| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, This is an exert from New Covenant Christians which I found helpful in understanding Matt 5:18: "This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings-- external regulations applying until the time of the new order." (Hebrews 9:9-10) Notice the word "until." The ceremonies and rituals of the old covenant were illustrations of what was coming in Jesus and they applied until the time of the new order. We have seen that word "until" before in our covenant studies. "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." (Galatians 3:19) "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18) There was a definite "until" feature in the old covenant. Look at these texts side by side: "... the law... was added... until the Seed...had come." (Galatians 3:19) "... not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18) "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves. ...external regulations applying until the time of the new order." (Hebrews 10:1; 9:10) Do you see a pattern here? The law applied until Christ came and fulfilled it and established a new covenant. After that it was "set aside." (Not the moral principles, of course - but the law as a covenant and means of righteousness was "set aside"). The substance had come; there was no need for the shadow. Notice how the writer to the Hebrews uses this phrase "set aside" to describe the old covenant now that the new has come: "The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God... Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:18-19,22) "Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second." (Hebrews 10:9) I hope this is helpful. Valerie | ||
| Kelly |
I think that I have found a concept that I can grasped on to. You guys let me know if this isn't quite on target. The sinful condition of man = a major car accident in which you are critically wounded. The EMT = the laws of the 10 commandments. (The application of these "emergency" techniques is the only thing keeping you alive UNTIL you can receive further treatment, which will not be available right away) The Hospital = Cross, the point where your salvation takes place. The Physician = Jesus Christ. The Physician applies all the treatments necessary for a full recovery. All we have to do is follow His instructions and remain under His care. After we have received the treatment from the Physician we longer need the treatment that was offered by the EMT. The EMT's treatment was valuable at the time it was administered but no longer has a purpose after we have received the Physicians care. Is this a correct analogy? | ||
| Cindy |
Kelly, I like that analogy! We were under the emergency EMT's care... UNTIL the GREAT PHYSICIAN came... And at the Cross (the Hospital) we are HEALED! HE ALONE has the magic potion (His Blood!) we drink that gives us instantaneous eternal LIFE! By staying close to Him we learn more and more how to avoid these dangerous accidents...plus that magic potion is always at our disposal! He encourages and comforts and guides us always! We drink from His gift daily, growing stronger in HIS GRACE ALONE... Who would ever want to stray from this wonderful Physician? Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Lori |
Kelly, that's a great analogy. The Holy Spirit is working with you, providing you understanding of these Biblical concepts!!! It's going to take time to break down some of the false doctrines that you have been raised on. Just like when our bodies become ill--sometimes all we need is the proper food to heal us. But it takes time--we have to eat the food and our body has to metabolize it--then the process of anabolism (building up of healthy tissue) begins to take place and at the same time the process of catabolism (breaking down and disposal of unheatlhy tissues) also takes place. But these do not produce instantaneous results, it takes time and continually "eating" the proper kinds of foods. These things can be related to your spiritual life as well. The healthy doctrines from the scripture will build up healthy "tissue" and at the same time they will rid you of the unhealthy "tissue" that you have been hanging onto. Keep studying---and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Lori | ||
| Colleentinker |
Kelly, I like your EMT-Hospital-Christ's Blood analogy! That's really good. (Richard suggested that the law might even be the ambulance because it takes you to the hospital/Christ!) One thing I like about it is that it bears up when you look at people who are not saved. People who have not accepted Jesus are still "under the curse of the law", and the EMT/ambulance analogy still works! Keep studying and praying--and I'm praying for you, too! Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly, That was a great analogy! If you came up with that so easily, I'm looking forward to many more! IBC (Insured By Christ the Physician;-) | ||
| Valm |
Amen Sister Kelly!!!!! Valerie | ||
| Chyna |
hurray kelly! talk about spiritual understanding. another way to show that the EMT's while good are inferior to the physican that heals. in fact the Bible says similar about the Law. Paul reveals to us that the Law was given so that sin would increase (actually). similar to how an EMT could describe to you what was wrong with you but couldn't help you get better (ok well it's not exact). the Law was given to us to show us how short we fell of God's perfection/holiness cheers, Chyna | ||
| Kelly |
Thank you all for your affirmation! On drawing from something that one of you mentioned on another thread I feel the Holy Spirit has to be the life support, the oxygen, that was given to sustain life when you were unable on your own to do this. What I understood the person to be saying was: Before we accept Christ, but at the point where we have received the gospel message, we are spiritually dead. At this point of spiritual non-existence we have no capacity to comprehend anything that is spiritual, even in a simplistic form. Therefore, the Holy Spirit at the moment we hear the gospel message provides for us "Spiritual CPR" (he does FOR us what we can not do for ourselves). We can not perform this function so the Holy Spirit overrides our bodily malfunction and performs the function for us. "For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that (this faith) not from yourselves, it is a gift from God" I had never noticed that faith was the thing that this verse was saying was not of ourselves" Even our faith (the life saving breathe-pneuma) doesn't come from us. This is how I feel that the "oxygen" = the Holy Spirit. When we are physically dead we can not hear or understand those physically alive even if they are shouting at us SO, if we are spiritually dead, we can not hear and understand something that is spiritually alive, the Holy Spirit has to perform that function for us. He gives us an opportunity to accept it or reject it. If we accept it, His breathe makes us spiritually alive and if we reject it we remain spiritually dead. Our decision at that point determines if we ever make it to the hospital!! (I went back to look, it was Lori that made the comment about our faith being a gift. Thanks, Lori!) This analogy has really helped me a lot to understand how the written law and the Spirit law are indeed different. | ||
| Kelly |
I'm still confused about the term "and the violent take it by force" in Matt 11. Max do you have time to elaborate? | ||
| Kelly |
And, Richard, I couldn't understand how the ambulance could be the law. But then it occurred to me that the ambulance is the Ark of the Covenant-it transported the Law everywhere it went! Can you guys think of anymore analogies related to this? This is so helpful, to relate spiritual things to life issues that we understand. (that's why Christ spoke in parables, I just wish they were more relevant to today)! | ||
| Billthompson |
This is a great discussion and has caused me to lurk no longer but join in. Great thoughts Kelly and others. Here is another similar, medical analogy. My personal view is that the law is more like a diagnostic tool or proceedure, ie. x-ray, blood test, EKG, etc. These excellant medical tools reveal our physical weeknesses though they have no therapeutic effect whatsoever. They tell you you are sick but do nothing to heal you. They convince you of your need for a physician. Likewise the law diagnoses our sinfulness and our need for the Saviour. If one only utilized the diagnostic areas of medical care and those tests revealed a fatal disease, but no therapy was ever sought or administered the result would be physical death. Having an x-ray every 7 days, for example, without ever seeing a surgeon who could totally remove the tumor revealed by the x-ray, this would having no life saving effect. It would only monitor the progress of the thing that is killing you slowly. Depression and dispare could result if you somehow were taught to believe that the diagnostic proceedure had healing power but your own experince showed that the weekly x-ray only revealed the disease was still there, getting worse and had the potential of killing you. Do you see the spiritual parallel? If we look to the law (only a diagnostic device) for life (eternal) but never receive the cure for the condition the law reveals, the result will be spiritual death. Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
I'm on a role now, analogies always break down at some level, especially analogies to God since nothing on earth truly compares in all the perfection and fulness of God Himself. However, Christ often used parables to teach great spiritual lessons to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Here is a parable that just came to mind. Suppose a diagnostic test such as an x-ray reveals a life threatening tumor. You become depressed and fearful. Then someone gives you an article about a life saving cure. It shows a picture of how the surgical cure is able to totally remove this type of tumor. This picture of how the surgery works brings great comfort, rest and peace of mind. Did the picture cure you? No. You find that if you look at the picture once every 7 days, great comfort, rest and peace of mind result. You almost feel well again and begin to rely heavily on this picture once a week. Again the picture has not cured you but only shown you a picture of the cure. I feel the sabbath is a "picture" or "shadow" of the Gospel message itself. In the Old testament, one who failed to observe the sabbath was punished by death. In the New Covenant we learn that failing to rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross results in death. Back to the medical analogy. If the person with a tumor only looks at a picture of the cure once a week, even though it is a comfort to see this picture, the picture cures nothing. Only when the reality (cure) which that picture represents (the surgical proceedure itself) becomes applied to that dying person, only then is that person "saved". "Yes, but the physician himself gave me this picture of the cure. I must continue to look at it once every 7 days," the person argues. You have had the surgery now. The tumor is gone. Death is no longer on your doorstep. "You, don't understand! The Physician himself gave me the picture of the cure. I felt such hope and comfort while viewing that picture. I could never give it up. I won't!" Is the picture doing her any harm now that the surgery has been peroformed? No, not since she sought and received the cure. If she is telling other people with tumors that the picture played a major role in her CURE and leading them to trust in the picture rather than the surgery, this is a problem. The picture was of some limited benefit (not life saving but a comfort) to her before the surgery but has little significance now that the tumor has been removed by the physician. If she had relied on the picture to cure her it would have resulted in her death if this caused her to avoid the reality the picture portrayed. Bill Thompson | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Bill Thompson, Hi! Welcome back here! :-)) Stay out of those lurking shadows and keep on posting...:-)) That was a great analogy with "the Picture" and the whole "seventh-day sabbath issue"! It really says a lot on how the REALITY of Our True Sabbath REST--CHRIST ALONE--supercedes a "shadow" (or picture..). Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Hi, Kelly, ėGrace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.î 1 Timothy 1:2 NIV. ^^I'm still confused about the term "and the violent take it by force" in Matt 11. Max, do you have time to elaborate?^^ The King James Version -- which you're using, aren't you?-- translates it this way: KJV Matthew 11:12-13 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven SUFFERETH VIOLENCE, and THE VIOLENT TAKE IT BY FORCE. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." But the New International Version translates it this way: NIV Matthew 11:12 ėFrom the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been FORCEFULLY ADVANCING, and FORCEFUL MEN LAY HOLD OF IT.î The NIV Study Bible text note to ėforcefully advancingî says this: ėThe Greek here can be taken in either an active (NIV) or a passive sense. In this context its passive meaning would be, ësuffering violent attacks.í The term ëforceful men,í then, would be understood in a negative sense, ëviolent people.í The verse would then emphasize the ongoing persecution of the people of the kingdom.î So, you see there are two possible interpre- tations that the 42 NIV biblical exegetical scholars find in this text. The correct interpretation depends on how the ambiguous Greek verb bailetai is translated into English -- as active or as passive). 1. The ėPERSECUTED CHURCHî interpre- tation (Greek passive): "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has been SUFFERING VIOLENT ATTACKS, and VIOLENT (Satan-motivated) people take it by force." 2. The ėPOWERFUL CHURCHî interpretation (Greek active): "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has been FORCEFULLY ADVANCING and FORCEFUL (God-motivated) people lay hold of it. The NIV scholars have chosen to interpret the Greek as ACTIVE. And therefore the NIV version is the POWERFUL CHURCH translation: NIV Matthew 11:12 ėFrom the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.î The take-home message for us formers, I believe, is this: John the Baptist is unique in all Scripture: He fills the role of BOTH an Old Testament prophet AND New Testament prophet. During the time between Adam and John the Baptist there was NO kingdom of heaven on earth to advance or to not advance. Since Jesus Christ IS God, he brought the kingdom of heaven WITH him when he came as a baby on the First Christmas. Therefore, AFTER John the Baptist, the kingdom of heaven has ALREADY been on earth, and it remains here to this day. Jesus Christ left it here when he ascended into heaven, since the Holy Spirit came when Jesus left. (Jesus said, "The Comforter cannot come unless I go away.") This is hard for formers to accept the kingdom of heaven as being here now. Because we have been conditioned by our SDA past to think of the kingdom of heaven as only beginnign with the Second Coming. DEAR FORMERS: THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BEGAN WITH THE FIRST COMING OF CHRIST. IT DOES NOT BEGIN WITH THE SECOND. GOOD GOSPEL NEWS: WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT! The SDA position is unscriptural to say the least. Like eternal life, the kingdom of heaven BEGINS now. My pastor, Gary Inrig, calls it ėthe now and future kingdom of heaven.î The "NOW" KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: Some- times the New Testament speaks of it in the present (as in nearly all of the 50+ parables in Matthew beginning with the words, ėThe kingdom of heaven is like....î Also Luke 17:20-21 which states categorically, ėThe kingdom of God is within [among] you.î The "FUTURE" KINGDOM OF HEAVEN: Other times the NT speaks of it as still future. (I don't need to go into all the "proof texts," since, if you're a former, you've had them drilled into your head already.) Bottom line: Whether mentioned by Scripture as in the present or in the future, there is only ONE kingdom of heaven, not TWO. Does this help, Kelly? Blessings only, Max of the Cross | ||
| Lori |
Kelly, I wanted to share something that I found very helpful in overcoming the validity of the 10 commandments today. In Romans 5:20 it says, "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more." In our language this doesn't really appear to say too much, but when you go back to the Greek language and the Greek drama that the wording comes from, it means a lot! The Greek word <par eis erchomai> which is simply translated -was added- in NIV comes from Greek drama. <par eis erchomai> was the term for an actor who was playing a god-this minor actor was lowered down by a machine for his short part in the play and then raised back up and removed. Occasionally, the machine would get stuck and the actor playing the god would be boo-ed and pelleted with food by the audience. Paul is using this idiom from Greek drama to describe the Law. The law was <par eis erchomai> an minor actor in a play which had a brief part and then was removed. The law was replace by grace. Grace was the major actor in the play!!! Hope this helps Lori | ||
| Chyna |
dear Lori, thank you so much for sharing that! makes me all the more want to study Greek! Chyna | ||
| Valm |
Lori, That is really really interesting. Is that from a book that non theologians like me could read? I would really like to know more about that kind of stuff in the Bible. It is not only the Greek that is so interesting, it is the use of the culture, sayings, customs, ect of the time. That is something you wouldn't pick up with just knowing Greek. Thanks, Valerie | ||
| Violet |
Lori, share where you are getting this information from. I want to read it!!!!! Violet | ||
| Violet |
Max, I have a question for you. I was reading a post you wrote on judgement. Judging others and you referred to Acts 15:19 in that area of the chapter. As I was reading it I read that they wanted to make it easy for the Genitles to move into Christianity, they were putting Moses' laws away and cutting it down to the bare bones. This is one of my pet peaves with Adventist. They want you to complete this laundry list of requirements before you are baptized. I have a theory of elitism (I have done all of these things so you must too in able to join my club) is why they do that, because I can find no biblical requirement for these requirements. Do you have any thoughts on this or am I just being cranky? |
