| Author |
Message |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 3:53 pm: |     |
Max,
In part you said:
>>
Later revelation may help us to understand
earlier revelation, but it CANNOT contradict it.<<
Now if only the SDA Church would ahold of this truth. If they would have realized or admitted to this, then there wouldn't be a need for the IJ and other such heresies.
Thank you and God Bless you always,
DtB |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 4:11 pm: | |
Like so many dysfunctionals among us they
couldn't admit to error. So they compensated
by changing Scripture to suit their error. Neat
trick if you can pull it off. And, apparently, for
ten million people around the world it has
been pulled off.
So, Denise, I have a question to ask you:
If there were no Seventh-day Adventist church
to kick around -- and I admit, I am "the chief of
kickers" -- would it be necessary to invent
one?
MC |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 4:38 pm: | |
Consider this statement:
The World's Greatest Need.--The greatest
want of the world is the want of men,--men
who will not be bought or sold; men who in
their inmost souls are true and honest; men
who do not fear to call sin by its right name;
men whose conscience is as true to duty as
the needle to the pole; men who will stand for
the right though the heavens fall. --Ellen G.
White.
It's found in at least seven different books
ATTRIBUTED to her:
1. Colporteur Ministry, page 54.
2. Education, page 57.
3. Sons and Daughters of God, page 214.
4. Welfare Ministry, page 300.
5. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March
21, 1893 (collected).
6. The Signs of the Times, May 4, 1882
(collected).
7. Ellen G. White Volume 3 The Lonely Years
1876-1891, page 193.
And she didn't even write it. She plagiarized it
-- a literary term for: She burgled it, stole it.
Now I have five questions to ask you:
1. Could this woman be bought and sold?
2. Was she in her inmost soul true and
honest?
3. Did she fear to call sin -- such as her own
plagiarism or thievery -- by its right name?
4. Was her conscience as true to duty as the
needle to the pole?
5. Would she stand for the right though the
heavens fall?
Points to ponder on a February afternoon in
AD 2001.
MC |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 5:52 pm: | |
Dear Max,
You asked:
>>
If there were no Seventh-day Adventist church
to kick around -- and I admit, I am "the chief of
kickers" -- would it be necessary to invent
one?<<
No. But only because there are many other denominations that undermine who God is in their teachings.
Not only do they teach heresies and doctrines taught by men, they are forgetting that God is Sovereign.
However, do I believe these are necessary evils?
Perhaps yes. The thinking behind that is in the fact that God orders satan and his demons, to do His will. God controls satan.
Everything created is in the will of God.
Why? So God's Glory and Sovereignty will be revealed. His plan.
We have been chosen by God as instruments through which God reveals His Glory by virtue of what He has foreordained us to do. His workmanship.
We too, like everything else created, good and evil are simply the vessels through which God foreordained to do His will.
God Bless and I hope this satifies as an answer.
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus our Savior and Creator.
P.S. If you believe I am way off track with my thinking, then please correct my understanding and the way in which I view these matters. Lord knows, I can use all the help I can get..:)) |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 5:58 pm: | |
Hello Max,
Ellen White failed to live a life that employed every one of those five statements.
Blessings always,
DtB, loving you in Christ Jesus |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 6:33 pm: | |
Denise,
Think of the denial of morality and spirituality
and the perversity of any person who would
behave as Ellen G. White behaved.
Stealing a profound statement like this one:
The greatest want of the world is the want of
men -- men who will not be bought or sold;
men who in their inmost souls are true and
honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its
right name; men whose conscience is as true
to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will
stand for the right though the heavens fall.
Not paying for it.
Not giving credit to the person who did write it.
Claiming credit for it herself.
Implying that she personally got it from God --
this one takes the cake!
Does anyone want to dispute the idea that
God has reserved for Ellen G. White a special
oven in the the very core of that great burning
sphere called hell?
Dear friends, what have we escaped from? Do
we yet have any really clear idea?
Or are more shocks coming?
MC |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 7:29 pm: | |
Dear Max,
She indeed has led many to error. The GC et al are also responsible for propagating such things.
That statement above supposedly given to egw from God is not what I see in Ellen White nor the GC.
We have escaped hell itself and have God Almighty to thank for showing us His Truth.
To those that chose to remain blind, I pity. For the Bible so declares that they shall NOT inherit eternal life.
Who is the originator of that statement that Ellen claims to be given her by God? Do you know?
I believe that because it has been 150 years of lies and coverups and the fact that only in the past 20 or so years have these errors been really exposed, that we do indeed have more shocks coming.
That is my humble opinion anyhow.
God Bless you my brother Max,
DtB, your sister in the Word |
Valm
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 7:43 pm: | |
Max,
That is a profound statement. Who did actually write it?
I do not like ANY of what EGW has done. But I suppose I see her as a very sick person and God will be her rightful judge. It is not mine to be angry or to judge.
Valerie |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 10:41 pm: | |
Dear Valerie,
Anger I do feel at any teaching that goes against God Almighty.
In the epistles we are told to test the spirits, which constitutes judgement. We need to be of sound judgement according to God's Word.
Discernment is one of the fruits of the Spirit.
While I cannot say the EGW will go to hell or not, I can say that certain teachings goes directly against Scripture and I speak out when these things are put in front of me. I must and can do no other.
Ultimately, it will be God who decides who goes to hell or not. But in this life, we must always compare teachings with Scripture.
God's Blessings always to you and your family,
DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 5:26 am: | |
Dear Max, I feel like you often overwhelm people with scripture and long posts, and that many times you come across as though you think that you are infallible, and to me it seems like a matter of pride. it is something you should consider as I have seen it often happen on this forum.
taken from: http://www.aristotle.net/~bhuie/satan.htm although I disagree with his description that he thinks that hell is finite
First, let's examine what the Bible reveals about the origin of Satan and the demons.
EZEKIEL 28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 16 By the abundance of your trading [rekullatek] you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. 17 Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor . . ." (NKJV)
REVELATION 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. . . . (NKJV)
LUKE 10:17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (NKJV)
From the preceding Scriptures, we can learn several things about Satan and the fallen angels. In the beginning, this "anointed cherub" was created as a wise, beautiful, and powerful angel. He apparently was one of the two cherubs who cover the mercy seat (God's throne) with their wings (see Heb. 8:5; 9:5, 23-24; Exo. 25:20; 37:9; I Kin. 6:19-28; 8:6-7; I Chr. 28:18; II Chr.3:10-13; 5:7-8). However, because of pride in his beauty, this cherub's wisdom was corrupted.
Satan is symbolically called the "king of Tyre" (Eze. 28:12). The coastal city-state of Tyre was one of the world's greatest traders during Israel's monarch period. Isaiah calls Tyre "the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose traders were the honored of the earth" (Isa. 23:8).
Although the Scriptures don't define the trade Satan was engaged in, it clearly tells us that because of the abundance of his trade, he sinned. Possibly Satan implemented a system of competition rather than cooperation, which eventually filled him with violence, causing his iniquity.
The word rendered "trading" in the NKJV translation of Ezekiel 28:16 is a form of the Hebrew noun rekulla, which means "traffic" or "merchandise." This particular form of rekulla is only found five times, all in Ezekiel (Eze. 26:12; 27:20, 23; 28:16, 18).
However, rekulla is derived from the root word rakal. It's relevant to note that a closely-related derivative, rakil, means "slanderer." It's used in this context six times (Lev. 19:16; Jer. 6:28; 9:4; Eze. 22:9; Pro. 11:13; 20:19). The account of Satan in Ezekiel 28 could well involve aspects of both these meanings. In the New Testament, this fallen angel is often called the "devil," or the diabolos in the Greek (Matt. 4:1, 5, 8, 11; 13:39; 25:41; Luke 4:2, 3, 6, 13; 8:12; John 8:44; 13:2; Acts 10:38; 13:10; Eph. 4:27; 6:11; I Tim. 3:6, 7; II Tim. 2:26; Heb. 2:14; Jam. 4:27; I Pet. 5:8; I John 3:8, 10; Jude 9; Rev. 2:10; 12:9, 12; 20:2, 10). Not coincidentally, the literal meaning of diabolos and its variations is "slanderer."
It's possible that through his "slander" and "gossip," Satan turned one-third of the angelic host against God. We know that Satan tried this approach in the Garden of Eden, when he misrepresented God's motives to Eve (Gen. 3:1-5). The angelic forces loyal to God eventually had to cast this "anointed cherub," along with his allies, out of heaven. From that point forward he became known in Hebrew as Ha-Satan, or "the Adversary."
Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible reveals that Satan and some of his demons were not confined to hell after their initial expulsion from heaven. Indeed, the Old Testament shows that, before the first coming of Yeshua the Messiah, Satan and the demons continued to have access to the very throne of God.
JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. (NKJV)
JOB 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. (NKJV)
ZECHARIAH 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. (NASB)
The devil's primary role, as shown above in Zechariah 3:1, was the accuser of God's people. However, when Christ triumphantly returned to heaven after his crucifixion and resurrection (Rev. 12:5), Satan and his demons were once again cast out, as the ensuing passage from Revelation tells us.
REVELATION 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world -- he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (RSV)
Some have incorrectly believed that this passage refers to Satan's initial expulsion from heaven. Yet the time sequence established in Revelation 12 clearly indicates that this ejection from heaven is after the first coming of Christ and before his second coming at the end of this age.
Yeshua, just before his crucifixion, stated that his triumph on the cross would allow for Satan to be cast out of heaven.
JOHN 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; 32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show by what death he was to die. (RSV)
Christ told his disciples that when he had gone back into heaven after his resurrection, the Father would send His Holy Spirit to teach them all things and bring them into remembrance of all the things that he had said to them (John 14:26). But in addition, he warned them of the coming of Satan to the earth after his departure.
JOHN 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me." (NKJV)
The Bible shows that God uses the fallen angels to accomplish certain tasks which fulfill His plan.
I KINGS 22:19 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one [spirit] spoke in this manner, and another [spirit] spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you." (NKJV)
This same incident is also recorded in II Chronicles 18:18-22. The story of Saul recorded in II Samuel reveals another instance where God used an evil spirit to do His will.
I SAMUEL 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. 15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord now command your servants, who are before you, to seek out a man who is skilful in playing the lyre; and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well. . . ." 23 And whenever the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand; so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. (RSV)
I SAMUEL 18:10 And on the morrow an evil spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand; 11 and Saul cast the spear, for he thought, "I will pin David to the wall." But David evaded him twice. 12 Saul was afraid of David, because the LORD was with him but had departed from Saul. (RSV)
I SAMUEL 19:9 Then an evil spirit from the LORD came upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing the lyre. 10 And Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the spear; but he eluded Saul, so that he struck the spear into the wall. And David fled, and escaped. (RSV)
The New Testament clearly records several instances where evil spirits possessed and took up residence within human beings. Below are a few of the examples available from the Scriptures.
MARK 7:25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, "Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29 And He said to her, "Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter." 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left. (NASB)
LUKE 9:38 Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, "Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child. 39 "And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth, and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him. 40 So I implored Your disciples to cast it out, but they could not." 41 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." 42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father. (NKJV)
ACTS 19:11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. (NKJV)
One of the activities of evil spirits mentioned in the Bible is that of "familiar" or "divining" spirits. These demons appear to have the ability to rouse the dead from their ordained sleep. They also seem to be able to foretell the future, to some extent. The first mention we see of these spirits in the Scriptures is a warning from God to avoid consorting with them or the mediums that contact them.
LEVITICUS 19:31 "Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (NKJV)
LEVITICUS 20: 6 "And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people." (NKJV)
LEVITICUS 20:27 "A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them." (NKJV)
DEUTERONOMY 18:10 There shall not be found in thee one who purges his son or his daughter with fire, one who uses divination, who deals with omens, and augury, 11 a sorcerer employing incantation, one who has in him a divining spirit, an observer of signs, questioning the dead. (Brenton's LXX)
I SAMUEL 28:7 Then Saul said to his servants, Seek for me a woman who has in her a divining spirit, and I will go to her, and enquire of her: and his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman who has in her a divining spirit at Aendor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he goes, and two men with him, and they come to the woman by night; and he said to her, Divine to me, I pray thee, by the divining spirit within thee, and bring up to me him whom I shall name to thee. 9 And the woman said to him, Behold now, thou knowest what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who had in them divining spirits, and the wizards from the land, and why dost thou spread a snare for my life to destroy it? (Brenton's LXX)
ACTS 16:16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation." 18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment. (NASB)
As all the Scriptures above show, some demons are obviously free to propagate evil in the world. However, there are Scriptures which indicate that a portion of the evil angels are currently restrained in a type of spiritual prison.
JUDE 6 And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great Day. (NRSV)
II PETER 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (NKJV)
I PETER 3:19 . . . He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (NKJV)
Clearly, the Bible teaches that there are at least two different groups of fallen angels; those who can move around freely and those who are currently locked up in "chains of darkness." For detailed information on why these angels are imprisoned, refer to "Genesis 6 - Who Were 'The Sons Of God'?."
In his Gospel, Luke records an incident between Christ and some demons who had possessed a man which gives us an insight into this issue.
LUKE 8:26 Then they sailed to the country of the Gadarenes, which is opposite Galilee. 27 And when He stepped out on the land, there met Him a certain man from the city who had demons for a long time. And he wore no clothes, nor did he live in a house but in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me!" 29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For it had often seized him, and he was kept under guard, bound with chains and shackles; and he broke the bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness. 30 Jesus asked him, saying, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," because many demons had entered him. 31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss [abusson]. 32 Now a herd of many swine was feeding there on the mountain. So they begged Him that He would permit them to enter them. And He permitted them. 33 Then the demons went out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the lake and drowned. (NKJV)
As the Scripture above shows, the demons who inhabited this man were terrified of being banished by Christ into "the Abyss." What is this Abyss? The Jewish New Testament Commentary says of this place mentioned in Luke 8:31:
The bottomless pit, Greek abussos, 'abyss,' found also at Ro 10:7; Rv 9:1-2, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1, 3. The word is used in the Septuagint to translate Hebrew tehom, as in Genesis 1:2, 'Darkness was over the abyss.' At a later period in Judaism 'tehom' referred to the place where renegade spirits were confined" (p. 119).
Regarding the Abyss, The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary says:
In classical Greek ·byssos was an adjective meaning 'bottomless,' applied to the primeval deep of ancient cosmogonies, an ocean surrounding and under the earth. In the LXX it translates Heb. tehÙm meaning the primal waters of Genesis 1:2, once the world of the dead (Ps. 71:20). In later Judaism it means also the interior depths of the earth, and the prison of evil spirits. . . . In Luke 8:31 the demons fear the primal prison deep more than the known depth of the Lake of Galilee. In Revelation the horror of infinite deeps is intensified ("Abyss," p. 8).
In the end-time prophecy recorded by John in the book of Revelation, the Abyss plays a large part in the events leading up to the return of the Messiah. During the period of the "seven trumpets," which mark the pouring out of God's wrath on an unrepentant mankind, the Abyss is opened at the sounding of the fifth trumpet.
REVELATION 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit [abussou]. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit [abussou], and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them. 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle. 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months. (NKJV)
The unlocking of the Abyss releases a horde of depraved demons upon mankind. God uses them as an instrument of His wrath for five months; they are allowed to torment those on the earth who don't have God's seal on their foreheads (Rev. 7:2-8).
In his commentary on Revelation 9:1, 3, Daniel H. Stern writes:
1 The star is not Satan (despite Isaiah 14:12, Lk 10:17), but an angel, who still has the key at 20:1. The Abyss is not Sh'ol (as at Ro 10:7), but a place where demonic beings are imprisoned (vv. 2-11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:2-3). In the Apocrypha, God is called, "You who close and seal the Abyss with your fearful and glorious name" (Prayer of Manasseh 3). . . .
3 Demonic monsters are released which fly like locusts (Exodus 10:12-20; Joel 1:4, 2:4-14) and sting like scorpions (Ezekiel 2:6, Lk 11:12) (Jewish New Testament Commentary, pp. 815, 816).
In Revelation 9:11, a mysterious character is introduced into the story. He is released from the Abyss along with the multitude of demons, and is identified as their king or ruler.
REVELATION 9:11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit [abussou], whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (NKJV)
This Abaddon (which is Hebrew for "destroyer") is the demonic ruler of the Abyss. Abaddon is the highest ranking evil angel now confined in the Abyss. Although not specifically mentioned by these names anywhere else in the Bible, Abaddon plays a major role in the events at the end of this current age. For additional information on the identity of this powerful demon and his activities in the end-time, see my articles "Who Is The 'Destroyer'?" and "The Goat For Azazel."
After the release of the demons from the Abyss, another group of evil spirits is released onto the earth.
REVELATION 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed -- by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. 20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons . . . (NKJV)
In this passage of Scripture, we see that to further punish those who will not obey Him, God authorizes the release of four powerful demons who have been held for just this occasion. Their mission is the destruction of 1/3 of mankind. To accomplish this feat, they are given an army of 200 million evil spirits. Just as Christ and his angelic army later ride white horses (Rev. 19:11, 14), these demons also ride "horses." Fire, smoke, and brimstone issue from the mouths of their horses, and with these plagues possibly a billion and a half people are killed.
Both Abaddon, the evil spirit currently ruling over the Abyss, and the four angels now "bound at the great river Euphrates" appear to be high-ranking and powerful demons. Many biblical passages allude to the fact that both good and evil angels have different levels of authority.
DEUTERONOMY 32:8 When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. 9 And his people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of his inheritance. (Brenton's LXX)
The passage of Scripture shown above is from the third-century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint. When God divided the nations at the tower of Babel, he apportioned rulership of the world among the angels, reserving only Israel for Himself. He gave the angels varying levels of authority over the nations of mankind.
In the Masoretic Text (the official Jewish version) of the Old Testament, verse 8 reads "the children of Israel" instead of "the sons (or angels) of God." However, this statement makes little sense in the context of Moses' statement. A copy of the book of Deuteronomy found among the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran verifies the Septuagint rendering of this verse, indicating that the official Jewish version was altered at a later date.
The book of Daniel gives us further verification of this angelic authority over humanity.
DANIEL 10:5 I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a certain man clothed in linen, whose waist was girded with gold of Uphaz! 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like torches of fire, his arms and feet like burnished bronze in color, and the sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. . . . 12 Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one [or "first"] of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. (NKJV)
The passage above gives us a fascinating inside glimpse into the order and activities of the spiritual realm. The angel that visited Daniel was sent to give him an understanding of what would happen to his people (the Jews) in "the latter days." However, this angel was delayed for 21 days because "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" stood against him. Here we see a three-week spiritual battle described by one of the participants, a holy angel! Indeed, if Michael, who is described in Dan. 12:1 as "the great prince who has charge of your people," had not helped in this fight, Daniel's messenger might not have been able to deliver his information.
DANIEL 10:20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince." (NRSV)
After conveying his message to Daniel, the angel states that he must return once again to do battle with "the prince of Persia." But he says that he will also have to combat "the prince of Greece" after he has finished with "the Prince of Persia." The picture derived from this brief account is one of continual spiritual warfare between the different factions of spiritual beings who have been given dominion over the nations of this world. For additional information on Michael, the spiritual prince over Israel, refer to my article "Christ in the Old Testament."
The apostle Paul takes this idea one step further by showing that mortal Christians are also involved in this spiritual warfare.
EPHESIANS 6:12 For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers [kosmokratoras] of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (RSV)
Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Friberg) defines the word kosmokratoras as "one holding power over the world; plural in the NT for devilish forces, spirit-beings who control parts of the world system, world rulers (EP 6.12)." Paul here clearly states that the fallen angels hold sway over the world! Paul goes on to describe the "whole armor of God" that is needed to defeat these wicked angels in the heavens and spiritual world rulers.
The author of Hebrews indirectly establishes the current rulership of our world by angels in Hebrews 2:5.
HEBREWS 2:5 He [God] did not appoint angels to be rulers of the world to come, and that world is what we are talking about. (Jerusalem Bible)
By saying that God has not appointed angels to rule the coming world, the author implies that the current world is being ruled by angels. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that Satan (called the "king of Tyre" in Scripture) is the supreme ruler and "god" of this present world.
II CORINTHIANS 4:4 In their case the god of this world [Satan] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God. (RSV)
MATTHEW 4:8 Again, the devil took him [Christ] to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; 9 and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." (RSV)
JOHN 14:30 "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world [Satan] is coming. He has no power over me; 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. . . ." (RSV)
JOHN 16:11 "Concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged." (RSV)
JOHN 12:31 "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (NKJV)
One final point. Some believe that God created Satan to be evil and to fulfill a specific purpose here on the earth as the adversary and tempter of mankind. Those who teach this doctrine primarily cite two Scriptures in support of their position: Isaiah 45:7 and John 8:44. First, we'll examine Isaiah 45:7.
ISAIAH 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [ra']: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)
On the surface, this verse appears to give a scriptural basis for the belief that God created Satan with an inherently evil nature. However, when we research this passage, a different picture emerges.
The KJV does imply that God was the creator of evil. However, this same version also renders the Hebrew word ra' (translated "evil" in this passage) as "adversity" and "affliction" elsewhere.
If we look at this verse more closely, we can see what YHVH is saying through Isaiah. God is obviously differentiating between two opposites with the first pair of things He mentions ("light" and "dark"). To stay consistent, the second pair of things God lists ("peace," shalom in Hebrew, and "evil") must also be opposites. Yet we know the opposite of evil is good. However, "adversity," another valid translation of ra', is the opposite of shalom, which can mean "prosperity," "safety," and "contentment" in addition to "peace."
Many modern versions translate this phrase more accurately than the KJV, as the following examples show: "I make peace and create calamity" (NKJV); "I make weal and create woe" (RSV); "I make good fortune and create calamity" (Jerusalem Bible); "author alike of prosperity and trouble" (NEB). Understood correctly, one cannot use this verse to "prove" that God created Satan to be the evil enemy of mankind.
Now let's examine John 8:44 to see if it substantiates this doctrine.
JOHN 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." (NKJV)
The key point here is the meaning of "the beginning." There are many possible beginnings. If "the beginning" refers to the origination of Satan's existence, then it is evident that God must have created him evil. But if "the beginning" is not referring to Satan's creation, but another "beginning," then God could have made him perfect initially, just as Ezekiel 28:15 tells us. I believe "the beginning" Christ mentions here is the beginning of humanity, when God inaugurated His divine plan for mankind at creation week (Gen. 1:3-2:3). The Scriptures show an evil Satan appearing shortly after creation in the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3).
Simple logic and belief in God's perfect nature should show us that Satan was not originally created evil. If God had created Satan to be the evil tempter and adversary of mankind, then He could not equitably punish Satan in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10) for the things he has done to humanity. To do so would be patently unfair, and God's Word tells us that He is just and fair (Psa. 7:11; Isa. 45:21; Rev. 15:3). So, contrary to this humanly-devised doctrine, we can be assured that the Scriptures do not teach that Satan was originally created by God as the evil adversary of humanity.
CONCLUSION
The Bible gives quite a bit of information about Satan and the fallen angels. To understand the truth, all that information has to be assimilated. Satan is the currently the "god" of this world; as such, he is the highest ranking evil spirit. Other demons under Satan have authority over the various nations of the earth. Spiritual conflict is unseen but ongoing, with the loyal angels sometimes battling the fallen angels to fulfill God's will. The demons will be unleashed on the earth during the end of this age, when God's wrath is vented on a sinning and unrepentant humanity. In the end, however, Christ will return and subjugate all who won't submit to God's authority, including Satan and the fallen host. Their punishment will be age-lasting destruction and refinement within the lake of fire.
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so indeed max, I am partly right and so are you.
Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 5:32 am: | |
I was looking at the rest of this guy's page, it gets into interpretation of Revelations, which is always highly controversial, and very confusing for all parties, I believe.
Chyna |
Violet
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 2:37 pm: | |
Chyna, if I find something overwhelming on a post I copy it and print it out. Then I can disect it down and make notes ect. Some things cannot be supported in a few words.
But you are right we must always be on guard as to the motive of our actions. |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 2:40 pm: | |
Hello Chyna,
I went to that web address that you put up in your post to Max.
Now I'm really confused because that site states that "azazel" is satan. And I have a hard time with that. Have you read it and if so, what are your thoughts to that? I NEED to know.
Also, on that same site it states that Michael the Archangel is Christ.
Looking forward to any and all responses of anyone who has anything to say about this site that Chyna put up and also what we thought we were believing. Or did believe at one time but gave them up.
What is the Truth??????
God Bless,
your sister in Christ Jesus and I'm thoroughly confused and need some insight quickly. |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 7:23 pm: | |
dear denise, I did not endorse the rest of the site, but I thought the parts about the origin of Satan were accurate
Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 7:28 pm: | |
Denise, last night I had started to read things about um Apollyon, but I soon grew confused and had already ascertained from his analysis of hell (he said it wasn't eternal) that I could not totally trust everything this particular author had written, but I did think his research on Satan is quite good.
Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 7:31 pm: | |
oh dear, but now as I scan back, I do see that the author did say Jesus was Michael, darn it. that's what happens when you post at 4:30 AM |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 8:54 pm: | |
Dear Chyna,
Not to worry, it happens. Especially at hours like 430am!
I'm one to always check the sources and what they have to say on all things. That gives me a better idea, of how they believe certain other doctrines they hold to be true, as they do and why.
I hope that sentence made sense..<chuckling over here>. I am not a grammatarian in case you haven't noticed.
In other easier words, I read everything they teach to give me a better perspective of where they are coming from in their theology.
But, it was an interesting read even if it did confuse me. Seemed very logical in some parts infact.
I guess that why we must make sure to watch out for those subtle little errors that can be easily bypassed. Because those subtle seemingly little errors grow into huge mountains of error.
But as always, I thank you as this did give me a chance to check out lots of sites today and all the many different doctrines that are currently being taught. Amazing just how many there are. And even more amazing are just how many of them are teaching error.
We really need to read all things of one author and compare them to Scripture. If they don't match in one area, then ten to one, there are many other areas they won't adhere to Scripture on.
God Bless you always Chyna,
your sister in our Lord Jesus Christ, DtB
P.S. Please keep the posts coming as I find that your posts are very beneficial for me and I thank the Lord for you. :)) |
Chyna
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 1:27 am: | |
thanks Denise :), I always love yours too, you crack me up.
Chyna |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 1:47 am: | |
Dear Chyna,
Laughter is one of the best medicines...
By the way, what did you do, read my post of drinking the Holy Water? :))
I should tell the one of kicking a priest out of my house, not knowing he was a priest.
However he belonged to that same family that thought I was a heretic for drinking the Holy Water. So they really really do NOT like me.
And I didn't kick him out until about 2 years after that funeral incident.
Little did I know.
Oh boy, life is good even if it has ups and downs.
God Bless you Chyna,
DtB |
Chyna
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 2:08 am: | |
recently I gave my mother a grocery list of things I wanted to make a certain pasta sauce. on it I had:
4 red peppers
1 can of italian tomatoes
1 carton of heavy cream
1 box of penne
vodka
because what I wanted to make was vodka tomato cream sauce with penne.
well my mother comes home with the canned tomatoes, exclaiming about how hard it was to read my writing ... and she bought the cream, and the peppers, but not the penne because 'we have too much pasta already' and certainly no vodka! :), i attest this to thinking that drinking is sinful. heaven forbid that my mother would pick up some liquor at the grocery store.
I think my ex thought he was so non Traditional SDA because he liked to go out dancing and drank alcohol. But when he was applying to LLUSM he filled out the application "No, I do not drink alcohol/have not drank alcohol this year" or something along those lines.
Chyna |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 2:23 am: | |
Chyna,
Yeah, that all sounds familiar with those I know. It's something else sometimes to keep the peace when others are lying in front of you or if they decide for you what you should or should not eat or drink.
Currently, I'm fighting this very thing. Not the drinking part as I'm a recovered alcoholic of almost 5 years now. But the food part and lying people.
Well, I said in a post just before this one that I was going to bed, so off I go.
Good dreams everyone and God Bless you with sweet dreams!
Denise, your sister in Jesus Christ, our King of Kings! |
Valm
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 9:02 am: | |
Denise,
You really need to write all of these stories down. Somehow I can see you throwing the priest out of the house!
Chyna,
Your ex was straddling the fence. And probably still is. His heart is not in Adventism. But the ties to Adventism are all SO STRONG for him; his family, social ties, deep rooted cultural upbringing ect. All of the traditions he knows as a child would be forever gone if he left. In addition the hold of GUILT is incomprehensible to those outside of the belief system. Even when sowing wild oats the young people of SDA figure they have time to come back and there is no other option to them (in their minds) to seek a spiritual life elsewhere.
Once again, good luck figuring it all out. I grew up in it and am just beginning to understand the deep rooted psychological ramifications of staying in and leaving the SDA belief system.
Valerie |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 3:12 pm: | |
Dear Valerie,
You know me quite well to say this:
>>Denise,
You really need to write all of these stories down. Somehow I can see you throwing the priest out of the house!<<
That night was one I shall not forget either. Not only did I add fuel to the already going fire of his family but my own roommate was his niece.
What a commotion that caused!
Here it was 11pm at night. He is a guest, along with his parish friend, to stay at my home for a few days to visit his niece (my roommate).
But at 11pm, the priest (no priestly garb on) got up and stood over me as I sat in my recliner drinking my beer, as was my custom then, in my own livingroom.
He was standing over me and pointing his finger in my face telling me how that purgatory is awaiting me! He kept this up until I finally blew.
I mean, here I am being a gracious hostess to two strangers and I'm being condemned in my own home (that's when I owned homes).
I stood up and opened my front door and told him to not let the door hit him in the ass (not profanity, it's in the Bible) on his way out.
So he and his compadre packed up what was unpacked and left in a huff.
My roommate had a fit and wouldn't speak to me for several weeks! The family retaliated and I was left standing on my own.
That was the short version. The long version would have far too many profane words in it along with a few other details that need not be printed.
That's the end of that story for now.
Blessings always,
your sister in Christ our King,
Denise |
Chyna
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 6:49 pm: | |
dear denise,
I have found after college that the word "ass" has worked its way into my vocabulary in a very versatile way :). :). :). although, in the bible doesn't it always refer to donkeys?
Chyna |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 9:19 pm: | |
Hello Chyna,
You are right, it can be a handy word although it can create a stir amongst the brethren.
In the Bible, it is used to refer to a donkey.
However, there are many words in the Bible that are not accepted today as they would be considered profanity. I happen to disagree.
Just this morning, I found myself cursing up a storm over gossip about me. I used the word 'ass' and did that ever go over like a bomb!
Of course, later I found myself apologizing to the person I said that to.
I don't claim to be a Mother Theresa, just a human being who is changing, just not overnight.
Two years ago, I spoke street language and that consists of more than the one word I used today, trust me on this. :)
I had a really foul mouth! But it has gotten much much better and for that I'm grateful.
God Bless you Chyna,
Denise |
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