| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
It looks like Judas was just "in the circle" for the purpose of his own selfish gain, wasn't he stealing money? I've studied into him more since the last thread about his salvation. About being saved and then giving the gift back. I always thought this was true even before I was saved, but there are too many texts that indicate if a person is truly saved, he can't be lost, he wont want to give the gift back. Didn't Jesus tell the disciples, 'If they went out from us, they were never with us to begin with'? About the parable of the soils, the ones that aren't grounded aren't saved. They "try" christianity out for a while but their curiosity isn't committment. What about -My sheep hear My voice and ...no one can snatch them away from me? no direct quotes, obviously ;) | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I believe you're right, Sabra. The texts that have caused me to ponder this question include Hebrews 6:4-6: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." My question has been, how can a person share in the Holy Spirit without being born again? What I'm concluding is that a person can intellectually say "Yes" to Jesus and become part of his body (the church) but refuse to open his HEART to the Holy Spirt's re-birth. They may even love the "body life", participate in Bible study and outreach, etc, and even (as Judas did) experience gifts from the Holy Spirit but refuse to submit their hearts to Jesus. Submitting intellectually and submitting spiritually are two different things. Jesus even said there would be people who would say to him that they had done miracles, visited the sick and imprisoned, and cast out demons in his name, but he would say, "I never knew you." So, yes, I would say that the difference between the sheep who hear his voice and the goats who don't is not always obvious. God only knows whose hearts are his, and we know if our hearts are his. Those whose hearts are his cannot be snatched away. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Colleen, Seems that that verse is speaking of those who have rejected the Holy Spirit. They've been enlightened, shown the truth, seen what it can do and yet they don't become grounded because they simply reject it. Guess that's why it's the impardonable sin. (???) | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
There's something interesting I noticed in that respect....the third commandment of the Decalogue was to not take the name of the Lord God in vain, and he who does will not be held guiltless. In the book of the Law it was amplified to show that anyone who took His name in vain was killed. New Testament Jesus stated whoever sins against His name it will be forgiven him, but he who sins against the Holy Spirit is unpardonable (Matt. 12:32) I still don't understand why. When I read the account in the three gospel it is about them calling Jesus miracles the work of Satan....any body out there got some serious study into this and know what it's meaning is? | ||
| Jmorris_4 (Jmorris_4) |
Lydell, I understand what you are saying, thank you. All this is making me think of my family, they were all up last night and we had this "discussion" on "religion". You see, the SDA church ex-communicated them, every one of my 4 siblings because they were not "living" according to the standards. They were wearing make-up and nail polish etc..... this was literally years ago. They, on the other hand have never forgotton it. So everytime we come together, knowing that I go to church again, always bring this up. They are bitter and angry and the majority of their statements are that they "feel closer to God when they are stoned and out in nature". I am basing all my questions towards my family. The sheep and all. When you say they have to "choose" not to, that is what my family has done. They don't want anything to do with ANY church because of this action that took place. Is God's grace still there for them when He comes to take His children home? I am sooooooooooooo angry at these so called christians that did this to my family!!!!!!! And i have almost quit trying to convince them otherwise. Another strike against them is that our mother was a HUGE hipocryte. She would hold to the letter of the law on Saturday, but the rest of the week, she could scream and swear and even beat us kids. We got horrible beatings. All of us did, and they all still talk about that amognst the religion conversations. "How can christian people be good" they say. Sometimes I wonder myself. But am learning the Grace of God. It sickens me to see my family like this. And Don't know what to do about it, but pray. Jill | ||
| Jmorris_4 (Jmorris_4) |
Colleen, That is exactly what I mean with my family, they were, as far as I remember, truely believing in God, as far as they knew (only in Adventism), then the church excommunicated them. Now, because of this, they don't want anything to do with church, or God really, they know He is real, and believe in creation, but as far as making Him their Lord, no. Because of the ex-communication, they think God hates them or something, I'm not totally sure on that one but just listening to what they are saying and it makes me wonder if thats what they think. They think they can't have any fun and really say some awful things about God in the fact that thats why God doesn't want us to "sin", or party is what they mean, because its too fun and God doesn't want us to have fun. And it just went on and on. It pains me to see my family like this. It would take a miracle to change their minds. Their choice scares me. Jill | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Jill, in Psalms it says that God considers the "estate" (KJV) of men when he considers their lives. And Paul says in Romans 1:18-20 that in nature are revealed the hidden qualities of God so all men are without excuse. God alone knows whether or not a person has a heart that wants truth, and God alone knows how scarred and wounded a person's heart has been. God knows your family; he knows their woundedness; he knows their deepest hearts' desires. You can trust them to his care. One other thing: your description of the violence in your family reminds me of a copy I received from the San Bernardino County training manual for rape crisis intervention healthcare providers. I got this from an Adventist who has taken the official training to do rape crisis counseling. I am looking at p. 87 of the training manual. The statistics are based on national and international studies. In the chapter entitled "Sexual Assault", under the sub-heading "incest" is a discussion of the family dynamics that contribute to incest. It mentions that "about one-third of survivors of child sexual abuse were abused by a relative, and about one-third of those were abused by a parent. Nearly all incest was committed by men." (Although not all!) It continues, "In families in which father-daughter incest occurs, a common pattern is one in which the father dominates the household and devalues women." It continues by discussing other contributing family dynamics, including maternal mental health, etc. Then is says this: "The male domination that is at the heart of this set of family dynamics is common to many cultural groups in North America; for example, Asians, Pacific Islanders, and Filipionos, Peurto Ricans, Seventh Day Adventists, and white Anglo-Saxon Protestants." I find it particularly fascinating that among the general population groups mentioned, Seventh-day Adventists are specificilly mentioned as figuring in national statistics among the highest risk groups for incest. Switching gears: Sherry, your question about the sin against the Holy Spirit is a good one. When the Pharisees finally said that Jesus was doing his miracles by the power of Beelzebub, Jesus reprimanded them and told them that a house divided against itself could not stand. He also said that the sin against the Holy Spirit was the one unforgivable sin. After that exchange with the Pharisees, Jesus began to teach in parables instead of straightforwardly proclaiming to the Jews the arrival of the kingdom of heaven. That marked the end of his direct appeal to the Jews, and he broadened his ministry to specifically reach out to Gentiles as well. Jesus was saying that to attribute the work of God to Satan is blasphemy. To give Satan the credit for the work of God is unforgivable. To blaspheme Jesus himself is forgivable because people may be confused about his identity, but to be faced with the overt work of God and to say Satan did it is blasphemy. The Holy Spirit's job in our lives is to convince us of the reality of Jesus and his divinity and saving work. Without the Holy Spirit, we would have only stories. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us know God. To refuse the teaching and transforming power of the Holy Spirit's convincing us of the reality of Jesus will ultimately result in the unpardonable sin because we will ultimately refuse to believe Jesus is God our Savior. We will ultimately refuse to surrender our hearts and accept his identity of us and his righteousness in us. But again, God knows our hearts. He does not stop wooing us. He alone knows what we need and what has happened to us. A heart that longs for truth, God will honor. In Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Welcome Alicia! Canada eh? Beautiful place I hear. Glad you're here and hope to hear from you some more. This is a good place and a whole host of topics! Happy reading and hopefully more posting. God Bless you always, your sister in Jesus, Denise | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Colleen, Not to downplay the insanity of the Adventist mindset...but the broad generalizations of the cultural groups listed in that "Sexual Assualt" incest memo also included "and white Anglo-Saxon Protestants"...a fairly large segment of the population also. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Hey Cindy, Long time no see you around. I ALWAYS appreciate your graceful contributions to the forum. I wish you would make them more frequent. Hope all is well with your family. Regarding the report Colleen mentioned, it is frightening and shameful in the worst way. When we consider that Adventist is a very small section of the population and they are placed in two segments. They are many issues that I preceive are endemic, but Incest, was never one of them. The report seems to be a case and example of Achan and the Babylonian garment he stole and hid in his tent. When lots were casted to find the culprit, they were specific,.. tribes,..families then the person-Achan. It is hard for me to swallow the facts. I feel shame and implication even though I was just part of the group at large - adventist. Thanking God for His mercy and grace to redeem us. Bmorgan | ||
| Alicia (Alicia) |
Thank-you Denise for your warm welcome. I have avidly poured over this site since I bought my laptop. God sent me here. I have gained such insight and peace here. And a greater appreciation of how he moves in my life. I particularly liked what Colleen just said above. I always wondered about unforgiveable sins. My Mom liked to tell me that the Holy Spirit would leave you if you did enough bad things,and you would be forever lost. That always stayed with me. As for incest and abuse. I don't know about the states, I was raised in smalltown Canada. Adventists were very old school. There was alot of incest. Myself,(my father was a deacon), my best friend, (her father was a pastor), my other friend,(her Dad was something I don't remember now), my best friend and I told and were sent to a Sda counsellor who rubbed my chest while he prayed in his car, and asked my friend if she had orgasms. Another girl in our sabbath school charged her Dad and he went to jail. It is prevalent in some areas. What I don't like is that as a whole the church will not address this subject, but I was given a Review where there were funds and meetings being held to help convicted pedophiles feel more welcome in church and accepted. That's not right to me. Just so you know this did affect me alot. With God helping me even when I didn't realize it, I have used my life experiences to become a social worker, and crisis intervention counsellor specializing in sexual assault. What doesn't kill you, does make you stronger. I am curious if there is any group formed for adventists who been abused. Does anyone know? love Alicia | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Alicia, I don't know of any group that's formed for Adventists who have been abused. The fact is, many have been, either sexually or physically or both. Many others have been raised by parents who were abused but who never dealt with the problem, and if they weren't physically abused, they had emotional abuse: inappropriate boundaries with parents, functioning as a parent's confidant, surrogate spouse, etc. That is called emotional incest. One thing I've noticed is that as former Adventists begin to accept the truth in scripture and accept the forgiveness and love of Jesus, the abuse issues begin to come up as an inevitable matter of healing. Truth sets us free; that's the miracle so many of us here can attest. Truth, however, is not limited to spiritual reality. It includes the truth about our lives, and Jesus really does want to heal our memories and emotional wounds. Just as he helps us walk away from the church that held us in bondage and provided a cover for the innapropriate relationships that abound in many Adventist families and communities, even so he walks with us through the trauma of remembering and healing from emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. It is a good thing to spend some time with a good Christian counselor as these issues come up. The spirit of Adventism is not only a spirit of deception; it is also a spirit of perversion. Remember Ellen and James White and the Damian trial? Strange activities with illicit sexual overtones abounded in the early Adventist church. If you don't know about the Damian trial, just think back to several of Ellen's "testimonies" that could only have come from a really wonded psyche and sexuality: men should not wash women's feet (before communion), even husbands, because it might arouse the passions; don't eat eggs because they arouse the animal passions; wives should not undress before their husbands because it would excite their animal passions, etc. In short, as a friend of mine said recently, the spirit that drove Ellen is the same spirit that drives the church today, and it is a spirit of deception and perversion. Certainly not all Adventists are deceptive or perverted. The nature of the church, though, promotes hiddenness and attracts members that need to hide behind requirements for goodness to purge away what they feel is unshakeable badness. Praise God that he heals not only our minds but also our hearts and emotions! Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Dear Alicia, You most certainly have experienced and seen alot of wrongdoing, injustice and coverup! My heart goes out to you and those you know that have had such sinful treatment done to them. Thank God that you can look back and see that HE was right there, watching over you and has turned this around for HIS purpose! You may not know this, but you are a miracle and a great testimony to the Power (Dunamis) of God! I pray that you have forgiven those that have done these atrocities. And while you may never, in this lifetime, forget what was done, you have a purpose in God's Kingdom. Here and now. One especially wonderful insight that I took note of was that you do recognize that this has made you stronger. Indeed! And with that strength you are encouraging others who are currently going through all the emotions that you know only too well. All those who feel alone, those that cry themselves to sleep, those that feel abandoned by God, those whose own families have turned on them, those who are living today because of some word of encouragment that you gave to them. And many more. Yes, God is using you and never doubt that. Keep in mind too, that there are many lurkers (we both know what that's like), who needed to hear your testimony about how Good God is and how He has and is helping you. For He is "Our Everpresent Help in time of need." Another most important, a never to forget thing, that can be seen so clearly in your post is the very fact that you KNOW that our Lord was helping you at the time all this happened, even if you didn't realize this fact then. That is our God working mightily in you! The ability to see has been given to you. Praise Him! And let your light shine! For you are loved by your Father in Heaven and He has and will continue to be with you. Never to leave you nor forsake you. That is Scripture Truth. His Promises are Trustworthy and True. So, let us rejoice together: "Rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep" And you my friend and sister in more ways than you may realize, remember this: NOMATTER WHAT, never forget that God IS with you. This life is but a breath. Do not be fearful and let that Light of God that is within you, so shine, that others will see it and Glorify our Father! My most gracious thanks to our Lord for you to open up as you have. That took courage and God gave you that courage! Believe me when I say that it is a blessing to me. I'm positive this will be remembered with gratitude by many I personally know and those that I don't know. May His Face Forever Shine Upon you! In Christ Jesus our Saviour and Mighty Redeemer, your sister, Denise | ||
| Alicia (Alicia) |
My new dear friends, Hhmm! That just came flying out didn't it. Quess I have some pent up anger. THANK-YOU for your kind acceptance of my life story. I am working on forgiveness. Most of the time I can forgive. My abuser died and that made me feel better and helped my healing alot. I think there are things that I will work on with God's help. It seems to be a growing thing. I have felt better centered since I found this forum. Reading it answers so many questions I've always had, and couldn't find anyone who could answer them. God has led me so many places I didn't know I needed badly till I found them. I feel like a child sometimes. I do not have the biblical knowledge alot of you have and I'm very young in my relationship with Jesus. He watches me extra closely and has to daily do these things like direct me to what He wants to learn.Because my Dad was such an abusive sick man , God knows he has to baby me along.He just kept it up long enough that I had to see He as my heavenly father wasn't sick or abusive. That allowed me to forgive my father easier. Does that sound odd? I have a new Father that really knows me, and loves me anyway, unconditionly, and never lets me down. So I could see my earthly Dad with sadness instead of pure rage and loathing. Only the love of God could have changed that. As you can see above I do have times when I am still angry about it. Especially when I see another of his victims. And they are not doing well. I'm madder for them than me. Thank-you again for listening.Read in a magazine that not talking about these things in your life can lessen your life span by 10 years. You could be the reason I live to 100. Ha! love Alicia | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Alicia, I'm so glad you found this forum, and I'm so glad God's Spirit is here to give you a safe place to vent and question. You are by no means alone, and even those among us who haven't experienced incest have probably all experienced its effects in people we know well. Your beginning to see God as a trustworthy Father and your being able to forgive your father make sense. I love the phrase our pastor's wife says, "God is sovereign; God is good; God wastes nothing, and God redeems everything we submit to him." He is redeeming your past! Colleen | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Greetings all, This is my very first post here, I've been browsing the various areas of the forum, including the archives, and I have no doubt that I was led here. I've appreciated all of the information here, but more importantly I've appreciated the ability to communicate with other formers. I started pulling myself out of Adventism about 1 year ago and it has been an ongoing process that I thank God for bringing me through each day closer to him and to what he really wishes for me to do. Unfortunately my family is still stuck in Adventism and they are *certain* that I am doomed, which I'm aware many people have heard. Anyhow, I wanted to introduce myself briefly and become an active part of this forum. Steve | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Though I am a ėmarried toî instead of a ėformer,î I thought I would welcome you. I am sure everyone else will welcome you as warmly as I was welcomed. I am also sure all would like to hear more about your journey so far. Fill us in, if you wish. You are in a good place here. More importantly, your final destination is even better. May your path continue closer to Jesus. Jerry | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Hi Steve, Welcome! Have you got a chance to read the stories on FAF yet? Looking forward to hearing more of your story. It's quite a journey, let me tell ya. But God is there through it all... | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Thanks for the welcome. I'll just dive right in to the story here, so here goes: I am a 3rd generation SDA, although I was adopted at 1 week old and the adopted family is the SDA connection. They have been a great family and I believe that God brought them and myself together when they wanted another child. Anyhow, they raised me SDA and I really was just content to go along with the status quo for a long time because I simply didn't know any better. Both my parents are teachers in the SDA school system, elementary, so I got a full indoctrination from a young age. I got sent off to the local conference academy and they fully expected me to go to an adventist college, which I did for all of a semester, and I hated how I felt that it was just a glorified high school, requiring students to go to religious services, and we had to live in the dorm until age 23 unless we happen to be married. I am all for worshipping God, but he doesn't force it, and I felt forced, so I withdrew after a semester. After finishing college elsewhere, I joined the workforce and didn't really attend church regularly, but eventually I started going again and met some nice people who encouraged me to attend, so I started to attend regularly again. Even though I'm no longer Adventist, it was good for me to go back because it was the start of me being able to settle things in my mind once and for all about adventism. I've always questioned EGW, and always thought that the whole 1844 situation was extremely fishy, and also I greatly disliked the whole arrogance of adventism. Even though there were and are many fine people that are still in that belief structure, I loathed the arrogance and how they looked upon any non-adventist as basically a second class Christian. So after about a year of being back regularly attending an Adventist church, I decided I was going to seperate myself from them and find out how the un-EGW filtered Bible would direct me and how it would speak to me. So I stayed away from any church for about a year and only met with small groups of various different denominations. I learned a lot from them about acceptance and true Christian fellowship without being locked in one's own little adventist world. So after I decided that Adventism was not where it was at I started looking around on the internet and found a lot of information including this website and forum, and I thank God for it everyday. I'm glad to be able to share similar experiences with other people because really only we can understand exactly what other formers have gone through. Not so terribly long ago, about 2 months now, I told my family how my beliefs have changed and shockingly to them, improved. They still think denomination=salvation and are sure I'm a goner and lost for good, and I've told them exactly why I've moved on to better things with Jesus really at the center of my life, but they're blind to it. I have no animosity towards them, they have been great parents, but that doesn't excuse the faulty teachings they helped perpetuate so there is a little bit of a rift, more on their side than mine. I explained about my thoughts on EGW to them, and got the standard 'well, people who wrote the Bible made mistakes too' and things of that nature where they essentially tear down the Bible to stick blindly by EGW. I'm still church shopping, but no matter what non-adventist church I've been to, every time I've gone to anything they've always been much more pleasant to me and didn't pressure me in any way, they were just glad to see me each time I would attend. I may just keep going to different churches for awhile longer before I settle down to one main one because I think it's helping me shed some of my baggage and showing me a whole new existence in Christ. That's about the story up until now. I'm sure I've left some details out, but there it is in a nutshell. I really hope to be able to talk to many people on here and share in our experiences and rejoice in our liberation. Steve | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
oh wait, just noticed that I said 'I am...' and used the present tense rather than past. Shame on me, should've used past tense... Steve |
