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Graceambassador
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valm: (with a note to the Tinkers in the end)
Since this is a public forum, PLEASE, allow my intrusion.

There is NO particular basis in the Holy Writ to prove that God "LOVES EVERYONE" WITHOUT EXCEPTION, but there is IRREFUTABLE EIVIDENCE that GOD LOVES EVERYONE WITHOUT DISTINCTION

TRADITION, which in my ministry is often spelled TR-ADDITION, because that is what it is, has taught that scriptures where the word "WORLD" appears in relation to God's Love, indicate that GOD LOVES AND HAS LOVED EVERYBODY THAT EVER EXISTED IN THE WORLD, and that the word "ALL" in the Bible means "ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION". In that sense, scriptures that state that God wants "all" to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth are interpreted as though God wants (but is obviously frustrated in his desire) ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.

I have plenty of studies in this forum about the various meanings of the word "salvation" in the Bible (there is ETERNAL SALVATION that belongs to God alone, and TEMPORAL SALVATION, which is SALVATION FROM AN IMMINENT TRAGEDY) which can help one to distinguish which is what. More importantly, I have many studies on the MEANING OF THE WORD "ALL" in the New Testament and also the the ILOGICAL AND SOMETIMES IFANTILE WAY THAT SOME PEOPLE INTERPRET SCRIPTURES SUCH AS "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD".

As for the GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD one, which I believe to be the most frequently misquoted, I can say that the same Jesus that said that God loves the world in John 3:16 said in John 17 that "He will not pray for the world..." making Jesus a heretic because he would not pray for those whom God loves, and also he said of US His disciples that "we are not of the world". This excludes us from the love of God because God loves the world and we are not OF IT!

Also I have many of this studies published as answers to questions of writers in my own Web Sites.
Well, I beg you to understand that I think it is highly improper for me to advertise my Cyber Bible Studies in my own Web Sites here int the FAF forum without permission, and also other Web Sites that have the same Biblical perspective that I do, but if you wish, I can privately send you the URL if you request it at

Grace Ambassador

I currently have one Web site going for about 3 years now and I am developing another with a Bible course called A.D.V.A.N.C.E. which stands for AVANCED DIRECTIVES, VISIONS, APPLICATIONS (and) NOTIONS (of) CHRISTIAN EXCELLENCE the address I give you above is of the developing one but the address itself is totally functional.

I just do not want to repeat, or cut and past the studies here...

Valm, again, PLEASE, forgive me for my intrusion, but this issue is my passion!
The intention is NOT to shove it down people's throats. It is just to bring a little bit of more information on the subject. Thanks for understanding!

Bottom line here is: THE FACT THAT GOD LOVES ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION AND NOT WITHOUT EXCEPTION DOES NOT AFFECT MY UNDERSTANDING AND TOTAL STATE OF AWE FOR GOD'S LOVE. ALL OF US WERE SINNERS AND COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE CHOSEN GOD. BUT GOD IN HIS IMMENSE LOVE, IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY AND ETERNAL KNOWLEDGE DECIDED TO "LOVE SOME AND DESPISE OTHERS", AS BILL POINTED OUT ABOVE. HIS LOVE IS STILL EVERY THING WE BELIEVE IT IS!

A NOTE TO THE TINKERS: IF THE ADVERTISEMENT ABOVE IS INAPPROPRIATE, DO NOT HESITATE IN REBUKING ME PUBLICLY.

Grace Ambassador
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear GA,

This is a public forum and I would hope that you would feel welcome to come right on in and converse.

Dear GA and Bill,

I just can not agree with you.

I have started my rereading of these texts with Mark 4: 11 and 12.

The first thing I find that is note worthy is that Jesus is quoting Isaiah. Therefore, I must go back to Isaiah to find the original context in which this was said, and hence the "larger picture" of what Jesus was saying. I imagine that this larger picture was readily apparent to the disciples. But even that is an assumption on my part.

In Isaiah 6 Isaiah is atoned from his sins and commissioned by God to speak to his people and God tells Isaiah to say these very words.

Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing but never perceiving. Make the heart of this people calloused make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.

Pretty hard words I agree. And Isaiah asks, "For how long, O Lord?

And God answers, "Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant......."

At the end of this quote God gives some wonderful hope in the words: But as the terebinth and oak leave stumps when they are cut down, so the holy seed will be the stump in the land Isn't there somewhere a wonderful text about a shoot coming out from a stump. And doesn't this shoot represent Jesus? I will have to look for that one later.

I remembered immediately at a conference on family and child compliance to medical directives it was once stated that the families and children who went into crisis with their medical condition were much more likely to comply than those who were diagnosed early without the fear of loosing their child!

My interpretation, things have to get bad enough for people to really see how bad they are and their need for a Saviour.

I found the introductory notes in my study Bible helpful and will quote this one small paragraph:

The Lord's kingdom on earth, with its righteous Ruler and his righteous subjects, is the goal toward which the book of Isaiah steadily moves. The restored earth and the restored people will then conform to the divine ideal, and all will result in the praise and glory of the Holy One of Israel for what he has accomplished

So part one of my thoughts on Mark 4: 11 and 12 is that one has to have an understanding of Isaiah to understand what Jesus was saying. I have alot of study to do on that myself!! I will post another message on my further thoughts......

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All,

Here is part two on my thoughts of Mark 4:11,12.

Even to Jesus' twelve disciples he said, "Don't you understand this parable?" This is to the twelve that he had said a few verses earlier that the secret of the kingdom had been given to them.

Could have Jesus been using a bit of irony? I do not know, certainly a possibility in light that he just told these twelve they had the secret.

Right after he explains his parable he gives them the parable of putting the lamp on a stand rather than hiding it.

Then he says, For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open This text would seem rather inconsistent with Bill'sinterpretation of Mark 4: 11,12 The Lord spoke in parables, not to make his message easier to understand (a common misconception), but to hide the truth from those who were not given the kingdom. Otherwise, the opposite of what God wants might occur: they might turn and be forgiven!

I have been enjoying Eugene Peterson's translation of the New Testement. And will qoute his opinion on the matter. I say his opinion as I do not read this as otherwise. I will add that he is considered a respected Bible Scholar and on that merit his word's are worth consideration. This is his take on Mark 4:11.12 and parts of the remainder of the chapter.

"You've been given insight into God's kingdom--you know how it works. But to those who can't see it yet, everything comes in stories, creating readiness, nudging them toward receptive insight. These are people--"Whose eyes are open but don't see a thing, Whose ears are open but don't understand a word, Who avoid making an about face and getting forgiven." He continued, "do you see how this story works? All my stories work this way. ......Jesus went on: "Does anyone bring a lamp home and put it under a washtub or beneath the bed? Don't you put it up on a table or on the mantle? We're not keeping secrets, we're telling them; we're not hiding things, we're bringing them out into the open.

My conclusion is that these texts do not indicate a predestination of certain people to salvation. I believe that Jesus may have used the quote from Isaiah to refer to himself as the hope for our salvation. I believe when following through the reading from Mark that Jesus clearly confirms that his goal is not to make light hidden but known to all.

I won't be getting to the texts in Romans today but have them jotted down and will as I read the book of Romans I am on chapter 5 and slowly working my way......

Have a wonderful day all.

Valerie
Graceambassador
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valm:

Note that the statement of Isaiah affirms the very thing we're discussing:
"THEY NEEDED THE SHOOT, THAT REPRESENT JESUS, TO COME SO THEY COULD UNDERSTAND!".

I fully and comfortably understand why you would disagree with me. Many evil things have been done with what is called today Calvinism specially because it became a "denomination" rather than a method of Bible Study. This is the method I chose to study the Bible since IT DOES MAKE SENSE AND IT IS LOGICAL! This is also against TR-ADDITION that claims that things in the "gospel" (small "g") cannot be understood logically. I say they can and often times God, through the prophets and later through Jesus used logic to explain spiritual things.

Your statement:
My interpretation, things have to get bad enough for people to really see how bad they are and their need for a Saviour.
is perfectly correct in the llight of the Calvinist Bible study method. Sometimes God lets His elect to go through a tragedy in order for them to understand their need for Jesus.
God used this "tragedy" method with the ELECTED JEWS. There are 13 cycles of peace-sin-war-tragedy-repentance-peace in the book of Judges. He uses the same METHOD with his ELECTED PEOPLE today. I'd say however that this is NOT the only method God attracts the ELECT TO Jesus since now we HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, who will convince the ELECT of his need for Jesus.

Thank you for welcoming to the discussion! I'd like to take this exchange to its original core question: "DOES GOD LOVE, AND HAS LOVED EVERY MAN THAT EVER LIVED WITHOUT EXCEPTION?". As I said above, there is no evidence in the Bible that He did. Or else there is a number of questions that the Bible has no answer for and this is unacceptable, and the unbeliever has the right of questioning why God allowed so much misery, war and disgrace in the OT and still allows it today. An example of that is to command his people to destroy every living thing in the enemy camp, including babies and animals. Another question such as these is why wouod God allow Samuel, His prophet, to cut a man to pieces in front of the people just because of a routine and well intended act of disobedience. THERE IS, HOWEVER, IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT HE LOVES EVERYONE WITHOUT DISTINCTION.

REMEMBER THAT IF WE SAY THAT WE WOULD NOT ALLOW OUR CHILDREN TO SUFFER (I WOULDN'T) ETERNALLY JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE REBELLIOUS;

BUT RATHER, WE WOULD DO ANYTHING FOR THEM TO BE "SAVED";

BUT WOULD NOT DO THE SAME FOR OUR NEIGHBOR'S CHILDREN;

AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE SAY THAT GOD LOVES EVERYBODY;

BUT ALLOWS THEM TO DIE WITHOUT SALVATION JUST BECAUSE THEY CHOSE TO DIE IN SUCH A WAY;

AND THAT HE HAS NO RIGHT TO CHOOSE HIS OWN TO SAVE ALLEGING THAT SUCH SELECTIVE LOVE WOULD NOT BE LOVE:


THEN...

WE ARE PROCLAIMING OURSELVES TO BE BETTER THAN GOD;

WE ARE SAYING THAT OUR LOVE IS BETTER AND MORE PERFECT THAN GOD'S LOVE;

AND THAT WE DISPENSE OUR LOVE MORE WISELY THAN GOD DISPENSES HIS;

WE ARE STATING THAT WE HAVE MORE RIGHTS THAN GOD TO CHOOSE WHOM WE HELP;

AND WE ARE SAYING THAT GOD DOES THE VERY OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE WOULD DO...


This is the principle of self-deification: I am better than God. (NOT THAT YOU ARE SAYING THAT, BUT TRA-ADDITION HAS PREACHED EXACTLY THAT WITHOUT MENTIONING THE WORDS SELF-DEIFICATION".

I've got to go now, but I will be more than willing to answer any questions anyone may have! This is my favorite subject: TR-ADDITION VERSUS BIBLICAL TEACHING.

Grace Ambassador
Lydell
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We can tell.

How wonderful for you that you are saved. And the guy next door? Oh well, if God wants Him saved He will save Him. If He doesn't? Well, why should I care if he goes to hell. Right?
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear GA,

That is certainly your opinion. And I emphasize your opinion.

How can you be SO FORSURE that your opinion is correct? How can you be certain that YOU are among "God's select"?

I certainly could not take such an arrogant stance if indeed there was a select which were choosen by God. How can one know? How can one be secure? How can one go BOLDLY to the throne of GRACE?

GA the thing that burns my bottom the most about this predestination theory is that it smacks with very arrogance that I ran away from in Adventism.

Please listen to your quote: I fully and comfortably understand why you would disagree with me. Many evil things have been done with what is called today Calvinism specially because it became a "denomination" rather than a method of Bible Study. Are you suggesting to me that my way of thinking is evil?

To me your method does not make sense and it is not logical. To say on one hand that God is LOVE and on the other hand say he would deny his children Salvation that he would give to a select group of his children, defies logic.

I may not now or ever understand all of the things that are in the Bible, but I can not just read a text and say, "SEE it says this or that." The text must be placed in the setting of the time and the overall message of the particular book it is in. I find on this particular example Mark 4:11,12 there is much more that meets the eye of those two texts. It would be doing a grave diservice to stop there. It would be doing a grave disservice to not consider many possibilities.

My other deep concern in this discussion is the label of TR-ADDITION VERSUS BIBLICAL TEACHING. Those are your labels assigned. You give your school of thought the Biblical Teaching and others the TR-ADDITION label. Is that fair? Do not be so sure of yourself. It certainly does not give any type of respect or consideration of what others have to say in the discussion.

I am frank. And what I see here is the same MO that I would get from an SDA. They believe their teaching is Biblical also. And they believe that others are heresy. They come to the table of discussion not really to discuss, but to convince others of their point of view. They merely wait their turn to speak without careful consideration of the possibility that the person they are speaking with could render any truth to them.

Now GA if I am misreading you I apologize. But it sounds like you truly believe that some are predestined and some are not. And if that is your belief, stated as such. But give others the respect of not asigning labels of superiority to your opinion.

Valerie
Graceambassador
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valm:
Please read it entirely.
The answer to your question:
Please listen to your quote: I fully and comfortably understand why you would disagree with me. Many evil things have been done with what is called today Calvinism specially because it became a "denomination" rather than a method of Bible Study. Are you suggesting to me that my way of thinking is evil?

No! I said that many evil things have been done in the name of Calvinism and people who judge Calvinism arrogant and evil have a right to do so.
I never said, nor I would say or will say that your thinking is evl!

As to comparing Calvinism with the methods used in Adventism, as one WHO HAS NEVER BEEN AN ADVENTIST BUT ALWAYS CONTENTED WITH AS A CULT, I can tell you FOR SURE, that I do not believe that you are familiar with Calvin's nor reformed teachings. That is not to say that you have NOT made GREAT POINTS in ALL YOUR POSTS!

I said many times and will repeat it:
GRACE DOES NOT DEMAND YOU OR ME TO BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME.

As to your question:

How can you be SO FOR SURE that your opinion is correct? How can you be certain that YOU are among "God's select"?

The only way I know I am an ELECT and you ARE ONE AS WELL is the witness of the Holy Spirit that we are children of God. WE ARE SAVED, ARE WE NOT?
The only way that I can know that what I believe is according to the Bible is the Bible itself. I am an old fashion Christian who believes that the Bible is self sufficient to defend itself.

Lydell:

I explained to you before in another discussion that I do care if the other person goes to hell or not. But as for God, Jesus said that "my sheep will hear my voice". It does not depend on me nor my preaching neither in the other fellow's free will. When we discussed this in the past you stated to me and I believe you (if it matters) that you are an evangelist in every possible way we can, thus making you and I "for Christ and His cause". Christ Himself said: Who is not for me is against me". On this basis, it is not SMART ON MY PART, to be arguing with one who is in the same side asI am. I'd rather pray for her success (your success).

VALM AGAIN:

It is very hard for ALL OF US to deal with scriptures that state that "we are born according NOT OF FLESH AND BLOOD, NOR THE WILL OF MAN, BUT OF GOD...(John 1) and that these people are the ones who are given power to become the CHILDREN OF GOD, and not just everybody. Of course, you Valm, prefer to call EVERYBODY CHILDREN OF GOD. But I do not think this is supported in Scriptures. It is hard to read scriptures which state that those who are Christ's were given to Him by God... It is hard to read scriptures where it says that many will state how religious they were and Christ will tell them that "he never knew them". (How Christ, who is the all-knowing God say such a thing that he did not know someone, specially at the judgement seat where there is nothing else to be fulfilled about Him?)
It is even hard to read so many words such as "us" and "them" in the epistles of Paul and of John, the love disciple, who believes that backsliders were never saved anyway, and that they were never "of us". John 2:19 in context.
It is hard to hear that "the wicked is estranged from the womb" as stated in Psalm 58.
I can give more scriptures and place them in context with the whole Bible account. But, then, I would be called ARROGANT, and attempting to impose my beliefs on others... Why even try?

Let's love each other with our own differences. As I one day believed as you do, but finally saw the confusion of the free-will doctrine, which IS WHAT BRINGS ABOUT PEOPLE SUCH AS ELLEN G., and others, I was led by the Spirit to read the scriptures differently. I risked my entire ministry for changing. After a long period of being full time in the ministry, now, because of what I believe, I am shunned. Sounds familiar?

For about 1600 years, until the period where a fellow by the name of Jacob Arminius came up with this "free will" doctrine, MOST of the Chruch Fathers believed what I am defending today. Unfortunately, the church in America, in need for popularity and money embraced Arminius teachings since it was more user friendly and favored the business aspect of "churches". Sadly, missionaries from America spread the same doctrine all over the world. But God is changing it!

Again, there is no intention here to offend anyone.

I believe that some are predestined and some are not predestined because that is what the Bible, in FULL CONTEXT, teaches. I would like to see some scriptures that prove me wrong. I have debated theologians from every side of the issue. They come up with the "love is then not love" argument into the calling reformed Christianity "arrogant". But what they cannot come up with is with a logical body of Scriptures to prove their point that:

- separeates the concept of the elect Jews and the scriptures written to them from the "depraved sinner". The two entities cannot and are not to be confused.

- separates Salvation by Grace with salvation by works, which include "man choosing to be saved".

- differenciates Bible characters that never lost their "sonship" or "sheep of His pasture" state even when backsliding with the "depraved sinner".

- disproves the fact that God calls His elect that are unconverted today "sheep gone astray" and the unelected "goats" whom Christ never knew.

This has been a discussion that is 6 centuries old. Unfortunately, it will not be resolved here I understand.

Note that I use words such as "I understand" "I agree with this point..." and others. Thus, to say that I am somehow not assigning respect for other's beliefs is incorrect. But I UNDERSTAND THIS AS WELL!. If the phrase below helps, please use it of me to everybody else:

I MUST DECREASE SO THAT YOU MAY INCREASE!

Before God, there is no sarcasm here!

Valm: a personal free and unsolicited advice:
You say:
And what I see here is the same MO that I would get from an SDA

Do not let your ADVENTISMPHOBIA control your emotions and get in the way of fair argument and discussion. I've noticed, and said it in this forum a long time ago: SOME HERE HAVE LEFT ADVENTISM, BUT ADVENTISM HAS NOT LEFT THEM, SINCE THEY SEE ITS GHOST ALL OVER, EVERYWHERE AND IN EVERYTHING PEOPLE SAY.

I do apologize for being insensitive and having believed that everybody here reads what I write. Therefore, I wrote about TR-ADDITION because I thought that people, and you Valm, knew what I was speaking about. Here is some example so you be aware of what I call TR-ADDITION:

Sabbath worship FOR SALVATION
FREE WILL (I know now you do not agree with this one)
If you do not tithe you're a thief and will go to hell even if you think you're saved...
If you do not get to be baptized in our "church" you will go to hell... etc..

Perhaps no different, with rare exceptions, of what you believe.

In closing, I will be EAGERLY waiting for some scriptures that PROVE above and beyond shadow of doubt the following:

GOD LOVES EVERYBODY AND LOVED EVERYONE THAT EVER LIVED
EVERYBODY IS A CHILDREN OF GOD
EVERYBODY WILL BE SAVED
THOU SHALT ACCEPT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND PRAY THE SINNER'S PRAYER REPEATING AFTER THE EVANGELIST'S VOICE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.
IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE LORD JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOR IN AN ACT OF FREE WILL, YOU WILL NOT HAVE A CHANCE. IF YOU DIE WITHOUT DOING IT, GOD IS FRUSTRATED. HE LOSES BUT YOU LOSE AS WELL AND THE DEVIL WINS!
MAN HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE A WILL, AND GOD HAS TO RESPECT THIS WILL. BUT GOD HAS NO RIGHT TO HAVE A WILL AND SAVE THOSE WHOM HE WANTS TO SAVE AND AS ROMANS 9 STATES, BLESS SOME AND DESPISE OTHERS.
SO, BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE, MY WILL IS SOVEREIGN BUT NOT GOD'S.
I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME AND IN ORDER TO COME BY ME YOU HAVE TO HEAR A PREACHER AND ACCEPT ME AS YOUR SAVIOR.
THE WORLD OF JOHN 3:16 MEANS EVERYBODY THAT EVER LIVED AND "WHOSOEVER BELIVETH" IS A "DEAL" AND NOT A STATEMENT OF A FACT.

I could ask for more, but, one or more scriptures on the above, in context with the whole Bible, would suffice. Please, send me scriptures that state the above so I can get converted!
Just a reminder: It has been tried before. It was called the Catholic Church. Then came the Reformers...

Without such scriptures, exegeted correctly, which I am sure there is no doubt you are ALL CAPABLE OF DOING, I do not believe you would change my position. (Before the Lord, there is no sarcasm here, please, drop the PRESUMED over sensitive and victimization complex left by adventism and take my words for its face value. THERE IS DELIVERANCE FOR THAT IN CHRIST!)

IT IS ALL BY GRACE! GRACE ALONE! SOLA GRACIA! Not by works (INCLUDING THE WORKS OF MAN'S WILL), lest anyone should boast.
SALVATION BELONGS TO THE LORD!

Grace Ambassador
Lydell
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie, you have stated my thoughts exactly.
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear GA,

I expounded on Mark 4: 11 and 12 this morning and despite my deriving a different meaning than what Bill gave, and I think you believe, you have asked me to come back and give you one text. So what would be the point?

In my mind, you have not given one text correctly interpreted to this matter. Remember lets put that text in the total context of the message.

I could give you John 3:16 but you would have a different interpretation of God loving the world,what is meant by the world, who the whosoever is, and what constitutes believing.

If I quoted Ephesians 1:13 you would say that the text is qualified to those who God allows to understand the Gospel of Salvation.

If I gave you Hebrews 7:25 you might tell me that that God has already chosen them who will come unto him by Christ. And that Christ ever liveth tomake intercession for only a few.

So what's the point? And what is the point for us to Go unto all nations...... if God has it already predetermined? Where is the love in being just a choosen pawn? Is this like an arranged marraige? I do not go much for arranged marraiges.

You are certainly correct that I do not know much about Calvinism, my husband gave me a quick lesson on that earlier. But I am not so interested in Calvinism except from a historical perspective. I am interested in knowing who God is.

So I will respectfully disagree and discontinue this conversation. I will close to say that if I ever come to the point of believing that to follow Jesus and accept his gift to me is based on salvation for an elect few and that choice is not involved whatsoever, I will have to seek another faith system.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear GA

With regards to your response to me on this part of a quote from me And what I see here is the same MO that I would get from an SDA

You said:Do not let your ADVENTISMPHOBIA control your emotions and get in the way of fair argument and discussion. I've noticed, and said it in this forum a long time ago: SOME HERE HAVE LEFT ADVENTISM, BUT ADVENTISM HAS NOT LEFT THEM, SINCE THEY SEE ITS GHOST ALL OVER, EVERYWHERE AND IN EVERYTHING PEOPLE SAY.

Let's go back and read my entire quote, not just a portion of it which would give the wrong impression: I am frank. And what I see here is the same MO that I would get from an SDA. They believe their teaching is Biblical also. And they believe that others are heresy. They come to the table of discussion not really to discuss, but to convince others of their point of view. They merely wait their turn to speak without careful consideration of the possibility that the person they are speaking with could render any truth to them.

I do not have Adventismphobia. Again a label. What I do have is a complete distaste for belief systems that are arrogant and disrespectful of others. What I do have is a passion to stand up against what I view as disfuntional interactions with others.

The doctrine you propose is not remotely Adventist. That is not what I am speaking of. It is the attitude you deliver your message. It is one in which you believe you have superior views and authority over who you are speaking with. It is coming to the discussion with the presumption that your role is only to enlighten others rather than to have a mutual exchange of ideas which may bring further enlightenment to you.

Do not take this as me trying to be offensive, but since I gather you have not been an SDA, you wouldn't understand. There is much more to being an SDA than just the doctrine. The doctrine gives rise to a whole set or pattern of dysfunctional behaviors that are not necessarily unique to Adventism. And this attitude of arrogance and superiority is a big part of it.

The irony of it is that I have often said that some have left Adventism but Adventism has not left them. But when I said it I refered to the dysfunctional attitudes (not necessarily unique to Adventism but a big part of it) were not put away with. It is my personal belief that if insight into these attitudes and behaviours are not attended to, a person might leave Adventism and end up somewhere with a different doctrine, not necessarily a true doctrine, with the same illness....

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,

Thank you for your sentence of encouragement. Sometimes, I wonder if I am the only one out here who thinks in this way. Sometimes I wonder if I have come to the wrong forum for support.

Valerie
Graceambassador
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valm:
Apparently my convictions are not being a help to both of us. By your words to Lydell, you feel that you are not beng supported in this forum.

I for one beg God's forgiveness for being in any way shape or form the reason for you to feel so alone.

I really thought I was exchanging ideas. You will not find in my post words such as "arrogant" or you appear to be "arrogant" or you "act as though you are superior to others". I challenge anyone to find such words in MY POSTS. However, I received such words FREQUENTLY in this Forum. Perhaps I should do as Samuel: "Speak my Lord, thy servant heareth..."

You are right! There is no reason for us to play this hostile Biblical ping pong.

If there is any way that I can make you feel supported, and IF I HAVE THE CHANCE TO SUPPORT YOU IN THAT WHICH YOU NEED SUPPORT, please, let me know!

I believe the words of Jesus that if we offend one of His little ones we are guilty of judgement! You are one of His GREAT ONES, and I do not want to be offensive to you!

I believed that using my coined phrase ADVENTISMPHOBIA, I was dealing with the root of your need for support. I was mistaken!

Please, let me know if there is anything that this pitful (for some pit bull, ha!ha!ha!) servant of God that can help you with...

With God's certainty that there is nothing here so broken that cannot be mended, your BROTHER in Christ,
Milton Almeida

Grace Ambassador
Valm
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GA

With all respect, with a belief system of predestination, how can you be certain that I am one of God's children or not? And if I am not what would be the point in even bothering? If I had that belief system, I couldn't even determine if I was. And I wouldn't wish to judge if others were or not.

What is the point anyway if it is all figured out already? It seems so futile to me.

This is not intended to be mean. I think our belief systems are so disparate that you could not support me. But I am touched that you would even offer.

God Bless you GA.

Valerie
Graceambassador
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valm:
You totally misunderstand the doctrine of predestination because of what CALVINISTS did to the world of evangelism. I SAID BEFORE THAT I DO UNDERSTAND THAT AND I JOIN YOU IN COMDEMN SUCH BEHAVIOR.
Using your tactis I could say that you are accusing me of being against evengelism but I will not. I took my fiber today!

If you have given me the honor of reading my posts you will see that I believe in Evangelism precisely because I believe that God will save His own!

I know that you are a child of God because no "child of the devil" could possibly write the things that you write. The devil can disguise himself into an angel of light, but it does not last very long. Besides, God has granted the Church the gifts of the Spirt. He also told us to prove the spirits whether they be of God. You have passed all tests. Okay? If I apply the gift of discernment of spirits, I can say that you do not strike me as a "depraved unelect" or to use Paul's terms, "one given to all kinds of uncleanness to whom God gave a reprobate mind..."
Unless you volunteer some information I do not possess, I count you as a child of God. Elected (chosen= elegeo in the Greek) before the foundation of the world, as in Ephesians 1.

Again, when you say that GO TO ALL NATIONS is futile because of predestination, you demonstrate that you have been in contact with a different crowd.(I am not calling you ignorant whereas you called me "arrogant".) I SINCERELY INVITE YOU AND YOUR FAMILY to go with me to the missionary field in the next trip and you will see many coming to the Lord, RECEIVING CHRIST and BEING ACCEPTED BY HIM, because of God's provision. This also can be your opportunity to "go to the Nations".

I am not sad that you consider me out of those who can support you.
But that's my punishment for participating in foruns over the Internet. I will not give you my resume here, but I have not found anyone yet, from a mild case of "hurt-by-religion" to a severe case of demon possession that I could not support and help with God's blessing. But your words are such that you are beyond my reach.
I praise God that at least in three different countries, people do not feel the same way you do.

No problem. It does not hurt the fact that you feel that my system of beliefs will not help you and because of it I CAN'T HELP YOU!

What disturbs me is that I am here in this forum, discussing with people who find me arrogant, and that at the same time offereing help to people who think that I cannot help, exchanging ideas with people who have been hurt by the very thing I want to deffend and that judge me as one who despises evangelism... And they do not even know me! They call me "arrogant" and do not even give me the benefit of the doubt! Isn't Christianity great?

I found more receptivenss among the Muslins, even the Sheite Muslins, who would chop my head off if I would witness to them. So far, my head is perfectly in place!

What really saddens me is my total waste of God's time!
Hey, Valm, again, my apologies for being so offensive to you, but, as you said, with all due respect, not even in graciousness you could finish your post with an intellectual statement.

You say:

I think our belief systems are so disparate that you could not support me.

Have I attacked your systems of beliefs? Is calling "FREE WILL DOCTRINE" TR-ADDITION so offensive to you? Carnality sometimes makes us overly sensitive! Have I disclosed to you that for many theologians "FREE WILL" is pure HERESY?
No! I have not attacked you or or systems of beliefs! Neither have I used the words that you are using against me!

Nothing like exposure to demonstrate to people who is really labeling and arrogant here!

You always will have the option of not reading my posts. They will remain coming, but now, only when I feel the Lord is leading me to some fruitful mind and some open spirit, even if there is disagreement.
The invitation is open, though: Want to go do some Evangelism with me in South America? Great people, great place, great food, great missionary-vacation mix of a trip! You'll love it! Next trip July-2001!
God bless you as well!

Milton Almeida
Grace Ambassador
Lori
Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Valerie,

One thing that we have to remember and I think when I state this it will be in agreement with what you are saying:

The Sovereignty of God and the free-will of man Co-exist by Divine command.

The Bible says that we (believers) are elected. This statement applies only to believers!! The Bible never says that anyone is "elected" or "predestined" for hell.

I think this is what you are also saying.

God so loved the world-means he loved the whole world, but the whole world has not CHOSEN to love him.

Christ died for the sins of all-but all have not CHOSEN to believe in this.

Those who go to hell will go there by their own CHOICE-they will go to hell because they reject the only means of getting there, Believing in Christ.

God willed for everyone to be saved. There is only one thing that hinders the will of God for anyones life (even believers). Our free will!!

And, I know that there are those of you out there that don't believe we really have a free will. I know that you believe that although we appear to make decisions we really don't because we are in a fixed plan that can not be changed.


I have to stop for now...I'll have to add to this later.

Lori
Valm
Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear GA,

There is nothing more I would love to do than go on a missionary trip. But presently I am raising two boys. Catch up with me in about 10 years and I would seriously consider it. That is if I am not doing a missionary tour with a dentist and his wife who live in the area.

It is not that I wish anyone to tell me that I am saved or not or a child of God or not. It is that I find the whole idea of people who are predestined for salvation or damnation so horrific that I can not even express it. I take such a strongly defensive approach to this because I see it as just maddening and defamatory to who I believe God is.

I am sorry about my use of the word arrogant. But for me to claim that I am God's chosen child while believing that others are not smacks of arrogance to me.

I read Romans 6,7, and 8 before going out with my husband tonight. I am just bushed but I have alot to say when I have some time tomorrow.

Sweet dreams all.


Valerie
Lydell
Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 5:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hold it Valerie, let's get something straight right now. Girl, you ARE in the middle of a mission field by virtue of raising those two boys. And it is a tougher mission field than any you will find "out there" simply because those boys have very day to observe your words in action.

Don't ever forget it. Don't ever let anyone tell you different. Or demean you in any way, I know the messages the world sends to moms.

Your sons came into this world sinners, just as we all did. You have the great privilege and honor of teaching them every day about their loving Saviour. In every word you speak to them thru your day, every Bible story you read them, every song they hear you sing, by the example of your life, you and your hubby are teaching them about a loving Heavenly Father. You are planting seeds continuously. You are preparing the way for those boys to be able to easily make their own choice some day.

And that's what I see our loving Father doing in everyone's life. He has predestined that the method of salvation is that those who believe will be saved. He already knows who it will be, but He still allows us the freedom to choose. ALL of us the freedom to choose. Wouldn't you have been some parent to raise up your boys by telling only them, "sorry guys, only one of you gets a ticket to heaven. The other gets to fry."

Gee, wouldn't you love for one of these folks to be your next door neighbor when you have an unsaved family member who dies. Gee, what comforting words they can offer, "oh well, sorry, but you know, God always intended for Him to be unsaved, so don't let it bother you a bit." No thanks! I'll take the honest words of those who understand who my God is, "you can rest assured that God was reaching out to them, that His invitation was open to them until their last concious thought." Yes! That's the kind of God we serve! A God of incredible mercy.

The reason you find this whole warped teaching of "predestination" horrific is that it is a blatant lie about the character of your loving heavenly Father. And you can't help but be stirred with strong feelings when someone lies about your Dad.
Valm
Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 7:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell,

Your cut to the chase message left me with a smile on my face. Thank you. Thank you.

Those boys are my mission field!! And what an exhausting mission field they can be.

I once said on this line, that I learned more about God from giving birth, breast feeding and raising these two lads than the Bible ever could have taught me at the time I began the parenting journey. I also learned alot in the loss of two pregnancies each one before the pregnancy of the two I have been given. Somewhere there is a text where God asks Israel, "How can I give thee up?" And I feel I have a glimpse of what that means now.

Blessings to your day Lydell.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello GA and everyone else.

I am adding another text to John 3 16 and the others I gave before.

Romans 6:10 The death he died he died to sin once for ALL but the life he lives, he lives to God

ALL is not a "pick and choose" word in my opinion.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 7:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello All,

This is my little and humble take on Romans 8: 28-30.

Scripture in Blue and my opinion in green.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him who have been called according to his purpose. All who love him have been called according to his purpose.

For those God foreknew he foreknew everyone who has ever existedhe also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son he has predestined all of us as he knew all of us

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified, those he justified, he also glorified. God follows through with what he began in all of us

Have a great morning all, I have fingers to warm up on a organ at church, gotta run.

Valerie

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