| Author | Message | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Welcome Steve!!!! I'm so glad you came here. It's a fantastic place to learn, grow and heal. I can relate to many aspects of your story. Welcome to Freedom in Jesus! Dennis<>< | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Welcome, Steve! I'm so glad you found us. Your "leaving" and then "going back" makes sense to me. I have a very dear friend who left Adventism twice. The first time she left because she was simply no longer practicing the beliefsóin fact, she was far from Christ. Even then, she left for reasons of integrity: she could no longer call herself Adventist while she flaunted it's practices. Years later she found the Lord and began attending a local evangelical church. She was truly born again, but she went back to the Adventist churchómostly because her parents had moved and she attended with them, and partly because she had deep theological understanding in common with them. She left for good several years agoóand this time it was also for reasons of integrity: theological this time instead of behavioral. She told me very recently that she realizes now that she had to go back and leave again in order to fully "own" and consciously choose to leave her identity with the church. If she hadn't, she thinks she would have kept her SDA roots more or less in the background under wraps, and she would always have had subconscious ties to it. This way she is completely free since she left it with her eyes wide open instead of by default. She chose to leave for the sake of the gospel the second time. The first time she chose to leave because of her own "rebellion". At any rate, you are welcome, and we look forward to hearing more from you! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Welcome Alicia and Steve!!! So glad you're here!  | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Steve, Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing your story.It is sounds familiar. My family and I stopped going to the adventist church almost four years ago, but as recent as two years ago, had a major meltdown when we faced the deception. WE continually have to shake off stuff (ingrained false beliefs-EGW quotes...) that cling to us. I know the arrogance you speak of all too well. My husband and I marvel at the Awesomeness of God and wonder(out aloud) what would have happened to our now 17 year old daughter if we were disobedient and remained adventists today. Praise God, she will start Texas A&M University in the Fall, as a freshman. Can you imagine the dilema- she would have no life. We take delight and are joyful that she walks in obedience to Christ. The feeling of fear that plagued me for years are gone because we can release her to God. Steve, the farther along you come on the journey out of SDAism, the darker it will look to you but, the greater joy you will experience. God Bless you. Bmorgan | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Texas A&M you say? that's in my neck of the woods, although it's a couple hours away, and I do plan to do some fossil hunting up that way when it cools off a little and isn't raining all the time. I'm glad to hear your daughter is going to college at a normal college instead of what I always think of as a minimum security prison where you're told what to think, how to think about it, and when to think about, and how long you should think about it for. Already I can tell that being able to talk to others with similar backgrounds to my own is a blessing, so thank you to everyone who posts on here. I got a call from my parents last night asking why I "didn't like their church" so I told them to check out a few websites and gave them the addresses, and even told them to come check out this one, so here's hoping they will check it out. I asked them what they were afraid of, if what they believe is truth, it'll stand up, so they shouldn't be afraid to broaden their outlook and go from there. Thanks for all of the encouraging words, I appreciate them greatly. Steve | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
On my way home last night I was behind a guy with "The 7th day is still God's Sabbath" on his license plate frame. I was secretely hoping he would break down or something so I could be the big hero and talk to him, sigh.... | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bmorgan, we ask ourselves the same question: What would have happened to our boys if we had been disobedient and remained Adventists? God really is faithful to bless us in unimagined ways when we trust him and walk where he leads us. By the way, this is completely off the subject, but I just have to share it. We went to the Greg Laurie Harvest Crusade last Sunday evening for the first time; we had an amazing experience as we stood in line. Richard wore a T-shirt with our website name printed on the back (a "gift" from the web hosting company!), and two young women approached usóAdventistsóand asked us about why we left. They were searching, and we had a Bible study with them as we stood in line for about 45 mins! God does design events and appointments. Here's what I wanted to share: Greg Laurie said something which I thought was a really interesting and helpful definition. He said, "A skeptic is a person who has questions that need to be answered. An unbeliever is a person who simply doesn't want to change." I believe God can change unbelievers into skeptics and into believers, but that definition does help, sometimes, to sort out what kind of person you're dealing withÖ Praising God for his sovereignty and faithfulness and for his insight, Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Now, Colleen . . . Did you have to leave us hanging like that? What issues did you discuss? What was your impression of their reaction to what you said to them and showed them? Just curious. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well I really am a skeptic right now...and am enjoying talking with Sisyphus (Scot) on the other line. I have to say this...yes he was in the face at first, but he just needs to be loved and accepted like all the rest of us. And if we can't love each other regardless if we're atheist, agnostic, or any other, than we're really not living out Jesus life, are we? So I'm fitting in there right nice right now, and am thankful for opportunities to again expand my mind, think bigger, and ask questions without being condemned. If we cannot honestly question God on stuff and only risk hell if we do, then is that really LOVE? I don't think so. A very interesting opportunity, indeed Colleen. I hope things went well for helping them to be freethinking themselves. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sherry, we can ALWAYS honestly question God on stuff without risking hell. I really don't believe any of us truly comes to love God without passing through serious skeptical, even agnosticómaybe even atheistic phases. If we can't ask the ultimate questions and receive answers that really make sense, we have no business being believers. Faith is not only something required to believe in God. Faith of one kind or another is required for absolutely any belief system we embrace. But, as J. P. Moreland from Talbot Seminary said in a talk last December, there is ultimate reality and truth. Embraceing a deception is fatal, even if we are sincere. God asks us to live with integrity. That means we MUST ask the questions. It also means we must be open for the answsers. Jesus came to the point where he no longer spoke openly about the kingdom of heaven to the Pharisees. They persistently accused him of having a demon, of trouble-making, of not honoring their viewpoints and laws, etc. He even instructed his disciples not to engage in trying to convince the unwilling of the reality of the kingdom. (see Matthew 7:6) Love honors other people's choices. It does not engage in ongoing discussions whose purposes are to win or prove a hypothetical point. Freedom is the hallmark of salvation. We are all free to think and conclude any way we want to. But in the real world, I love Richard. I will not persist in a dialogue in which someone tries to convince me that his declarations of love to me, even his demonstrations of love, are convincing only because I want them to be. I know many people are "in love with love", not the person who's the love object. I also know many people refuse to acknowledge the reality of a distant or unfaithful or double-minded spouse, insisting instead that the spouse loves them in spite of possible evidence to the contrary. but inmy relationship with Richard, I have personal evidence, unreproducible to anyone else, that he loves me deeply and commitedly. I KNOW that from experience that goes 'way beyond the words others hear him say, although others' experiences with Richard would confirm that he honors his word. I refuse to engage in debate with anyone that tries to make me doubt his love. Now, more to the point: do I believe Sisyphus (Scott) is an ubeliever, or merely a skeptic? I'm not sure. I only know that my dialogue with him results in my experience and my certainty being disrespected as unsupportable. Do I believe Scott is a lost cause? Absolutely not! Do I pray for him? Emphatically, yes, often. Is it useful for me to continue to dialogue with him? Not right now. For me, dialogue needs to be mutually respectful of each other's viewpoints, even if we disagree. Do I think other people should dialogue with him? Yes, if they wish, as long as the conversations remain withing the scope of the forum. My problem is not with Scott's questions. My problem is not with free thinking. My problem is with not being able to exchange mutually exclusive ideas without resorting to sarcasm, put-downs, and arrogance. My particular posts seem to bring out the worst in Scott, and perhaps his make me defensive, too, so I'm just not going to continue for now. Thankful for Jesus' love for us all, Colleen | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
T-shirts!!?? That would be way cool. I would love to have something like that. I love to wear my grace t-shirt but a former adventist one would be even better. It would be great if we could come up with a design. Vi | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
We must never forget---It is never our mission to prove the diety of Christ. It is only our mission to deliver the message!!! It is the Holy Spirit at work within the soul that will prove the diety of Christ. Those who war against the Spirit (who battle it with human knowledge) are in constant turmoil. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual force of evil in the heavenly realm". The Greek word for struggle means a struggle which involves only yourself--so this battle plays out in the field of the mind!!!! It is a war between the human soul and the Spiritually activated divine spirit which makes Biblical doctrines understood. The "new" understanding of the Biblical concepts wars against the carnal mind. The Spirit remains enabling the message to be understood until the point that person makes the decision to reject the diety of Christ. At that point the person has made an "educated" decision and the God the Holy Spirit does not interfere with volition. He allows the person to exercise their "free thinking" and to reject the message of salvation--he allows them to maintain the greater confidence they possess in themselves and reject the concept of a Higher Authority. That's love, isn't it? Never, never forcing yourself/or your opinions on another is the greatest form of love and respect. | ||
| Sherry2 (Sherry2) |
Well, seeing some folks might not go to that thread with Scott, I'm gonna post my post here because I have questions that need answering. What I heard Scot suggesting is that we don't go into the "God" thing with the same mentality we did believing White's lies. The authenticity to me has been argued well, and I have no problem any longer with "is the Bible historically accurate?" yes it is...However we are moral people who can chose to embrace evil or doing right without God in our life. Do we take the doctrine of depravity of man to such extents that no good and moral decisions come out of man without Him? If He made us from the start wouldn't it be there anyhow? For the example of Abraham Lincoln, known as honest Abe as you well know. He had impeccable integrity, loved his children, went to church...but was not a follower of Jesus till 2 weeks before his death. Here's some of my thoughts to Scott: "I'm still here...Just takin' in stuff and thinking abit. Tis true about "pack mentality". We do have an insatiable need to belong. Why is that? And surrendering in ignorance is never good. People often fall into a mentality of going by the rule book and not thinking if the rule book is even fair or accurate. Then there were freethinkers in religion too. People who said that what the church taught wasn't correct, and opposed it and got hung, beat, and burned for opposing it (whatever it might have been...there were a few 'its' through history). Does the Bible allow for freethought and expression. On one hand it can seem the answer is no, and on the other hand yes. Paul afterall did state that we were free in Christ but do not sin in our freedom which can translate to don't do things that hurt others, yourselves, or God in what you do. But then seeing that Jesus seems kindlier, caring for children and women, does the God of the old testament seem much more harsh and unrealistic, and as you said as we became more compassionate, we changed god into our image to be more compassionate, i.e. Jesus...A good question. I've always wrestled with the "why"s of things done in the O.T. Why did God send two she bears to mall 42 children for simply getting mouthy with a prophet? Ok, maybe they needed to be straightened out but was sending bears to mall them a moral thing to do? Is that morality? Or is this a story to scare children into submission? And why did God have whole societies wiped off the face of the earth? Ok, so they discovered later how truly aweful Canannite people were. Ok...so why not destroy them same as Sodom and Gomorrah, without making a human hand take another human life, and bear those types of mental scars in the mind killing others has. And what about the command "Thou shalt not kill." Hmm....I'd certainly like to hear other perspectives on these opinions too. Any takers? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Sherry, I think Gen 6 can answer a lot of questions. If the fallen angels were the giants of that day, then they were demons. I believe they were the reason for the flood, Sodom and Gamorrah and Canaan. I don't think they were "people" at all but demons. I also believe they intergrated with the animals and that is the reason for God destroying all of those animals in the flood. This is totally my own study, I've never heard anyone preach this, but it makes sense to me. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
The Hebrew word tranlated into children is the word(s)(nëârim ketannim} it not only signifies little children but young men. (katon}the root word for (ketannim) signifies not only little, but young, in opposition to old; and (näâr} signifies not only a child, but a young man grown to years of maturity. Isaac was called {näâr} when he was twenty-eight years old, Joseph when he was thirty-nine, and Rehoboam when he was forty. These were idolatrous young men which harrassed Elisha. They had heard of the ascension of Elijah and did not believe it. They blasphemously told Elisha to follow him. The prophet, under Divine influenc, pronounced a curse ìin the name of the Lord,î which was immediately followed by a most terrible judgment. This event left no question as to the authenticity of the prophet. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Satan knew the plan of God was to bring Christ into the word as humanity. It was his plan to contaminate the human race to the point that there was nothing on this earth that was 100% human. Thus the Nephilim--the giants--they were half human and half angelic. Satan could have been successful in eliminating the human race by simply creating a half-human/half angelic race, hence, there would have been no way for Christ to have been born as humanity because the human race would no longer have existed. He would have been born with angelic attributes which was not the plan of salvation. Satan failed in his attempt to contaminate the human race as all of this new race were obliterated in the flood, leaving being only those who were 100% humanity. Have you ever considered that the many Greek myths, etc....were based upon these Giants of angelic/part angelic heritage? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Lori, good points. I've often thought the same thing. Enduring myths almost never come from NOTHINGóin the Greek myths, the Heros (like Atlas) were said to be the progeny of humans and gods. Of course, none of this is strictly provableóbut it does make some sense. As far as morality is concerned, it only makes sense in the context of absolute truth. Yes, SherryóI believe the human impulse to do right is a reflection of God's image in us. Further, Romans 1:18-20 explains that God's eternal power and divine nature have been clearly revealed seen since creation "so that men are without excuse." He also says that men suppress this truth, which is plain to them, by their wickedness. Morality really derives from God. People, however, can have moral behavior without being born again. That's why Jesus said that at the judgment many will say, "But Lord, we have prophecied and cast out demons and visited the imprisoned and fed the hungry in your name," yet Jesus will say, "Depart from me; I never knew you." Morality is a good thing. Society becomes anarchistic without it. But morality does not save us. Only Jesus' sacrifice does that. In a born-again person, morality becomes transformed from good deeds into offerings of praise to God, benefitting both doer and recipient with grace in ways mere morality never can. One thing I've had to figure out is the relationship between the kindly Jesus and the "ruthless" OT God. The God portrayed in the OT never really made sense to me until I began to understand and accept God's (here we go!) sovereignty. I've discovered two things. First, Jesus was not merely kindly. He judged the Pharisees' hypocrisy, even calling them sons of hell. Jesus is the judge at the end of the age, not God the Father. Judgment is given to him, and he will punish the wicked. Evil cannot exist eternally in the presence of God, and evil and God are not equal powers. God is the ultimate power in the universe. He will rule for eternity. Second, the OT God is the same God we see in Jesus. Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father. God has always, (not just in the future), been the judge of evil. When God was establishing Israel in Canaan, he judged the evil of the Canaanites. But more than that, by God destroying the Canaanites, etc., he was actually fighting Israel's battls. As you mentioned, Sherry, God did the work; Israel didn't have to. From the beginning of the nation God was demonstrating that it was HIS work that would save his people, not their own. He was also establishing himself as the God who would protect his people from evil. Further, the Canaanite nations always took their gods to battle with them. Their wars were always "holy wars", and those ancient nations believed that their military success or failure was directly related to their gods' whims, pleasures, and relative strength. When God fought Israel's battles, wiping out their enemies by often miraculous means (think Jericho, Gideon, etc.), he was making a clear statement which the Canaanite nations understood: the God of Israel was stronger than the gods of Canaan. In fact, the reputation of Israel's God preceeded Israel as they settled the land. Often representatives of the pagan nations would meet Israel with acknowledgments that they knew the God of Israel was unconquerable. In fact, Rahab's defection from Jericho to Israel was because of God's reputation preceeding the arrival of Israel. God was establishing himself as unconquerable, a God above all other gods. And the Canaanites saw and understood, even though most of them didn't come to know God. Ultimately, as un-humanistic as it sounds, God is the ultiamte value in the universe. All creationóincluding usóexists for His glory. And when we submit to his sovereignty and his love and his unimaginable sacrifice for us, he makes us part of his family. He shares his character and glory with us. Christianity is the only religion in the world that does not depend upon our own work to be right with God. It's also the only religion in the world that asks for our full surrender to a God who is mightier than we are. In true Christianity there is no place for pride. There is also great strength and authorityóbecause God gives us His when we surrender. Thank you, God, for uniting yourself with us, and for making us yours! Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Amen Colleen Lori, I don't think the giants were obliterated by the flood, Canaan was after the flood and there is a lot of talk referring to them in Job. I'm not sure when they went, but 2Peter 2:4 tells us they were chained until judgement at some point. I think it explains Stonehenge, Easter Island, maybe the pyramids, and all of those other huge, weird, structures that don't look human. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sabra....you are so right!!! I knew that!!! I mean, who could forget Goliath and his four siblings. And there are others mentioned in the Bible. I should have said Satans first attempt to corrupt the human race was obliterated in the flood. And, even the verse in Gen. 6:4 says, "(they) were on the earth in those days---and also afterward---". | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
So, does anybody know when they went? I thought maybe it was when the Holy Spirit came to earth, but that's just speculation on my part. |
