^

I'm astounded and absolutely thrilled at how
open minded you are to truth. I must admit --
you are certainly refreshing!

I've been keenly disappointed so many times
by Adventists who turned out to be "bewitched"
people (Galatians 3) who weren't interested
in discovering truth at all, but rather only in
"being right."

It's probably time to tackle some texts that are
really difficult for our friends the Adventists to
accept.

One of the most difficult is (NIV):

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your
sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful
nature, God made you alive with Christ. He
forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the written code [law of
Moses], with its regulations [required
circumcision, Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying,
ham-shunning], that was against us and that
stood opposed to us; he took it [the old
covenant law] away, nailing it to the cross.
15 And having disarmed the powers and
authorities [evil angels], he made a public
spectacle of them, triumphing over them by
the cross.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by
what you eat [such as honey-baked ham] or
drink [such as wine], or with regard to a
religious festival [yearly Sabbath such as
Passover], a New Moon [monthly Sabbath]
celebration or a [weekly] Sabbath day.
17 These are a SHADOW of the things that
were to come; the REALITY, however, is found
in Christ.
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false
humility and the worship of angels [such as
Michael the archangel] disqualify you for the
prize. Such a person goes into great detail
about what he has seen, and his unspiritual
mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19 He has lost connection with the Head, from
whom the whole body, supported and held
together by its ligaments and sinews, grows
as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic
principles of this world, why, as though you
still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
21 "Do not handle! Do not taste [shrimp,
lobster or clam chowder]! Do not touch!"?
22 These are all destined to perish with use,
because they are based on human
commands and teachings.
23 Such regulations indeed have an
appearance of wisdom, with their self-
imposed worship, their false humility and their
harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any
value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Hope this text isn't too harsh for you at this
stage of your growing in grace. The point is
not that Christ did away with the Ten
Commandments. The point is that He fulfilled
them by his life, death and resurrection. In so
doing he summed up the entire 613 Old
Testament laws in one commandment: "Thou
shalt love." Love IS the fulfilling of the law. For
if you love God you're not going to take his
name in vain. And if you love your fellow
human being you're not going to covet his
possessions, steal from him, lie to him, cheat
him, hate him, murder him, commit adultery
with him, or do anything else that betrays the
love of Christ written on your heart.

Nor are you going to slip back into the
legalism of the law by thinking that you need
to be circumcised (or marry a circumcised
man), keep the Sabbath, pay tithe, or shun
ham in order to be saved.

You're not even going to refrain from hating,
murdering, fornicating, cheating, lying,
stealing, etc., IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.

But you ARE going to refrain from doing these
things BECAUSE YOU ARE ALREADY SAVED
in Christ Jesus our loving Lord.

Blessings to you as you carry your cross in the
kingdom of heaven that exists here and now
(Luke 17:20-21),

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly, God Bless you. Valerie
Maryann
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kelly,

My thought's were the same as Max's as I was reading your post and skimming the rest:

"I'm astounded and absolutely thrilled at how
open minded you are to truth. I must admit --
you are certainly refreshing!"

You really are a breath of fresh air.

IBC=Insured By Christ
Kelly
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know what to say in response to your comment. I certainly don't feel like something "refreshing" or anything like a "breath of fresh air". I have felt quite the opposite. Something close to mentally unstable!!

I'm not sure I know what to do with the information that is floating around in my head. It's all such a mess. And in a way I would rather go back to the "less informed" way things were.

Max,I will have to get back to you on what you last posted. I'm not sure that I can process it right now. I really must decide where my stand is going to be on what I have learning already. I understand what you all are saying. But I haven't decided whether I believe it or not.

And, thank you Denise for recommending the online Bible site. That was very informative and easy to use!
Kelly
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's been easy to converse with you guys. I've heard all of this before for my "friend", but there were so many emotions between us. I was not open minded with her at all. Infact, I know that I hurt her deeply. After she initially told me about what she had found (truth) I treated her like a disease. I only responded to her letters, I never initiated anything and I still don't. Believe me, I'm anything but a "breathe of fresh air".

Part of my open mindness is from the extreme respect that I have for my friend who left the church. But I can't be open minded with her. She has been patient and never seemed to have gotten angry with me, but I certainly have been with her. In a way, I guess I still am. She "messed" up my Adventist world. I was comfortable and she messed it up. And, now the conflict in my mind makes me feels like a mental case. The way I feel about my friend doesn't really seem to make much sense. I respect her but I also resent her.

Pray for me, please.
Valm
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly,

You make more sense than you realize at the present time. Be patient and loving towards yourself. In God's good timing you will come through this.

Yes I will pray for you. And remember you are God's own forever.

Valerie
Max
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

God love you, Kelly,

The reason why you're a breath of fresh air, a
cool drink of water, is your honesty. It's almost
unbelievable! I admit I've questioned in my
heart whether or not you were "a job put up" by
"the bretheren." Believe me, this does and has
happened -- I know from personal experience
and from the experiences of close friends.

I doubt that your friend is as hurt as you may
think. For she surely believes that it is the Holy
Spirit of the sovereign God who is leading you.
So she has left your heart in God's capable
hands. She doesn't sound codependent or
dysfunctional to me.

You certainly don't come across as a mental
case. Quite the opposite. The true mental
cases are those "bewitched" people
(Galatians 3) who are in denial about truth.

Remember, God loves you more than you can
possibly love yourself,

Max of the Cross
Kelly
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm assuming that when you say "a job put up by the brethren" that you mean someone sent from the SDA organization to plant "their" truth into the minds of whoever may post or read here. I haven't seen that, but I haven't read too many threads either.

I have tried to read some of the other threads, the newer ones. You all seem to be very familiar with each other. Do you all live in the same area?

And, Max, you said you went to seminary. Did you go to seminary before or after you left Adventism? Are you a minister now?

I'm very curious to know what happened to you all that caused you to search for a different truth than Adventism. And how you found it?

I'm struggling. If you can't tell!!! And, under the circumstances I don't know if it is worth the fight. In re-reading the scripture that Max quoted above Col. 2 the phrase the jumped out at me was: "Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen".

Right now one of the "biggies" for me is the dissolving of my trust in E.W., it's been difficult for me to accept the fact that she lied about things. I read a little bit about her comments on the Law and the Covenants in PP. (I know I said I wasn't going to read "her") But what I found was a lie! She made the statement that Noah and his sons had the 10 commandments on the ark!!! Even I know that the "10 commandments" were not given until after Israel excaped from Egypt! I think it was on page 363, it's the first page of the chapter called the Law and the Covenant. But what I have now are an entire lifetime of confused facts about what is in scripture and what is in E.W.! I'll think that I have a rebuttal to some of your comments and then when I try to find it in scripture I can't. It's not in there!

Thank you Max for taking the time to elaborate on what certain words meant in Col. 2. In comparting what you wrote with the things that Denise wrote and then checking them out on that blueprintbible website it has made things fairly clear. I'm just having a problem with the actual "OK, this is right, I accept this as the truth!"

What happens if what you accept as truth is wrong? How do you know? Obviously things that I have been taught all my life are not correct, but I believed them and accepted them as truth. How do I know that I'm not just falling for a different kind of deception this time? If I'm going to make a decision that could turn my world completely upside down I need to know that it is Christ that I am following and not some kind of deceiving spirit!

I'm having to ignore one of the "safety nets" of Adventist thought. The one that says you can't believe those people because they don't keep the Sabbath! That's why I rejected my friend. My frame of reference told me she was of the devil, a deceiving spirit.

Is this what spiritual warfare is?
Patti
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2001 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly,
I am going to give you some advice that you probably don't want. Do not leave the SDA church unless it is for the sake of the Gospel. There is no other valid reason.

Having said that, I do know some very Gospel-centered SDAs, people that I am happy to communicate with. They observe the sabbath, and I have no problem with it. I do not observe the sabbath, and they have no problem with it. They are vegans, I eat whatever is put in front of me (and then some!) with gratitude. And we have no problems with that.

The secret: We are united in faith in Jesus Christ. We believe that there is absolutely nothing we can do to affect our salvation one way or another but to "merely" trust in the One Who has worked out our salvation completely. I put merely in quotes, because there is nothing "mere" about faith. It is not easy to keep believing in that which you have no tangible evidence of, (in fact, it is IMPOSSIBLE without the strength given us by the Holy Spirit) but we are promised that God is able to keep us unto that day.

Kelly, let no one pressure you to leave the church. I disagree with much of what the church teaches, but I have seen so many people leave the SDA church because of her error and they turn around and start searching for yet another "true" church. There is no true church, Kelly, at least there is no denomination that contains the truth of God. There is only one True Church and it cannot be bound by bricks and mortar and by denominational boundaries. It is the great Church universal and triumphant comprised of those throughout the ages who trust in God's salvation.

Study the Gospels, especially John, study Romans. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." The Gospel is first and foremost. If you have the Gospel, you have everything. If you do not have the Gospel, you have nothing.

I hope I have made myself clear. Do not worry about artificial church boundaries. God's Truth (Jesus Christ) is too grand and too magnificent to be monopolized by ANY human organization. Search for Him, and let everything else fall into place on its own.

May God truly bless you with the knowledge and conviction of your acceptance by God--right now--for the sake of the awesome, once-for-all, all-sufficient saving work of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace and peace always
Patti
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kelly;-))

Whoa! You have alot going on in your mind and a bunch of churning in your stomach!

You truly are a "breath of fresh air" as you have shared so openly about what is going on. Well, anonymity can really help you express too.

There are several that have posted their e-mails. If you are comfortable enough, e-write one of us and we can go from there. Mine is:

christyoureternallife@hotmail.com

Patti said:

"There is no true church, Kelly, at least there is no denomination that contains the truth of God. There is only one True Church and it cannot be bound by bricks and mortar and by denominational boundaries. It is the great Church universal and triumphant comprised of those throughout the ages who trust in God's salvation."

You mentioned that we seem to know each other quite well. Well, some of us do know each other in person and other's are on opposite ends of this country. We have a common bond that we share. We love the Lord and we believe that Christ died for our sins, past, present and future. We believe that there is nothing, no good work, that we can do to gain an entrance to heaven. We believe in Salvation By Grace Alone! We believe that when Christ said, "It is finished," he had us/me in mind. That is a very simplistic statement of, at least my belief, and this bond we share is called "The Family of God."

I truly am glad that you have been posting and hope to hear from you.

Maryann
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 7:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Kelly,

Everything you are saying about the turmoil you are feeling is so normal. And I wish to give you a cyber hug (((((((**))))))))

I agree with Patti that it is not the leaving of The Adventist church that is important. It is the understanding and thriving under the Gospel message that is important.

Each and everyone's situation is different. I gradually left the Church for other reason's than careful study. I married a Catholic guy and we joined the Episcopalian faith.

I could hardly imagine your position of possibly leaving the SDA faith and possibly destroying my marriage and hurting my children.

I would encourage you to not focus on leaving Adventism but focus on understanding the Gospel. The rest will fall into place in God's timing.

Take care God's Own Dear One. You will always be so no matter where you worship.

Valerie
Max
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Morning Kelly,

And Shabbat Shalom to you!

I have an old friend from seminary who
pastors one of the largest and wealthiest SDA
congregations in the North American Division.
He has long since rejected all the anti-
christian aspects of Adventism.

About the Sabbath he says, When you can
mow your lawn on the Sabbath then you
understand its new covenant meaning.

About EGW he says, "She's a fraud."

This man is grace-filled and knows the Lord.
He hangs in there with his pastorate because
he believes he can do more good as a
missionary within Adventism than he could do
if he left that pesky old paycheck behind.

You can do the same. And it should be much
easier for you to do than for him. He has to
preach, baptize, counsel, meet Conference
goals, etc., etc., etc.

It is the Lord who is sovereign. Let him tell you
what to do, not me or anyone else. Your
salvation is eternal and safe in his hands.

Jesus says, "My sheep listen to my voice; I
know them, and they follow me. I give them
eternal life, and they shall never perish; NO
ONE can snatch them out of my hand. My
Father, who has given them to me, is greater
than all, no one can snatch them out of my
Father's hand. I an the Father are one." NIV
John 10:27-30.

"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun
of righteousness arise with healing in his
wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as
calves of the stall." KJV Malachi 4:2.

Max of the Cross
Kelly
Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2001 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

THANK YOU!!!!
Kelly
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I need your help again. I'm stuck on several scriptures and I just can't get passed them. I tried using the www.blueletterbible. It cross referenced all the scriptures that I don't understand which was no help at all. Not to me anyway!

Luke 16:17 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law"

Sounds like the re-enforcement of the 10 commandments to me. It would be easier for the heaven and earth to disappear before the Law will disappear. I know it has the illustration of the divorce but that also sounds like you can't just get rid of the Law just because something better (grace) comes along. I don't understand.

It cross referenced this text with Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away". Weren't the 10 commandments Gods words?

And, I know you've been expecting this one!!! It's Mat. 5:18 "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." This verse re-enforces that same thing: The law does not go away until heaven and earth have gone away and heaven and earth are still here.

These verses seem to contradict what I've been reading in Galatians 4. The analogy of Haggar and Sarah. Gal. 5:26 commands us to "keep on walking in the Spirit" and it says "if you are led by the Spirit then you are not under law". and Rom 8:3 "For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering"

Is this saying what I think it is? That the law was not able to save us and that God sent Christ to replace the law. What I've always been taught was that God sent Christ and then He gave us the Holy Spirit which enabled us to keep the law just like Christ did-perfectly.

This chapter goes on to say that: "the righteous requirements of the law are met in us......who live according to the Spirit".

Which goes back to if you are under the Spirit you are not under the law. Right?

So, how do those first few texts agree with these last ones? Heaven and earth are still here and these texts seem to imply that the law will be here longer than heaven and earth.

Everytime I seem to have a breakthrough in understanding something I seem to get trapped in something else!!!
Max
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2001 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly, I don't have time to do justice to your
questions right now. I will take one, the first
one, and comment briefly. Perhaps others can
also be of assistance to you.

Luke 16:17 "The Law and the Prophets were
proclaimed until John. Since that time, the
good news of the kingdom of God is being
preached, and everyone is forcing his way into
it. It is easier for heaven and earth to
disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to
drop out of the Law"

The NIV text note to this verse says this:

"The ministry of Jesus (introducing the new
covenant era) was FULFILLMENT of the law
(defining the old covenant era) in the most
minute detail." Compare also Luke 21:33 and
Matthew 5:17-18.

There is a similar passage in Matthew:

NIV Matthew 11:1213 "And from the days of
John the Baptist until now the kingdom of
heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take
it by force. For all the prophets and the law
prophesied until John."

The terms "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom
of God" refer to the fact that believers do not
have to wait till the Second Coming to go to
heaven. Heaven begins now. Heaven is within
us. Heaven is among us. (Luke 17:20-21.)

The fact that it has been "forcefully advancing"
since the time of John the Baptist means that
it came with the coming of Christ.

Thus, heaven is where Christ is. And Christ is
in our hearts, therefore heaven is in our
hearts.

The fact that "forceful men lay hold of it" MAY
mean that evil people were coming into the
kingdom of heaven and taking advantage of it
-- such as "shearing the sheep."

At any rate, these and similar texts CANNOT
mean that the Law of Moses is being upheld
as a new covenant standard. Christ is the new
covenant Standard, not the Law of Moses.

The NIV text note to the term "Prophets and the
Law" says the following:

"The entire Old Testament prophesied the
coming of the kingdom. John represented the
end of the old economy."

I think the NIV scholars could have used a
better term than "the old economy." It's not
spiritual enough.

But the bottom line remains the same: The
Law of Christ -- love in the heart -- is
SUPERIOR to the Law of Moses. The Law of
Christ SUPERCEDES the Law of Moses. The
Law of Christ EXISTED BEFORE the Law of
Moses. The Law of Moses was added
because of sin. It came 450 years AFTER the
promise to Abraham. It was only temporary.
The Sabbath was its seal.

The Law of Christ -- love is the fulfilling of the
law -- is more than just the new covenant. It is
also the everlasting covenant, which the Law
of Moses is not. And the Holy Spirit is its seal.

Required Sabbath-keeping is NOT the seal of
God, nor is Sunday-keeping the mark of the
beast. It may take a looong time for that idea to
subside in formers' minds. But subside and
disappear it must.

Must go now,

Blessings to you, Kelly, child of God, eternally
saved with a salvation that cannot be
snatched out of the Good Shepherd's hand,

Max of the Cross

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