| Author | Message | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Valm: If it would not be for the fact that you packed me with all the mean spirited and evangelism haters Calvinists of the past, I would say that we have the same form of beliefs. Let's see what you just wrote above: Romans 8:28-30 vs 30 to shorten: God: predestined, called the predestined, justified the predestined and glorified the predestined. There are two basic distinctions in our beliefs" 1 - I blieve because the Bible tells me so that this process happened beforehand, before the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, AS PAUL SAYS. 2 - I believe, because the Bible tells me so that this is NOT FOR EVERYBODY, and please do not flip, read it ALL you may be surprised... Here is some biblical reasoning: In Acts 13:46-48 it says that those ...who were ordained to be saved, were saved... The word ordained in the Greek is the same as appointed beforehand. In 1 Peter 2:8-9 it says that the cornerstone was rejected by the disobedient and that they were "...appointed to do so..." Same word used in Acts 13:46-48 Basically these are the differences we have. Now, let me speak about who I think will be saved and YOU WILL BE SURPRISED, IF NOT EMBARRASSED FOR THINKING THAT I WAS SOMEHOW AN ELITIST THAT BELIEVED THAT I AM CALLED AND OTHERS ARE NOT: Because of ELECTION, (I'D RATHER USE THIS WORD THAN PREDESTINATION), I believe that we should PREACH TO EVERYONE. Everyone will NOT BE SAVED, I hope you agree that some will go to hell, but I should preach to everyone because Jesus said My sheep shall hear my voice. Let me tell who IS THE ELITIST AND BELIEVES THAT PEOPLE ARE PRESUMABLY DOOMED: People who say; "Well, if my neighbor is going to hell, I should say, forget it, God will save him anyway if He wishes..." HOW CAN THESE PEOPLE KNOW THAT THIS PERSON IS GOING TO HELL. HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT IF IT IS NOT FOR THEIR TESTIMONY AND WITNESS THEY WILL NEVER BE SAVED! This is the religious attitude that Christ so vehemently opposed and preached agaisnt! I believe that BECAUSE OF ELECTION ANYONE CAN BE POTENTIALLY AND ULTIMATELY SAVED. I EXPLAIN: GOD NEVER NEEDED A PREACHER TO SAVE ANYONE! THERE ARE EXAMPLES IN THE BIBLE OF PEOPLE WHO GOT SAVED WITHOUT A PREACHER, PAUL IS ONE THAT COMES TO MIND! GOD HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT AS THE SUPREME PREACHER TO PREACH TO WHOM HE DESIRES! SO TO SAY THAT SOMEONE IS GOING TO HELL, IS BASED SOLELY UPON THE APPEARAMCE AND INSTATANEOUS EVALUATION OF THE ONE WHO IS JUDGING THEM. GOD CAN SAVE THEM ANYTIME. ANYWHERE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! BECAUSE OF ELECTION, GOD CAN SAVE A MAN BEHIND THE BAMBOO CURTAIN, THAT NEVER HEARD THE NAME OF CHRIST. GOD CAN USE AND HE DID IN THE PAST THE HOLY SPIRIT TO SPEAK WITH THAT MAN! BECAUSE OF ELECTION, GOD CAN REACH INTO A MENTAL INSTTITUTION AND SAVE PEOPLE WHOSE MIND IS SO POOR THAT THEY HAVE NO CHANCE TO HEAR A PREACHER OR UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL. BECAUSE OF ELECTION, I BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN GO INTO THE MIND OF AN OLD PERSON SO AFFLICTED BY ALZHEIMERS THAT HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND OR REMEMBER THE THE SIMPLEST OF ALL BIBLE VERSES. I BELIEVE THAT, MOST CHRISTIANS WILL DOOM THEM TO HELL FASTER THAN I CAN SAY "HALLELLUYAH". BECAUSE OF ELECTION, I BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN SAVE A HOMOSEXUAL PERSON SO DEEP IN THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFE STYLE THAT HIS FLESH CRAVES AND BEGS FOR ANOTHER SEXUAL HIGH WITH THE SAME SEX. I BELIEVE THAT GOD CAN REACH DOWN IN THAT HEART AND CONVINCE HIM OF SIN, RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND JUDGEMENT. JESUS PROMISED SO... BECAUSE OF ELECTION, I BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL REACH DOWN IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES AND SAVE THEM VIA JESUS AND LEAD THEM TO BELIEVE JESUS EVEN IF GOD DOES NOT TELL US WHEN OR HOW! BECAUSE OF ELECTION, I BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL REACH INTO THE DEMONIC DEPTHS OF WHICHCRAFT, I HAVE WITNESS THAT, AND SAVE SOMEONE SO DEMON POSSESSED THAT HE CANNOT HEAR THE NAME OF CHRIST SPOKEN BY ANOTHER PERSON. HE HAS TO HAVE DIVINE INTERVENTION! YES, AND THEY WILL... BECAUSE OF ELECTION. BECAUSE OF ELECTION, I INVITE ANYONE AND THEIR FAMILIES TO GO TO THE MISSION FIELD WITH ME AND SEE WHO GOD IS SAVING. I NEVER PRONOUNCE ANYONE GOING TO HELL, NOT EVEN THE VILEST OF SINNERS! AMAZING GRACE HOW SWEET THE SOUND THAT SAVED A WRETCH LIKE ME! BECASUE OF ELECTION, I BELIEVE THAT GOD WILL SAVE THE MAN WHO WROTE THESE WORDS, JHON NEWTON, A SLAVE TRADER, A RAPIST, A DRUNK, A DEMON POSSESSED MAN WHO ACCORDING TO ACCOUNTS, USED TO BE SO POSSESSED THAT HE WOULD SOMETIMES BARK LIKE A DOG. BECAUSE OF ELECTION GOD CAN REACH DOWN TO A MAN SO STONED WITH DOPE THAT HE IS NOT EVEN SELF AWARE, LET ALONE AWARE OF GOD. BUT GOD DOES AND I SEE IT HAPPENING EVERYDAY! BECAUSE OF ELECTION, I AM THE ONE WHO IS NOT DOOMING ANYONE TO HELL. WHO IS EMBRACING THEM IN THEIR SPIRITUAL DISEASE AND WIHTOUT ANY SHOW OF SUPERIORITY, LOOKING UPON THAT PERSON AND SEEING MY OWN CONDITION WITHOUT JESUS AND MINISTERING TO THEIR NEEDS. I CANNOT HELP THEIR SALVATION, BUT I SURELY CAN BELIEVE IN GOD'S PROMISE TO SAVE THOSE WHOM HE WILL SAVE. SINCE HE IS NOT TELLING ME WHO THEY ARE, I WILL PREACH TO ALL OF THEM. WE SHOULD NOT PRONOUNCE THE DOOM OF THE DRUG ADDICT, THE HOMOSEXUAL, THE HINDU OR THE MUSLIM UNTIL WE RISK OUR COMFORTS AND MINISTER TO THEM. THEN EVEN THEN, WE SHOULD ALLOW GOD TO CARRY HIS PLAN WHETHER HE WILL OR NOT SAVE THAT PERSON! THAT'S THE CORE OF EVANGELISM. This is NOT A RELIGION! This is a ministry whereby we look upon a sinner and see ourselves without the Grace of God! RELIGION ALWAYS ASSUME THAT THEIR NEIGHBORS IS GOING TO HELL! HOW DO THEY KNOW? ARE THEY GOD? CAN THEY READ THE MIND OF GOD? CAN THEY KNOW THE FUTURE? CAN THEY APPLY BIBLE SCRIPTURES TO THAT PERSON WITHOUT APPLYING THE SAME SCRIPTURES TO THEMSELVES? ALL JESUS CALLED US TO DO IS TO WITNESS! NOT TO FORECAST THE DOOM OF THE PERSON WE'RE WITNESSING TO! RELIGIOUS PEOPLE DO THAT ALL THE TIME! WE SEND MORE PEOPLE TO HELL THAT IT WOULD FIT IN THERE! GOD DOES NOT NEED ME, GOD DOES NOT NEED A PREACHER. HE USES PREACHER AS HE PLANNED THAT THROUGH THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING MANY WOULD COME TO KNOW CHRIST. HE SAID AND PAUL REPEATED, "HOW CAN THEY HEAR UNLESS OTHERS PREACH", BUT PAUL HIMSELF WAS SAVED WITHOUT ANY OTHERR PREACHER THAN JESUS HIMSELF! THERE ARE OTHERS THAT WERE SAVED WITHOUT A PREACHER EVEN TODAY! ALL BECAUSE OF ELECTION! Please, understand that the bottom line of our discussion is simply our distinctions mentioned above in my view. If we can live with these differences, we can get along fine and bless someone in this forum and be blessed as well. You can always avoid reading my posts. You can always skip my posts when you see the name Graceambassador on the author line. Unless I get expelled from the forum, I will continue to post based upon my beliefs. If you feel offended by them, there is nothing I can do about it but to advise you to ignore them! Soon, a post exegeting the word "ALL". I will, as a courtesy, post the method I use to study the word. I will appreciate the same courtesy from those who will refute such a study. I will try to be converted to being short in my posts! Thanks for the attention! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
THE MEANING OF "ALL". Objective: to verify if the word "all" in the NT means "without exception" or "without distinction". Method: 1. Studying various examples where the word "ALL" appears in the KJV or NIV and understand its various meanings 2. Understanding what the author of the book where the word appears is speaking about 3. Understanding the entire body of writing of the author so as to put the word within the context of what the author was inspired to write. 4. Finding examples where the word is applied as meaning without "exception or without distinction". 5. Using the entire Bible to find where the word fits in context to biblical revelation The word "All": The question arises because of 1 Timothy 2:4: 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. The context: Paul is exhorting Timothy to pray and intercede for all men. Then he establishes what kind of people should be the object of Timothy's prayer. As such, Paul is actually advising Timothy to pray for men in authority because that would bring peace among all men. Then Paul says something that has to be looked upon in context with two things: THE WORD SALVATION (will be dealt with later) NOW THE WORD ALL Here is what we have to say about the word "all" The word "ALL" in the New Testament, specifically when dealing with a "quantity of people" has the meaning of "without distinction" rather than "without exception" Here is proof: In Matthew 10:22 our Master says: "and you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake..." Logically, there would be no other Christian in the world because all would hate the disciples. Also logically, if our Lord did not exaggerate or lied or tried to spread fear among His followers, and the word all means all without exception (which is in every translation of the Bible by the way), then you and I are guilty of hating the poor followers of our Lord. Does that make sense to you? 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my nameís sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Here again we have the word "saved" apparently linked to works, but we will deal with this word later. I suppose no one here believes that Jesus would preach "salvation by works". If the word "all" means "without exception" here, then Jesus was prone to exaggerate! Also there would be no logic in spreading His message since, "if we are going to be hated by all men", then there will be no men left to hear the message we preach. Probably, only those who heard the message of Jesus and were there hearing His speech personally, would be the ones who would follow Jesus. After all, the Master was proclaiming that ALL MEN would hate them. You and me would hate them as well because we are part of "all" men! I do not hate the disciples, and neither most of my readers. Was Jesus then, a false prophet? A liar? A serial exaggerator? No Jesus was saying that, "His disciples were going to hated by "all" men that "hate them". The distinction here is the men who will oppose to our message and that will hate you! They would be persecuted by the religious people of that day. And they were persecuted and hated by the religious crowd of those days! But not you and me! Thus, it cannot be said that "all men will hate you" is "all men without exception". Luke 21:38 "And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him." Here we have another example. There is no evidence in the Bible nor in history that the Temple of Jerusalem would be able to comport ALL THE PEOPLE of that geographical area. Obviously, this is not necessarily meaning "all the people" without exception! This has the distinction of the people who were hearing Jesus before and admiring His teaching. Here, again, the word "all" cannot possibly mean "without exception". Mark 1:5 5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. This is a more interesting example. We have a statement here that indicates that all the people both from Judea and Jerusalem were ALL baptized. What a great Baptist revival! Great Baptismal service! What a "harvest"? Too bad Luke was not so enthusiastic about this event. He says in his book 30But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him Again we note that some people were not baptized. Perhaps we can understand that if "some" have not been baptized, then NOT ALL WERE BAPTIZED. There is not intention on the part of Mark to say that "all people from Judea and Jerusalem" were baptized in the Baptism of John! Obviously the distinction is the people who showed up to be baptized, with the exception of the Lawyers and the Pharisees! These are only a few examples where the word "all" cannot be applied to mean "all" without exception. We can applied the same principle to the word "whatsoever" and "whosoever". When Paul states to Timothy that God wants all men to be saved, Paul is saying that the "salvation" is referring to here is from "not living in peace" as stated in the context, specially in verse 3, where Timothy is commanded to pray for those in authority so all can live a quiet and peaceful life. Paul is saying, "Timothy, pray for the kings and those in authority so that they cannot hurt you with their decisions. God wants you all and them, to live quietly and peacefully and want you to be saved of their oppression and bad decision. That's why you should pray for them." This is what Paul said in context with: The word "save" … The whole body of His writings. Paul never declared that God wants to save "all men without exception. See Ephesians chapter 1, and chapter 2. Pay close attention to terms such as "children of disobedience" and others that indicate a irreversible depraved state. See Romans 1 and Romans 9 … What he tells Timothy in 1 Timothy chapter 4 where Paul declares some perilous times. Then Paul tells Timothy that he should continue in his teachings because doing so Timothy would: "Ö.save himself and othersÖ." If the word "save" here is eternal Salvation and not salvation (small "s") from the tragedy described in the first verses, then Paul is contradicting everything he wrote and declaring: … By following Timothy's teaching, which is ultimately my teaching, you can save yourself … By following Timothy's teaching, which is ultimately my teaching, you can be saved … And Timothy, by teaching others YOU CAN BE THE SAVIOR … My teaching SAVES, says Paul! It would suffice here to prove that the word "save" here is NOT ETERNAL SALVATION, and there would be no more importance place in the word "all". But Paul is saying that he wants ALL CHRISTIANS, (a distinction) TO PRAY AND INTERCEDE FOR THEIR POLITICAL LEADERS, (another distinction) SO THEY CAN LIVE A PEACEFUL LIFE BECAUSE IT IS GOD DESIRE THAT BOTH THE CHRISTIANS AND THE POLITICAL AUTHORITIES be saved of bad decisions. THIS IS FAR DIFFERENT THAT TO SAY THAT PAUL IS DECLARING HERE, AGAINST EVERYTHING ELSE HE TAUGHT ABOUT SALVATION BY GRACE, THAT GOD DESIRES THAT "ALL MEN BE SAVED, WITHOUT EXCEPTION". The above study is not to discourage Evangelism. Is to ENCOURAGE people who evangelize and often are DISCOURAGED for what humanly we consider "lack of results". Is to encourage those who cannot rent a big stadium and call people from the balconies to stand foward, sing three verses of "just as I am", recite the "sinners prayer" (as if there is any other kind!) and ask people fo fill up a membership card. This is to encourage people to understand the God will save those whom He will save and that we are HIS WITNESS, PARTICIPANTS OF HIS ETERNAL PLAN! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Sherry2 |
GA said:I BELIEVE THAT, MOST CHRISTIANS WILL DOOM THEM TO HELL FASTER THAN I CAN SAY "HALLELLUYAH Some, yes, but not most. And I don't believe believing in election or not accounts for that. I'll say this: GA does care for the people and witnessing to them, as any of us do. Some of us agree with predestination, others of us don't. Bottom line is we all believe we are called to serve and be infact grace ambassadors and preach the Word to the world, and I think (this is an assumption I realize) that most have an understanding that God saves those in other places by works of the Holy Spirit, even though a man never preached it to them. For GA that equals election. For others of us, it is praying in cooperation with God for others, and still for others they may see another Biblical explanation apart from these. I want to say to Val that I have found it a pointless thing to discuss this issue as well, for in the past I've been told that I was just not mature enough to see these things, and SDA phobiasm too. I hear you LOUD and CLEAR!! I was truly hurt and remained off this site for over 6 months. I am back because, despite it, I realized that my own pride of making an inner oath to never be here again was not a Godly thing to do. I know there are those who are leaving SDAism that need to be supported and hear my story and others so I am back for them, and to share what I've gleaned that God may be glorified through it. But to all, what have we better to preach that Jesus Christ crucified! A stumbling block to pride, but for those who receive it, a wonderful healing and new life (Eternal life in fact) to those who believe and trust 100% in the works of Christ unto salvation. With Christian Love, Sherry | ||
| Sherry2 |
Lydell, you said this earlier"My point is that satan has a counterfeit, we know that is true from the example of EGW! But a counterfeit is only made of something valuable. So let's not reject the reality of what the true Spirit of God can do. And He can do most interesting things when it suits His purpose! We should never rely only on some manifestation as proof that it was God at work, most certainly! The teachings of the person must always agree with the word" I just want to say, I was very comforted to know this is where you stand. I have had such bad expereinces in the charasmatic churches where there seems to be no honest checking with the Word and experiences at all. Just really glad to know that!! Thank you for sharing. | ||
| Valm |
GA. I will read your "All" study sometime later as my mind is not up to it. But I will do it. I did copy and take your post before the "All" post in the car on the way to family fun time. We went sailing; wind at 8 knots and sunny and briskly cool. I slept like a baby in the v berth for an hour. The family gets annoyed with me but that boat is like a sedative, can not help myself other than to take a nap. I am neither suprised or embarassed at what you think or believe. It was as I suspected. You are passionate and highly committed in your evangelism and in your beliefs and they are exactly what I thought they were. I do wonder if this core belief that sets the foundation on WHO GOD IS is something you sahre at the very beginning of your witness to people on the Gospel message. I wonder if they would stay around to listen to the rest if they thought this to be the foundation of the Gospel. What I would like to do is not focus on the "arrogance" factor. That is just a side issue that is neither necessary or warranted. So forgive me for ever mentioning it and allow me to go on to what the core issue here is. To me this whole concept of predestination or election as you prefer to call it, sets the foundation as to WHO GOD IS and WHAT HIS CHARACTER is about. I will rewrite what I posted earlier and I ask you to read it through as many times as it takes for you to comprehend what it means to me IF predestination is true: It is not that I wish anyone to tell me that I am saved or not or a child of God or not. It is that I find the whole idea of people who are predestined for salvation or damnation so HORRIFIIC that I can not even express it. I take such a strongly defensive approach to this because I see it as just maddening and defamatory to who I believe God is. I would encourage you to read Lydell's post from 5:18 this morning as it is also quite expressive of how I feel. She hit the nail on the head when it comes to how I feel. As I looked at my children today and imagined that one of them could be elected and one not, I could not even comprehend loving a GOD that would do that. And if I were lucky enough to have both of my children elected I could not accept that there were Mothers in other places that were not given that same gift. Yes I know you will tell me who am I to question God? And I am no one. But even nobodies have deep rooted feelings and values. And love can not be faked when it comes to God. Oh, I have enough discipline to follow any set of rules. I could speak the words of claiming Jesus as my Saviour and in all appearances walk the walk of a fine Christian lady. But to Love God with all my Heart, Soul and Mind would be impossible. It just wouldn't happen if I were convinced of predestination. So my reactivity to this message is VERY VERY DEEP. It lies at the foundation of my beliefs. If your point of view is wrong, I must speak out in witness to the LOVE I believe God bestows on all of us. If I come to the point of believing that your point of view is correct, I must leave Chrisitianity. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
sherry2, Just read your posts and I thank you for your encouragement and will keep in mind that I am here to help others who are leaving Adventism. I am ready to take my own Sabbatical from this site but perhaps that is not what I am called to do. I wished I could just let this be. I have no problem with the part of people being elected to salvation, that is the happy part. But I have to confront that, in this doctine, only some are elected. And there are plenty of innocents that are forever lost without any choice in the matter. This is too horrific to me to ignore. I can accept most differences in points of doctrine (state of the dead, rapture, gay people, wearing jewelry, appropriate tithe, ect.) These are inconsequential matters to WHO GOD IS and the plan of Salvation. The issue of predestination is not. Once again thank you for your nice words. Valerie | ||
| Lori |
Where in the Bible does it state that people are elected/predestined to be lost? The Bible states very clearly that believers are elected but this does not mean that the antithesis is true. If the antithesis is not stated in scripture then it does not exist!! Where is it quoted that the lost are predestined to be lost?? All predestination and election scriptures are related to believers only! Lori | ||
| Valm |
Lori, Some would claim that 1 Peter 2 8-9 suggests that some were predestined for disobedience and hence....... I believe that unbelief is destined for destruction. But I do not see that there is a presdestined people for destruction. Lori expound on your ideas somemore. Help me out here with some scripture. This has been somewhat of a spiritual crisis for me. Are you saying that your opinion is: That you believe therefore you are elected? Others would say that this was predetermined before you were yet born, before the foundations of the world were set. Others would say that not only salvation is predetermined but so is damnation. I am experiencing a bit of a spiritual jolt over this. I do not know how I will be able to face the reality if predestination is scripturally solid. Valerie | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Valm: (and Lori) Thank you for reading my posts during fun time! Really! I think that the attitude should be not to spoil one's life because of theological disagreements! You say: I do wonder if this core belief that sets the foundation on WHO GOD IS is something you sahre at the very beginning of your witness to people on the Gospel message. I wonder if they would stay around to listen to the rest if they thought this to be the foundation of the Gospel. They stick around because I teach them that since they ARE CHOSEN AND CALLED, ALL THINGS WILL (GOOD AND BAD - THE WORD IN THE GREEK IS SINERGY, OR ENERGY EXERCISED TOGETHER) WILL WORK TOGETHER FOR THEIR GOOD SINCE THEY ARE CALLED BY GOD AND ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, AND NOT BY THEIR WILL OR THEIR PURPOSE! IT CHANGES THE WHOLE PERSPECTIVE OF OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! Their prayer life changes: it becomes an expression of God's will... They're perspective of Church gatherings changes: It becomes an uncontainable expression of praise where YES MADAM, EMOTIONS ARE INVOLVED! God made us with emotions hasn't he? Their entire perspective changes and is totally different from the legalistic environment that they came from, whether in Catholicism, Islamism, Judaism, or some Christian denominations as well, where everything has to be gained by good behavior, the correct prayer, the right attitude, the exact contribution, the fastings, the sacrifices, etc..! They understand GRACE IN ITS PURITY! IT IS ALL ABOUT GOD! IT IS GOD'S INITIATIVE, HE STARTED, HE WILL FINISH IT. I AM NOT AFRAID TO LOSE MY SALVATION BECAUSE HE WILL NOT ALLOW ME TO. IF I FALL, I FALL ON HIM. JUST AS IF WHEN I AM IN A SHIP: IF I FALL, I FALL ON THE DECK, NOT IN THE WATER! IF I DRIFT, HE WILL CAUSE ME TO RETURN! I could continue with this. I've been in the ministry since 17 years old. I was conceived probably in a Church pew (nice churches we have in Brazil...) but I do not see this JOY UNSPEAKABLE AND FULL OF GLORY IN OUR EVANGELICAL CIRCLES TODAY! IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THE BRIDE OF CHRIST IS LACKING OF ESTROGEM!!! But when they know whose are they, who called them, justified them, who glorified them and when and how, they change!!! (sorry if I sound irreverent, it is meant with humor, I have some male comments to make as well, but the bride happens to be a female presumption). Sorry for being me! Complain to the Manager. HE MADE ME THIS WAY! You also very properly say: As I looked at my children today and imagined that one of them could be elected and one not, I could not even comprehend loving a GOD that would do that. And if I were lucky enough to have both of my children elected I could not accept that there were Mothers in other places that were not given that same gift. You begin by the premise that ALL ARE CHILDREN OF GOD! I hope you understand that this is not what the Bible teaches. In my example a few posts ago I said that I am willing to save my son in spite of his rebellion but not be as willing when it comes to the son of my neighbor of any unknown person... The Bible says that those that were given the "power to be called the CHILDREN OF GOD" are those that "are not BORN ACCORDING TO FLESH AND BLOOD, NOR THE WILL OF MAN BUT OF GOD". It is in John 1:13. Here it is so clear that the will of God is the agent of the new birth that I am appalled that I did not notice before! Also, why would God compare in the Bible our Salvation with a "birth". Can anyone of us choose the way we're born or plan his/hers own birth? It is not clear that something has to happen before "birth" that is out of the control of the one who will be born? NOW, MY QUESTION AGAIN: HOW DO WE KNOW IF THE CHILDREN OF OTHER MOTHERS ARE NOT THE ELECT! I WILL CONTINUE TO MINISTER TO THEM EVEN IF IN THE FLESHLY APPEARANCE THEY ARE IN DRUGS, HOMOSEXUALITY, CRIME, BEHIND BARS, OR NEEDING TO BE, OR ANYTHING! I DO NOT KNOW! THEY MAY BE IN THE SAME PIG'S SWILL THAT THE PRODIGAL SON WAS, BUT GOD IS WAITING FOR THEM BY THE WAY SIDE! I WOULD NEVER GIVE UP ON ANYONE, UNLESS PAUL TELLS ME TO DO IT AS HE DID TO A FELLOW IN THE CORINTHIAN CHURCH WHERE HE TOLD THE CHURC NOT TO PRAY FOR HIM! AS FOR ME, I DO NOT HAVE APOSTLESHIP, THANK GOD! I WOULD NEVER GIVE UP ON SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF OTHER MOTHERS OR FATHERS! HEREIN LIES MY DIFFERENCE WITH FREE WILL PREACHERS WHO SEND EVERYONE TO HELL BY EMPHASIZING THE CURRENT STATUS: MY PREMISE IS THAT THEY ARE A POTENTIAL IN THE HANDS OF GOD NO MATTER WHAT! WHAT HAPPENS IN ETERNITY IS ABOVE MY PAY SCHEDULE! GOD ONLY KNOWS! MY OBLIGATION IS TO ALLOW JESUS VOICE TO BE HEARD SO HIS SHEEP WILL HEAR HIS VOICE! What God will do for His CHILDREN, THE ELECTED ONES, is stated in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. THE FATHER WAITED FOR HIM TO COME BACK ABANDONING THE FARM! MY GOD BECAUSE HE CHOSE ME, WILL CONSIDER ME A SON EVEN WHEN I AM AWAY IN THE PIG'S SWILL. HE WILL LEAVE THE AFFAIRS OF THE WORLD AS A MATTER OF NO IMPORTANCE JUST FOR ME! GLORY TO HIS NAME! HE WILL RECEIVE ME ON THE WAY SO NO ONE SEES MY DIRT. HE WILL CLOTHE ME AND CLEAN ME BEFORE I GO IN THE HOUSE, (NO EXPOSŠS AS RELIGION DID WITH FALLEN PREACHERS - THE CHRISTIAN NATIONAL ENQUIRER), HE WILL PUT THE ROBE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ON ME (WHAT A DIFFERNCE FROM RELIGION) AND PUT A RING ON MY FINGER AND SAY: MY SON! MEANING, EVEN WHEN I WAS AWAY I WAS STILL A SON! THE OLDER BROTHER WILL SAY: "THIS SON OF YOURS" RATHER THAN MY BROTHER. THIS IS RELIGION! SORRY TO BE PREACHING, BUT THIS IS WHAT I ENCOUNTER IN SOME EVANGELICAL CIRCLES! I understand your contention because I was the same way! I expelled people like I am today from my Church. I kicked them out as I believe I was kicked later! One day I needed Grace. I prayed, I cried, I begged, I RUBBED MY RESUME IN GOD'S FACE, I even told God how smart I had been for choosing HIM. God in HIS GRACE, showed me that HE WAS THE ONE WHO HAD CHOSEN ME AND NONE OF WHAT I DID HE WAS INTERESTED IN: ONLY IN WHAT JESUS DID FOR ME. That's when I understood that I had no participation in my Salvation. I also threatened to leave Chrisianity if election was true! Today I believe something that I prefer not to say about Christianity without the doctrine of ELECTION and its poor substitute FREE WILL! I indeed left "christianity". To believe that God had chosen me and that He has chosen many today for me to go and reach with the Gospel message is just what I needed to revive my faith. But it was just what I was fighting against! I have a degree in two FREE WILL Bible Colleges: Methodist and a Charismatic one! I fought what I believe today as Paul fought Christianity, short of killing people physically, although some I killed morally by assasinating their character. But God fogave me and restitutions were made. There is nothing broken in God that cannot be mended! Again, I apologize for boring you with my testimony. I hope is not a PESTYMONY, AND I KNOW IS NOT A TESTIPHONY! What a change! A few posts ago I was chocking my flesh not to get angry with you and I got all frustrated and probably did get and showed some anger. Now I am giving you my testimony. What a God! What a Savior! What a Gospel! What surprises me is that some of you think that I took this out of my hat, and this is a new thing. Free will is a new thing! What I believe can be traced through 2000 years of the history of Christianity. Lori I quoted two scriptures above, I refer you to the posts I wrote before, however, you can check one in I Peter 2:8-9 in context with the text, specially as opposed to the "chosen generation" of the next verse. Also, Psalm 58:3, Matthew 7:23 where Jesus declares that He never knew some people! How come THE ALL KNOWING GOD, CHRIST (NOT THE SUFFERING CHRIST PREVIOUS TO THE CROSS, BUT THE GLORIFIED CHRIST AT JUDGEMENT) DECLARES THAT HE NEVER KNEW SOMEONE? Just a rethorical question! Logically, can you explain, (a fair question) if one is predestined and elected, what are the others? (Just a rethorical question, you do not have to answer. I think I know the answer) Grace Ambassador | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Valm: It is me again, and since I am in an apologetic mood, let me apologize for addresing to you. One thing has not happened in this forum yet, but I think it will soon: It is for people to call me the other side of the extreme: A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN, AN UNIVERSALIST THAT BELIEVES THAT ANYBODY WILL BE UTIMATELY SAVED. Well, I take from both sides. The attacks come from every direction. To advance this situation, let me point out that: IS NOT THAT I BELIEVE THAT ANYONE, NO MATTER WHAT KIND OF LIFE THEY LIVE AND DIE WITH IS STILL SAVED ANYWAY. I ONLY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE NOT "NOT SAVED IN GOD'S TIMELESS PLAN". IT IS DIFFERENT! THIS MEANS, I WILL NEVER SAY THAT ONE IS NOT SAVED UNTIL I GET TO HEAVEN. THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WALKING ABOUT THE STREETS OF GOLD THAT I DO NOT WANT TO SAY WHEN I SEE THEM: WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? That's all! I do not pronounce doom on anyone! People literally get SICK AND LEAVE MY HOUSE, of hearing me and my wife telling kids with all sorts of freakish behavior: If the Holy Spirit drew you to us to hear from us, or from any preacher, or to the Bible, or TO ANY CHRISTIAN, is because GOD LOVES YOU AND HAS A PLAN FOR YOU SINCE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. THE MORE YOU ATTEMPT TO RESIST THIS PLAN THE MORE YOU WILL SUFFER HERE ON EARTH! UNTIL SOME TRAGEDY FINALLY TAKES YOU TO GOD, EVEN IF IT IS IN YOUR LAST SECOND OF BREATH". THIS WILL BE A TRAGEDY BECAUSE YOU WILL SEE THAT YOU WASTED YOUR LIFE... (OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT...) This is different than to say: "If you do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ (an expression foreign to the Bible) as your Savior, you will go to hell! Let's sing three verses of "Just as I am", and then, as the organ plays softly, you repeat this prayer after me. None of this is in the Bible, but it is the religiously correct (like in politically correct) to do... So, tough on the Bible, let's do it anyway... Of course preachers today do not use these words, but is almost the same thing and the same attitude towards one who is obviously DESPERATE FOR CHRIST, and not religion. So, bottom line, I am not an UNIVERSALIST, I JUST BELIEVE THAT NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE, THEY ARE NOT, "NOT SAVED IN THE TIMELESS PLAN OF GOD". And this is Biblical, I think... If they will not be saved IT IS BEYOND MY PAY SCHEDULE! GOD DID NOT ASK ME TO CO-SIGN HIS OATH OR THE AGREEMENT HE MADE WITH JESUS! Thank you for listening! Tomorrow morning I've got to be in Benton Harbor Michigan, and it is beginning to snow here in Holland, Michigan! What a drive! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Grace Ambassador, Thank you, thank you and thank you! But first I'll Praise the LORD because everything that you are saying thus far is what I had found in the Scriptures as a new Christian a few years back. Now, all those questions that were in my head at the time, I would pose to pastors of Churches. Of course they told me that I'm too young in Christ to understand 'their' (meaning the pastor's) truth. Still, I find hard evidence in the Bible that does indeed agree with what you are saying and I've even looked up the original langauge to be sure. Wow, this is wonderful to know that for two years of thinking all of what you are saying, it is being confirmed even further. Some of my questions came from the texts in which God tells Pharaoh that He raised him up for that purpose. This was one that confirmed what I had suspected but had nobody to speak with in regards to this issue. Another text or Truth was what God said about Jacob and Esau, BEFORE they were even born! One other was the text of God saying that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. These and many others gave me knowledge that it was God who decided, NOT us. It was God who FOREKNEW, ELECTED, FOREORDAINED et-cetera, NOT us. I have never held outloud this opinion until now, in this post. Instead I would, if asked about it, either try to hmm haw around it or not answer at all as I would know what their stand on this issue was. Not wanting to get into it with them, because I am new and cannot remember Scripture very good, due to brain damage. I knew that my disabilities would limit me in any argument, discussion or debate (as the debate does happen on this very topic). The memory problem still does very much limit me much of the time. It's frustrating to say the least to know what I've read and then cannot, when needed, remember where in the Bible I read it. Now, it is out in the open as to my belief. I'm still very much studying this issue and then will be able to stand on it, when speaking to others, without hesitating. I'm not posting to ascribe to know all I need to know of this topic nor is it my wish to enter into this debate on this forum. Simply, I wanted to Praise the Lord in public and thank you openly. Especially do I need to study more and to know how to memorize Scripture, stand undaunted and teach on this matter. Especially with eloquence Grace as you apparently do in my opinion. God's Blessings on your journey tomorrow! Grace and Peace to you Milton, your sister in Christ Jesus and HE IS Sovereign! Denise the Berean or simply DtB P.S. I would be very interested in the July Missionary trip! That would be a wonderful privilege! | ||
| Lori |
Why even bother to spread the gospel if it is already pre-determined who is going to be saved and who is going to be lost? What's the point? There is no point in spreading the gospel message if God has already looked down marked each person that will every live with a mark of salvation or a mark of damnation. Yes, God has foreknowledge and God already knows the outcome but it doesn't mean that we never made a choice that determined that outcome. Saying that ALL people are predestined (some to hell; others to heaven) makes life on earth totally pointless. It's like bringing minnows back from your fishing trip. Placing some in a tank of water with air bubbles and others in a tank of water with no air bubbles. Saying that God places humans on this earth that are "elected" for hell is the fish in the tank with no air bubbles. There is a scripture that says man is without an excuse--well, if some men are elected for hell without any choice in the matter than they do have an excuse for not making it to heaven-it's God's fault!!! Every human being that has ever walked the face of this earth has been given the opportunity of God consciousness. What you do with that God consciousness depends on your volition. I wouldn't even bother to share the gospel with a viewpoint of double predestination-their is no point to it-who can change the intent of God. If we are marked from before the creation of the world then why even make a stand at all for the Lord. You and I could be here on this forum "typing our brains out" and be just as lost as the next person who is out getting what he can out of life on earth. For you know,morality is often confused as Christianity. | ||
| Cindy |
Morning Uncle Milt/Grace Ambassador! Hi! What a truly "Amazing Grace" we are privileged to believe in!! Thank-you for your words in your previous two posts! I agree with your statement, saying that very same thing often: "If the Holy Spirit drew you to us to hear from us, or from any preacher, or to the Bible, or TO ANY CHRISTIAN, is because GOD LOVES YOU AND HAS A PLAN FOR YOU SINCE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. THE MORE YOU ATTEMPT TO RESIST THIS PLAN THE MORE YOU WILL SUFFER HERE ON EARTH! UNTIL SOME TRAGEDY FINALLY TAKES YOU TO GOD, EVEN IF IT IS IN YOUR LAST SECOND OF BREATH". THIS WILL BE A TRAGEDY BECAUSE YOU WILL SEE THAT YOU WASTED YOUR LIFE...(OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT)..." I can see God working in the midst of my life. HE reaches down to draw us to Him. I have seen His "footprints" all around me, despite some pretty awful outward circumstances lately... I pray my husband will have the peace that abandoning to, and resting in God alone, gives. And that I, too, will always rejoice in Christ's Finished work...what He has DONE for me! Grace always, cindy | ||
| Valm |
Cindy, According to the philosphy GA is promoting, why bother praying for your husband. If God choose him he wil come around and if God did not choose him he will burn, burn , burn. Read the posts in their entirity and see if you continue to agree. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
I spent a great deal of time last night studying this whole mess and I will reprint the info I found from bluebible.com. Or I think that is the sight. I do this because I believe in honest arguement. As my priest told me yesterday, read it and weep. It is a long post and for that I apologize. For myself I am just too upset right now to do anything. I am in the same limbo I was in when I left the SDA church. I feel like I am in a loveless marriage with God again. I have to break away from this site for awhile. I will see you all later perhaps this will be my lenten fast, HA!!! Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. 5021 tasso {tas'-so} a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); TDNT - 8:27,1156; v AV - appoint 3, ordain 2, set 1, determine 1, addict 1; 8 1) to put in order, to station 1a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint 1a1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one 1b) to appoint, ordain, order 1b1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority 1b2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon Matther Henryís commentary:3. Many of them became, not only professors of the Christian faith, but sincerely obedient to the faith: As many as were ordained to eternal life believed. God by his Spirit wrought true faith in those for whom he had in his councils from everlasting designed a happiness to everlasting. (1.) Those believed to whom God gave grace to believe, whom by a secret and mighty operation he brought into subjection to the gospel of Christ, and made willing in the day of his power. Those came to Christ whom the Father drew, and to whom the Spirit made the gospel call effectual. It is called the faith of the operation of God (Col. 2:12), and is said to be wrought by the same power that raised up Christ, Eph. 1:19, 20. (2.) God gave this grace to believe to all those among them who were ordained to eternal life (for whom he had predestinated, them he also called, Rom. 8:30); or, as many as were disposed to eternal life, as many as had a concern about their eternal state, and aimed to make sure of eternal life, believed in Christ, in whom God hath treasured up that life (1 Jn. 5:11), and who is the only way to it; and it was the grace of God that wrought it in them. Thus all those captives, and those only, took the benefit of Cyrusís proclamation, whose spirit God had raised up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem, Ezra 1:5. Those will be brought to believe in Christ that by his grace are well disposed to eternal life, and make this their aim. . David Brownís commentary: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed--a very remarkable statement, which cannot, without force, be interpreted of anything lower than this, that a divine ordination to eternal life is the cause, not the effect, of any man's believing. 1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 5087 tithemi {tith'-ay-mee} a prolonged form of a primary theo {theh'-o} (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses); TDNT - 8:152,1176; v AV - lay 28, put 18, lay down 12, make 10, appoint 6, kneel down + 1119 + 3588 5, misc 17; 96 1) to set, put, place 1a) to place or lay 1b) to put down, lay down 1b1) to bend down 1b2) to lay off or aside, to wear or carry no longer 1b3) to lay by, lay aside money 1c) to set on (serve) something to eat or drink 1d) to set forth, something to be explained by discourse 2) to make 2a) to make (or set) for one's self or for one's use 3) to set, fix establish 3a) to set forth 3b) to establish, ordain Commentary from David Guzik study guide. It is appointed that those who are disobedient to the word should stumble over Jesus; that He would be judgment to them if they would not take Him as their salvation Commentary from Matthew Henry. God himself hath appointed everlasting destruction to all those who stumble at the word, being disobedient. All those who go on resolutely in their infidelity and contempt Commentary from Faussett: also--an additional thought; God's ordination; not that God ordains or appoints them to sin, but they are given up to "the fruit of their own ways" according to the eternal counsel of God. The moral ordering of the world is altogether of God. God appoints the ungodly to be given up unto sin, and a reprobate mind, and its necessary penalty. "Were appointed," Greek, "set," answers to "I lay," Greek, "set," 1Pe 2:6 . God, in the active, is said to appoint Christ and the elect (directly). Unbelievers, in the passive, are said to be appointed (God acting less directly in the appointment of the sinner's awful course) [BENGEL]. God ordains the wicked to punishment, not to crime [J. CAPPEL]. "Appointed" or "set" (not here "FORE-ordained") refers, not to the eternal counsel so directly, as to the penal justice of God. Through the same Christ whom sinners rejected, they shall be rejected; unlike believers, they are by God appointed unto wrath as FITTED for it. The lost shall lay all the blame of their ruin on their own sinful perversity, not on God's decree; the saved shall ascribe all the merit of their salvation to God's electing love and grace | ||
| Lori |
Valerie, About 1 Peter 2:8,9 Jesus Christ is the cornerstone. All those who choose to believe are built upon the cornerstone-our foundation is the cornerstone because we believe in Him. If we aren't built upon the cornerstone than we have no foundation at all. Those who reject the Cornerstone, refusing to build on Him, instead stumble over Him - instead of being their salvation, Jesus becomes to them a rock of offense. It is destined that those who are disobedient to the word should stumble over Jesus; He would be judgment to them if they would not take Him as their salvation. This was a divine decree established before creation. We are destined to hell or heaven based upon our own volition. It is our choice. The fact that God already knows what is going to happen means nothing. Let's say you take your youngest son into the Texaco station with you. You tell your son before you arrived that he may have the candy bar of his choice when you pay for the gas. Your son can either stay in the car and not get the candy bar or your son will eagerly depart from the car and take what you offered. Do you know what you son will do??? Even if my boys aren't hungry, I know that they will TAKE the candy bar!!! However, just because I have this slight bit of foreknowledge doesn't mean I make the decision for them or that they weren't in control of making the decision. That's how it is with God. God has foreknowledge!!! In this discussion people are confusing predestination with foreknowledge, there is a big difference. I am elected because I made the decision to believe in Jesus Christ!! What determines your salvation? John3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life..." What determines your salvation? The decision YOU make to believe or not to believe If we are all predestined one way or the other then it should read "Whoever I have predetermined will believe in the Son and have eternal life, there are those also that I have made the decision for them-THEY WILL NOT SEE LIFE.." John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already becase he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Our salvation is not linked to a predetermination by God--our salvation is linked to whether we choose to believe in Christ or not. Denise: Concerning Pharaoh: Why was his heart hardened? His heart was hardened because he didn't believe!!!! Relate this to our Adventist friends....they believe false doctrines. How can you harden them to your viewpoint? Keep sticking it in their face!!! Keep showing them the things they have already rejected!!! At some point Pharaoh had been God conscious--Pharaoh was without an excuse (Rom 1:20), he had been God conscious and he rejected it. He chose his idols over the living God. God kept showing Pharaoh the power of the living God and the more he was shown what he had already rejected the harder he was against it. | ||
| Lori |
Valerie, Write to me a this email address: LoriCD@excite.com | ||
| Richardjr |
Dear Grace Ambassador, I think you might be on to something there. I hear a ring of truth to what you say. Thank you. | ||
| Lori |
GA, You asked: "If some are elected or predestined then what are the others? ANSWER: the others are lost. Election applies only to those who have made the decision to believe! Do you think that Adam and Eve had no other choice to make in the garden but the wrong one? Lori | ||
| Lori |
Addressing Christians in Romans 8:29ñ30, Paul writes, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Individual predestination is not specifically what is under consideration in this passage, but a predestination of Godís purpose. It was Godís purpose before the foundation of the world to choose a people who would be conformed to the image of His Son (see also Eph. 1:1ñ4). Anyone who heeds the call of the gospel is predetermined to become conformed to the image of Godís Son, for that is what God has decreed. But in His plan, it is not the person who is predestined, but the ìmoldî into which the person puts himself. There are molds into which lead is poured and when the lead cools, out came little lead soldiers! That molten lead was "predestined" to become conformed to the image of a soldier. With human beings, God does not "pour us" into His mold, but when we heed the gospel call, we choose for ourselves to enter that "mold." No one can be conform himself to Christ by doing his own will. If we are to be conformed, it must be on Godís terms. The parable of the sower in Matt. 13:3ñ23 shows that the word (the seed) falls on all kinds of different soil. Whether a person accepts it or not, stands firm or falls away, depends upon the person, not the word. When Jesus said in verse 9 "He who has ears, let him hear," He was issuing a warning for people to take heed at what was being said. Some say that a person has no choice in the matter; that his destiny is determined before he is born, and that if God hasnít chosen him, thatís just too bad (of course, the people who believe that, all tend to believe that they themselves have been chosen!). But if you notice the explanation of the parable that Jesus gives in verses 19ñ23, you will see a person has a choice as to which "soil" he will be. As you read those verses, keep in mind what Jesus said in Matthew 7:8: "Everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it shall be opened." You see how this fits with conforming ourselves to Christ? We must actively seek. This does not imply that the soldier that was molded can never become un-Christ-like. I do not believe that every time you donít follow the will of God precisely that you become un-elected. I donít think that people who exhibit behavior that ìchurch peopleî donít approve of makes them un-elected either. When Jesus says ìI never knew youî it means the person never believed in Him. It doesnít mean that he was created to be lost. In re-reading one of Grace Ambassadors post I am inclined to think that his concept of pre-destination stems mostly from the distaste of other believers excluding people from salvation because they make poor morality decisions after they are supposed to have been saved. ñPlease correct me if I misunderstood-- It almost seems as if this is more an issue of once you are saved you are always saved for GA. The illustration of the Prodigal SonóGA do you realize the son was a son before he left and did those things? You also asked the question of: ìCan you choose how you are born?î In the spiritual life yes!!! You can choose NOT to be born! Our re-birth is referred to as an adoption. We were all sons of wrath, the devils children before our re-birth. Actually, unless we choose otherwise we are headed for hell! We make the choice to be adopted simply by believing in Jesus Christ. After that the adoption is complete and we are His forever, no one can snatch us out of His hand. Iím not fully convinced that we are on opposite sides of this issue. I almost think that we just have different definitions for our terms. |
