| Author | Message | ||
| Clay (Clay) |
Greetings from the Canada I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I too have found that SDA's who are my friends, are very confused as to how to deal with the issue of us attending another church. The interesting thing is that they are unwilling to get into the Word and read for themselves about the issues. In my former SDA church which is small and quite liberal they just say "it doesn't matter what you believe, we just want you to attend because we need your musical talent". Since I have been an SDA pastor for 14 years, I have some pastor friends who know I no longer believe in Adventism but they will not ever talk to me about it. Its seems they are afraid to get into the discussion and it may be because they themselves have questions in their mind re SDAism. We still attend the church that I pastored occasionally because we want them to realize we are not rejecting them but only the SDA beliefs. It is not real easy to do since no one will ever ask us what we really do believe. I really think that the majority of SDA's could not defend their beliefs from the Bible if they really were called to do so and that makes them very uneasy to discuss deep doctrinal issues. My wife and I have found that stepping away from SDAism causes one to really study deeply and depend on the Holy Spirit so much more for guidance. Our realationship with Jesus has deepened so much since stepping away and our understanding of what the New Covenant is all about has revolutionized our thinging. ITs like the lights just came on all at once and we can only say PRAISE GOD! I too, have also heard the comments about DAle that he is a bitter man and is not at peace. One of my friends when to school with him and therefore will not read any of his books. I have found Dale to be a very gentle, loving Christian who very kindly points people to the truth. It reminds me of the people who rejected Jesus because they knew him as a boy and the town in which he lived and therefore could not believe him to be the Messiah. I think God is using Dale in a powerful way to bring new light to those SDA's who are really searching and willing to study for themselves. I do enjoy this forum even though I do not get on real often. I so appreciate your comments Colleen. God has given you great wisdom and you have such a gentle spirit. | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Thanks Clay for sharing. I have found that a great many adventists have an aversion to reading the Bible. The feeling is justifiable, because everything is interpreted in the light of EGW. I also find it amazing that many of them, even if they are "friendly" would NOT discuss things of a spiritual nature except to be argumentative. They are not interested in discussing the doctrinal issues of the church with you. I find it comical though when they attempt to defend their beliefs saying "It is Biblical. I just don't know where to find it." Blessings to all. Bmorgan | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Clay, thanks for posting. It's always a gift to us all when you share here. Your experiences have given you broad insight from which many of us learn. BTW, for all of you who might not have made the connection, Clay is the Clay Peck who wrote the book (actually derived from his sermon series!) New Covenant Christians which several of us have periodically recommended. You can get it from his church's website, www.graceplace.org. (I think it's also online there, right?)It's really good. Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
hi clay - just want to let you know how very much i appreciate your two-part sermon on the sabbath (i didn't know you were "the" clay as in "clay peck".) i ordered it from dale ratzlaff's organization, as well as dale's series "whatever happened to the law?" and richard fredericks' series on the sabbath (hope i got fredericks' name right.) to all my forum friends, if you have not listened to these tapes, i highly recommend them. they are all wonderful, but clay's particularly struck me as a good one to share with sda family & friends as it's not as lengthy as the other two i mentioned, and extremely gentle, Biblical, and full of tact and open-mindedness. anyway, just happy to know we have clay on-line with us, i always wondered if any of our "pioneers" (that's how i think of you guys) read and contributed to the forum. i know the journeys out of adventism actually go back a long time, but i was never aware of any of the "escapees" in my earlier years in adventism, funny how you never heard about it, unless of course you lived in a sda community. i would have been shocked 10 or more years ago at the thought that anyone would or could leave adventism, especially a pastor!!! thank God for where He has led me. anyway, my deepest thanks to clay and the others i've mentioned for all they've done to help all of us through this journey. love and prayers, carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I have a huge apology to make. It's in two parts: 1. I was completely wrong to ID what I believed to be the identity of a forum member. 2. Clay is a DIFFERENT Clay! I'm sorry, Clay and Clay, and I'm sorry, everyone who read my mistaken ID above. Please forgive me. I do want to say to Clay above, however, that I have appreciated your posts as well. Thank you for sharing your personal experiences with us. In fact, your sharing how your former church and friends have reacted is really significant because you have a different relationship with them than we have with most of our Adventist friends. Thank you for sharing; please continue! With sincere apologies, Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
ok, i still want to say hello and introduce myself to the clay who's not the clay i thought he was! i have such respect for pastors who are formers, and i especially appreciated/could relate to your comments about still attending your former church at times to reinforce your acceptance of them, and show that you have no hard feelings, bitterness, etc. clay, i worked for my previous sda church for a number of years, and was very close to the pastors there (we had four on staff at the time i left last fall) - (don't want to be a broken record, but don't know if you have read my previous posts over the past year) - anyway, as far as sda churches go mine was a very Christ-centered, fairly healthy (relatively speaking) church. i was extremely close to my senior pastor/boss and his wife, and had/have great respect and love for them. anyway, i've tried very hard in every possible way to show the church and friends i left that i have no bitterness or bad feelings, and love and accept them as they are, and continue to think of them as sincere Christians, but nobody, absolutely NOBODY, has ever asked about the things i discovered about egwhite and the other issues. in fact, when i bring up some of the things i've found out about egwhite, they change the subject, nobody wants to hear it. it's very frustrating at times! anyway, didn't mean to ramble, but wanted to say i can relate to your post, and sorry for the mistaken identity! (p.s. to the rest of the forum, i still highly recommend clay peck's two-part sermon on the sabbath!) love and prayers to all, carol | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Hey Colleen, You've come a long way..Had you been Adventist, you would not admit your mistake or just arrogantly pretend it never happened. It gives me hope that one of these days my face-mind-would be completely turned around and I would even forget I was ever adventist. No, no I really don't mean that. I want to be able to always relate to a struggling soul who wants or is seeking a way our of the bondage. Colleen, actually, Clay above sounds similiar to Clay Peck of Grace Place. I can understand how easy it was for you to make the mistaken connection. I bet Clay does not mind being mistaken for someone like Pastor Peck. I have read his book about the Covenants and listened to his tapes. They are essentials. Also, Carol thanks for the recommendations. Clay (whatever your last name) welcome to the forum. Thanks for sharing your graceful news and attitude toward your former congregation and adventist friends. Bmorgan | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Bmorgan, thank you for your grace! Colleen | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
I have a question that pertains to something I was confronted with recently. That would be the author Clifford Goldstein. I am mainly just curious about people's opinions of his books, so I would appreciate any feedback on them. My parents were visiting and my mom had one of his books, and I glanced at the back, it seemed to me that it was like paraphrase of 'The Great Controversy' with things like how 'the sabbath is present truth for all people' and such. I forget the name of the book though, something with 'Stripes' in it. Thanks for any input anyone may have for me. Steve | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Since I have not read his book (and probably never will) I just thought I would do a little research on the web. Here is a quote from a booklet by him available on the web. It deals with what seems like a related subject. Here is the quote: ------- "'Illuminism in reality is less an Order than a principle, and a principle which can work better under cover of something else. Weishaupt himself had laid down the precept that the work of Illuminism could best be conducted' under other names and other occupations, 'and henceforth we shall always find it carried on by this skilful system of camouflage.' Nesta Webster, Secret Societies and Subversive Movement, pg. 236 Out of the Illuminati came the following organizations: Communism, Federal Reserve Bank, Humanist Organizations, Council For Foreign Relations, World Bank, Trilateral Commission etc. According to the bible 'These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.' Revelation 17:13" ------ This includes what Mr. Goldstein thinks is important information about the parousa. Frankly, however historically correct or incorrect this sort of thing is, I am less than impressed whenever someone dwells on these so-called "conspiracies." In fact, even if this is true, my focus is elsewhere. This is clasical paraniod fear-mongering. Perhaps the disdain in my writing is a little thick. However, I believe that promoting fear is not as likely according to God's will as promoting hope and love. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I've only read Clifford Goldstein in the Adventist Review. I know he converted to SDAism from Judaism. Some of his articles have sounded absolutely tortured, the agonizing of a man who is trying to make his intellect resolve issues of faith. About two years ago I read one of his articles (we still got the Review thenówe've since discontinued our subscription), and I was overcome with the thought that I needed to pray for him. He was a man who was NOT secure in his salvation, his behavior, his ability to live what he thought he believed. I don't even remember what exactly he wrote about. I just remember how clearly I saw that he wasn't able to intellectually reconcile his beliefs. Even though he was trying hard, he had a sort-of resigned and faintly cynical tone. His writing has always seemed confused to me; he tries so hard to assert Christ's salvation but still hold onto the law and the Sabbath. Those two just don't mix. So, again with prayers for him and all of us, Colleen | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
That reminds me, Colleen. At one time, one of my wifeís Adventist Reviews was lying around. It was open to a story about an encounter between an Adventist and a Jew in Israel. Paraphrasing, the important comment by the Jew was something like, ìI have always wanted to be a Christian, but I just could not see why the Sabbath day was abolished.î To which the Adventist triumphantly said, ìWE observe the Sabbath!î And the light came down from heaven, the angels danced around their heads, blah, blah, blah. (OK, I am exaggerating a little.) Your comment about Clifford Goldstein reminded me about a thought I had about Judaism and Adventism. It occurred to me that it would be quite natural for a Jew approaching Christianity to feel more comfortable with Adventism. The Ten Commandments would still be there. You would not have to pay too much attention to ìthat change in Covenant rubbish.î You could still be kosher and know that the church strongly supports that. (a little shaky on that thought.) The crucifixion and resurrection would be there, but not too prominent. What do you think? Anyone? | ||
| Insideoutsider (Insideoutsider) |
I have a friend, a Jewish woman, who has been a born-again Christian for about 20 years. She is also a Bible Study Fellowship leader. Anyway, one day I asked her if she ever thought about being a Messianic Jew, as in keeping sabbath or some of the traditional feast days. She answered quickly with a laugh "are you kidding? I gave up all that stuff for the real thing 20 years ago. Why would I want a substitute for the Lord Jesus?" So, I would say if you are a Christ follower, you are a new creature and have no desire to hang on to the old. This woman, for a time, was rejected by her family. But not now and she continues to pray that they will come to know Salvation as she does. Now, if you wanted to practice Judaism and still be a Christian - Hmmmm | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Oh, sure, Insideoutsider, someone who truly was born again would have no trouble whether they came from Judaism or anywhere else. Adventism would not make any sense. I guess I meant if a Jew did not really understand Christianity and was not actually experiencing re-birth, would a surface examination of the Christian denominations show Adventism as ìcomfortably similar?î That is, a Jew might find that they could avoid the significant differences between the religions and stay with many familiar practices and beliefs. For that matter, they would not need to be saved. (Wonít happen until IJ is done anyway ;) ) | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Insideoutsider, that's a really great statement about your former-Jewish-but-now-Christian friend. From her Jewish background she understood that all those days and symbols were fulfilled in Jesus. I remember hearing a "fringy" Adventist young adult say several years ago, "If you liked the traditions of Judaism but wanted to be a Christian, Adventism would be the perfect answer!" But as you said above, if you are a Christ-follower, you are a new creature. That is not just a metaphor. It is real. It is inexplicable to someone who hasn't experienced it, but it is the most wonderful reality! Colleen | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
I'm glad to see some input in the area of Goldstein, thank you. The only book of his I had read was 'One Nation Under God?' and let me tell you, that was 100% Adventist scare tactic all the way, it could give a person nightmares! Anyway, I was feeling really down today, I was on my way to work, about a 30 minute drive from home and on the way I pass like 4 churches, and I was feeling down because I remember not that long ago I'd see those churches and think they were nothing but a bunch of heathen(the whole adventist arrogance thing) and I am so glad I know that isn't the case, I was more of a heathen with that attitude then those people ever were, in my opinion. Anyway, thanks for addressing every request and question I pose, I appreciate all the time and efforts expended. Steve | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
You know, Steve R, isn't it strange how often, in a time of sucess, we tend to feel the pain of regret. We sometimes find ourselves bemoaning the fact that we were so deceived and did not figure out the right answer sooner. I know I felt that keenly in a different arena. However, I hope you can acknowledge that pain and then return to the knowledge that Jesus is so pleased that you have come to know Him better. In His love and care, Jerry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Jerry, in spite of the fact that you're not a "former", you do understand much of the roller-coaster emotional effect of leaving. Thanks for your support to everyone! Steve, I remember those times of regret and guilt. I've asked God to forgive me for influencing people, however ignorantly, to keep the Sabbath. But He redeems our pasts as we bring them to Him! Praise Him! Colleen | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Thank you Colleen, I do appreciate everything you've ever said in response to any of my posts here. I'm feel better about things than I was when I posted last. I met with some people I know from a local church I occasionally attend and talked to them about it, and they know some of my background but it still surprised them, but rather than shun me like I had always done to non-adventists, they truly accepted me with welcome arms and prayed with me. Talk about showing the true Christian spirit towards one another. This church is shaping up to be the one I make my regular church, and they preach grace more than any other church I've been in, in my entire life, and more importantly, they are alive in Christ. When you talk with them and interact with them, you can't help but see that, it radiates from them in their faces and actions. Too bad my family is still trying to get me to place myself into bondage again, they just won't give up, but I pray for them to experience true freedom like I finally have opened my mind and heart to. Steve | ||
| Pathfinder (Pathfinder) |
I have worked in a synagogue for four years now, and your comments about SDA's and Judaism are interesting to me. We have in the main sanctuary a set of huge, colorful tapestries depicting scenes from the Torah (First 5 books of the Bible). These tapestries were done by a SDA woman who apparently gave them to the synagogue. As an SDA, it was always my impression that the church felt a special affinity with the Jews because of Shabbat (Sabbath) and the somewhat kindred dietary laws; it is interesting to see that feeling returned to some degree. For a while we had a SDA radio station playing on our " on hold" mode of the telephones, until one congregant called the synagogue on Saturday and got an earful of SDA sermonizing. (It was the fault of the Cantor -- he liked the music they played during the week, and as he does not use a radio on Shabbat, he had no idea it turned into church on Saturday!) The synagogue gets quite a few calls from SDA's as well as other Christians, who either wish to experience the services there or to understand a Hebrew interpretation of a complicated Biblical passage. Then we have the Messianc "Jews"...who come in to purchase menorahs and mezzuzahs from the gift shop. I have not met any Messiancs who come from a Jewish backgrounds; rather they of are of Christian background and are drawn for whatever reason to the Jewish heritage and practices. Some may have had a Jewish ancestor, or think they did, or wish they did. The Jewish attitude seems to be that this is yet another guise for converting Jews to Christianity, and as most Christian religions do indeed desire converts, that is probably not too far fetched. I have been impressed with the equilibrium that the Jews manage here in the Bible Belt, where they are surrounded by people who wish to convert them from a way of life and being that they have managed to maintain against terrible odds. They encourage communication between the different faiths and cultures in the area, through interfaith discussion groups and through exchanging visits with each other's congregations, such as the Freedom Seder (with African Americans). They are comfortable in the faith that they possess, and give each other the freedom to interpret their Judaism as best fits them--as religion, as community, or as tradition. I believe that it is this sense of self respect and respect of others that gives them the ability to keep their cool when they are called everything from holders of an oudated covenant to out-and-out Christ killers. As a former SDA, closely associated with the Jewish community, I have pondered some ironies. I was reading recently some of what Ellen White wrote about the terrible persecutions that were to come to the Sabbath keepers. She wrote the particular passage around the turn of the century. Mrs. White saw the first world war, but she died before the second. I have wondered what she would have made of the fact that the world did indeed rise up and persecute the Sabbathkeepers -- but they weren't her Sabbathkeepers. They were the Jews. |
