| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Valerie again, Remember that I too, have many areas in my religious beliefs that just may fit into those five categories of Bill's post. If not now, I did at one time. Either way, truely I didn't take it personally as those were his beliefs as much as I have mine and you have yours. Let us all reason together and out of love, simply continue sharing in what we currently believe. You never know, maybe this time next year, we will all believe differently than we do now. Only God knows where each of us are and He knows where He is going to take us. Loving you still, in Christ our Lord God and Savior, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Denise, I have no problem with disagreements. It is in the manner in which they are done. Bill has a powerful message to bring to people. Yet he chooses to come across in an authoritive and superior voice. For example quoted from him a few days ago: Gnosticism! Sorry, I had to post a ėtitleķ that would make this post readable to those interested in attention-grabbing shibboleths. Otherwise, some would not read it at all! This smacks with an insult to the readers. Message it sends: you wouldn't have bothered to read this if I hadn't found a way to reach down to you to capture your interest. He goes on and on with historical facts which mamy of us have not had the time or interest in our lives to explore. Message: I am so much smarter than you that you must pay attention to me. He refuses to write to a general reading audience. Message: If you can not easily decipher this, you are not worthy of the message. Now lets look at his entry above: I tried to post a very passionate message in the middle of the night; but my composition was nullified by a spontaneous disconnect! In case some of the readers don't know what a 'spontaneous disconnect' is--due to my 'unspiritual' use of 'advanced' English (which is really very elementary)--it means that my internet communication in trying to post the message 'timed out'! What does 'timed out' mean? Ugh-I won't try to explain! Message I received: This is in reference to me telling him that he does have a message to send but if he is truly interested in people receiving it he will need to adjust his writing style to be sensitive to others as well as understanding that making a passage "readable" does not mean making it "interest catching" but easy to read. which is really "Very elementary" Message: if you have trouble understanding this you are a moron. Bill is obviously quite scholarly and well read in the history of Christianity and theology. He also is obviously very intelligent. I truly believe he has a lot of very interesting and valid points to make. But he greatly limits his ability to share in the manner in which he shares. Denise quite honestly, today I come here needing spiritual encouragement and a social connection. And right now I am just plain old drained. I do not need to come here to be insulted or hurt by him or anyone else. I can easily pick up the phone and engage in a conversation with one of my SDA relatives. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
I will quote Bill whom I disagree with: Even my liberal friends who left Adventism years ago are still slaves to the doctrine of the God-given ability of man to choose what is right--which fundamental is left over from a lifetime of SDA influence on their thinking. If you believe that idea, you cannot see the gospel. I believe that God has given me the ability to choose what is right. He promised through the prophet Jeremiah to do so and Paul was inspired by God to quote Jeremiahs prophecy: "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people" I hear this ideaology of man not having a God given ability to know right from wrong often here at FAF. It is attributed that believing so has to do with our roots in SDAism. I would challenge any of you to ask a wide variety of people if they believe God has given us the ability to know right from wrong and you will realize that this thought is not unique to Adventism or other cultic religions. I find it frustrating that if one does not agree with someone on this line they are so easily accused of "not seeing the Gospel". According to who? My next question is one of logic: If man cannot choose what is right, how can we possibly see or understand the Gospel, since it is considered right? I suppose God gives us the ability to make this right choice but not others? Once again, it is not the disagreement that burns my bottom. It is the condescending attitude that "if you disagree with my line of thought, you clearly don't have the Gospel message." Valerie | ||
| Valm |
I will quote Bill whom I disagree with: Even my liberal friends who left Adventism years ago are still slaves to the doctrine of the God-given ability of man to choose what is right--which fundamental is left over from a lifetime of SDA influence on their thinking. If you believe that idea, you cannot see the gospel. I believe that God has given me the ability to choose what is right. He promised through the prophet Jeremiah to do so and Paul was inspired by God to quote Jeremiahs prophecy: "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people" I hear this ideaology of man not having a God given ability to know right from wrong often here at FAF. It is attributed that believing so has to do with our roots in SDAism. I would challenge any of you to ask a wide variety of people if they believe God has given us the ability to know right from wrong and you will realize that this thought is not unique to Adventism or other cultic religions. I find it frustrating that if one does not agree with someone on this line they are so easily accused of "not seeing the Gospel". According to who? My next question is one of logic: If man cannot choose what is right, how can we possibly see or understand the Gospel, since it is considered right? I suppose God gives us the ability to make this right choice but not others? Once again, it is not the disagreement that burns my bottom. It is the condescending attitude that "if you disagree with my line of thought, you clearly don't have the Gospel message." Valerie | ||
| Allenette |
Denise: Nelson Mandela is a Communist by virtue of his beliefs. His wife was even worse. Are you black? Those of you on here who claim to be Christians, by definition, cannot support that cause for WHATEVER REASON you romanticize about, if you want to be consistent rather than popular. Do the homework. ta ta~~~~~~ | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Valerie, If I have added insult to injury, please forgive me as my intent was not that. Isn't it funny how two people can read the same thing and see it differently. We both read into Bill's post complete opposite things. I saw alot of good information being delivered from a heart that I believe to be sincere. You saw insult and a demeaning attitude. That's why sometimes I get all riled up over here and really nobody knows it but me. But I will read a post that is completely over my head and everyone else seems to understand what it is saying. They even are able to contribute to the conversation, whereas I'm stuck here with my limited ability to even know for sure what they're talking about. We all are just human beings trying to convey our beliefs and some of us (like me) can't even spell or punctuate properly, while others are absolute scholars. But in it all, I really think and believe that the intent behind all of our thoughts in typed form, is good. And having interacted with you not just on this forum but also in email, I know you are a good lady with a good mind. Same with Bill, he, in my opinion, has a good heart with a good mind. So do I,,,sometimes :) The point I'm trying to make is that it takes all kinds of ways to communicate. Some out there can only understand the scholarly. While others of us (me) can only understand the simple language. Infact, I even learned from you a new word. With all the diversity, I'm learning new phrases, new teachings, new ways of posting, new ways of relating to someone on their terms, new definitions on certain words and even new words that I've never heard before in my life. So, in it all, I try to take apart, sentence by sentence sometimes, to understand and learn. For me it is very hard to not take my computer and throw it through a window out of frustration at my own non understanding of something. I'm sure there are many out there that cannot stand my awful grammer, spelling or ideas. But I am who I am and as hard as I try to be what others expect of me, it's not happening to quickly. It is a slow process and then I'm not even sure I will ever be accepted by everyone in my writing style and deliverance of any message. I agree that condenscending remarks are not necessary but as the internet goes, this is going to happen whether we like it or not. Honestly, I hope that tonight you are back online and get some encouragement here. You are my friend and I care deeply that you are upset. If you need, email me and we can talk. Okay? Remember, I'm here and I do care. God Bless you and your family my friend, Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Allenette, It was back in the 80s, prior to becoming a Christian that I supported him. I was very glad when he was finally released from prison and even celebrated. With good reason as he should never have been put into prison in the first place, in my opinion. I still hold that opinion today. But the memories of a cause, even if at the time I didn't know ALL the facts, still bring sweet smiles from me. I had a good many other things as far as political endeavors that I was into also that weren't necessarily for the good of Christianity as I know it to be at this time in my life. I'm not a weathered Christian, just a babe. God Bless you Allenette, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Denise, You have a good heart all of the time. And I love your closing remarks to Allenette, "I am not a weathered Christian, just a babe." I do not think you quite mean a babe the way society means it but I like it still. Do not worry one bit about your grammar. People with good hearts will see past any grammatical errors you make to what your thought processes are. And by they way, your grammar is as good as anyones on line. Have a good night, I have to hit the sack so I can save babies with energy tomorrow. Valerie | ||
| Allenette |
Denise, Hey girl, that's ok,just wanted to straighten out a politically in-correct fact. South Africa as well as a few other "countries" down there, went thru some cleansings and basically it went from a white Commie country to a black Commie country (Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe is an example) "Free, Nelson Mandela" was a popular chant with a nice "beat" in the 80's. Took no brains to chant it, OR, STUDY IT, and its too much like a lot of current religio/pseudo political attitudes for me to not notice. But, this is prob not the forum to get into it.....I'm outa here gggg | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Valerie, What does babe mean in society? :::scratching my head not understanding::: Doesn't it mean "newbie" or something like that? Thank you for your vote of confidence, especially as to my heart and grammer. Have a good nights sleep and May our Lord Bless and Keep you and your family tonight. Goodnight Valerie, Denise, your unlearned friend that doesn't know what society means by "babe" | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Allenette, You are right, back in the 80s, that was the chant and I must of been one of the loudest. Thanks for the information and you are right, this is not the forum we could discuss this matter on. Too bad cause really it's interesting what happened between then and now. God Bless you again and always, See ya around, Denise P.S. Allenette, you seem to be into alot of things. Where is such a site that matters like this can be discussed? Thanks. :) | ||
| Billtwisse |
ALL: To those who receive a blessing from anything that I say, may God's blessings abound to you! To those who don't, may God's blessings abound to you also! I hope that someone is able to communicate truth in a paradigm that God has not called me to witness in. I apologize for an arrogant spirit wherever it has been manifest. I'm sure that it has at times! My sense of humor is very cynical and deviant, I know. Some will perceive it as critical and destructive--these people, unfortunately, do not know me personally at all. I believe that unless a point is stated with extreme clarity, conviction, and passion; it has little impact on people over the long term. There is a downside to this, however, When a person makes a strong point--he/she always risks the accusation of being condemnatory of others who believe differently. Condemnation, in my thinking, is stating that someone is going to hell. When Christ said 'judge not' he was referring to that attitude--not critical evaluation of history and beliefs. One of my favorite teachers in the Christian arena is Dr. Bob Morey. He has so much wisdom and knowledge of scripture that my mouth falls open when I hear him speak. For me, that partially means a response of "that is what I've believed for so many years, why is no one else saying this?" Anyway, his cynical sense of humor exceeds anything that I could manufacture in several lifetimes! For instance, his imitations of preachers and preaching styles are seen by many as an attitude of superiority and calling other pastors stupid. Many of his listeners--who don't know the man and his character--think that he is downright insulting, arrogant, and condemnatory. I can testify that nothing is further from the truth--if you know the man. Anyway, when my cynical attempts at expressing humor are perceived as serious by others, we both lose! On the issue of denominations, I will reiterate what I have said here many times. I have been in denominational churches all my life and will continue to be. However, I refuse to abandon feasting at the smorgasbord of the gospel and submit to the closed dogma offered by any one sect. Each sect with any degree of orthodoxy emphasizes some truth in line with the gospel that the others deny. --Twisse | ||
| Cindy |
Dear BillTwisse, Hi! :-)) I have just been silently reading here this past week because of family circumstances. I have been weary. I understand so little; except to know that I have much still to learn of God's forgiveness and grace to me...and to those I live with! I so agree with your passion of the defence of the gospel! I have been blessed by your posts! I loved your "covenant" ones... I guess I don't pick up an arrogant spirit from you... Perhaps I have that same cynical sense of humor! :-)) I'm not familiar with the man you mentioned. I think I would enjoy hearing him. Is he on radio? I pray for this forum... it's contributors and those who continue to silently read. I hope it remains "a place of GRACE". And stays focused on Christ. I realize corruption in the Adventist church is a reality in some areas, (as well as other churches); but I personally feel (perhaps this is because I have wonderful close relatives who have been "inside the beltway" in terms of the heirarchy of the church) that the vast majority of the people in the SDA church are just living with the "veil" of the Old Covenant over their eyes because of their unfortunate reading of the Scripture through Ellen White's "inspired commentary" eyes. They just don't see the glorious Good News of the LIVING REALITY of CHRIST being all they need for their total Sabbath Rest.. trusting in Jesus being ENOUGH for their Eternal Security! I know for myself, I must just keep JESUS FIRST. That ASSURANCE in Christ alone can be mystifying to those under legalism, and they will question more. Then, the clarity, conviction, and passion of a point should be made. I pray to have the right "balance" when discussing these eternal issues! As has been mentioned before, Gospel of Grace is the only reason good enough to question Adventism's doctrines; and/or to ever leave. And always leave only to follow JESUS ONLY... God is good! He has blessed us with with everything in Christ! Because of the Cross, we really can have the experience that Paul wrote about in 2 Corninthians 6: "...genuine, yet regarded as impostors; known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything!" Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Valm: I am sure you are already aware of this piece of information, but from a perspective of Reformed theology, you MADE THEIR, MINE AND BILL'S point (I am not shouting) GOD WROTE HIS LAWS IN MEN'S HEARTS, HE HAD TO WRITE HIS LAWS IN MEN'S HEARTS, HE HAD TO TAKE THE INITIATIVE OF WRITING HIS LAWS IN MEN'S HEARTS, exactly because MEN WAS TOTALLY DEPRAVED, DEVOID OF THE GLORY OF GOD, AND NEEDED GOD TO INITIATE THE PROCESS OF CHANGE!. This is the very BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE OF GRACE: GOD TAKING INITIATIVE. JESUS IS THE AUTHOR, AND THE FINISHER OF OUR FAITH! HE BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN US AND WILL COMPLETE IT (I am shouting now, but for joy!). As I said, this forum is and has been an endless resource of RESPECTABLE THINKING, so when and if you have time and wish, please go to some of the discussions we had about Calvinism, Grace, Free will and others... As I said above, you probably know all the about it already. I am humbly reminding you. Thanks! I hope this helps... You're blessed! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Violet |
I started reading another book, White Washed, my I have been reading alot lately. I read the passage that EGW wrote to keep from getting sick you have to stop sinning. CH p37. I came unglued as my mother, the perfect Adventist, died of pancreatic cancer 3 years ago. She did everything right, ate vegetables, was very modest, walked all the time, was not over weight, you get the picture. Anyway I was so mad I e-mailed several people in my former church, and my brother in law basically screaming at them that how a liar she was to say this, and that they were stupid if they believed any of the crap (I used that word) this woman wrote. I guess I am praying the Lord is going to use my mothers death to expose this fraud, if just one person believes and accepts grace because of this I know she would be proud to of been used in this way. | ||
| Billtwisse |
Dear Cindy: Thanks so much for the encouragement and your spirit of joy and gratitude! Gratitude for the grace of God in Jesus Christ! I have really been blessed whenever you have something to say, so we have mutually been lifted up in gospel blessing by hearing each other's testimony. I know that cynical humor is not as straightforward and obvious as forthright humor--but it certainly has its place. Paul was the ultimate practitioner of it when he said: 'I wish those who trouble you would go the whole way and mutilate themselves!' There is no question about the definition of 'mutilate'; it does not mean 'cut themselves off from your fellowship'--as timid expositors would have us believe! Paul was saying they needed to take this 'circumcision thing'--that they were making into such a big deal (i.e., saying it was absolutely essential to eternal life)--a step further. Should his comment be taken literally? Obviously not! He is following absurdity to its logical end; in a ploy of cynical humor. I truly believe that some of the 'circumcision party' got his point, laughed at the top of their lungs, and abandoned the whole idiocy of adding circumcision/Jewish law to the gospel of pure grace from that time onward! :-)) Another subtle example of Paul's cynical humor may be Phil. 3:8. Evangelical teachers with a passion for the very purity that Paul commands in in the same book (Phil. 4:8) insist that Paul would never use a profane word by inspiration. However, I am told by scholars that the Greek word for 'refuse' here is not a koine type word for 'garbage', instead, the best equivalent is a proverbial and slang expression meaning 'the manure of a cow' in our language! That is what Paul was saying his former life in Judaism was! If anyone has further 'light' on this, please let me know--I could be wrong. It fits the context perfectly, though. Dr. Morey is currently live on radio only in Los Angeles, St. Louis, and Detroit. He doesn't do taped messages (on the radio--of course--he sells tapes); only live talk shows. He has an apologetics ministry and engages in debate with false religions and cults, including Adventism (bobmoreylive.com). He has written more books than I can count: classic works on the Trinity, the Atonement, Islam, the nature of the afterlife, and so on. He is the Christian scholar who would be most in agreement with my own perspective (a version of New Covenant Reformed theology), though we have some differences. I hope that his live Sunday evening program will go nationwide at some point in the future. There is a good chance, based on the amount of interest. One of Bob's stories that I heard a few years ago has always stuck in my mind. It was about how Dr. Rodale, founder of 'Prevention', expired (died) on a taping of the Merv Griffin show. It happened even as the words 'I'm gonna live forever' were still on his lips! That is one of the funniest things I have ever heard (I'm sick, aren't I)! Yet it is dead serious--God takes action against those who defy his sovereignty. A famous pianist (Russian, I think) was also on the show and witnessed the event. He had no doubts about God's existence and relevance from that time forward! He was converted to Christ. Another cynical humor story: A Christian jogger approches a frustrated man working under the hood of his disabled vehicle. He hears the words 'xxx xxxx it!' loudly expressed. Immediately, the jogger turns and runs the opposite direction shouting 'flee for your life!, get me out of here now!' The man working on the car immediately runs after the jogger thinking that something is wrong--maybe someone is approaching on the road with a gun or something. When confronting the jogger as to the meaning of his warning and anxiety, the jogger states: "I'm sorry sir, but you just asked God to damn your car. He may very well answer you prayer--and if he does, I don't want to be anywhere near the explosive fireball that is coming!" Men need to think about their idle words. I once heard R.C. Sproul tell the story of a defiant agnostic he encountered who arrogantly and jokingly shouted: "God, if you are up there and interested in this place down here, strike me dead!" He gazed upon the agnostic's dead face the very next day. God is holy. Unbelievers need to realize that he is not to be dishonored with frivolous and stupid irreverence! I'm obviously not preaching to you, Cindy! I'm saying that we need to take note of the fact that God deals seriously with his and our enemies. We should actually be comforted by that reality. He will vindicate himself, the gospel, and all who stake their lives upon it! GA: Many thanks again (a thousand times!) for all of your consistent and constant encouragement and support. I haven't signed onto your website for a while: I'll get on and check what's new very shortly. In conclusion, I do want to clarify one potential misunderstanding about this quotation of mine: Even my liberal friends who left Adventism years ago are still slaves to the doctrine of the God-given ability of man to choose what is right--which fundamental is left over from a lifetime of SDA influence on their thinking. If you believe that idea, you cannot see the gospel. My expression "the God-given ability of man to choose what is right" could be misunderstood. I am referring to the doctrine that ALL MANKIND is given the ability to choose rightly and believe the gospel as a part of creation, not redemption. In other words, all men are created equal and given a measure of faith (the natural ability to believe). I opposed this notion in my studies on the New Covenant. The 'law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus'--written on the hearts of those chosen by God (Rom. 8:2,30)--is the primary fulfillment of Jer. 31:33. The ability to believe is not natural to all men by creative right; it is given by a special act of the Holy Spirit--to specific individuals--in God's appointed time. The statement: 'if you believe that idea, you cannot see the gospel' is extreme and I repent of it. I should have meditated upon this before posting and said something like 'if you believe that idea, it is contrary to the gospel and will ultimately lead you away from it.' --Twisse | ||
| Billtwisse |
Another Item of Clarification: I have often criticized the teaching of Jacob Arminius and the man who was ultimately successful in promoting the Arminian ideaology in terms of a large number of converts, John Wesley. A recent contributor has suggested that I called the whole Wesleyan branch of Christendom heretics. The statements that I made connecting Arminius and Wesley with the same idealogy as the Council of Trent and Thomas Aquinas (which statements I defend, as related to similar views on the autonomy of man--which was the point under discussion); these may be interpreted by some to mean that I was saying Wesley was no different than Aquinas. I do not believe this at all. Arminius and Wesley were influenced by Reformation thought in the arena of grace and justification. They taught the gospel of Christ's imputed righteousness by faith but tried to synthesize it with free-will and revolving-door salvation. However, the language of the gospel is found in almost all post-Reformation writing and teaching. It is almost entirely lacking in writings from the middle millennium (500-1500 A.D.). Of course, nonconformist writings from that period (and even the early centuries) were destroyed by the papacy. Most all of us have believed in one schismatic teaching or another, contrary to the apostles' doctrine, at some point in our experience. Does that make us heretics as persons? No. Many of us believed the true gospel when we were still SDA's, Roman Catholics, or something else. There is a difference between a heretical teaching and a person being a heretic. We are heretics as persons only if we deny that Jesus is the Christ in terms of who he was/is and what he has accomplished for our salvation. --Twisse | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Bill, I agree with your words above: "Many of us believed the true gospel when we were still SDA's, Roman Catholics, or something else. There is a difference between a heretical teaching and a person being a heretic. We are heretics as persons only if we deny that Jesus is the Christ in terms of who he was/is and what he has accomplished for our salvation." I think MANY believe in the Gospel and remain in the Adventist church for social and cultural reasons; and even a sincere belief that they are part of the true remnant called by God to love Jesus and keep His commandments... Their belief is in Jesus and what He accomplished for them at Calvary... Now, I think by continuing to wear Ellen Whites' "glasses", along with the "veil" of the Old Covenant, over their eyes hinders them greatly in seeing the ALL-SUFFICIENCY of CHRIST! He being the SUBSTANCE that all the "Shadows" pointed to! Where I finally realized I could not concientiously remain was when I could not teach the so-called other "testing truths" to newcomers. If I thought they were crazy... how could I honestly tell others they were doctrines to believe in? Unfortunately, you can't just stay with the Gospel Alone in Adventism... To be an honest Adventist, you must agree to the "pillars", which, if I remember right, are "the Sanctuary-1844 message", "the "State-of-the-dead", "the Spirit of Prophecy-EGW", "the Second Coming", and of course, "the Seventh-day Sabbath" as the "final test" for all mankind... And this doesn't even include all the other stuff! Unclean meats...jewelry...food, drink issues, Sabbath work issues, etc., etc. But I do feel God's Spirit leads and convicts individuals at different times and in different ways. Only by focusing on the SUPREMACY of JESUS, was I ever able to SEE that He really was ENOUGH... ...way beyond the regulations of certain observances and time restraints. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Hi Bill, I have a question on this quote: My expression "the God-given ability of man to choose what is right" could be misunderstood. I am referring to the doctrine that ALL MANKIND is given the ability to choose rightly and believe the gospel as a part of creation, not redemption. Well actually I have many questions but will limit them to just the ability to choose what is right. Are there Biblical references that suggest that we are not born with the ability to reason right from wrong? How do we then reason these references to seeing that many non-Christian people every day make choices based on what they believe is right or wrong? Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Cindy, I have a question. Above in your post you are stating some of the "pillars" of being an Adventist. Among them you also refer to the "Second Coming." Let me paste your paragragh: >>"the "State-of-the-dead", "the Spirit of Prophecy-EGW", "the Second Coming", and of course, "the Seventh-day Sabbath" as the "final test" for all mankind...<< Maybe I'm reading your post wrong but you do believe that Jesus will come again, don't you? I certainly do and just needed some verification as to your meaning on the above. God Bless you always, your sister in our Lord Jesus, DtB |
