| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Chyna, ^^I wonder what would happen to the Adventist church without all the financial backing...^^ The backing will eventually be lacking. Reasons: 1. OFTA percapita income worldwide has declined over the past 50 years or so by at least two orders of magnitude (or one one-hundredth of what it once was, this despite rising percapita income among NAD OFTAs). The effect in NAD (North American Division) is that 10 percent of the membership HERE (perceived as wealthy) must support (to some degree, largely institutional) 90 percent of the membership OUT THERE (perceived as destitute). Can't be done, of course. 2. NAD OFTAs are slowly changing color -- from white to brown to black. And with this color change comes the inevitable corresponding decline in socio-economic status, translating into ever-reducing "real dollar" tithes'n'offerings. 3. Due largely to the activities of Ford, Ray, Brinsmead, Ratzlaff, Davenport, and many others, the scales are falling from the eyes of many upper-income NAD OFTAs. When this happens they begin to see red. And when they see red they begin to withhold green if you know what I mean. 4. NAD OFTA young -- especially preppies, varsitites, genexers, dinks, yuppies, revisioners, self-identityers, etc. -- are increasingly going in one of two directions. They either: (A) Leave the denom in numbers (with corresponding reduction the all-important fuel called tithes'n'offerings, or, (B) Become "cultural Adventists" (CAs). How do the CAs negatively affect the pseudogospel of tithes'n'offerings? Here's how: CA OFTAs are extraordinarily casual about their religion. They take what they want, leave the rest, and the devil take the hindmost. Three examples: 1. Before baptism they agree not to wear jewelry, for example. Afterwards, though, they have no qualms about wearing rings, ear- rings, pearl necklaces and the like. "And if you don't like it, Eld. Pastorman Sir, weeell you can just bleep off." This example doesn't tell you much about reducing the lifeblood tithes'n'offerings. But it segues into the next example which does. And in spades! 2. If moved to tears by a tear-jerking mission story from Borneo -- about a native OFTA who risked his life by not eating pig with his tribe, say -- they may give $$$$$$. But systemitized giving? "Oh, but that's another story, Eld. Pastorman Sir, and if you don't wanna hear it, weeell you can just bleep off." And the next example is even more damning. 3. If a CA kid is in an OFTA college or university -- complements of OFTA Daddy Warbucks back home -- the CA stu doesn't have to worry about getting "kicked out" like they once did. And so it's paaaaarty time! For instance, in my day if admin caught you out smokin' or drinkin' or goin' to a movie, you likely were "kicked out" posthaste. Now they send the CA kid to KKK (Kampus Kounseling Klub). Which the CA kid considers a crackup. Reason: If they kicked out the CA offender they would forfeit Daddy Warbucks' bucks. And that they can't AFFORD to take that risk. Why not? They don't have enough $$$$$$ as it is. They need ever more $$$$$$ to attract and retain the kind of teaching talent they need to supply LLUSM, for example, with MedStu tithes'n'offerings fodder. Got to avoid that vicious downward $$$$$$ helix at all costs and by all means. Nuff sed bout dat. There's more to tell than time to tell it. But I think you're getting the pic. The lesson from Holy Scripture: "The one who hears my words [lifelong sinlessness by grace alone] and does NOT put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete." NIV Luke 7:49. Like the song says, "It's only a matter of time." God is not mocked. Agape, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
BillThompson, Hi! :-)) Wonderful comments you wrote! I agree the Gospel message is the message of FIRST IMPORTANCE! By exhibiting a CONFIDENCE and JOY in your REST in CHRIST ALONE... this alone is MYSTIFYING to many of them! The message of the Cross of Christ has such POWER that our arguments on other issues pale in significance.... There can be time LATER for discussing all the craziness in the doctrines...:-)) AFTER they see the TOTAL SUFFFICIENCY of JESUS! I think you have a good idea, too, Violet; to just try a little at a time! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Max....Hi! :-)) You are on a roll today!!! How many cups of coffee have you had? :-)) (just kidding!) You have some very true observations!... I would just balance it with my observation that there are MANY LOVING people in Adventism who truely believe they have a "last-day message" to proclaim and so are not just motivated by $$$$, but have a sincere desire to spread the "gospel" message (albeit a EGW tainted one!) so Jesus can come. And definitely, as Bill Hardison noted by his experience, not all of those who differ in beliefs are "shunned". I have been in the midst of wonderful Adventist family and friends most of my life...only two real crazy and what I would term extreme cultic mentality churches. I have been the recipient of much love and continuing discussions with many of them... One other thing, last week I attended a seminar by a Walla Walla professor who mentioned that they are not kicking kids out immediately now for drugs and alcohol usage, but are sending them to "recovery" so they can stay in school. There probably is that "financial factor" in keeping them, as you say; but I also think there is a real concern for the individual students' involved. I know we were treated with kindness and help when we needed it. Perhaps there was an ulterior motive involved, but I will still be grateful for the way we were treated... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Cindy. H having been on the "inside" for many years, I'm not quite so sanguine about it as you are. I've seen the lying, knavery, hypocritical "loving actions" far too long to believe that there is anything close to what you describe. I'm not talking here about the pew-sitters. I'm talking about "inside the beltway" Adventism. For example, I'm familiar with WWC's "treatment program" and I know a great deal more than what you've been told about it by their spokesperson. What the students think about it, for example. But I don't want to get into this any more. Not worth it. Love in Christ, MC | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Thanks for your observations...:-)) I didn't want to paint such a rosy picture that people would want to join the denomination...:-)) The ERRORS of the doctrine far out-weighs the kindness and help given! There is that DANGER in any "cult" that people will swept into it by loving and helpful members who descend on them at "prophecy seminars" and "evangelistic crusade"!! The ATTENTION given a non-Adventist visitor (with Sabbath-dinner invitations to homes or potlucks and social events) can be very comforting to those who are lonely and unfamiliar with the TRUE GOSPEL of CHRIST ALONE!! They can easily be drawn in with all that attention (and all those proof texts!) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Blessings, Cindy, I understand your concern for OFTA errors of doctrine. But I don't think this kind of cultism makes much of a case for "kind and loving" action being driven simply by innocent mistaken notions about God. Do you have any idea of the hard, cold salesmanship that goes into these kinds of membership drives? From my babyhood up I've been involved. And I can assure you that there is extremely little that is truly "kind and loving" about them. Example: There have always been goals and contests and awards for motivating people to proselytize. Is this what you you mean by "kind and loving"? Another example: I was an LE (literature evangelist) fora summer while attending OFTA university. Sold the eleven-volume, color- illustrated Uncle Arthur's Bible Story set. When a sale was "hanging in the balance," I was trained (officially, by HHES, in the conference office building) to make this "closing pitch" to the suburban housewife: "Ma'am, if you'll buy today, I'll split my comission with you." Now you be the housewife here for the moment. What would you think when you heard that offer? Wouldn't you think fifty-fifty? That is, if my commission was $200, you would get half ($100) off the sales price and I would keep the other half But if you're thinking that, then..... Bzzzzt! Wrong! It was OFFICIALLY split by HHES ninety-ten in the HHES salesperson's favor! In other words on a $200 commission I would get $180 and she would get $20. No lie. That's HOW IT WORKED! Cindy, this is outright fraud! I NEVER engaged in it. But there were plenty who did. And it was official policy. There was nothing "kind and loving" about it. Hear Jesus on this topic: RSV Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you TRAVERSE SEA AND LAND to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a CHILD OF HELL as yourselves." Now would you, against Jesus' own words, characterize "children of hell" as "kind and loving" people who just happened to have an innocently mistaken notion about Christ not being the messiah? Sorry, but I just can't buy it. My looong experience cannot be wrong. We're just not dealing simply with "kind and loving" people who just happen to have some wrongheadded notions about God. Doesn't work that way. Not "inside the beltway" anyway. Sorry to get so wound. (Come to think of it, I did have two mugs of coffee today, grinding my own frozen beans.) But believe me, I KNOW whereof I speak. And grace always to you too, somewhat- naive-but-still-precious one. MC | ||
| Kelly |
Bill Thompson, I've not read your "three questions" to Adventist concerning the gospel. Would you post them? I'm wondering if I know the correct answers!! | ||
| Lydell |
Speaking of those "Bible Story" books, Max.....I have begun taking the opportunity when I go to the doctor or dentist to let them know exactly where the freeby book in their waiting room originated and that they are NOT based on the Bible. I recently went to a new doctor. A friend had told me he was a Christian. When I filled the doc in on the point of the inspiration for those books coming from a false prophetess rather than being directly from the Bible, he looked pretty upset. It just seems an opportunity that we shouldn't pass up. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Well, once again our Lord has come through to help me better know how to approach SDAs. Again, yesterday and today, I was in the mist of a studies with SDAs. This is happening even though I thought it wouldn't be part of my life anymore. Maybe God is deciding, :) Anyhow, to Bill Thompson I have a question..or for that matter, to anyone who will feel free to give me some feedback. The question is this: If an Adventist believes that the Sabbath is a matter of salvation, then it stands to reason that this is indeed a salvific issue. Another way of putting this question is this: If a SDA believes that he or she will not be "translated" unless we keep the 7th day Sabbath, then it, for them, is a matter of Salvation. The Sabbath then becomes an idol, no? The reason I ask is due to these unplanned studies, it is appearing that the belief held is this. That although it is by grace through faith we have been saved, it won't work unless you keep the Sabbath. How else can I respond or work with them? I keep pointing out the Gospel in numerous ways. But they insist that yes it is Jesus that saves (not saved) us, but that He will not, at the second coming translate us UNLESS the Sabbath is being observed. I even tried pointing out how leaving the home was violating the Sabbath..that didn't work. I pointed out circumcision and to my surprise, they bragged about how all their boys do get circumcized. What say ye? There is a good report through all this, one devout SDA friend of mine is studying Hebrews, Romans and Galatians and is asking me many questions! Last night was Hebrews (thanks to FAF meeting handouts..thank you!). The funny thing about this is that I had suggested last night that one week I listen to her SDA quarterly and study the topics that she is studying at Church and then the next week we study what I'm studying in my studies. She agreed. Today, she doesn't want to study her quarterly but would rather continue studying Hebrews with me. :) God is Good. Just don't mention ham or pork around her!! yikes!! <chuckle> Now her and I go to bat with each other at times, I'll admit. BUT there is something good coming through all of this inspite of our hot under the collar responses, defenses and comments. But we always end in friendship and that is a mutual understanding we've had since the beginning. To not let the sun go down on us if we are angry at one another. We work it out. God Bless all, DtB | ||
| Denisegilmore |
While I'm here, I might as well recommend Dale Ratzlaff's books "Cultic Doctrine" and "Sabbath In Crisis." These books are wonderful and educational as to the SDAs doctrines and the why's of them as well. He shows just how so many doctrines are linked with the other doctrines in such a way that to omit say,,,the Investigative Judgement, would crumble the SDA Church. Amazing. Thank you Dale! God sure used you in a great way! Blessings to all, DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, I really hate to say this, but after having rethought the whole WWC "treatment program" thing and I now believe that you were taken in by the smooth-talking WW prof. I'd bet $100.00 to $1.00 I know him. You wrote: ^^Last week I attended a seminar by a Walla Walla professor who mentioned that they are not kicking kids out immediately now for drugs and alcohol usage, but are sending them to "recovery" so they can stay in school. There probably is that "financial factor" in keeping them, as you say; but I also think there is a real concern for the individual students' involved.^^ You know, his rationale doesn't make sense from any standpoint whatsoever. For instance, take mental health -- which is what their so-called "recovery" is supposed to be about. Where in all health and medical research is there the slightest indication that college-age kids experimenting with alcohol is a MENTAL ILLNESS or even an ADDICTION needing recovery? Come ON, Cindy! If that reached the ears of the accrediting body WWC's accreditation would be endangered! This is absurd! This is a school that offers DEGREES in psychology, sociology, and a MASTER's degree, the MSW, in social work! Cindy, you're too smart to be taken in by that kind of nonsense! You KNOW that such a "recovery" counseling program is a front and a sham! The kids up there scoff at it openly -- even in the student newspaper. They may be wealthy doctors' kids, premeds headed for LLUSM, but that doesn't mean they're stupid and don't know how to "work a system" when they see one. especially one this easy to "work." And you know what? Nobody gets in trouble for all that scoffing. Why not? You figure it out! Recovery program? Riiiight! MC | ||
| Billthompson |
Kelly, Here are the three questions along with a statement I usually preface them with: Could you share your testimony with me and could you address these three points in your testimony? Please be very specific with each area. --What (or whom) you are trusting in for salvation? --Did the blood of Jesus cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? --Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
Denise, Yes, many SDAs do see the sabbath as a salvation issue for those living in the last days. Here is a question I ask them, "So, is this a different plan of salvation for the last days?" If it is, then this is a different "gospel" message for the last days. Doesn't the Bible warn against a "different gospel". See Galatians 1:6-8. Then go back to passages such as Eph. 2:8,9 or Romans 3:20-24 that show we are not saved by works, never have been and never will be. They get this "sabbath test" for the last days from a convoluted misinterpretation of the book of Revelation (ie., Rev. 12:17). Their ideas derived from the book of Revelation contradicts the gospel message presented in the rest of the New Testament. This breaks a rule of Biblical interpretation. The Bible can not contradict itself. The bottom line, James and Ellen White and other SDA pioneers who experienced the "great disappointment" of William Miller's unbiblical date setting, were not Bible scholars and seemed to lack understanding of the Gospel message itself. They were desparately looking for reasons why Christ did not return when they thought he would. They had little understanding of the sovereignty of God and thought God was waiting for them to do certain things or pass certain last days tests and they came up with the sabbath as a last days test. This was about the same time they also believed that "probation had closed" in 1844, the "door of salvation was closed" to any who had not accepted Miller's unbiblical date setting. They gave up the closed door (or Miller test for salvation) in the next few years but clung to the "sabbath test". The whole "last days test" which requires a person to meritt salvation is unbiblical, regardless of WHAT that test is. They just did not understand the gospel and thus developed faulty theology to surround it, the "Investigative Judgement" being a prime example. Bill Thompson | ||
| Kelly |
Bill, Thanks for posting your "three questions": I'm going to attempt to be totally honest, some of these issues I am still struggling with,so I'm going to answer them with my former opinions (which is the Adventist viewpoint) since I still haven't become firmly established in a new system of beliefs. What or whom are you trusting in for your salvation? I believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, but I also still believe in the doctrines of the SDA church and I haven't totally let go of the Sabbath keeping as a sign that you are truly committed to Christ. Did the blood of Christ cover just your past sins or ALL your sins? I've been taught that when I accepted Christ as my Savior that all my sins were forgiven. After salvation, the sins that I commit separate me from God again and in order to maintain my relationship with Him I must confess my sins. Any unconfessed sins keep me from His presence. I believe that all my sins were forgiven at the cross, past and present, but that after I am saved I have to ask God's forgiveness in order to be cleansed from those sins that I commit after accepting Christ. Do you have a firm assurance of salvation? YES, as long as I keep following the commands of God. As far as an unconditional assurance of salvation, NO, I don't believe in once you are saved you can't lose you salvation, I believe that it is based upon your continuing to obey God. | ||
| Lydell |
Kelly, I John 5:11-13 says, "And this is the testimony; God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." And Romans 10:9 and 10 says "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." Do either of those verses say anything about, "as long as I keep following the commands of God" being a requirement for continuing to be saved? | ||
| Billthompson |
Kelly, You state the SDA beliefs exactly as I would expect. What I'd like you to consider is this. Are you trusting in Christ ALONE for your salvation? The answers you gave seem to indicate otherwise. Some SDAs answer that first question by saying they are trusting in Christ ALONE for their salvation but then go on to respond the same way you did to the next two questions. At least you were consistant, you never claimed "Christ ALONE" is sufficient for our salvation. This is where we would disagree. There seems to be a heavy dependance on your works after conversion. If this is true, is there "room to boast" in the way you live after conversion. Ephesians 2:8,9 says salvation is a "GIFT", not of works and that no one has any room to boast where salvation is concerned. It is all about what Christ did for us, not what we have done for Him where salvation is concerned. (Read Romans 3:20-24; Titus 3:5; Galatians 2:16; Galatians 5:4; and Romans 3:28) Naturally, once we are "new creatures in Christ" there is indeed a change in our lifestyle, but this is the "fruit" of our salvation not the "root". As Lydell quoted, the Bible does indeed teach that we can have assurance of our salvation. If we are saved by anything other than the grace of God ALONE (independant of our works), then Christ died for nothing. "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Galatians 2:21 Do you remember being taught as a SDA that the sabbath is the "seal" of salvation. See what the Bible says. "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED, you were MARKED in him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit GUARANTEEING our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13,14 When are we saved? After we prove ourselves worthy? No, this passage says we are sealed when we believe and it even says the Holy Spirit (our seal) "guarantees" our inheritance. Here is another passage: "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his SEAL of ownership on us, and put HIS SPIRIT in our hearts as a DEPOSIT, GUARANTEEING what is to come." 2 Corinthians 1:21,22 You see it is ALL about what He has done for us, not what we have done for Him. He is even the one who makes us "stand firm" after conversion. Bill Thompson | ||
| Billthompson |
Kelly, As a real eye opener, study the book of Romans, then the book of Galatians. As a SDA we were told we knew our Bibles better than any other church. Study these books and you may conclude that is not true. I remember memorizing the missionary journey's of Paul and being able to draw them with colored pencils on a map. I learned this in SDA schools. What I did not learn was the message Paul preached on those journeys. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, that is us. Let's see what he taught those early converts. Take about a year and study the Bible alone, without EGW books, without SDA Bible Commentaries or SDA Sabbath School Quarterlies (heavily EGW influenced). Do so prayerfully and faithfully and see what God does in your life. I have seen blind eyes opened by this proceedure. Bill Thompson | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, Bill and Lydell have done a lovely job articulating that JESUS is our complete salvation. The fruits of the Spirit, or our works are a love response to God. Nothing more. I enjoyed reading Romans 3:20-25. I love the ALL inclusiveness of this text. We have all sinned and are all justified FREELY by his grace. I love the chapter in Hebrews pointing to Christ as our High Preist. Therefore he is able to save COMPLETELY those who come to God through him, because he ALWAYS LIVES TO INTERCEDE for them Hebtrew 7:25 I get excited about the completeness of the act and the constancy of it. We will NEVER EVER be with out an intercessor. In the history of our planet or our lives Jesus' intercession for us will not cease!! I also love this verse: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. Hebrews 8:6. Go on to read the beautiful qoute from Jeremiah that Paul places in v 8-12. He completes this with: By calling this covenant new he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Kelly I will always remind you, as Bill has, that you have the SEAL of GOD's ownership upon you. He is with you always. No mater what you do and what you forget to confess, you are his and this SEAL is a guarantee of what is to come. Warmest thoughts and wishes to you Kelly, I have really enjoyed your candor and kindness to all of us. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
OK guys, I do have a tough question of my own. In reading on in Romans chapter 3, what then does verse 31 mean? I know what SDA's would say. These texts must be thoughtfully contemplated and I am at a loss on this one. Valerie | ||
| Richardhardison |
Bill, you and I went round and round in October of 1999 on your three questions. Your answers are calvinist in nature and reflect the presuppositions of your Independent Baptist present which is every bit as unbiblical as the legalists I've met among Wesleyans (and SDA are Wesleyan in their soteriology). How would a person who accepts the Bible alone for their authority in matters of doctrine answer those questions? Herewith, 1. I trust Christ alone for salvation because his death made possible forgiveness of sin. 2. Christ made it possible for all sins to be covered as I live a life of faith (read the book of James). Belief alone is not sufficient. The demons believe and tremble. True faith yields action in response to that faith. Sin is forgiven only as it is confessed (1 John 1:9 IF we confess our sin...) 3. I have the assurance of salvation by the witness of the spirit in tandem with His word which tells me a life of faith In Christ yields salvation. Bill, your answers to 2 and 3 are straight from Calvin's Institutes which are full of logical and scriptural errors that were first propounded by Augustine. Spurgeon disagreed with you on 2 (he was pastor of the Metropolitan Baptist Tabernacle of London and was a staunch Calvinist who was beginning to discover the Book of James and 1 John). Once saved always saved is patently unbiblical. Most of the NT writers had something to say about falling away, having your crown stolen, etc., and the talk wasn't hypothetical. James put paid to any such thoughts teaching that faith and salvation were intimately intertwined Richard L. Hardison |
