| Author |
Message |
Kme
Registered user
Username: Kme
Post Number: 54
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 1:05 pm: |     |
Sharon,
What is Tikkun? By the way, I went to your website last night and read about your book. I'm very interested in reading it. I'm going to check at one of our local Christian book stores for it.
Kme
|
Sharon2
Registered user
Username: Sharon2
Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 1:54 pm: | |
Kme,
Tikkun is a network of about 15 Messianic Jewish Congregations in the United States and some others that are international, especially in Israel. These congregations are similar in theology, in style of worship and in purpose. Their office is in the Washington DC area. A man named Dan Juster put this organization together and is its overseer. Each congregation that belongs to this organization has chosen to come under its umbrella. It mainly provides guidance and some cohesiveness between congregations. The flavor of each congregation is most strongly influenced by the local congregational leadership.
You can find out a lot about Messianic Judism by going to the website for my congregation and exploring some of the links. brithadasha.org.
I have found that a lot of ex-adventists are very comfortable in Messianic Jewish Congregations. My observation is that about 10% of their membership has an SDA background.
Their evangelistic thrust is to the Jew first but also to anyone. The Lord has never sent a Jewish person to me, but every person from an SDA background that comes through the doors, he sends to me. Only an ex Adventist understands the issues that ex Adventists have to deal with.
God is so good at matching people, that the first time that I visited Brit Hadasha, I took a seat and a lady that I did not know, in obedience to the Holy Spirit, reached over and hugged me. Turns out that she had been an Adventist earlier in her life.
So just like Jewish people need people who understand their culture, so Adventists need people who understand their culture before they can move into the freedom of Messiah Jesus.
Sharon |
Kme
Registered user
Username: Kme
Post Number: 62
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
Thank you Sharon for explaining about Tikkun. I know some SDA's that attend a Messianic Jewish (sort-of, they really have kinda started their own)group. But they still are vegetarian, they don't have lamb for Passover even. They have juice instead of wine every week with their fellowship bread (I don't know what you call it). etc... Most of them have formally left the SDA church, but some aren't comfortable with actually removing their names and claim they still believe in the SDA doctrines but add the Holy Days etc... to it. They use the Holy names and dance at their services and study Torah. I'm not too sure what to think about it, it doesn't really matter anyway because it's not in my town.
I did visit your churches website and tried to listen to a couple of sermons but had technical trouble and couldn't. I might visit it again. Thanks.
Kme
|
Sharon2
Registered user
Username: Sharon2
Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 6:27 pm: | |
There is a lot of freedom to be who you are comfortable being in the Lord. Vegetarianism is ok as long as it isn't a way to get to heaven. We stil eat a lot of the vegetarian foods. We grew up on them and we like the taste. There are many people in all faiths including Messianic Judaism who use grape juice instead of alcohol. At the various occassions that call for the "fruit of the vine" we usually offer both. The important thing is to understand the difference between adding burdens to your life and moving in freedom. What is freedom to one can be misused and become a burden to someone else.
When I begn participating in the feasts, I was surprised to find out that since 70 AD Jews do not eat lamb at Passover. Because there is no Temple in which to perform the ritual of slaying the Passover lamb, there is no Passover lamb. Chicken is the most common dish. In Israel, the most observant Jews will get a live chicken and swing it by its neck over their heads as they proclaim that their sins are on that chicken. They then kill it, cook it, and eat it.
Isn't it amazing how strongly ingrained is the need for blood to cover sins!
Sharon |
Kme
Registered user
Username: Kme
Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 7:07 pm: | |
The chicken really suprises me. Can't imagine why they would think that covers their sins. That could be a discussion unto itself! Interesting stuff.
Kme
|
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 611
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 9:56 pm: | |
In the SDA church I never and that means never in any publication or in any sermon or talk during Sabbath School or in any other venue ever heard/read any reference to the temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D. I have no idea how come the SDA's don't ever mention this event as it is a very profound event in Jewish history. I have my theory on this though, which I will shasre with you all now. We all know the SDA interpertation of the beast, the dreaded 666. Apprently in 70 A.D. Nero was the ruler and it was under his rulership that the temple was destroyed. They had even sacraficied a pig on the alter, a totally abhorrant thing to do in a Jewish temple. In the 666 prophecy it says that this prophecy will be fullfilled soon. Generally Christians uderstand the 666/beast prophecy to having been fullfilled with the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. This, then would be totally contrary to the SDA interpertation that the 666/beast is the pope/Catholic church and is yet to be fullfilled with the upcoming universal Sunday law. For some reason this fullfillment of prophecy gets mentioned a lot in Lutheran sermons and writings. As with the prophecy in Isaiah fortelling the Messiah the Lutherans (and Catholics and other Christians) use this 666/beast prophecy as evidence that the Bible prophicies really do come true as fortold. My mom is 83 years old, was raised SDA. I recently asked her if she thought there was any significance to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. She answered that she had heard of that a long time ago but she'd never been interested in it enough to pursue learning more about it. I can only figure she was not interested in learnig about it beause SDA publications and preachers don't mention it. I have been trying to learn more about the temple destruction. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 351
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:48 am: | |
I've never heard the 666/beast prophecy being fulfilled in the destruction of the temple. The only prophecy I've heard that fulfilled was:
Dan 9:26 ěThen after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined."
Beast/666 is still future to everything I've ever heard....?? |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 352
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:51 am: | |
urgh! I hate it when that happens. Ignore the garbage in the Bible passage as I copied and pasted. For some reason it adds that stuff when I hit post if I don't copy it to word first then recopy it here. Some day I'll figure it out!
|
Sharon2
Registered user
Username: Sharon2
Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 10:44 am: | |
The apostle John received the vision of the Book of Revelation when he was a very old man, a prisoner on the Isle of Patmos. This occured after 70AD so the destruction of Herod's Temple and Jerusalem could not be related to 666. But in Daniel 9:26 it talks about the Anointed One being cut off (Anointed One is another word for Messiah) and then the people of the ruler destroying the city. In Jewish thinking the city is always Jerusalem. We know Jesus died and about 40 years later Jerusalem was destroyed not to become a city again until prophecy was filled and Israel miraculously became a nation again. I think it was 1948. Of course Adventism does not believe that that event has anything to do with Bible prophecy or end time events.
Sharon |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 342
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 7:41 pm: | |
Nero is certainly a possibility for the sixth king of Revelation 17:10 as are Galba and Vespasian. However, Nero reigned from 54 - 68 A.D. and was not in power at the time of the destruction of the temple. That dubious distinction would go to Vespasian (69-79 A.D.). It is quite likely that John's origianl recipients would have understood this to be a reference to a ceasar, but that does not rule out another future fulfillment as well.
The date for the writing of Revelation is not settled and is a point of hot debate among scholars. The majority view is a late date of around 90 AD, however a number of scholars have made convincing arguments for an early date prior to 70 AD. If the early date position is correct than Revelation becomes John's version of the Olivet Discourse. Christ's Olivet Discourse, predicting the destruction of the temple, is present in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but conspicuously absent from the Gospel of John.
None of this is cut and dry so I try to avoid being dogmatic about it. It is EXCEEDINGLY difficult material that spans all of scripture and can be interpreted in a number of different ways all within the pale of orthodoxy.
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 343
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 8:13 pm: | |
Self Correction....this line should read:
"The majority view is a late date of around 95 AD" |
Sharon2
Registered user
Username: Sharon2
Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 9:33 pm: | |
When you start researching the first century BC and AD you find that there are several theories on dates for just about every event, historical and Biblical. Regarding dates, nothing is known for sure. I've done a lot of research on the 1st century for my writing. I avoid dating events.
I've learned that it is all right to live with uncertainty regarding the past and regarding the future. I do not have to be certain about the order of events leading to the second coming. I do not have to be certain about the state of the dead. I do not have to be certain about the interpretation of every prophecy. I only have to be certain about my relationship with Jesus.
Sharon |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 355
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 7:15 am: | |
Amen, Sharon! |
Kme
Registered user
Username: Kme
Post Number: 69
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:35 am: | |
Well said Sharon. All the other stuff is interesting but I think if we were really meant to figure it all out, it would be as clear and simple as the Gospel of Jesus. A little child can understand that. Few children know Greek and Hebrew etc... What does prophecy of end-time events really do for us? It could be over for any of us this next minute and it wouldn't matter who was preaching what if we haven't been walking with Jesus. Guess I'm just not intellectual enough to figure it out and it takes too much energy and time away from the other gifts of the Spirit God has given me. I'll get off my soap-box now.
Have a blessed day.
Kme |
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page