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Archive through June 21, 2002Sherry220 6-21-02  1:57 pm
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Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 5:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hannah,

Congratulations on your INFANTicipation! Girls are very special in our family--we have three daughters (all adults now). As the song says "thank heaven for little girls; for without them, what would little boys do?"

My wife and I were very pro-abortion as Seventh-day Adventists. Although we were never a part of any abortion decision, we wrongly reasoned that not every pregnancy is God's will. Some of the most conservative Adventists are staunchly pro-abortion. I agree with Colleen, that behind all the rhetoric, the SDA stance of downplaying the sanctity of life is the result of their not believing in the eternal reality of the human soul. Paradoxically, the SDA-version of "commandment-keepers" do not view the prohibition against murder as fervently as their foremost concern about the legal Sabbath. Historically speaking, I concur that the anti-Catholic stance in Adventism has been another contributing factor in their remaining notably silent on this moral issue.

Adventist hospitals used to be widely known for accommodating abortion procedures. Interestingly, due to their recent fiscal survival strategies, the Adventist Health Systems have affiliated with some Catholic hospitals (i.e., SDA hospitals in Colorado and Missouri). Consequently, these merged Adventist hospitals have now discontinued all abortion procedures to enable their continued affiliation with the Sisters of Charity Foundation. Money talks loudly again!

Being that Ellen White was silent on this topic, contemporary Adventism lacks the moral fortitude to advance beyond its Ellenesque past.

In awe of the Lord of life,

Dennis J. Fischer
Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider)
Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am a long time browser, and new poster. Because of the integrity and credibility with which this website is maintained, I need to comment on misinformation that was posted concerning Loma Linda Univ. Medical Center, abortion, stem cell research and Focus on the Family.
1. LLUMC does not do and has never done stem cell research from aborted fetuses.
2. Last Friday, June 21, I spent a half hour on the phone to my friends at Focus on the Family while they searched their archives. They assured me they had never published anything about LLUMC concerning abortion or stem cell research. They requested that any concerns be directed to their research department and they would be glad to address them.
3. For abortions to be lucrative (Father, forgive them) they have to be done in a high volume outpatient facility that moves them in and out quickly,primarily on a cash basis. This can't be done in an in-patient hospital setting.
4. Loma Linda has its problems, but abortion is not one of them. There are many evangelical Christ-followers working there (a few are even SDA!). It is the only Christian medical school left in America and I believe God's hand of protection is still on them.
On a personal note, as a "former", when I started attending a Bible-based church, I was clueless about the abortion issue. It frankly had never been an issue. I was fortunate to have a mature christian friend who mentored me in my new life as a born again christian woman. She explained standing up for the sanctity of life and for those who do not yet have a voice.
Abortion was one more of those "how could I have spent _____ years in church and in higher education and not known that?"
Colleen posted that abortion is destroying something with eternal implications. That is so true, and that is why abortion also brings painful long term consequences to the mother, the man who is the father, the Doctor who aborts the child and the nurses who assist.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insideoutsider, Thank you for your post. I'm thankful that you have the facts about this issue re: LLUMC and abortion and Focus on the Family. You're right; we want to maintain our credibility.

I'm glad you mentioned that you believe God's hand of protection is over LLU and LLUMC for the time being because of the many born-again Christians who work there. That is a viewpoint I had not thought of. I know you're right; MANY non-SDA born-again Christ-followers work there as well as some SDA's who are committed to knowing Jesus and truth. It reminds me of God telling Abraham that if Sodom and Gomorrah had even ten people in them who followed him, he would have saved the cities.

I believe that God is at work in Loma Linda, both revealing the true nature of Adventism and calling to himself those who are honest and truth-seeking. It is one of the biggest if not the biggest SDA center in the world, and God definitely has protected his people who are there.

Yes, as you said, insideoutsider, Loma Linda definitely has its problems. But I do believe that God is actively working to wake up Advenitsts, and I can see from my limited perspective that one way he does that is by working quitely and lovingly from the inside through his people whom he has strategically placed there.

Thanks for the information and the insight.

Thankful to Jesus for truth,
Colleen
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In that case I regret having thrown out the magazine!

Am I wrong on my memory of the magazine the article was in? That's the only explanation I can come up with. Does Focus not have archives back thru the 80's? I don't know, I've tinkered with their website and can't get articles back that far on anything, and that almost certainly my lack of computer savy.

The article I read was not directly about Loma Linda. They were mentioned in passing as being involved in the research. The implication was that fetuses were being used. I made a phone call to the magazine. The person I spoke to was apologetic that I was upset by what I had read but stood by their article. Were they wrong, after all, in their facts?

I wrote a letter to the denominational president at the time. The reply I received back was a short, obvious form letter from someone in his office along the lines of "we'll check into that and get back to you." We never received another word of response. Did their final letter get lost in the mail?

Go figure, the things I needed to hold on to I threw out. The things I don't need, seem to never get thrown out. Wish I could give you guys the proof of this one. My memory is poor in lots of things, but it's not that bad!
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lydell, maybe a phone call to Focus would yield an article. I don't personally know about it, but I know you're not making this up! I also know that inside/outsider has some first-hand information. Perhaps you can make some further comments, inside/outsider?

And I'm not surprised that you didn't hear back from the GC president, by the way! That's such a convenient way to deal with someone asking potentially embarassing questions!

I suspect that the scope of abortions done at Loma Linda probably fits into the categories mentioned in the Church's statement on abortion: therapeutic, birth defects, rape or incest. Whether or not elective abortions are done (not that the above aren't also elective!) may be more limited if there are any. None of this means that some Adventist doctors don't do elective abortions at other venues, but not all would do so.

For me, however, the bottom line in all this is that the Church does not take a stand against abortion. In their statement on the website mentioned in Jerry's post earlier on this thread, they admit that abortions are allowable in the circumstances I just mentioned. Beyond that, they say, they don't want to be anyone's conscience. (I find that relatively amusing; they're quite a conscience when it comes to Sabbath, diet, etc!)

Whether or not Adventist hospitals are doing lots of abortions or fetal research is not even as significant as the fact that the church does not truly value life. It does not value life because it does not believe that human life includes a soul which will spend eternity in one of two places. I've come to believe that the Adventist view on the absence of an eternal soul or spirit is a serious heresy. It has grave implications for the nature of Christ and ultimately impacts our belief in whether or not our own works contribute to our salvation.

Isn't it ironic that a church that does not believe in the sanctity of all human life would spend such a large portion of its effort on keeping the body healthy? I guess it makes sense; in their understanding the body is all there is!

Colleen
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, you are probably right that the folks at Focus could help me come up with the article. But to tell you the truth, it's just not worth the time to me.

I think another problem with not thinking we have a soul/spirit is that it certainly makes facing death very different. I have literally seen that before my eyes in watching my dad and my friend's mother die. I was just struck so forcefully with this. What a huge difference there is between saying, "in a moment I'll be in Jesus arms" and "in a moment I'll be dead."
Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider)
Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the most important point here is that whatever Lydell read, God said to her, "Thats it, its time to come out". For me, it was the suicide of my brother-in-law that was the last straw heading me towards the door.

I think it was a blessing that you,Lydell, had such a sensativity for the sanctity of life. A person raised SDA from the cradle usually does not have that. Praise God for the on-going teaching of the Holy Spirit!
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 6:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insideoutsider, I'm curious why the suicide was a push out the door. Would you be willing to share your thoughts? I'm sorry to hear you have gone thru that rotten experience. The pain it inflicts is awful. If only folks could realize before they went thru with it that there are people who care for them very deeply. But I think that is part of the insanity, you know? My brother committed suicide 7 or 8 years ago.
Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider)
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I said it was the last straw, in a pile that had been growing for years. And I'm not referring to "someone has slighted her" but a growing sense that doctrinally something was terribly wrong. I had already reached the point that I looked around me and said if this is what heaven is about, I think I prefer hell. You realize that hell was simply instant annililation or "quick fry" for someone raised SDA.
I had come to this point in my thinking when my brother-in-law died. He was a brilliant, gifted, albeit troubled man. He had sought the "best" the world offered psychiatric help (which I realize now was Godless) as well as spiritual help. All his life he had been a "good" SDA, active in teaching,music etc.,and when he went to seek wisdom from his church, he was pretty much blown off. He realized that they were no more capable of giving him hope than the most elite psychotherapist in LA. That was the beginning of the end. If I sound like I am blaming the church for his death, than I apologize, that is wrong. But I can't help but wonder what would have happened if he could have gotten sound Christian therapy and had not at the same time been enmeshed in a system that could not provide hope.
Its been a long time now, and I have come to know a personal and loving God, and I believe that my brother-in-law is with him. But the aftershocks and ramifications to his now-adult children have been considerable.
I guess we have gotten away from the abortion issue, hey,Richard maybe you need to start a "last straw" thread. Anyway, thank you for asking I realize that just writing my thought out was therapeutic.
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for sharing. And yes, it does help to get the thought out. Actually, when we keep the thought locked away in the darkness, it seems to give satan something to tap dance with.

Yeah, a "last straw" thread sounds pretty good.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Insideoutsider--Thank you for sharing. And thank you for your gentle, understanding spirit.

Colleen
Bob
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Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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