| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Violet, I'm glad that you are here too! :) Just remember to hang on to your faith in Jesus Christ. Especially when around those that are still where we came from (legalism et al). Don't lose heart and pray for those that still have the veil on their eyes. Remember always that Jesus Christ promised you that He will NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU! For me that is most comforting. I know that when I spend too much time around stout SDAs, my faith starts falling or so it seems. Sometimes, I just have to remove myself from them for a week or two and soak up the Word of God. It has taken me time to realize just how draining it was on me to try to keep up with all the many different Bible studies with the SDAs. They were in hopes of converting me of course. But eventually, I realized that to continually be around those that are not of like faith and who are still very much into legalism, heresy, doctrines taught by men, deception and all the rest of the negatives, brought me to depression at very many times so far. That's how I've been discovering my limits as to how much time I can spend listening to it all and trying to refute it, in my limited capacity. So it is good to realize that you have limits and stand by them. Let yourself have rest, especially of the spiritual nature! Look to Jesus Christ and know that He is WITH you ALWAYS and that one day, He is coming back to take you to your new home too! What a day that will be!! In the meantime, don't lose heart, never fear, God is with you. I guess I'm sensing some despondency in you because of my repeating myself. Hope you don't mind, I just wanted to encourage you to remember your Savior and the HOPE that He gives us and also, to encourage you to take time out for yourself and simply study His Word. Read the Gospel of John and 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, the Psalms...these are all great books! Also Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, Ephesians! The freedom God has bestowed on us! The HOPE! Your old woman is gone and replaced with a new woman and with that comes all kinds of benefits. But the trials will come, we are told that they will, especially if you look to Jesus Christ only! Read 1 and 2 Peter and some of those books. We are told to expect trials and tests. Thank God for them! Because we are being refined by God Himself! Blessings on your head Violet and remember that the Lord is the Lifter up of your Head! That's Scripture too, only I can't quote for beans but it is in the book of Psalms I believe. If you would like, email me at Lampdot@aol.com Exchanging of our similar trials and victories through Jesus Christ is always helpful. God Bless you richly, DtB your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Sherry2, You are so right about David. I read the Psalms and other parts of the Bible where Saul is constantly trying to kill him and wonder those same things about what David must have thought. He was the apple of God's eye, yet I know from reading the Psalms that David has his moments that he thought God may have left him. And yet, God was there with him all along. Sometimes, for me I've felt like God has abandoned me and it's a horrible feeling! This lasts from a day to several days and one time it lasted for several months while attending the SDA Church and trying to obtain perfection. It's no wonder I felt like God had left me, I was trying to save myself! Praise God that He finally knocked some sense into this hard head of mine. And Praise God that He gave us His Word to read and Praise Him that we can pray to Him! It seems like, most folks think faith is easy. However, for me, it is a struggle sometimes and that is why I believe that our chief work is faith. Without faith, we have nothing. And we must remember too, that we are all given "the measure of faith" by God Himself. We need to always trust in that fact. Seems too that there are always people, circumstances et-cetera that will come in and just knock us flat to the ground in our faith. That's when I used to think God had forgotten me or that I wasn't good enough or this or that. But all along, I can now see, that God was there and whether it was God testing me or satan casting doubts in me, it was a struggle that and still is at times. Less and less but I will not boast because tomorrow is a new day and with that new day, I have no clue what will come my way. One day at a time, sometimes on moment at a time we need to fight the good fight of faith. But I'm always remembering too, that our Lord Jesus is the Author and the Finisher of our Faith! What a relief to know that He loves us so. Thank you for your post today as it was beneficial for me and uplifting. Good to see you posting and hope to see some more soon! God Bless you always and forever, DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus, our God | ||
| Colleentinker |
Violet, Shereen, Val, Denise--I want to add my support to you and my praise to God for the way he holds us up when we walk through life's struggles. I understand your feelings, Violet, about not wanting to talk to your Adventist friends. As long as the veil covers their hearts, there really isn't any way they can understand the grace you've found or the freedom Jesus gives you or the light that shines truth on your old beliefs. Oswald Chambers makes the point that our real work as followers of Christ is praying. My experience is teaching me that prayer really is the only thing we can do in these kinds of difficult situations with people who do not want to embrace truth. God in his mercy can and does move in ways of which we have no idea. He gives us his mind and wisdom through the Holy Spirit in us, and he surrounds us with his love, reassuring us that we are not alone and are not condemned in his eyes. This leaving Adentism is one of life's hardest transitions. But the grace and mercy of Jesus is an amazing reality once we decide to truly give him everything about us. And he sends people into our lives to confirm his love and acceptance and forgiveness of us. It's painful and sometimes seemingly nearly impossible to willingly give him even the most shameful and devastating parts of our memories and experiences. It's really very seductive to flirt with the idea that certain things about ourselves are things over which we have no control; we're the products of our environments. But Jesus wants to transform even those things about us that we did not choose. He can't transform them, though, if we don't acknowledge them to be truly parts of ourselves. I praise Jesus that he is patient and redemptive, and that he gives us opportunities over and over to own our own lives and our own pain and to voluntarily give those things fully to him. Praise God for his unimaginable mercy and love! Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Colleen, You are so right on about prayer. It's the very thing we can do and know that our Lord Jesus Christ hears our prayers. In His timing, He works His will. Prayer is most powerful. And He is, like Colleen said, so full of Love and mercy that it's hard to even imagine. I was reading Jeremiah today and God is talking through Jeremiah, pleading for His people to come back to Him, for He loves them so much. It melts my heart to read things like that. Praise His Holy Name and Worship Him Forever! May God Bless both you Colleen and Richard for this forum too. I'm very grateful that this forum is here. As I'm sure many of the lurkers are too and hopefully one day they will be inspired to just start typing and thanking God for this forum. Or just start typing whatever is in their minds and hearts. Blessings of Grace and Peace to all readers and posters, in our Lord Jesus Christ. DtB | ||
| Sherry2 |
Wow, no posts here since almost a year ago. This is an excellent thread to read. I wish that so many who posted here were still here. Chyna, Violet, Valm, haven't seen Bill in a while either. Of course you haven't seen me post in a while either, though I've been reading on a weekly basis pretty much. I've missed conversating, but life was a blur of busyness for a while, and all I could do was read acouple and go on my way. I quit my job, and slowed down my college process. Am working on an Associate degree in Early Childhood Development....but anyhow. I think this last year things have been different. Jon joined me in going to church back in July of last year, which many of you knew. And it's great. I still am afraid to discuss things with him in regards to Adventism. He works on computers and does work still for some of the SDA's from our old church. I get scared sometimes he'll go back if he hangs out with them too much. And I found that this last year I went from joyful to uncertain again. I think I've been so angry at SDAism that instead of finding peace, resolution, forgiveness, and ability to love them as people (just like me being there), I went to being mediocre on it, rationalizing that though SDAism is very wrong, maybe it's no big deal to witness to them. Anyhow, here I am. I'm not feeling very good about still screwing up sometimes and doing hurtful things to others. And I don't know I understand the philosophy of one saved always saved. That seems like a lie as much as salvation by works. I just don't get it - Biblically it seems they're both wrong, but yet, as Bill experienced, the peace and joy people have who are truly assured of their salvation is an awesome thing. I wish I could have met your friend and conversated with her, Bill! Blessings to all! | ||
| Carol_2 |
sherry, hello and welcome back - i've been meaning to check on you! glad your life is not quite as busy & stressful now. thanks so much for posting on this thread as it caused me to read it! i was encouraged and uplifted by it. and welcome back to the rest of ya!! i too was wondering why suddenly nobody had anything to say! love and prayers to all, carol | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Long time since posting on this thread....this had lots of good stuff in it..Well I only brought it up because in the Bible study we're doing right now, something struck me as we are studying Exodus 20. Verse 4-5 when He says he will visit the iniquity of the father unto the third and fourth generations, but will show mercy unto thousands that obey Him....for starters let me just say that in the Hebrew the "visiting" term means to take a census. It doesn't mean He punishes the sons for the fathers sins. It means He takes into account how far the damage goes...and then mercy unto thousands!!!...well my main thing that struck me was this...Adventism only goes back 4 generations right now...or is it starting the 5th? Look how God is opening the eyes of 3rd, and 4th generation SDA's!! Why? Because we are seeking His will. And He shows mercy to thousands who obey Him! He is breaking the generational strongholds especially at this point I think...the 3rd and 4th generations...Hmmm...food for thought.  | ||
| Jmorris_4 (Jmorris_4) |
Well! that is striking Sherry! And when you look at it in that point of view, boy what an encouragement! If God is looking out for us to show us the truth in the "lie", how much more He will look to take care of us in every area of our lives! That really encouraged me! Hard for me to grasp! But obviously He is. And I'm not sure where I stand either on the once saved always saved. Never really took the time to study it out. One thought that has crossed my mind is the part in the bible where he goes out to find his lost, that he will leave his flock for one astray. Was that stray already part of His flock and left? If so, then that doesn't sound like he was always saved, he left the flock, he was going to be saved again with the shepherd finding him. I don't know, anyway, thanx for the encouraging words! You always have them wether you think so or not! Love ya! Jill | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Jill, Was that sheep ever not a part of His flock? It wandered away, but it was still His sheep. In the same way, was the Prodigal Son ever not the father's son? The more I study, the more I see how hard it is to be lost. Most of us do not have a problem with the fact that there is nothing we can do to "earn" our salvation. everything is dependent on God's grace. However, if this is true, doesn't it also have to be true that there is nothing we can do to lose our salvation? Otherwise it is no longer of grace, but of works. The only possible exception is if we wish to reject the gift. By that, I mean that we have come to a full understanding of the gift of God, and then we consciously reject it. But let me ask you, who in their right mind would ever do that? Read the 10th chapter of Hebrews in context (especially verses 1-26, and you will see the point I am making--it is the exact opposite of how you probably understood this passage while you were in Adventism. You will see that God's Grace is truly amazing. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hi Sherry, welcome back. I would have to agree with you that there is something wrong with the "once saved always saved" teaching as well as the saved by works. There are just so many scriptures that indicate that there is still that one condition of "belief" that is required. You see it over and over in the New Testament. For instance: Heb. 6:4-8 and Heb. 10:26-29, II Pet. 2:20-22, II John 1:9, I Tim. 4:1,2, Col. 1:21-23, I Cor. 15:2, Matt. 7:19, Rom. 11:19, John 15:1-8. And, of course, the sower who went out to sow seed. Jill, the sheep that simply strays is still a "sheep". It's the one who chooses to change his identity to "goat" that is the one who has finally left. That doesn't negate assurance of salvation in any way. Notice that the people being spoken of in these passages are not just backsliders, they are not just people who are struggling to learn how to walk out what God has said they are in Christ, they aren't in a learning process, they aren't into a bit of tantrum throwing or temporary rebellion, nor are they simply hurt that God hasn't done things their way. Rather they are apostates who had something and then rejected it. They chose to no longer "believe". They received the word, they travelled with it for awhile, and then they made a concious, deliberate choice to flatly reject it. I have to believe that the Lord makes it awfully hard for one headed down that path to shut out His voice, but the choice is still theirs to make. That seems it would be an awfully hard and incredibly stupid thing to do...but it apparently IS a definite posibility. God is always a gentlemen, you decide down the road that you don't want to live with Him, He isn't going to force you to do so. Hey, to the one who decides he loves sinning more than Christ, life in heaven would be misery. So when is the line crossed? Surely only God can look into a person's life and see if there is any part of their heart still inclined toward Him. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Lydell, I would respectfully have to disagree with you. About a year ago, I was reading one of the passages you mentioned, Hebrews 10:26-29 and had one of those eye opening experiences. If you go back and read the entire chapter, I think you will see that is is saying something totally different than just those four verses would appear to suggest. It is speaking of the confidence we can have in the sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice. Vs 19 says, "therefore brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened through the curtain that is his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodys washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful..." Then verse 26 says, "if we keep on sinning..." The key question is, what does it mean to "keep on sinning." The writer of Hebrews explains exactly what he means in Hebrews 3:7 - 12, where he talks about the Children of Israel who sinned by their unbelief. They refused to believe God's promise that he would give them the promised land. Instead, they sent spies in to see if they could take it under their own power. In other words, they sinned, by not entering into his rest. Verse 19 says, "So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief." This is the same idea that is carried into chapter 10. He tells the readers to hold unswervingly to the hope they profess. Because anyone who lets go of the hope (Jesus), "tramples the Son of God underfoot" (verse 29). If you reject the gift of God, then there is nothing left, but a fearful expectation of judgement, because you have chosen to stand in the judgement by your own merits rather than the merits of Christ--in the same way that the Children of Israel decided to enter Canaan under their own power rather than by the power of God. Consider this example. Let's say you were on the brink of bankruptcy, and had no hope of ever being able to pay your bills. Suddenly someone comes along and pays all your debts. Would you then turn around and continue to struggle to pay those bills that have been paid in full? Of course not. That would negate the gift. Well, the writer of Hebrews is saying the same thing. If you refuse to accept the gift of God, then nothing is left but to turn you back over to your crediters, because you have rejected the best that the giver can offer. It doesn't negate the fact that your debt has been paid. It just means you have rejected it. This passage has nothing to do with "sinning" (i.e. individual sins) to the point that our salvation is lost--a point that no one knows but God. If it did, where is our confidence in our salvation? We wouldn't have any unless we ceased sinning--something none of us will do until Jesus returns. It is talking about those who, after becoming aware of the gift of God, would choose any other means (*i.e. legalism, humanism, atheism, etc.)of maintaining their salvation than continual trust in the sufficiency of God's gift. My Pastor has siad several times that "a verse taken out of context is a pretext for a prooftext." That is exactly what Hebrews 10:26-29 is--a prooftext. It is one of the favorites of SDA's and other legalists. Locked Firmly in the Grips of His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lydell, I agree. I've really wrestled with the assurance/lose salvation question. I've concluded essentially what you described above. In a word, I believe that this is one of those truths that is a paradox. When we accept Jesus and accept the Spirit's new birthing of us, we can have absolute assurance that we are saved, that Jesus will not cease to seek for us if we stray or discipline us or love us. We can KNOW we are saved. On the other hand, the NT is equally clear that the possibility remains for people to reject the new birth and leave belief behind. Perhaps these are people who love the gospel message and love its promises and embrace it intellectually or emotionally but refuse the discipline of the new birth. That is one explanation I've heard from theologians I respect. Perhaps one really can refuse the Holy Spirit once one's experienced the new birthóthat would sort-of parallel Lucifer in a way, wouldn't it? (Although he didn't strictly have a new birth! But he was intimate with Godóas was Adam.) The parable of the seeds helps me the most with this question. Those that spring up quickly but wither in the heat died because they did not put down roots. Those that grew among the weeds of wordly concerns were choked to death by those weeds. In both cases, the plants died because they did not nurture a relationship with the Source of Life. The heat-withered set did not put down roots. They were superficial and did not commit themselves to the discipline of studying the Word and growing in love for the Lord. Those choked by the weeds did not allow God to be central and manage the weeds for them; they enmeshed themselves with their wordly concerns instead of giving them to God to deal with and focusing on him. In either case, I believe we definitely have free will, and I believe we definitely can completely rest on God's sovereign choice of us. I believe both are true but our human limitations don't let us see the whole picture. We can absolutely be at rest; nothing we do or don't do removes or assures our salvation. We also need to act on our commitment to Jesus and literally make our relationship with him our central priorityónot perfuntorily studying and praying, but joyfully allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us and teach us. It's hard to explain a paradoxóbut I believe this issue is one! Confident in Jesus and thankful for him, Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Ok, above this though...what were the thoughts on Exodus 20 that I wrote about? I just think it is pretty wild that God says he would take census unto the 3rd and 4th generations, and then to thousands that seek Him, and we see 3rd and 4th generation SDA's breaking free and coming to freedom from bondage... Once saved always saved is indeed a paradox and I don't understand it. I hear Doug all the way and I hear Lydell too. I've wrestled with it for 2 years and I still don't get it. I do know of people who seemed to have had salvation (have you ever read Marx's stuff from his teen years? - he wrote great poetry about Jesus and His grace) but who have entirely rejected Christ now. It's very rare but it sure amazing to see that. And I just can't believe they're saved now because they have entirely rejected the gift. The more I read, the more it seems to me that the issues aren't about whether you sin or not, but whether you reject the Holy Spirit's work in your heart when you have been born again, and you receive discipline for practicing sinfulness (different from falling into it but not letting it be your lifestyle) that may result in your death here on earth. But if you entirely turn your back on Jesus Christ then you are in danger of hell fire. But again, this is something I wrestle with regularly. | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Colleen, it seems to me that you are saying we can loose our salvation by not reading the Bible Ect. This smells like works to me. When I accepted Jesus I accepted it on the basis that He finished the work for us. All I have to do is believe in Him. The Holy Spirit will tell me what to do as a result of my salvation not as a condition of it. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sherry, I have had the exact same thoughts when I have read the verses about the 3rd and 4th generations. ------- Lydell said this, "They received the word, they travelled with it for awhile, and then they made a concious, deliberate choice to flatly reject it". "They received the Word"---everyone who reaches the age of acountability (whether that be 3 or 30) receives the Word. No one perishes from this life without having understanding of the Gospel. Receiving the word is much different than believing the word. The Greek word for understanding (receiving) something is "gnosis". The Greek word for believing something is "epignosis. We must do more than receive the word to be saved. Many will received the word of God and be lost. "they traveled with it for a while". They hung around with believers for a while (receiving) understanding even more doctrinal truths. And here is the key to it all "they made a concious, deliberate choice to flatly reject it". They understood the Gospel.......they hung around for a while......and then they made their decision....they chose NOT TO BELIEVE IT!! They never converted their understanding (gnosis) to believing (epignosis). These two words are essential in our understanding certain passages of scripture. The Greek makes them very distinctive; the English blurs them together. And we must be careful not to add addition requirements to salvation. It says "Believe and you will have eternal life". It doesn't say Believe and _________________ and then you will have eternal life. You can't fill in the blank with study the Bible, accept discipline, receive the work of the Holy Spirit, or even with...learn to love God. These are all good things but are not requirements for getting/keeping salvation. As for the seeds--three of the four underwent "change"; it was only the first group that were not "reborn". All those who are "born again" will be saved because they have believed in the Son. God says that NOTHING can snatch us from his hand. I believe that means even us. We are living in a world that is rampant with deception. We can easily fall prey to any one of them(even to a deception we have already escaped)!! All we have to do is shut off our minds to Gods thinking and we will believe anything!!! There is no doubt in my mind that if I stopped pursuing Biblical truths and began to allow someone else to interpret the Bible for me that I could easily become an Adventist again. Or maybe even something even worse! The Bible says that when we believe we are "sealed until the day of redemption". Is there a passage that says we can remove the seal????? Only Jesus Christ can "remove the seal"!!! There are countless people out there that "appear" to be saved and are not!! There are countless others who appear NOT to be saved and they are. I believe God when he says "we are sealed". I believe God when he says only Christ can open the seal. I believe God when he says "we cannot be taken from his hand". Only YOU can know if you only understand the gospel message or if you actually believe it!!!! If you BELIEVE it---then you are SAVED no matter what stupid, idiotic, premeditated, malicious act you might comment before you a redeemed! You are God's child! And you are just as incapable of becoming spiritually unborn as you are incapable of becoming physically unborn. Yes, you can kill yourself but you can erase the fact that you were born. This is an important doctrine because this is where our confidence in God stems from. This is what gives you confidence as you make bad spiritual decisions and you screw things up royally. The reaction my parents have had towards me in the last 3 years have made me wish sometimes that I wasn't theirs. I have wished I could have been born to some other family. But wishing this and doing things that aren't within the standards of my physical birth family don't do anything to change the fact. So it is with God family............. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Lydell, I went back and re-read your post. Maybe we aren't on opposite sides of the fence afterall. I may have jumped to the conclusion that you were speaking of those who "continue to sin" (i.e. individual acts). In fact, in looking at your post again, I sense you may have been talking about a conscious choice--in the same way that I was. If this is the case, I apologize for being hasty in my judgement. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
My goodnessóI did not mean to say we do anything to assure our salvation or to keep it or to get it or to lose it! All we do is BELIEVEówe are then automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit! I know people who say that once we are sealed we cannot choose to stop believing. My struggle has been about that point: your example of Marx, for instance, Sherry, illustrates what I mean. I personally cannot figure out how a person who has accepted Jesus and accepted the new birth can ever leave it. But it does seem possible that perhaps people can refuse to listen to the Holy Spirit's nudging and eventually reject beliefÖas Marx did, perhaps? I do not believe that a person can sin his way out of salvation if he truly believes and accepts the Holy Spirit's work in him. But Jesus did make it clear that unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. (see John 3) The parable of the seeds (Matthew 13) suggests to me that some people intellectually accept the gospel but refuse the Holy Spirit's seal which results in the new birth. In other words, they assent to the gospel and even experience life in the body, but their hearts are not surrendered. They wither when the going gets tough, or they choke to death because they haven't given Jesus the throne in their hearts and instead become overwhelmed by life's cares. By referring to people not accepting God's discipline I did not mean we have to accept God's discipline to be saved. But we do have to surrender our heartsónot just our mindsóand allow the Holy Spirit to give us a new birth. The Holy Spirit, as Violet so clearly said, teaches us and shows us what to do. One pastor I know says that if a person comes to faith in Christ but then totally rejects him and never returns, he was never really born again. It was just a mental assent. Perhaps that is true. Or perhaps someone can decide to reject true belief once he has it. I'm not sure about that point. But if he does reject belief, it will not be about committing sins. It will be a conscious, deliberate decision to walk away and to refuse to respond, ever, to the Holy Spirit's calls to him. I do know, however, that regardless of this paradox and the hazy answers to this question, I KNOW that nothing can take me out of God's love. I didn't used to know that. And if I commit some egregious sins, Jesus will come looking for me to bring me back to himself. But I also know that I want to honor him, and I do pray that he will show me what he needs to change in me, that he will take me out of the center of my life and put himself there, and that he will protect me from deception and pride and arrogance and ego and give me humility and willingness to serve and surrender. And those prayers are not about ensuring my salvation. I am saved even if I don't measure up. Rather, those prayers are about wanting to become more intimate with Jesus because I KNOW I am saved and safe! I hope I've cleared up any misunderstanding my last post caused. Nothing we do affects our salvationÖexcept our choice to believe or not to believe. And even our belief comes from Him, not from ourselves! Every part of our salvation is from Him! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
You know, I just remembered an example our pastor once used which I think explains this question quite well. Judas was one of Jesus' inner circle. He even experienced the power of the Holy Spirit when Jesus sent them out into the cities of Judea. He performed miracles and preached along with the other eleven. But he did not experience a heart change even though he participated in everything Jesus gave the twelve. I think that explains it; we can participate in every part of life in the Body of Christ but not allow Him to give us a new heart (new birth). If we have the new heart, however, we are his, and nothing can shake us from that. Ever. Colleen | ||
| Alicia (Alicia) |
Good Morning from Canada, I am very new to this forum. I am thankful for it. I would like to say I just read this thread this a.m. and it is important for us newbies and lurkers. You've all said things I sooo needed to think about and hear. Thought you should know your discussions and knowledge on the subject is appreciated. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Doug, in just glancing over your post very quickly (am visiting at older son's home this weekend we so rarely can get all the family together anymore since they've grown!), I believe we are saying the same thing. No problem! |
