| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Q: Ever wonder why OFTA pastors and "head elders" call for tithes AND offerings? A: Because your tithe ISN'T a freewill offering at all. It's a tax =10% pure and simple. Illustration: A not-uncommon OFTA practice (whre not illegal) forced upon OFTA church employees (ministers, nurses, janitors, mill workers, hell-food (oops, I mean health-food) factory workers, unamems): To DEDUCT the tithe from your paycheck before you get that crucial slip of paper. Yep. Just like IRS withholding. Sorry, but 'tis true, 'tis true. Horror stories, anyone? MC | ||
| Valm |
WHAT?????? You mean they have no choice in the matter? Tithe is just taken out, not voluntarily but as a requirement of employment? I have never heard of this. I would like to here stories about this. Valerie | ||
| Violet |
When we first started our "church" 3 years ago (SDA) my husband was asked to call for the offering. We had many new people who were clueless to the Adventist tithing system. We were paying in a major portion to the conference because the new people thought the tithe stayed local. Well he got up there with a tithe envelope in hand and pointed out each line. Line by line and finally said "IF you want it to stay here in this congregation put it on THIS line". He said the conference man in the front row squiremed the whole time he was talking. But these people had to know where there money was going in order to make informed decision. I do know that when I was in the 10th grade in an SDA day school the principle was fired over not tithing. | ||
| Max |
Valerie, It never happened to me -- probably because it's illegal in the U.S. (Not that OFTAs aren't lawbreakers. They most certainly are when they think they can get away with breaking the law. Case in point: the decade-long Merikay v. Pacific Press case.) But I've heard horror stories galore from returned mercenaries -- oops, I mean, missionaries. MC | ||
| Cindy |
Although the tithe wasn't taken directly out of our check, we definitely HAD to tithe. Or we would have been "counseled" with...I know of at least one pastor who was "let go" because he wasn't paying tithe. Adding on the recommended "World Budget" percentage... and then "Church Budget" percentage, PLUS other "offerings", made the total percentage "recommended" up around 25% on our Tithe Envelopes... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Graceambassador |
Max: great quote for a pounding thought: your quote: Illustration: A not-uncommon OFTA practice (whre not illegal) forced upon OFTA church employees (ministers, nurses, janitors, mill workers, hell-food (oops, I mean health-food) factory workers, unamems): To DEDUCT the tithe from your paycheck before you get that crucial slip of paper. Yep. Just like IRS withholding. Sorry, but 'tis true, 'tis true. The thought: THE ABOVE MENTIONED PEOPLE DO THE VERY OPPOSITE OF WHAT JESUS DID: JESUS CALLED TAX COLLECTORS TO BE PREACHERS... THE ORGANIZATION YOU MENTIONED ABOVE CALL PREACHERS TO BE TAX COLLECTORS... WHAT A TWIST! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
Afraid so, GA, sadly. I'm beginning to wonder if it all doesn't come down to $$$$$$ after all. A long-time minister / administrator friend of mine, who was in a bind for some shenanigan he chose not to share with me, once told me, "When they [meaning the fellow brethren] have you cornered, LIE!" This person is now very high up in the organization earning, I'm guessing now, in the range of $100,000/year. He made it! Friends, believe me when I say that "inside the beltway" it's simply not works-oriented, "kind and loving" people. It's the law of the jungle, "red of tooth and claw," in Kipling's words. MC | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Please, has anyone ever done a study on Tithe? When I came to know what was going on in the church, I ask questions, the answers that I got made me ask more questions. NOW I AM NOT AGAINST USING THE TITHE FOR THE WORK OF THE LORD, PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME. But look at this; The old testament the tithe was for the operations of the Sanctuary, it paid the Priest and those that took care of the sanctuary. Now what happened to the sanctuary at the death of Jesus? All those that worked in and around the sanctuary out of a job. So lets look at the text in the new testament on tithe. Now any text before Jesus death is still under the old sanctuary service. So here we go. (Mat 23:23 KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Luke 11:42 KJV) But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. (Luke 18:12 KJV) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. these don't count, still before the death of Jesus. (Heb 7:5 KJV) And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: (Heb 7:6 KJV) But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. (Heb 7:8 KJV) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. (Heb 7:9 KJV) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. Again I say no problem with doing what the SDA church is doing, but where is the command to do this after the death of Jesus. Also look at this; Mal. 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ORDINANCES, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? The Evangelist that I worked with preached a sermon on what was nailed to the cross, and, yes you guessed it, the ordinances were nailed to the cross, and the tithes was one of them. Again, use the tithe for the Lords work but don't lie about it. Also the tithe was to take care of other people; Deut. 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest. AA | ||
| Valm |
Andrew, I think you just did the study you were wondering about!!! Valerie | ||
| Graceambassador |
Andrew: Go to the discussion in this forum called "Covenant Theology" and read some studies that a fellow writer of this forum posted in there about things inexistent in the New Covenant. So far is the best material I've ever seen in the subject. Just for to "wet" taste buds, I myself have a study on it and let me point out to you that Paul, the REVELATOR OF THE COVENANT OF GRACE IN ITS FULLNESS, when teaching the Church, USED THE OLD TESTAMENT FOR VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS TEACHINGS. PAUL WANTED TO BASE HIS TEACHING ON THE "SHADOW" AND THEN REVEALED THE SUBSTANCE. This means that Paul, utilizes the OT as a foundation to prove that it pointed to Christ. Now, this man, that used the OT for all his doctrines to be followed by the church, when teaching about giving, did not put any effort to say the least, on OT teaching. My point is, you don't see Paul teaching about giving using Malachi 3:10 and many of the other doctrines used by CURRENT teachers to teach on giving based upon the Jewish law - FROM GENISIS TO ACTS, (the Gospel and Acts being the period where the Church was still pretty much Jewish) Paul, rather teaches that: - giving is private between the giver and God - is to be given voluntarily and cheerfully rather than legally - is proportional to one's love and not a legal amount (if you love God's work only 10%...). Even the current teachers of tithing WILL HONESTLY ADMIT THAT TITHING WAS NEVER 10% OF ONE'S INCOME AS WE UNDERSTAND INCOME TODAY. THIS IS A DISTORTION OF THE BIBLE. TITHING WAS OF THE INCREASE... MEANING PROFIT ABOVE AND BEYOND THAT WHICH ONE WOULD USE FOR HIS OWN SUPPORT. THEN THERE WAS THE FIRST FRUITS, WHICH WAS ALSO A YIELD, RATHER THAN INCOME! I humbly hope this helps... This is an issue that hurts a lot of people, so, anyone that disagrees with this, it is okay. Grace does not demand us to be right all the time! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Thank you Grace Ambassador, the information adds a great deal to what we believe is truth. When one ask an SDA about the text in Deut. 14, you get answers like "that was a third tithe." So lets call for a another tithe to take care of those in the middle. HA HA. AA | ||
| Shereen |
I remember one Sabbath, the head elder was up front giving ppl heck for not tithing. He said that the ones who were not tithing, and he knew who they were, were without faith. He had one member come up front and tell how horrible he did financially until he started tithing and boom, he was financially successful. They went on and on for quite awhile about how you will never be blessed until you start tithing. Well, this one man,father of two small children and a stay at home wife, stood up almost crying with anger. They were very poor. He was working intermittently and they were receiveing assistance from Social Services also. This family were one of the few families loyally helping out in the Soup Kitchen every week. This family did help out in all the meetings and church activities. He said that if he was to tithe, he wouldn't be able to feed his kids. They didn't even have enough money to feed and cloth the children adequately. He had tears in his eyes. He demanded to know what could possibly be done. He asked all the ppl in the congregation, what was he supposed to do!!! Would he watch his children cry with hunger!?!?!? The answer from the congregation was that he was supposed to be faithful and trust that God would supply all his needs. This is a very rich congregation. A few millionaires are in this congregation and the rest are very successful business ppl. Most had more than enough to survive and go on holidays and dress to the nines etc. None of these so called "Good, loyal, tithing SDA's" cared that this family was barely making it. None of these ppl stepped into the soup kitchen. None of these ppl did anything they didn't have to do but they DID judge this man and his lack of tithing. I hated the church that day and have never been able to erase the picture of that day in my mind. Shereen | ||
| Valm |
God bless that man and his family. What courage it took for him that day. If I gave God every penny I had today, and allowed my children to be neglected, it would still not be a drop in the bucket to what he has given me and my family. And my own children would suffer and not understand the love of God. What a powerful story you have told Shereen on learning to love, being sensitive and nonjudgemental to other's situations. Valerie | ||
| Andrew_adams |
This is very sad, I wonder what this church would say about this; (Mat 10:42 KJV) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. (Mat 25:40 KJV) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. This is what this kind of church is thinking; Counsels on Stewardship, page 103, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Use of the Tithe Not a Poor Fund The tithe is set apart for a special use. It is not to be regarded as a poor fund. It is to be especially devoted to the support of those who are bearing God's message to the world; and it should not be diverted from this purpose.-- R. & H. Supplement, Dec. 1, 1896 . Bible says; Deut. 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest. I quess this group of people are rich strangers, fatherless and widows. AA | ||
| Violet |
Ellen White had to dictate that type of purpose for the tithe, to conference, minister use only, or the buearucratic nightmare would not survive. The GC is worse than the government, at least every 4 years everyone gets a chance to vote the big guy out in the US. The GC is like the energizer bunny it keeps going and going. | ||
| Billtwisse |
GA: Thanks so much! A personal recommendation: don't calculate a 'percentage' of any kind when giving (endless legalism)! Don't even try and figure out what the 'baseline' of income is to calculate the percentage (more endless legalism)! Give as the Lord has convicted your heart in joyful gratitude for the gospel and count it enough! --Twisse | ||
| Therese |
Does anyone know where all this tithe money goes? The local conference always claims to be broke and threatening to cut pastors. The local church doesn't see any benefit of the tithe other than the pastor's salary. Who gets all this money? Is it all going to pay the salaries and benefits of the many administrators in the multi-level SDA organization? Does anyone know how much money these SDA administrators make? Why are there so many SDA organizational layers? Is it to provide jobs and salaries to the inner circle of SDAs? Is the SDA church broke like it always claims? Lots of questions -- does anyone know some of these answers? Thanks. Therese | ||
| Max |
Therese, From what I've gleaned in recent years I would say this: No the SDA church isn't broke, but it is decidedly poorer on a per capita basis than it once was. There are many reasons for this. I. One is that when the church grew over the past half century from one million to ten million members, almost all of the new growth occurred in third world countries -- almost all in Africa, South and Central America. II. Another reason for this is that church membership in the North American Division has been changing color -- from white to brown to black. And this color change brings with it the inevitable reflection of the relative economic status of the newcomers. III. A third reason is the "cultural Adventist" phenomenon: This person is virtually immune to the old time-honored appeals for funds based on laying down a "guilt trip" on the pew-sitters. Thus, your observation -- "the local conference always claims to be broke and threatening to cut pastors" -- may have more truth in it now than it has had in the past. There are maaaany other reasons, but I believe these to be the top three. MC | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Bill YOU'RE WELCOME! I recommend your material on COVENANT THEOLOGY all the time, and I will do it any time, any day. Material such as that turned this forum into an endless resource of balanced teaching! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Andrew_adams |
Therese, This is a hard one, but the organization in ways, tell what is going on. Tey tell how much tithe the NAD received in one year, about 640 million, now that, to me isn't much of a problem. If you pay the pastors first, why do they have a problem? But that is not the issue, the issue is what do they do with al that money? I don't know but I do know this, mr. Folkenberg can invest 8 million and lose it, my question is, did he lose his money or the tithe? If it was his money, do they pay people at the top this kind of money? Then no wonder they have a problem. If it was his money, and he is that rich, he must be paying a lot of tithe. To be honest with you I don't think it was his money. So whos money was it? And why is he still on the Conference payroll? Funny, how some people can do things like this and still stay on the payroll. How can one get a job like this? Back to the business at hand, SECC, where I work part time, say that the Association has 64 million in the bank, what are they going to do with this? Also the SECC says that in one year they received about 31 million, these figures don't tell the whole story, but may be it will help. AA |
