| Author | Message | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
Do you get the impression Adventists take less of a stand (or no stand at all) on abortion as compared to mainstream Christians? This is the case in my husband's family, and he said his family is fairly typical. His sister had an abortion, and his father (who is a doctor) wanted her to abort her other children because he thought she was too young when she had them. I grew up in an extremely pro-life family and abortion is something I cannot even imagine Christians justifying. (also I'm pregnant, just thought I'd say that) --Hannah | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I think it is unwise to make sweeping generalizations as both you and your husband may have done. Others may have better experience on this subject. However, in reviewing some public survey data about religion and abortion, I would suggest the following thoughts. * I would be extremely surprised if a majority of Adventists support abortion. * That does not exclude the possibility that enclaves or areas of Adventists tolerate it. * Even in the most fundamental, evangelical, born-again denominations you are likely to find anywhere from 5 to 20 percent in favor of allowing abortions. That is not to say that they would reveal it to their fellow church members. However, some would make that choice by their actions * On this forum, the percentage is likely very close to zero. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
congratulations hannah! is this your first? regardless, what a blessing....love and prayers, carol | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
My first, (woo hoo) and my husband seemed to think it was more widespread. He said it had to do with the aversion Adventists have of government telling them what to do. Do Adventist publications speak out against it? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
You must be very happy. Congratulations. Here is a link with the official policy of the church found on their web site. It certainly gives a nod to personal freedom, but generally disapproves except in extraordinary cases. Do not worry about what your husbandís church thinks. Just be as thrilled as I suspect you are with Godís gift of love in this child. http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/main_guide1.html | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Adventists do not take an official stand against abortion. In fact, many abortions are performed at thier medical institutions. Many individual Adventists do not support abortion, but that position is the result of their own consiences rather than the church's position. In fact, I used to have difficulty understanding the flap against abortion before I understood the nature of humanity. I believe the reason the church does not take a firm stand against it is that Adventists do not believe humans are born with an eternal spirit or soul. The real Adventist position is that humans are like animals in terms of eternal spirits. When we understand, however, that we are born with spirits--dead, to be sure, and needing to be made alive by the Holy Spirit--life looks very different. Abortion really is destroying something with eternal implications. Adventists do not believe that. Now, how God deals with dead baies is something I don't understand. I do know, however, that Christ's atonement covered all, and he knows us from eternity. I am confident that God deals justly and mercifully with dead infants. But it's true; Adventists do not have an official position against abortion, and indeed often perform them. Praise God that he values us more than we value ourselves, and that he has truly created us in his image--completel with spirits that can be connected to him for eternity! Colleen | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
I'll chime in with my two-cents' worth. As an SDA young-adult, I had essentially no conviction regarding abortion, and truly no background with which to have formed one. And I grew up within a very conservative SDA home. I had essentially no conviction regarding fornication either, as the only "moral reason why" I had been given not to indulge in such behavior was that Ellen White and the Bible both condemned it... I can remember consciously deciding that this wasn't a good enough reason, and would gladly jump into a sexual relationship, given the opportunity. Because of this, when I was twenty one, my girlfriend became pregnant. While this was almost the unpardonable sin, my girlfriend's VERY SDA parents apparently didn't think of either abortion or lying as very serious violations of God's will, as they undertook to persuade me to convince their daughter to abort our baby. Ironically, while I did not have any decided conviction against abortion, I really did know in my heart that it was wrong and actually didn't want to do that. Yet, I could not find any of my (almost entirely SDA) support network who had the courage or conviction to tell me that it was wrong! I was truly seeking some firm counsel in that direction. Her parents' lie entered the scene when they told me that her doctor was desperately worried, as he felt that her life was in serious jeopardy if she followed through with the pregnancy. Upon that ground, I almost forced her to have the abortion. (She didn't feel it was right either.) In the years that have followed, I am amazed at the incredible life that God has blessed me with -- in spite of my past sins. I now have a fantastic wife who loves me very much, and three of the most beautiful, adoring daughters you can imagine. Yet, I still regularly recall with horror the fact that there should have been a child -- one who never had the chance to live and become what God had planned for him or her. Like you, Colleen, I don't know what God does with these little lives, yet I believe in my heart that I'll meet this child one day... I still struggle with resentment toward my almost-in-laws for lying to me in order to accomplish their desires... (Their daughter was not, in fact, in any danger. They just didn't want to face the disgrace of her having this baby outside of the proper setting.) I am so grateful to a God who is large enough to be in absolute control -- and that He works all things together for good. And that He is a God of redemption and restoration!! It's all about HIM, Den<>< | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
As an addendum: I don't condemn her parents, as it may sound above. They had no real moral grounding either -- and if that shoe were on my foot (and if I still had found no more foundation in God's word than either I or they had back then), I'd prefer not to have to face the shame and long-term ramifications either. Yet, the longer-term results of our collective decisions have turned out much more harmful, I believe. That girlfriend's life has been a continuous string of broken relationships, I've heard. I'm certain that is because she still has no moral compass. She still doesn't have Christ... Oh, that we could turn back the hands of time... Clinging to the Cross, Den<>< | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Hannah, Great question, thanks for asking. "Do you get the impression Adventists take less of a stand (or no stand at all) on abortion as compared to mainstream Christians?" The answer is YES. They, (meaning the official/ organization) do not promote or teach about the sanctity of life. Many Adventists do believe abortion is wrong, but they really do not have a deep conviction against it. To them it is a government intrusion in people's lives. Actually they would rather promote proAbortion candidates for government offices, than an evangelical true-blue Believer. The rationale circles right back to their fears about Religious Liberty and Sabbath worship. They must protect themselves at any cost by any means. They are on guard to defend themselves in the end time when the Legislature tries to pass the "National Sunday Laws." Many adventists (laypeople)are confused. They even get angry and criticize other christians for taking a stand against abortion. I personally know elders and pastors who have been chastised severely by the conference officials for linking with proLife groups to educate the public about the ills of being proAbortion. They were warned against meddling and questioning the church's vague stance about the issue. While the church may have an official statement on the issue, it is mere lip service. Ellen White was silent on the issue, so it is a non issue. Besides, the church was called out to proclaim the SABBATH not MURDER. I guess people take their cue from that and think abortion is really no big deal. Adventists cannot be on the same side with the Catholics condemning Abortions, that's too risky  ) Colleen, I agree with your statements, "...I believe the reason the church does not take a firm stand against it is that Adventists do not believe humans are born with an eternal spirit or soul."... spirits. When we understand, however, that we are born with spirits--dead, to be sure, and needing to be made alive by the Holy Spirit--life looks very different." Amen! Psalm 139 God knows us before we were formed in the womb. BMorgan | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Dennis, Thank you for your story. I'm sure that has to be a very difficult thing. After seeing the effects on a couple of friends and a close relative I thank God I never had to go through it. I never told you all here, but I seriously did not want my last child. I even scheduled for an abortion. I was divorced-dumb me- and getting along just fine in my distructive single life, in fact, I had an appointment for a tubal two weeks after I found out!!! Obviously I didn't show for the appointment and my two year old son is such a blessing! hmmm all things DO work out for good, even though I didn't love the Lord then, He knew I was coming around. Praise Him for His goodness! Congratulations Hannah!!!! | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
I'd have to agree about the abortion thing not being an important issue to the SDA church. I've found the same attitudes perpetuated through the churches I have been in....I also remember the vice-president of the academy here in Michigan had his daughter get an abortion when she got pregnant out of wedlock. It was far more important to cover up the sin that caused it, then to reach out in grace to a baby on the way. I don't know if it's about the soul issue. I think it is more about no grace, and keeping things looking "cleaned up" in our lives. Congratulations Hannah! It is such a fun experience!!! | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
Here is the official SDA position on abortion, as I see it: "Ellen White didn't say anything about it, therefore it is not an issue. Just don't perform one on the Holy Sabbath Day." Sorry if I sound cynical. I am. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I think you guys are missing one of the big reasons why the church isn't against abortions. It's because the SDA hospitals perform them....money money money money. Loma Linda hospital was a very early leader in stem cell research coming from, you guessed it, aborted fetuses. This was reported in Focus on the Family magazine MANY years ago. I called the magazine at the time to get a bit more info. Was just in the middle of the process of realizing that the SDA church stank, and still hoping to find a loophole.....like maybe they were using fetuses that had been aborted because the mother's life was in danger. (As if that would make it okay!!!) The lady I spoke to on the phone was tactful, undoubtedly realizing my stupidity. Later I brought the subject up to a nurse who was in our SDA church. She looked at me like I was really clueless. And then informed me that the abortions were exactly why she had quit her job at another SDA hospital. It moved my process of leaving the church along real much faster. Dennis, would a loving and fair God condemn to death one who was entirely incapable of understanding or choosing salvation? The babies who die are surely in no different category than those who are alive but profoundly retarded. Can I give you a scripture on that? No, can't think of one off the top of my head. All I can do is point you to the character of your heavenly Father. He knows us when we are being knit together in our mother's womb. Does that mean he has to wait until the process moves further forward than what your child was? Or is He capable of knowing from the first moment. What happens to them then in heaven. I certainly don't have a clue. But, as you have said, you already know in your heart. And I'm betting that what you are saying is that you know it with every cell of your body. And you know it because you know HIM! Oh Hannah, may God RICHLY bless your pregnancy and this child you are carrying. What a precious thing. I'm so glad you have shared your good news here! So when are you due, and how have you been feeling so far? | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well Lydell, I disagree with you on that. Catholic hospitals have just as much opportunity to make money from abortions if they were a pro-abortion church. It's not the money...it's faulty theology behind the money making I honestly believe. And Freeatlast, I don't think your cynical at all. I think that holds a lot of truth. If Ellen said abortions were wrong, the church would stand there too. When we look to men for our spiritual grounding and not to Christ, the morals and integrity all get muddled. I was going to suggest the same thing you did as well. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hm, I'd have to say you're right Sherry! Curious irony there that the Catholics won't do them but the SDA's will. sad. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I can't find the story right now, but wasn't it David in the Bible who's baby had died and he said something to the effect of it going to heaven? Boy, that was really vague, I will look for it. | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
Thank you all for your congratulations!! I am about five months along, due Nov. 8, and I am so thankful my Bethany Cherie will be growing up in a nonAdventist home (I found out today she is a girl) I forget where it was on this forum where it was questioned what kind of religion would ingrain itself through terrorizing the minds of the most innocent. I was so worried for a while that would happen. Anyways, not to make you all jealous, but my pregnancy has been blissfully trouble-free, no morning sickness and no maternity clothes yet (such ugly things) I'm a bit thin, so I guess she has plenty of other places to go besides out! I wanted to name her Bethany Ellen, but David didn't think that was very funny. Interesting discussion! I have enjoyed reading your responses. Here is an interesting little wrench to throw into the works. I read recently that about 50% of all conceptions never live until birth. Do they all go to Heaven? If that is the case, then Heaven will be mostly populated by those who have never even taken a breath of oxygen on planet Earth. --Hannah | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
oh hannah, little girls are wonderful!!!! you are so blessed! this is such a special time in your life - enjoy every second of it. my little girl is now 16, driving a car, and making me crazy at times. but still my precious sweet girl. i will keep you in prayer, and please keep us posted along the way. on a side note, i had a stillborn baby boy (he'd be 15 years old now) at about my fifth month of pregnancy, and am LONGING to see him in heaven! love and prayers to all, carol | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Wow Carol, been there. Our only daughter would be 23 now. I wonder if you had the same experience that we did? At the moment that we held her, we became just incredibly intensely aware that this child had truly been human before she had ever been born. No doubts whatsoever. And Carol, parents DO survive the teenage years. ha Hannah, I'm SO glad you have had zero problems! And how excellent not to need those maternity clothes yet, 'cause they DO get tiresome before the birth. You are in for such a remarkable experience. When you hold little Bethany for the very first time, you are going to be so absolutely astounded at how intensely you love her. Just in that instant, bam, there it is. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
In regards to texts, I'd like to share two that I'm aware of that talk of children in a pre-moral development stage: Deuteronomy 1:39 "And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad, -- they will enter the land." and Isaiah 7:15,16 "He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste." I was sort-of surprised by these texts when I first learned of them through a child development seminar. But I think if a) Jesus Christ did pay for all sins, past - present - future, and it was finished on Calvary, and b) babies who are fearfully and wonderfully made in their mother's womb who have not come to moral development of choosing right from wrong, it is pretty safe to say they are redeemed by the Lord's Blood. At least that is my opinion on what I hear the Word saying. And congratulations Hannah! Children are an awesome gift. Even though sometimes they can drive me nuts, I wouldn't trade them for the world. Take pictures galore, cuz that first year they change so incredibly. You would never think it possible, but by the time they're 3 or older you can't hardly picture them as babies any more except by picture...at least that's how it's been with me. I got two kiddlings. God bless!! There are some AWESOME, AWESOME journals at the Christian bookstores for writing all your experiences and feelings as you go through pregnancy. I wrote alot of letters to my kids while pregnant, wrote the feelings of feeling the first kick, baby hiccups, things like that....and it's fun to read now, and I look forward to sharing it more and more with my kids as they grow older. God bless, sherry |
