| Author | Message | ||
| Kelly |
Is the rapture for real or are the Adventist correct? I just read Left Behind, is the rapture true? | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Kelly, That's a question my husband and I both wondered once we left Adventism too. Actually, the rapture is simply when we meet Christ in the air, so in a way the SDAs DO believe in the rapture. They just believe that it happens at the same time as the 2nd coming. There are several points of view on this. Many Christians believe the rapture is pre-trib, i.e. that it happens before the 7-year tribulation. That's the view held by Tim LaHaye in the Left Behind series. Others believe in a mid-trib rapture, that it happens in the middle of the tribulation. The SDAs and others are post-trib, i.e. that we're caught up to meet Christ in the air at the 2nd coming. The more I study Biblical prophecy, the more I think that a pre-tribulation rapture makes the most sense if we interpret the Bible literally. At our church there are differences of opinion on the rapture's timing, even on the pastoral staff. Two good authors to read from if you're interested in the pre-trib view are Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsay. They both have recent books out that discuss the rapture and end-time prophecies. So, put me down under the pre-trib category, but I think it's important not to put down another Christian if their view on the rapture differs. The main point is that Jesus is coming back! In His grace, Lari | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lari, Thank you for the way yours posts always make the grace of Christ central. Praise God that he keeps his promises! He is coming back! Colleen | ||
| Kelly |
The only way that the rapture could be a surprise is if it is pre-tribulation. Mid-tribulation and post tribulation will both have a pretty good idea of when he will come don't you think? So, I suppose if I do believe in the rapture I'll have to support the pre-tribulation view. I'm going to have to study it a little more. Thanks! | ||
| Kelly |
Hi, I just checked in to see if anyone had added to this thread. I was dissappointed to see that no one had! I would really be interested to know how the rest of you view the rapture and what scriptural basis that you use to support it. I've read a lot of things about the rapture on the internet. Every one has a slightly different slant on the subject. Please post what you believe concerning the rapture. Thanks Kelly | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey Kelly, Here's a link to a "post-trib" site that explains the view held by SDA's. http://www.intowww.org/bible/bible2.htm In general, I think the post-trib view is supported by the bulk of the Biblical evidence. Chuck | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Kelly! Someone had posted some rapture questions on the other active thread on this forum, so I just posted back my own present, incomplete understanding. You can read it (for what it's worth!) there. I can say that my understanding is definitely not Adventists anymore, but I'm not certain exactly what is true. The Bible is ambiguous about it. I'm no longer certain the rapture is post-trib. I'm definitely certain the thousand years is not spent in heaven but on earth. (See Revelation 20). Colleen | ||
| Larimobley |
Hi Kelly, I'm Lari's husband, Doug, using her user info. This might take a while to post as there is a bit of information to go over to answer your question. Sorry not much got posted, but I think that because SDAs have such a unique interpretation of eschatology, with such an intense focus, that former SDAs may be reluctant to jump into discussions about the varying views of eschatology. In some ways, weíre just burned out, but weíre also just overdosing on grace after such a long dry-spell. After all, what particular end-time scenario you accept is not essential for salvation, so getting into arguments (as students of eschatology often do,) is meaningless and can divide people into polarized camps. The real issue is that Jesus is coming back. Exactly when and how it relates to other end-time events is the question. That being said, however, I think there is validity in discussing these events and the various views. At the end of the day, (or the age) we are going to meet Christ and spend eternity. I for one find the process and possibilities interesting and worth study--but remember, this is not essential doctrine. In the essentials, unity, in the non-essentials, liberty and in all things, charity. A basic understanding about the Rapture: Rapture literally means "caught-up" or "snatched away" as described in 1 Thes 4:17. This is the event where believers are caught up into the air to meet Christ. So in essence, even SDAs believe in the "Rapture." However, when the term is used in general, it typically is referring to the Pre-tribulation rapture (as in Left Behind). For a better understanding of the rapture, understanding the primary theories might be helpful. There are 3 basic views on end time events. First is Post-millennialism. Essentially, this viewpoint is that Christians will eventually spread the gospel, take over the earth and usher in a 1000-year era of peace. At the end of the millennium, Christ will come and usher in final judgement. This is also known as Kingdom Now or Dominion theology. This is the least accepted view. The 2nd view is amillennialism. This holds that the 1000 years is symbolic and occurring now--in general, the time between the cross and when Christ returns. This interpretation largely symbolizes Revelation; it's not to be taken literally. Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians and many others hold this view. There are quite a number of current resources that tell how this view evolved and was introduced into the church in the 3rd and 4th centuries. I can give you links to these resources if youíre interested. Essentially St. Augustine solidified the doctrine by adopting and proliferating a symbolic perspective to prophesy. The 3rd primary view is pre-millennialism. This is where Christ will return for the believers and then a 1000 year period will start. In this view, there are 3 flavors; pre-trib, mid-trib (or pre-wrath) and post-trib. Pre-trib states that Christ will return 1st for believers (the church), then the tribulation (time of trouble) will happen and then Christ will come again at the end of the trib for the final judgement. Mid (and Pre-wrath, a new twist on mid) state that the Rapture occurs during the tribulation, but that Christ will return at the end for judgement. The post-trib states that the rapture and the 2nd coming for judgment are the same event. There is new scholarship to show that the pre-millennial view was widely accepted and written on by early church fathers with some pre-millennial writings dating to 300 AD. Regardless, all pre-millennialists (including SDAs) believe in the rapture, i.e. that we will meet Christ in the air. The timing of this event is what is in question. To be continued in post 2. | ||
| Larimobley |
Part 2. Most evangelical Christians accept the pre-millennial view. Christ will come back for believers and usher in a 1000-year period of peace followed by the final judgement and new heaven/new earth. Identifying the appropriate timing is where the discussion gets interesting. One of the reasons there are multiple flavors of pre-mill, is because in studying the Bible, there appear to be two types of 2nd comings. One is characterized by the believers being caught-up and transformed in a twinkling of an eye--- as described in 1 Thes 4:17 and 1 Cor 15:52. The other is Christ appearing in glory and judgement where he touches the Mt of Olives and it splits openó Rev 19 and Zech 15: 4. To give credit to the SDAs, they clearly recognized the 2 distinct types of comingsóbut in order to explain them, they moved them apart by 1000-yrs and put the believers in heaven for the 1000-yrs while Satan roams the earth. This is clearly unbiblical. The 1000-yrs takes place on earth, so there must be another explanation. The main reason for the post-trib view is those who hold this belief do not think are can be two comings of Christ at the 2nd coming; a part A and B so to speak. Post-tribbers feel that the 2nd coming must be one single event. But after careful study and an understanding of the roles of the Church and Israel, there very well might be a part A and B. Pre-trib and mid-trib (pre-wrath) both hold to a part A and B, with a variance in the timing. For this discussion, weíll just compare pre and post, dealing with the mid-trib position later. Based on the above texts, there appear to be 2 types of comings. If we accept this, are there other texts that verify this possibility? I think one of the most powerful arguments for a pre-trib rapture is understanding the significance of the Jewish wedding. The Church is clearly called the bride of Christ and the wedding metaphor is used extensively. But understanding the wedding ceremony is even more significant. Typical Jewish Wedding in Christís time: 1st: the groom visits the bride to secure the wedding contract and pay the dowry. 2nd: the groom returns to his fatherís house for an undisclosed period of time 3rd: the groom returns unannounced for the bride (usually around midnight, like a thief) and takes her back to his fatherís house for 7 days. 4th: the groom and bride return to the brideís house for the wedding feast. Now, look at Rev 19; just before the great return, the marriage is announced in heaven, ìÖthe wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen,î vs. 7-8. Then Christ comes in glory followed by the armies of heaven dressed in white linen (the new wife), vs. 14. If you cross this with Zech 14: 5 ñìand the Lord will come and all the saints with youî this is a reference to the part B where Christ touches the Mt of Olives and it splits. Clearly, the bride (Church) is coming back WITH Christ at the 2nd coming. So, if theyíre coming back with Christóhow did they get there? They must have been taken sometime beforeóso when? When they were caught-up in the air 1 Thes 4 to be taken back to where Christ has prepared a place for usÖ John 14. Two things are needed to identify the ìwhenî. The first is an understanding of the Day of the Lord and the 2nd is an understanding of Israel in end time events. One hint is ìÖthe Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night.î 1 Thes 5:2. The day of the Lord is not a day, but a period. This day starts unexpectedly, I believe with the rapture of the church, and carries through the 70th week of Daniel and into the final days of the tribulation. The day of the Lord is repeatedly talked about as the day of wrath or the time of Jacobís trouble. The Church is ìnot appointed to wrath,î 1 Thes 5:9 and the Church of Philadelphia is kept ìfrom the hour of trial which will come upon the whole earth.î Rev 3:10. When you cross-reference Dan 9 (70 wk prophecy) with 2 Thes 2, an interesting picture emerges. In Daniel 9, the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week is the Church age. The 70th week begins when a covenant is confirmed (a treaty with Israel) and then is broken ‡ way throughóat the abomination of desolation, spoken of in Matt 24. This week is the time of restoration of Israel as spoken of in Rom 11. In 2 Thes 2, Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord will not start until the man of lawlessness is revealed (Dan 9). And if we are not appointed to wrath and will be kept from the hour that comes on the earth, then we must be gone before the day of the Lord starts. In fact, this is what the whole chapter of 2 Thes 2 is talking about. Paul starts by drawing the distinction of part A of the coming of the Lord, ìand our gathering together TO Him,î i.e. rapture, not the glorious return WITH Him, Rev 19, and Zech, 14. The Thessalonians had been falsely taught that the Day of Christ (Day of the Lord) had come. Thatís why they were upset. They thought they had missed the rapture. If the rapture came after the trib, then they would have been excited because they knew the tribulation was 7 years long (Dan 9ó70th week). Paul specifically states the Day ìwill not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed.î Some scholars believe the ìfalling awayî is a reference to the rapture. Iím not sure. But this is irrelevant, because the ìgatheringî occurs beforehand. In fact, Paul reiterated this in 2 Tim 2:18 where he says some false teachers have ìstrayed concerning the truth, saying the resurrection [of 1 Thes 4] is already past,î that is, the rapture had taken place and now they were in the day of the Lord. Clearly Paul is teaching a separate resurrection and gathering TO the Lord before the Day of the Lord. When combined with Dan 9 and several other texts, I for one am clearly convinced that there is a ìpre-tribî rapture of the Church before the tribulation and the Anti-christ is revealed. After the tribulation, we will return WITH the Lord as a conquering army to establish the 1000-year kingdom. I believe we are in Heaven for these 7 years of tribulation and thatís when the judgement of believers will take place and crowns will be given out. I know this is a lot, but hopefully it will give you some info regarding why people like Tim LaHaye and others including Calvary Chapel and John Walvoord and my wife and I believe in the pre-trib rapture. When one takes the Bible literally and that future prophecy will be literally fulfilled just as past prophesy was, then the pre-trib view emerges as the clearest and most logical explanation of end-time events. The pre-trib rapture could happen anytime: today, tomorrow or 100 years from now. But this is the great hope we share; looking for the return of Christ to take us home. The post-trib view looks for other signs like the Anti-christ and Armageddon breaking out. I find hoping for these signs very discouraging. I prefer to keep looking up in and one day expect that my feet will be no longer touching the ground as we are called to meet our Lord in the air. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. As for mid-trib (or pre-wrath), this belives in part A and B, but that the rapture will not occur until 1/2 way through the tribulation, at the 6th trumpet. My problem with this is that one could then fairly accurately date the rapture based on the revealing of the man of sin. I think the bible is pretty clear that we're gone long before the Anti-christ makes his appearance. This view is respectfully submitted in grace, Doug Lainson | ||
| Sammi |
Kelly, thanks for your most recent inquiry. I've been very interested in other beliefs also! I'm personally not sure what I believe about this subject, but am looking forward to reading the above comment when I have a little time. Thanks Doug! | ||
| Kelly |
Thanks Doug, that was helpful! I have often wondered how saints could "come with Christ" if no one goes to heaven until he comes to get us. Another thing that came to mind when reading what you wrote is this: We are referred to as the church, the bride. Israel is referred to as the wife, the adulterous wife who was turned over to her desires. These two groups will be dealt with very differently and separately don't you think? The bride will be "caught up" and the adulterous wife will finally see what she abandoned and will turn away from her adulterous ways and seek Jesus Christ as she should have long ago. Out of this group will come those 144,000 witnesses that will spread the gospel message to those still on earth. This "wife" is the group that Christ will return for with the bride he has already taken. I just love how Scripture all seems to beautifully fall into place outside of Adventist theology. I understand the reluctance of formers in tacking Revelation, I have been wary of it myself. I have used a study guide by Kay Arthur called Behold He is Coming!! Her study makes Revelation so easy. I've also studied through her study book "Lord, I need grace to make it through" and the book "Our Covenant God" really made the covenants understandable for me. The simplicity of the Bible as she studies it amazes me. Every single story that I learned as a child has a new meaning because it is a simple analogy to a Biblical doctrine. Thanks again Doug for taking the time to post what you did! | ||
| Sherry2 |
Many thanks Doug! That was the most clear and simple description of the different view points. I appreciate that greatly! Wonderful read. Colleen, my thoughts have been about the same as yours. Certain beyond a doubt that the 1,000 years does pertain to on earth, but not sure pre-trib, post-trib, etc. but knowing that is ok. Just keep looking to Jesus. Thank you every body for this discussion! :) | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hi Larry, I have a question about the millenium. I really am curious, because I haven't been exposed to any view except the SDA on the millenium. Why is the SDA view of the millenium clearly unbiblical? Particularly, why must the saints spend it on earth? Also, do you believe that it means 1000 literal years? Thanks, Chuck | ||
| Lori |
If the earth was going to be empty for 1000 years then why would Satan need to be bound in order "to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended"? If the earth were going to be empty for 1000 years then Satan would be "bound" by simply being on the earth alone, wouldn't he? Lori | ||
| Colleentinker |
Doug, thank you! That was really well-explained. Even though I'm not Doug or Lari (and would love to read their views on your question, Churck!), I can't resist commenting on it, too. The clincher for me is Revelation 20. Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss which is not the earth. (see Luke 8:31 where the demons in the demoniac begged Jesus not to send them to the Abyss. Also see Abyss references in Revelation 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3) Further, Revelation 20:3 says Satan is thrown into the Abyss so he can't deceive the nations anymore. That certainly suggests that there are nations to deceive. Rev. 20:4-6 talks about the first resurrection when the "souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God" come to life and reign with Christ a thousand years. The wicked dead do not come to life until after this 1000-year reign. Compare this description to the description of Jesus' return in 1 Thessalonians 4. It doesn't contain as much detail, but both have the souls of the dead in Christ being resurrected, the living joining them, and all being with the Lord. Revelation makes it clear that they reign with Christ before the second resurrection. In order to reign, there have to be people over whom to reign. Rev. 20:7 says when the 1000-year reign is over, Satan is released from his prison and goes out to deceive the nations in the earth. There is nothing here to suggest a third return of Jesus; there's nothing to suggest that the righteous have to come back to earth. They're already here, and there are nations here for Satan to deceive again. I don't know if the 1000 years are literal or not, but I don't see why not. People disagree about its literalism--that's another of the Bible's somewhat ambiguous eschatological details! That's my take on it so far--my views may change with time! I'm just thankful to be free of the rigid but biblically tenuous position we used to hold! I'm thankful God shows us truth in his time! Colleen | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Friends! It is good to check in here! I have been bashing my head against the walls of a current-SDA forum for a while, supposedly open to "formers", too. I've got a terrific head-ache! It is so very refreshing to return here and feel the Spirit which prevails here. The Hope, and Joy, and Peace! I'm glad to be part if the family! If ever I need re-confirmation of the inaccuracy of Adventism, all I need to do is observe the spirit of contention and bickering and legalism that reigns there. I'm longing for that Rapture!!! Dennis<>< | ||
| Kim |
[Rev. 20:4-6 talks about the first resurrection when the "souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God" come to life and reign with Christ a thousand years. The wicked dead do not come to life until after this 1000-year reign.] So when we die, we sleep, until the rapture? I struggle with the rapture and what happens when we die. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Kim. I struggled with what happens when we die for months, gradually changing my understanding as I became more and more familiar with the scriptures. Jesus said to Martha when Lazarus died, "I am the reusrrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." (John 11:25-26) How does one live if he dies, and how does one never die? Jesus was speaking about spiritual life. As Adventists we believed that death was a physical thing. When Adam and Eve sinned, we believed that they sentenced themselves to death and BEGAN to die at that moment. Death entered their biological functions. Jesus shed new light on that understanding, however, when he talked to Nicodemus about being born again. Being born again is not a metaphor for believing in Jesus. It is a spiritual reality; we literally become connected to God eternally through the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Adam and Eve DID die the day they sinned; they died spiritually. Their spirits (not the breath in their noses, as we were taught spirit meant, but the part of them that communicated with and knew God) died. They were literally cut off from their connection with God. When we accept Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit, we become born again. We are quite literally new people with new understandings of reality and eternity, and we become eternally connected with God. We quite literally will never die, even if our bodies do die. Read 2 Corinthians 5. Paul talks about the fact that we are groaning and burdened while we are in our bodily "tent" because we long for our heavenly dwelling. We live in a body. The body is not all of us. The essential us inhabits a body. Paul says, "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.ÖWe are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it." (2 Cor. 5:6-9) It's not just a figure of speech when 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 20 talk about souls being with Jesus. When we are born again, we come to spiritual life. Our spirits are regenerated and connected to God for eternity. That's why spiritual things become increasingly clear, and why the Bible begins to make more and more sense and to seem more and more unified and consistent. Spirtual things are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2), not intellectually discerned. We become able to know the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16), the Holy Spirit who dwells in us and communicates spiritual truth to our spirits. It is a most wonderful reality; the part of us that knows Jesus will never die! Of course, I don't know exactly what that will be like--Paul says he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord--but I know that nothing can separate me from the love of Jesus, not even death. Our souls already touch eternity! Soul sleep is unbiblical, as far as I can see. Again, the Bible is ambiguous about the specifics of death and what happens afterward. No one can say absolutely what will happen and how. But the Bible is quite definite that when we know Christ, we are given at that moment eternal life. We are not just promised eternal life, which is the Adventist take on it, but we have it at that moment, and death is not a hiatus in our spirits being with the Spirit of God. Praise God for redemption and new birth and eternal life! Sometimes I am overwhelmed with gratitude and amazement and awe. Colleen P.S. Good to hear from you again, Dennisrainwater! | ||
| Lori |
Hi,Kim, It is difficult to comprehend the difference between our physical body and our soul. As humans we can not see these two things has distinctive. Go back to the creation of Adam. God formed his physical body from the dust. His physical body was formed but there was no life in it UNTIL God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and THEN the Adam became a living being. He wasn't alive until God breathed into his nostrils the breathes of life. It is written after the fall, "for dust you are and to dust you will return". What part of the man came from the dust??? The body. We are promised ETERNAL life when we believe in Jesus Christ. What does the word eternal mean? It means it never ends. If we believe in Jesus Christ and then our life is terminated (even briefly) then God is a liar because he said we would have ETERNAL, never ending, life!!! I think Paul had a complete understanding of what happened after physical death. He seemed to look at his death as an advancement!! His words in Philippians do not sound like the words of a man that believes that upon his death he will lie dormant in the ground for an undetermined amount of time. "For to me (this is the way that I think), to live is Christ (if I keep on living I will keep on living for Christ) but to die is gain". How could lying 6 ft. under be of gain to Paul? Dying will be an advancement but if I keep on living IN THE BODY this will mean fruitful labor for me--Oh, which one whall I choose? I don't know!!! Why would Paul be torn between living in the body and being totally unconscious in the grave? Because----I desire to depart (physically die) and be with Christ, which is better by far. Why is he torn? If he dies he is going to be with Christ. He has eternal life!!! His life did not end when his physical body died and it returned to dust. He was simply advanced into the next stage of his life--he entered into the presence of God!!!! | ||
| Lydell |
Kim, there's something else interesting we learn from Phillipians 1:23 where Paul says, he has a "desire to depart and be with Christ". The word "depart" is also used for pulling up tent pegs or a ship's anchor. What are you about to do when you have accomplished either of those things? You are moving on or setting sail to a new port, aren't you? An SDA friend was fond of quoting Ps. 116:15 when the topic of death came up, "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints". That use to always niggle at my thinking. We know it greives the Lord when His children don't spend time communicating with Him daily. So how in the world could it be a precious thing for the Lord to have fellowship with one of his children cut off at death? It makes no sense at all! Kim, do a little study of looking up all the verses that say that the Christian HAS eternal life. Even John 3:16 tells you that you won't perish. |
