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Chyna
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone,

I wanted to see if this would strike up any interest, but I during my "discussions" read arguments with my Adventist boyfriend, he would explain things this way:

"There are backwards churchs in Adventism, but most of Adventism doesn't teach X Y or Z"

He would refer to this statement when I asked why
FORMER Adventists exist in the first place. I still don't think he understands Salvation. In fact I can't understand why anyone that does understand Salvation can stand to be in an Adventist church! Answers, anyone?

Also when I told him about IJ and the amounts of fear it has caused, he again attributed to "backwards churches." This is his way of dispersing the responsibility of false doctrine, or his justification that what he believes in isn't false or a cause to get out of Adventism.

and the other part was:

"North American Adventist Churches aren't like that, we don't listen to the GC, it's run by people from other nations and they aren't as educated" blah blah blah.

this was all during the period of time when I was trying to understand what Adventism meant to him.

but all the things he tried to attribute to the GC or to other "backwards" churches were exactly what he believed! National Sunday Law, Jesus is Michael, Health Msg etc. etc. He might have felt pushed to defend his Adventist beliefs like Bill Thompson, but when I urged him to clarify exactly what he believed he finally said that he thought breaking Sabbath is a sin, and that Ellen G. White is a prophet. (so much for those beliefs belonging to only the 'backwards' churches)

What do formers think of this?

Chyna
Valm
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my experience the SDA churches in America hold much more rigidly to all of the teachings you have mentioned here as opposed to churches abroad. The backwards churches then are the mainstream of Adventism given this is where Adventism's roots are and also financial base is.

On the most part, if you polled Adventists, I do not think a good portion of them would know the history of 1844 or what the investigative judgement belief is. I could be wrong.

I think if they took a real hard look at this doctrine, most of them would continue to live in adventism and find a way to rationalize around this doctrine. WHY? I think because the pain of seperation from loved ones and life as they know it would be too much for them to change. In addition, the conviction that this doctrine is not scriptural is not enough to make such an ALL ENCOMPASING change.

Only the GOSPEL MESSAGE would compell a person to leave Adventism given the psychological ramifications of leaving. And the challenge is the veil that is before these dear people must be lifted. Only God can do that, in his own time (which I still do not understand)..
Max
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna,

Did you ever consider the possibility that your
XBF doesn't really care about his salvation --
not in the way you mean it?

Maybe he has the SDA mindset -- like flat-
earthers have an "earth is flat" mindset -- and
trying to talk him out of it is like trying to talk a
flat-earther out of his "earth is flat" mindset.

It's the "I'll see it when I believe it" sort of thing:
Not "seeing is believing," but "believing is
seeing."

To be blunt, the OFTA mindset has nothing
whatsoever to do with real salvation, except
maybe to obscure and hide it.

Maybe he's still in OFTAism for a different
kind of salvation: the $$$$$$-life ahead!

Physicians sit atop the OFTA heap -- far above
mere ministers and conference presidents. In
OFTAdom, LLU's MD degree is the ticket to
OFTA Heaven Now (HN).

HN being earning upwards of $300,000/year
and enjoying a built-in OFTA clientele. Well-
financed GCOs (General Conference
Operatives) will happily bestow an M.D. a
MedStu in return for hanging out a shingle in
the small town of Rockadoo, Nebraska, say, in
the middle of a dark county.

What's the payoff for OFTAs? Many goodies.
For example:

1. The tithe on $300,000/year is $30,000/year.
Not bad for starters. Many OFTA MDs earn
$500,000/year translating into $50,000/year
tithe, not to mention -- slurp! -- offerings!

2. The MD practicing there will, of course,
employ OFTA nurses, OFTA office folk, use
an OFTA janitorial service, etc., people who
will in turn pay tithe on their comparatively
meager incomes.

3. Thus a new church can be started in
Rockadoo. Or, if there is already a flagging
church there, it can be resuscitated. And the
the OFTA children born there can become
fodder for OFTA church schools, academies,
colleges, and -- yesindeedy! -- LLUSM.

So you see, for many MedStus who are
grapejuice-dined and vegi-dined by GCOs,
salvation DOES come now. Just not the kind
of salvation you mean, Chyna.

Not having been born into OFTAdom and not
having lived in it for forty years, you may not be
aware of this nasty little secret: GCOs frown
on MedStus ending up with a wife who doesn't
convert to "the mindset."

I'm NOT saying that this is the case with you
and your XBF. How could I possibly know? But
I AM saying that it is more commonly the case
in OFTAdom than not.

After all, why wait for cherry pie in the sky when
you die by and by when you can have it all --
drool! -- n-n-n-n-now?

Hey, China, the Sovereign has always been in
charge! You've been in better Hands all along.

And even more blessings to you, precious
one,

MC
Violet
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How do you start to talk to your friends about your new found salvation. Do you just start thowing out little bits of information and see if they bite on it? (OFTA)
Cindy
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie, I think you had it right in saying that the enormous changes involved in questioning doctrines is a big factor in staying put...

I think the Sabbath issue alone is enough to keep most people in...even though they disagree with much of EGW's views and even can't explain the tortuous theology of the 1844 message.

Only the Holy Spirit's persistent work on one's heart--to focus one's ASSURANCE on the Cross of Christ alone--can give one the COURAGE to live in the freedom of the Gospel! Banishing the FEAR that accompanies any thought of leaving the so-called remnant!

Grace always,
Cindy
Richardhardison
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2001 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy, There is another face to the fear of leaving the "remnant," and that is the fear of facing the vacuum which results from leaving something you've dedicated as portion of your life to. It's almost like a death in the family, even leaving aside doctrinal issues.

I've observed a certain conflict in the lives of many SDA people. I studied the Book of Romans with the Marietta SDA and they have the same understanding of the book any good Wesleyan has. They also teach the IJ. I've never been able to reconcile this intellectually (I don't think it's even possible). They even hold a balanced view of Romans and James combined, yet stress commandment keeping. They sense the question marks in me, but have no idea how to deal with them any more than I do.

Richard L. Hardison
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 2:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear max,

you stun me. both you and colleen with your insights about Adventist living are so alien to me that when you disclose them, I can do nothing but reel. no wonder why my ex was such a 'hot' commodity, no wonder they could afford the big house with the river in the backyard, the boat, everything. when he talked about being "high profile" in the church ...

his family was planning on buying an apartment complex in Loma Linda. my family has nowhere near that buying power. not only *he* is in medical school. his younger brother is applying also, and probably one of his younger sisters also.

I wonder what would happen to the Adventist church without all the financial backing...

Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry, but what is OFTA?
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 2:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear violet,

i have the similar thing with nonChristian friends, or friends that were Christian, but aren't anymore. most of the time I'm so excited about a message or something I've read in the bible I'll tell them, just like how I would tell anyone I was excited about a new shopping purchase. not only does it make it easy for you because you're sharing with them something that is enrichening your life, but also because it shows them how integral it is to your life, that it's not some sectioned off part of your life you only exposed to other Christians.

and even when i talk about breaking up with my ex, or things not going so well about medical school, God is in the middle of those trials, those difficult things. so if you have close girlfriends you're used to confiding in, share how relieved you are to know you're secure in God, and in your salvation.

God bless! Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 2:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

or maybe you can highlight specific things that have changed in your life since leaving Adventism. you don't have to say, "things are diff b/c I left Adventism" you say, "my life is different this way." and then they'll ask you :) why.
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 2:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear max,

ironically, i was there for my ex when he didn't know whether he was going to get into LLUSM from when he took his MCAT to when he got his acceptance, I celebrated with him on New Year's. I even drove him to LL to look at apartments and clear all of his paperwork/financial aid.

when we started discussing our future. he was like, "I'm going to become an Adventist missionary" how can we get married? I obviously had all sort of ethical issues with spreading obviously false doctrine as a Adventist missionary.

to be honest, it did sound like a good deal. In exchange for becoming an Adventist Medical Missionary he gets all of his medical school loans paid off if he works for 6 years. plus he gets income from working as a medical missionary. and soon after returning to the US, he can buy a boat and go waterskiing.

(bitterness about the waterskiing)

Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 2:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Richard,

Their ability to have understanding of Romans and still to accept IJ and foster commandment keeping is called Cognitive Dissonance. I think the psych experiment to do with that was that they made someone go through something negative, but when they came out of it, since they paid $20 for it, they said it was great, or fine. so it was consistent with their personality. i'm sorry I took psych 11, 3 years ago :). but it's that kind of tension in their lives that makes being an Adventist so awful, as someone else referred to on this site "lie back and take it" mentality.

also cults are known for cognitive dissonance. while we all on the other side can see how irrational it is to believe in EGW, they can't. questions are really discouraged.

i talked to a missionary lady who was one of the very first missionaries to southern Thailand from Australia. i asked her why there were not more ministries to Adventists and Mormons, Christian Scientists. she said that simply it felt too overwhelming to know where to begin. cultists are the most dogmatic people I've ever met!

i think people within the Adventist church feel the same way. i have been reading posts from former Adventist pastors reading the clear message of grace in the Bible but having to stifle it because of the rigidity of Adventism. so I think that Adventists feel like it is too overwhelming to go against the system.

the system is such a trap. as an Adventist in a strong Adventist community EVERYTHING about you depends on them! your income, your education, your children's education, your future or current spouse, your parents, your teachers, elders you respect. and it's all threatened to be pulled away from you if you dare to question. if you dare to think that there is more truth outside the church than inside it's walls.

it's so terrible, it makes me so angry, but that is why it is so imperative to leave Adventism.

if you left a good Christian church and declared yourself apostate. people would still continue to support you and pray for you and encourage you no matter what. they would not! shun you like the Adventist church.

so much is wrong with it. and yet, it is the fiercest call of all, to not depend on any of those things: spouses, children, education, livelihoods, teachers, parents etc., but to depend on God. and He is more than able.

in Him, Chyna
Richardhardison
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 5:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't observed the rejection of an SDA "apostate" as you have. The group I know has tried to reach out and get the people who have left to return. I have no doubt what you describe happens given what I have seen in human nature.

I have seen it in Mormonism, no matter what group you deal with (I've seen more Mormons than I care to see as I used to be an adult leader in Boy Scouts and had two in my Woodbadge patrol). Mormons turn on their apostates like pidgeons do on one their number who is hurt.

Most of the trouble with reaching SDA has to do with a lack of understanding of their doctrines and how they relate to scripture. The IJ is intimately related to their eschatology. Eschatology itself has little or no relationship to soteriology, or the doctrines of salvation. Because they couldn't throw their eschtological system aside, they couldn't throw away the IJ, even though they could accept salvation through grace by faith. I risked my friendship with them by being blunt and showing how the two simply didn't add up and they thought long and hard about it, but it's hard to overcome a lifetime of indoctrination.

The problem they exemplify is one which has haunted all of Christianity, and that is how the law relates to the life of the Christian. One camp holds not at all, which leads to antinomianism and such groups tend to be lax in holiness, you'll see this in Paul's letters to the Corinthians. The other extreme is shown by some SDA groups and was dealt with in Galatians.

The balance is seen in James which seems to have been written for those who see no relationship between how we act and saving faith. James asks the question in 2:14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" One can not be said to have saving faith if that faith produces no action in response. In short, the Christian will keep the law, not because it saves him, but because it is natural thing for him to do so.

In current times one sees this battle between John MacArthur and his detractors. MacArthur, who holds a moderate form of Calvinism, has a Wesleyan understanding of James. Others of the reform camp accuse him of not having an understanding of what it means to be "in Christ." MacArthur, who holds a Doctorate from Talbot (Biola's Seminary) shows much of the same cognitive dissonance over James as SDA types have over the IJ.

Richard L. Hardison
Violet
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 9:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chyna, my arn't you the night owl!. I was up at 5 am this morning, the new puppy wanted to play. And my husband had a meeting this morning so I got to play with HIS new puppy. Anyway I started reading the nearst book on the table, as the one I was reading was in the bedroom. Anyway i started reading Sabbath in Crisis. I have gotten as far as chapter 5. So far everything makes sense. I am truly starting to understand the Sabbath rest. I use to laugh at the "Sabbath rest" at our church. It was spent preparing potluck food and cleaning up afterwards. Lucky if I got to go to Sabbath school. My best friend never did. Because we served breakfast and lunch. She spent all her time in and out of the refrigerator.

I still hold that if OFTA(our friends the Advenitst) did not have anything to hide they would be open to discussion and not shut you down or shut you out. Only when you fear being wrong and are unsure of yourself do you not speak up and bring your side to the table. OR they could be like I was Adventism is all I ever knew and was too ignorant to go out and explore other sides by myself. I thought I knew it, after all I had been in SDA schools all growing up and I knew the Bible stories as well if not better than anyone I knew. What did I have to learn. That mind set is just as dangerous.
Billthompson
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This problem of reaching people who are heavily indoctrinated by false teachings (SDA, Mormon, JW, etc.) is indeed quite difficult. I have been frustrated by this myself.

The ONLY way I have ever made ANY progress with the people I have dealt with, primarily SDAs, is to not allow them to control the subjects we discuss. They usually want to debate the sabbath or a few other SDA distinctives. As they begin this sort of discussion I politely say, "Since I don't know you personally, let's start with the most basic subject of Christianity, salvation, and then we can go on to these more difficult areas after we are in agreement about salvation."

I usally then go on ask my three questions which I have repeated here many times. Until they address these three areas I very politely refuse to go on to ANY other area saying, "being right about the sabbath but wrong about salvation is of no value whatsoever."

By sticking to the subject of salvation and refusing to go anywhere else until that is properly addressed, they will take one of two directions for the same underlying reason. The first direction, they cut off any further dicussion with me, the second, they continue to discuss salvation and this is often productive. The underlying thing they both have in common is they are not that confident with this subject and this is THE subject they need to consider.

I have seen several people (12 SDAs at last count) come to a saving relationship with Christ as a result of this approach. I never saw anyone come to Christ when I was debating the sabbath with them (yes, I took that approach for awhile).

What is interesting is that once they truly come to Christ and trust in Him alone for their salvation, they no longer desire to argue with me about the sabbath. They may still be struggling with whether that will continue to be part of their Christian life, but it is no longer the most important doctrine for them. Sabbath and other non-salvation issues take their proper place when they truly understand and accept the gospel message.

The ones who have surprised me the most have been the SDAs that cut off discussions with me, angry, only to write back months later humbly thanking me for making them put the "first thing first" and excitedly telling how wonderful it is to be saved and no longer live in fear and doubt.

This insistance on putting the basics of salvation first has not had 100% success in my experience but debating the sabbath and other non-salvation doctrines has had 100% FAILURE at bringing people to Christ. I'd prefer to go with the low percentage success than the 100% failure. The people who have come to Christ by this message prefer it too!

When you discuss nonsalvation issues such as the sabbath with a SDA (or Mormon distincive with a Mormon) you are play on their "field"...they have the "home field advantage". You will never make any headway with them on this doctrine and even if you did it is not what they need. If all you do is teach them 7th day sabbath keeping is not required but never teach them what (whom) they need to trust in in order to be saved you have done them a great diservice.

Also, when you only discuss the issues they want to discuss, they leave feeling more "right" than ever. They did not encounter anything in your discussion that would make them feel the need for the Saviour. When you stick to the gospel message alone, they leave feeling they need to brush up on that subject a little better. They do not feel good about their ability to defend their position on this subject. This is what worked for me personally, it is the reason I am saved and secure in my relationship with the Lord and also why I am a "former" rather than a "current" SDA.

People need the Lord, whether they know it or not. If we can help them see their need for a Saviour and open their heart and mind to Him, that is about the best thing we can do for any human that is not saved, regardless of their background.

Bill Thompson
Violet
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I talked to my sister and told her about my decision to withdraw from the SDA orginization, she wanted me to send her what I had read on the subjects. As I thought about it I would have to load up pages and pages and books and books worth of information. She is a working mother of three under the age of 9. No way would she ever be able to pick it up and read it all. So I have started e-mailing her passages. Starting where I started, breaking down the false hood that ellen White is a prophet. I have sent her passages on how White says you must be reconciled to God through obediance. Then texts in the Bible where it says you were reconciled while still and enemy of God. Then I plan to progress to passages such as "you have to stop sinning to let Jesus in your heart". Things that she can just look at and know they are not right. I love the one where she says you need to look at tithe records before you can pray for the sick. That one should score 1000 points for grace. I agree it is a gradual process of identifying where your salvation comes from. Then once you have your eyes on Jesus it is strange how everything else becomes so dim.
Billthompson
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One more personal observation about dealing with SDAs. Since most SDAs I talk to know I am a former they are often trying to figure out why I left ("where I went wrong"). This is what starts a conversation rolling between a current SDA and myself in almost all cases. They usually are trying "set me straight".

With this in mind, look how wrong it is for me to allow them to select the subjects we will discuss. It assumes they already know why I left and they almost always do not. Since the sabbath is so important to most SDAs they'll usually assume I came upon some "false" sabbath doctrine or no longer wanted to obey God in this area, got a good paying job where I had to work Saturday, etc. This is way off base on their part.

I left the SDA church over the Gospel Message, salvation by grace and not works. I felt the SDA church taught a false gospel and I had to go where the true Gospel was being taught. The salvation message was the most important thing to me when I left. To tell the truth I was still struggling with the sabbath but knew it was not a salvation issue. It took time for me to come to my current beliefs about the sabbath and my current beliefs about the sabbath had nothing to do with my leaving. I do not want to give them the wrong impression in this regard.

The same goes for Ellen G. White. Some SDAs come to me assuming I heard something bad about EGW and left the SDA church so they set about to discuss her with me. She is a total nonissue for me. Our family was not that big on her when I was a SDA and I did not learn of her plagiarism until years after I had left the SDA church. So it is wrong for me to leave them with the idea she had something to do with my leaving.

It is all about the Gospel. That was the only message which reached me and the only one I have had any results with in reaching SDAs.

Bill Thompson
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Bill,

Your last two posts are the most thought provoking and insightful that I have read on the subject of talking/witnessing to SDAs since I have been coming to FAF.

I had never noticed the dynamics that you site here and I can see how true they are in most instances.

I remember a long time ago telling my father that the only reason I remain on the SDA roles was the Sabbath issue. I did not have the gospel message then. And although I was not an active participant at an SDA church, and did not buy into much of their doctrine, I could not psychologically leave. Why? Because I did not have the GOSPEL MESSAGE. So true. It is so all encompassing that once understood, all of the TRADITIONS, MORES, RITUALS, FALSE BELIEFS....will come tumbling down like the domino effect (even if it is in slow motion!!!)

Once again, thank you. I have been living in despair over how to speak with my SDA family. I wish to show them all of the false doctrines. They seem so obvious to me. But what I should be focusing on is what is paramount!!!!

Valerie

I can not thank you enough for sharing this.
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Violet,

What is your sister's response? Your approach seems reasonable to compare EGW's message to the GOSPEL MESSAGE.

But does it bring defensiveness on your sister's part? Or does she see the GOSPEL? Does she see this as you prooving EGW wrong or as presenting a WONDERFUL NEWS to her?

I would like to know. As I am wishing to share with my family.

What do you think about Bill's last two posts? I have always thought that if I could just show them the doctrinal errors of EGW that the rest would follow. But I am really tuned into what Bill has to say.

Your approach appears to have elements of both approaches. Is it working? Or do you find that your sister isn't able to get past defending EGW to see the GOSPEL?

Violet, I am so glad you have come to FAF. Your candid sharing is adding an incredible amount to this discussion.

Thank you so much.

Valerie
Violet
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val, I have not heard back from her, I e-mailed it yesterday. My sister is one of the most level headed persons I know. She is not a died in the wool SDA, more like she was raised in the church left for about 20 years and is just now getting back into it. Her husband was really the impitus of this. He owns his own business and was working 70-80 hours a week. Something was missing so he went back to church. I just cannot help wondering how he will feel knowing that works is not where its at. (I do know that he is contantly battling the church board, wanting to do things they think is not proper, he has started going outside the board to get private funding to do his projects) My sister has not gotten into it as much as she just had a baby in August and has not had the time. So she is in the transitional stage. So so much of what I am up against with her is stuff she learned in academy in the late 70's.
I am excited to see how the Holy Spirit works through me. I was thinking earlier, no one in my area that I know of is doing this (openingly coming out of the SDA orginization), the field is wide open for the Holy Spirit.

Bill's posts are very wisly put together. It gave me much to think about. This has been my struggle. I never knew how to correctly present my thoughts without putting people on the defensive. I have to tell you the Lord gave me a very valuable lesson about 3 weeks ago. I was on a board debating homosexuals in Boy Scouts. I learned that you cannot use the Bible to defend you position when you are talking with pagans. It was a very humbling experiance.
Violet

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