| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
As an Adventist, I was consumed with fear concerning the end time events. I was horrified that when it came time to "flee" that I would wait 1 minute too long and I would be captured; put in prison. Equally terrifying was the thought that I might actually escape "on time" only to be alone, cold, hungry, frightened and constantly pursued by the "enemy" (non-Adventist people). This seemed almost worse as I knew that I would not even have the Holy Spirit to guide me. And the I would live in a constant inner turmoil wondering if I had any sins that were not forgiven; sins that would forever keep me away from God if I should die or be killed before I remembered them. As a result of this, I have only read bits and pieces of Revelation. That the events that I learned as a child are not based upon Scriptural fact. But being that Revelation was SO confusing from the Adventist viewpoint I haven't really wanted to touch it, or study it too seriously. The chapter that keeps being presented to me is Rev. 12, the account of the woman and the dragon. I have come to the conclusion that the woman is Israel. Only Israel "gave birth" to the man child (this can not denote the church because the church did not give birth to Christ, the church is IN Christ, right?) My Adventist upbringing taught me that the war in heaven mentioned in this chapter is a past event. The brief time that I have spent on this chapter makes me conclude that this war is yet to happen. In the verses prior to it, it talks about the 1260 (3 1/2 years) and in the verses after, it again mentions 3 1/2 years. Doesn't this place this event sometime in the mid-tribulation? In Adventist theology where/what place do they say that the woman has been kept for 1260, how do they fix this as a past event, does anyone know? Lori | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Since no one "touched" my question...I'm going to post what I found in the book "Crisis of the End Time" by Marvin Moore. My question was --Where/What place do they (Adventist) say that the woman has been kept for 1260 days, how do they fix this as a past event?---on page 90 of the before mentioned book it says,"Adventist believe God used America to help the woman". Now how this fits the 1260 days I have no idea. America has been around with religious freedom for a lot longer than that. I found some other remarks that made my mouth drop open. Page 95 "When we take what Scripture and Ellen White say--and especially Ellen White, sinc she lived much closer to earth's final events and spoke more specifically about them--the conclusion is inescapable that in several significant ways, these predictions are not becoming reality". Page 13 "I agree that we should use the Bible and the Bible only when we are writing and speaking to those who are not Adventists. However, Ellen White received specific instruction about endtime events, and if she was God's messenger to the remnant, then we who are the remnant ought to take her seriously"....."In some cases Ellen White unfolded in great detail ideas that Scripture only suggests. That bothers some people, because they think she is adding to the Bible. They don't want to believe anything she said unless it can be found stated just as clearly in the Bible. I disagree with such restrictions on Ellen White......New light has to be truly new light, and not simply a repeat of the old light". Is there a scripture that says not to add to the Scriptures? --Yes, there is!!! In the book of end time events, itself, Rev 22:18 says, "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book". So is it ok for Ellen White to add to the words of Revelation? --NO-- Is there a scripture that says someone will come that will reveal NEW light that has not already been given? ---I don't know one, do you? If you know one please post it? Thanks! Lori | ||
| Sherry2 |
Interesting that you should mention that book, Lori. That was one of my books to help me figure out stuff too...once upon a time. I was pretty scared too. Scared about missing confessing a sin, scared of being without the Holy Spirit. I'm still scared of persecution, more for being afraid for my children and someone hurting them, could I endure, and would they still hold to Jesus. But I actually have delight in seeing Him come now. And now it's more like looking forward to it every day - a constancy of His coming being immenent, not off in the future after the "Sunday laws". What has struck me most is some of the things you miss from just the plain reading of Scripture. For example, Rev. 14 about the three angels....it starts off in the beginning by talking of another angel coming (vs.6). Well that tells you there were angels previous to these three and ofcourse we see that - the angels with the seven seals, etc. Why did I think that the Adventist church had the Three Angels message to deliver to the world, when I know the church didn't see any other thing being the other angels except for angels. We didn't think we were going to deliver the bowls of wrath, we didn't think we had the 7 last trumpets...why did we think we were specially equated to the three angels of Rev. 14? Also the chapter before (13) which we believed in SDAism to talk of the coming Sunday law (i.e. the image of the beast) has plain teaching as well. I've mentioned this before but I think it's worth saying again. If we looked at this chapter from a Ten Commandment perspective, you can't get Sabbath out of it at all. What did the beast break? Well he blasphemed against God, His name, and His tabernacle (gosh that almost sounds like SDAism there for the IJ heresy that distorts the gospel so horribly)...well that would be commandment 3 "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Also the beast is worshiped. Hmmm...Commandment 1 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Now next he kills the saints...commmandment 5 "Thou shalt not kill", and then we also having him make an image of the beast...not to the beast, but of the beast. This term "image" has direct connection to commandment 3, not 4. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images..." If this beast did these things, I don't care if he did give a day of worship (and goodness knows it might be Saturday), you'd better have already figured out this beast is against God...against Christ...antiChrist. Now we could get into Spirit of prophecy = EGW here as well. Ugh!!! There's a topic as well. Sometimes I am amazed that I believed these things. You know, I have this stuff so engrained. I was the Bible reader for 3 years in high school and graded these papers over this time just soaking up more and more of this material. For everyone who knew me, they'd be amazed to think that Sherry Cornell (Reinbold) would leave the church. Phew! God is so good and merciful. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Oh, Sherry, I understand your amazement and gratitude. You and Lori are right--the Adventist explanations are confusing and anti-scriptural. The Bible is clear that no one is add to or subtract from the scriptures. It is such a relief to me not to fear the "Time of Trouble". I know that those who embrace Christ will suffer, but I now know that Jesus will never leave me. I am certain that we can trust him. I know that sounds glib--I do not mean it to be glib. I'm not looking forward to suffering. But I am thankful that I don't have to fear suffering without a mediator! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I have been taking a Bible study on the book of Revelation. It is given by a very dear couple who the husbad is a retired Lutheran pastor and the couple has spent much time in far off lands, especially Russia teaching the Gosple of Jesus. Our textbook is a textbook that the seminary students at the Lutheran seminary in Minnesota use. For the first time in my life Revelation actually makes sense. Also, it is so refreshing to have a minister/teacher who takes that text that says it is not necessary for us to know everything as it is all clear to God, I'm sure you all know what text I mean, it is nice knowing that there are Christian teachers/ministers that that believe & accept thattext and will come out and say they don't have an answer for everything but that is o.k. because they do have all the answers they need to know they are right with God. Growing up I was taught the SDA's had the right answer to EVERYTHING. My JW kin also think they have the right answer to everything. It is such a refreshing and interesting class | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
There's an e-mail going around about Orion that says as follows (I'm pasting directly here from the e-mail): (beginning of e-mail) Our pastor is quite a scholar in Hebrew as well as Jewish religious customs and the meanings in all such things. He also is very interested in astronomy. Today he talked on the constellation of Orion, and its Messianic meanings. Even the name Orion means the Coming One, The Warrior, the Conquorer. Even the names of the main stars in the constellation have Messianic meanings. He personally believes that when God Himself named the stars He was pointing forward to the Coming One and, even though Pagan beliefs later affixed different meanings to the stars and constellations, there still remains the promises of the Messiah right there in the heavens, in many of the stars. He spoke primarily on Orion, and showed on the screen many gorgeous views of the nebula of Orion which have very recently been taken by the Hubble Telescope, and one by NASA. Breathtaking in their beauty. Recently one of the cloud formations on the edge of the nebula seems to have sort of risen up and is shaped rather like a horse's head. He referred to the text in Revelation where it describes Jesus' coming riding upon a white horse. He said that horses signify that something is coming. Of course he showed on the screen, to begin with, the quotation from Early Writings, page 41: "The atmosphere parted and rolled back; then we could look up through the open space in Orion, whence came the voice of God. The Holy City will come down through that open space." Then he showed several quotations from various astronomers in the last 2 or 3 centuries and how they described the nebula as appearing to be a "hole" in the heavens, or an opening with something glorious behind it. But the thing that struck me strongly was his referring to how some constellations are seen only in the northern hemisphere, others only in the southern hemisphere, others can be seen at the equator. But Orion is so located that it can be seen from both hemispheres. And, if the earth were tipped back onto its original axis position (before the flood) everyone on the earth could see it at the same time ! "Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him." Revelation 1:7. Wow! (end of e-mail) The e-mail is not signed by anyone (of course) and doesn't state who the pastor is, etc. Does anyone know if there is any truth in this, or anything about this subject? I'm just curious. Love and prayers to all, Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Yes, I grew up believing that Jesus was coming back through the nebula of Orion. EGW said so. There's absolutely no scriptural backing for such a belief. Besides, we now can see other nebula as well. Orion doesn't have a corner on gorgeous nebula! I also believed that heaven was a specific physical place out in space somewhere--or beyond space. Now I don't know exactly where heaven is. It's in eternity, not time, and we in our three-dimensional, sinful state without our resurrection bodies would not be able physically to live there. The sovereign God will not need Orion as a gateway, either! By the way, did anyone else believe that the sign of Jesus' coming would be a small gray cloud the size of a man's hand that would grow until it filled the heavens and Jesus appeared in it? That was one piece of Adventist trivia that we were surprised and embarrassed to learn was NOT in the Bible, either! Praise God for the Bible--and also for the eschatological mysteries we can live with now that we KNOW we are secure in Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider) |
I thought I was the only one who, as a child, my stomach knotted up if there was a grey cloud in the sky that looked like a man's hand. Oh no,was I ready?! Its funny how absurd some of the things we believed seem now. It wasn't funny then it was very frightening. Praising God, and loving Him even more for truth. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 119 Registered: 3-2004 |
I started reading the NT the first of January and just finished Revelation today. As an SDA it scared me also when I read it, because I thought of everything I had been taught about the RCC persecuting the SDAs. I quit reading the Bible in the 80s, except for certain Bible verses I had in a box. Why did I quit? Because the OT scared me also and thinking that SDAs were spiritual Israel I took everything that happened to them very personally. Yes, I remember now that you bring it up, about the small gray cloud the size of a man's hand. That is not in the Bible. I am remembering bits and pieces as I read all these posts. There are a few things that I have read in Revelation that I do not understand (I do not understand most of it), that I am asking about right now. In Rev. 11:19 it reads "Then the temple of God in heaven was opened and the ark of His covenant was seen in His sanctuary....." At the beginning of this chapter it is talking about the gentiles trampling the holy city. In Rev 21:22 it reads "I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Omnipotent is its temple and so is the Lamb." This last verse is talking about Jerusalem, the holy city v. 10. So what is the other verse Rev 11:19 referring to??? It just piqued my interest and at this time all I have is my Bible and my concordance. It is interesting and thank God it is not important to my salvation as I used to think the IJ was. Can someone explain this to me. Please. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 297 Registered: 12-2003 |
Diana, I cannot adequately explain the symbols of Revelation. I do know that I heard from Dale Ratzlaff a VERY helpful suggestion ( I believe he got his ideas from Richard Fredericks, the former SDA preacher who now pastors a congregational Sunday church in Maryland) that Revelation needs to be read using the Old Testament as the key to its symbols. For example, the only instance of anything being described as a perfect cube in the OT was the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle and temple. In Revelation, the Holy City is described as a perfect cube. My initial thought when I read your question about Rev. 11:19 was, Who or what did the ark of God's covenant in Israel foreshadow? Who IS our covenant now? Who is the sanctuary? (Remember Jesus told the Pharisees, "One greater than the temple is here"?) I cannot explain the differences between Revelation 11:19 and Revelation 21:22, but I do know that Revelation 21:22 is describing the New Jerusalem that is in the new earth after the old earth and heaven are passed away. Unlike our Adventist theology, the book of Revelation certainly does describe an earthly millenial kingdom where Jesus reigns with His saints on earth BEFORE the last great battle and the destruction of all we know and the formation of the new heavens and earth. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 121 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, thank so much. Right now I am just getting acquainted with the Bible and I know I will go back to Revelation. At the church I attend they have a library with all kinds of concordances, and other books by Christian scholars and when I can I will go there to do research on the Bible. Again, thank you. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2000 |
As an adolescent farm boy in western North Dakota, I was blessed with seeing the clear, open skies without the interference of city lights, smog, or fog. The Northern Lights periodically put on a spectacular show as well. I enjoyed riding my horse to my weekly piano lessons (four miles away) and to the country schoolhouse equipped with a horse barn (two miles away). One morning, as my sister was busily washing the cream separator in the milk shed, I happened to be gazing at a particular, fast-moving, puffy cloud that seemed to be coming closer and closer (just as I had learned in German Sabbath School). I ran to excitedly tell her that Jesus is coming RIGHT NOW! She quickly left her work and peered into the skies only to find nothing unusual or imminent to occur. Oh well, Father Miller was mistaken as well (smile). Ever since that boyhood optical delusion, I have been more discerning about end-time events. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 19 Registered: 6-2004 |
North Dakota! My husband and I taught at Sheyenne River Academy in Harvey, North Dakota from 75-77. My husband taught music and I taught the one-room elementary school. Revelation also puzzles me. I tend to believe it is more literal than we think. When I read that the gentiles are going to trample the holy city for 42 months, I look at Jerusalem as it is today with Moslems on the Temple Mount and at the borders of the land, angry and ready to destroy it. And, even though they trample the city for a specific time period, they can not destroy true worship. I try to leave my mind open when it comes to end-time prophecy. The one thing I am sure of is that if I am living during that time, the Holy Spirit will give me all the understanding that I need. Sharon | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 20 Registered: 6-2004 |
North Dakota! My husband and I taught at Sheyenne River Academy in Harvey, North Dakota from 75-77. My husband taught music and I taught the one-room elementary school. Revelation also puzzles me. I tend to believe it is more literal than we think. When I read that the gentiles are going to trample the holy city for 42 months, I look at Jerusalem as it is today with Moslems on the Temple Mount and at the borders of the land, angry and ready to destroy it. And, even though they trample the city for a specific time period, they can not destroy true worship. I try to leave my mind open when it comes to end-time prophecy. The one thing I am sure of is that if I am living during that time, the Holy Spirit will give me all the understanding that I need. Sharon | ||
| Sharon2 Registered user Username: Sharon2 Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2004 |
oops! I didn't mean for it to post twice! Sharon | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'll just chime in with these North Dakota comments. My parents pastored a district in ND in the early 80's. We lived in Beulah, and covered several churches in the area. My best friends lived up towards Harvey it seems like. I was very young, but remember the plains very well! |
