Archive through December 27, 2002 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 3 » ANGER & FRUSTRATION ABOUT ADVENTISM » Archive through December 27, 2002 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Wally (Wally)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,

Your comments about behavior at the SDA service are consistent with what I see. I am not SDA, but attend an SDA church fairly regularly with my wife. We have discussed several times the noise and commotion level at her church - we both find it very difficult to concentrate on what is going on.

Her church has a number of small kids, so that certainly adds to the noise. Several years ago, a few of the moms in the congregation tried to establish a child-care room for the little kids during church - but this was met with a cool response from the pastor - apparently something about EGW recommending that all kids be in church.

Another thing that I have noticed is that the general format of the SDA services provide for little interaction/participation by the congregation. My background is with a church with a more liturgical service style - responsive readings, more songs and hymns throughout the service, etc. At the SDA church, other than kneeling for prayer, there is not much between the opening and closing hymns to participate in - you just sit there.

Frankly, I feel sorry for the SDA's who, in my opinion, have to endure very unfulfilling worship services. They put up with it because, I assume, they feel they have no choice or alternatives.

A very Blessed Christmas to all!

Wally
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Wally, Yes, I hadn't thought of that but my home church now is Lutheran and there is much audience partisaipation. It's constant stand up, sit dowm, recite the creeds, verbal prayer intercessions by the audience after the formal prayer requests are read, congreation singing, an oral Bible passage read in unison every week, the Our Father said in unison every week before the close of the service, the sign of God's peace at the beginning of the service and then of course, the partaking of the Euharist. Those Lutheran's really have to pay attention because it's a constant moving along service. But, mostly I just feel sad or the SDA's that they aren't getting a real gung-ho closeness to our Lord during the service. I looked around this past Saturday at the folks in the pews and generally got the impression most were experiencing complete drugery. Sabra, I wish you a wonderful trip. Be careful while in Forida, they get some wicked weather down there. Run and hide in the celler if you hear of a hurricane on the way. Another Carol, my prayers are with your family. It can be hard on the family members. One lady who is in my Monday evenng prayer group has an adult son who is now in the process of becomming a JW. The poor lady has been informed by her son that is children are to receive no more birthday presents, etc. It can be so difficult on those who love someone to see the loved one taken in by false teachings.By prayers go out to each of you in your love that your family members can let theselves be open to the Holy Spirit's leading.
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra,

The sunshine is so wonderful here in Florida that you will be able to stay out and "going" all the time! Enjoy your stay and don't let anyone get between you and Jesus, here or anywhere.

Susan 3 and all

Having a member of the family caught up in Adventism is a heart breaking experience. Most of my family is. My wife knows in her mind that they are wrong, but just can't get over the fear and guilt of severing completely. The guilt that was instilled in her and the fear of "loosing her salvation" is so ingrained. It can be a constant source of "undercurrent" turmoil. My prayers for those of you who share that situation. Remember, Jesus said to "love" them. True Love cast out all fear, and is the one response they can never defeat with their legalism. When times are hard, the law can be a very cold companion. It's purpose is to show us our sinfullness, not save us. That makes for some very guilt ridden people. Always look to the Cross and never be afraid to point the way for them, as well. Rather than getting caught up in discussions on their terms (ie the law), something Paul cautioned Titus against, point them to Jesus and His Cross. Never allow them to side track you from the Gospel and the Cross. It is the "power of salvation to all who believe". Good advice from Paul in the mid first century. Still good advice, today!

In His Grace!

<><]
Thomas
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dea Thomas, I have ben told by my dear, sweet mother as well as other SDA's that if someone "knows the truth" (i.e: SDA) and they get away from the truth it would be better for that person to at least join another Sabbath-keeping church but if the person won't do that then it would be better for the person to give up reliion completely than to attend Sunday-keeping church. This is because the person from his/her upbringing or conversion to SDA KNOWS the saving truth of he Sabbath and as long as the person attends no church at all there is a least the possibility that he/she would still come back to the Sabbath. But, if th fallen-away one starts attending a Sunday then she/he will get too suked into the pagan traditions as well as get too closely friends with the Sunday-keepers. It is harder to get one back to the truth who attends a Sunday church than one who has no church ties at all. The name of Jesus did not even enter into the conversation except by me. I believe this to be a standard belief among SDA's. I alo beliene it is very sad. BTW, I think it is no coinsindence that SDA and the word "SAD" are made up of the very same letters.
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan2

Yes Maam, I know. I was born and raised in the organization. I too thought the same thing and told people the same thing. Like you, I have been approached so many times by many SDA's, wondering how I could leave the "truth". Each time, their questions are predictable. 1. How could you give up the Sabbath?. 2. How can you believe without Sister White? and 3. Can you really believe that you will go to heaven when you die?. Never, not a single time have I ever been asked about my walk with Jesus. In fact, I don't remember of His name ever being brought into the conversation, unless I brought it in. One of the last times, the conversation ended by a dear friend telling me that "The law is all there is for me. The Creator is who we worship by keeping His day." I responded that to me, any god claims to be a creator but only my God loved me enough to come here and allow me and my kind to abuse Him, Spit on Him, Beat Him, and kill Him. I worship the God of the Empty Tomb, Jesus Christ, and to me the Cross and that empty tomb is "all there is". She responded, "oh, that too."

Loving them can be so hard, but that's what Jesus said to do. And He was dealing with legalists of a greater kind than even SDA's.

If He can call a Saul out of legalism and turn him into a Paul, He can do it for any of them!

In His Grace!

<><

Thomas
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, welcome to the forum. We will be praying for your son-in-law and for you and your family.

Sabra, if you're going to start a Bible study with an Adventist, my suggestion is to start with Galatians. It very directly deals with exactly the problems of Adventism, and most Adventists haven't read it--at least not deeply. You're welcome to use the Galatians studies on this website on the "Studies" page if you wish.

One thing I'm really aware of this Christmas is that I love the songs, etc., that not only remind us of Jesus' birth but also of his death and resurrection. I used to be annoyed by references to the cross at Christmas--I thought they detracted from the Christmas "feeling". Now, I feel such a sense of awe and gratitutde, and Christmas would be nearly trivial if it weren't for the cross.

Praise Jesus for Himself!

Colleen
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, along with a study of Galatians, do a study on what the Word is! It is the literal, inerrant Word of God and is exactly what God wanted us to have. It's hard to have a study with SDA's because usually their theology consists of telling you why the Bible can't be believed the way it reads. They always have some clever argument that sounds so good---but remember that on anything important the Word is crystal clear.

This bent of the SDA's goes all the way back to William Miller and his convoluted arguments about why Christ would return in or about 1844---to which the Sunday keeping Christians pointed him to the text that says 'No man knows the hour'....and guess who was right? But, the SDA's are still doing the same thing---clever arguments instead of the clear instruction of the Word.

As for why so many SDA churches are so noisy and irreverent, well, my take is this. SDA's do not believe that a church is 'sacred'--it's just a building, it isn't holy. So, there is no intrinsic reason to treat it differently than any other meeting place. Further, the elders tend to run the church and most of them are doctors who belong to the same clique and don't want to rock the boat. The pastor doesn't dare rock the boat as it is inevitable that there is an elder somewhere who has a good friend high up in the conference. If the pastor gets on the 'outs' with the influential elder, his career and advancement can be in very serious trouble. The result is nothing gets done and the church just goes along doing the 'same-0, same-0'. At least, that's the way it's been in the SDA churches I've belonged too...

Thank God I'm out of that mess!
Bill.
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have to agree that what I experienced in SDA congregations is a lack of unity, a lack of connection with anything spiritual that is happening.

But could I make another observation about style of service simply as a matter of education? Our service is definitely not what you have defined as a "reverant" atmosphere. It is not generally quiet, there is no chanting together of anything, no unison standing, sitting, and kneeling, etc. You will find the same thing inmany congregations that have a contemporary worship service. But you would be greatly mistaken to assume that means that there is no reverance or that we see nothing there that is sacred.

During the service you might hear laughter, our pastor is known to have some rather interesting visual aids at times. Sometimes he uses the participation of the congregation to make a point. There may be shouts of "amen", etc. Could even be someone good-naturedly poking the person next to them and nodding toward the pastor in a "you NEED to hear that" comment. And all that can happenw ithout breaking the reverance of a service. The points are made very clearly. Hearts are touched. Lives are changed, Addictions are broken. Salvations happen.

When you enter the building you would be struck mostly that it resembles a family get together. People greet one another with smiles, laughter, hugs, and excalmations of delight at seeing one another. We have no "song service" as some would term it. Instead we call it a worship service. Most in the congregation have their eyes shut throughout this part of the service.

They do that because they are concentrating totally on communicating the words of the songs directly with the Lord. The interesting thing is that, even tho our eyes are shut, there is a real unity with the rest of the people in the flow of the service. The music may have been a quiet song, yet suddenly all will feel inclined to move into a much more loud, celebratory type song, heavy on the drums. Or may suddenly move from one of those songs into a time of deep worship, a quiet song, or even fall to complete silence.

Many many times I have had a visitor tell me after the service that they have never experienced anything like it. They have been accustomed to a more traditional type service as you have described, yet will tell me with tears in their eyes that they have never experienced such a deep sence of the the presence of the Lord in a service.

I guess I'm just telling you all this to point out that it is not tight structure an quiet that delineates "reverance". It is the attitude of the heart of those in attendance that makes a difference in a service. I've been in a service whose style was identical to that in our own church, yet felt the coldness that was there, because the heart condition was wrong. Are the people there to really connect with the Lord? Or are they there to go through the motions of what they are "supposed" to do to be "spiritual". Are they there for the warm fuzzies of the style of music that they like whether somber or out there? The style of services both you and I have described can be just as dead and devoid of reverance depending on the spiritual condition of those in attendance. That's the problem with the SDA service...lack of connection with the source.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Lydell, that is just what I was trying to express in my first post on this topic. I have been up here to the Nazarene church and although the worship style is much different than my personal prefferene I too believe the presence of the Lord is in that congreation very strongly. Up at the Naz the worship style s very contemporary. Contemporary and UNreverence I do not consider to be the same at all. At the SDA up here it just seems to me that a large potion of the folks in the pews are just plain totally uninterested in the service, therefore are disrespecful to God, disespectful to the people up front leading the service and disrespectful to the few in there who really would like to be able to pay attention. I occassionally go to a Monday evening prayer and praise group. It is at the local Catholic church. A ot os it s spontaineous prayer, talking in tongues (which I do not do but I do watch the others do it), and breaking out in songs. But, it is not chaos. It is not rude and disrespectful to anyone, especially our Lord. ne ladt always brings her trambeline and another brings her mirachas. But, it is a joyful noise unto the loud. Not just noise to annoy everyone else. There's a big difference between the two. A lot is style. Yet, up here at the local SDA thee seems to be no style, just chaos.
Terryk (Terryk)
Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Merry Grace filled Christmas. This is such a wonderful time it has taken awhile to get to the point to enjoy life since like must of you said we had to live in fear since our salvation was in question since we left the church well we know not really just in SDA eyes. There are so many prayers needed to free those slaves. I was wondering would anyone want to maybe pick a time that we all could send up a special prayer for freedom for those we love to see the light. I of course am getting no where fast with Russell and a wonderful letter was sent to our former friend and pastor but he still wanted to know what we thought about stae of the dead oh cares it is not and issue after you leave the cult. I really feel for those of you who have sent your letters about family members still there and their failure to see the light of Christ. I will pray for each one that I have read. Thanks for listening and sharing. I have to give you all a laugh. I am explaining salvation with Russell I say we have to accept Christ as our savior and believe he died for our sins. He wrote back how is that different what you learned as a SDA. Oh my I think I was told many more things take off that makeup and rings and keep the sabbath etc. am I correct? Am I crazy? Well have a great Christmas Terry
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, December 24, 2002 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Merry Christmas, everyone! Isn't it amazing how different Christmas is now that you're born again? We had some SDA loved ones with us this eveningóthey even went to the Christmas Eve service with us. They really didn't appreciate itó"Go Tell It On the Mountain" was over the top for themóand although they admitted the Prayer in Motion was beautiful (done to Point of Grace singing "Sing We Now of Christmas/What Child Is This?") they thought it had no place in church.

I'm thinking that an insistence on formal worship and classical-style music is often a cover-up for the fact that people do not experience the indwelling Holy Spirit. They must attempt to get external reverence because internally there is no spontaneous worship. The loftiness of formal services and classical music sometimes elicits an emotional esthetic response that masquerades as a spiritual response. When you don't know Jesus and can't feel love and praise for him, the only thing you have left is a sort-of "worship" of art.

I have to say, as I sit here on the verge of Christmas morning, that I am in awe of what God did and is doing, and I praise him for holding each of us securely in his hands.

I wish all of you a wonderful Christmas marked by peace and deep joy that transforms you and redeems the past.

With prayers for all of us and praise to Jesus,
Colleen
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 4:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loneviking,

You stated this:

"It's hard to have a study with SDA's because usually their theology consists of telling you why the Bible can't be believed the way it reads. They always have some clever argument that sounds so good---but remember that on anything important the Word is crystal clear."

Oh this is so true and I cannot understand how one can believe in God's Words and even use many of them as Truth, yet refuse to believe ALL of His Words. It's sad and we all need to pray for them, don't we. I know many who post or just read this forum are praying for them. Some or most SDAs are being decieved (is that too harsh a word to use?). If so, I will say the word "mis-led."

Sabra or Susan, (I forget who asked this question about the service in the SDA church).

When I was attending the SDA church, it felt cold to me and after the service I would try to get to know others and "fellowship." It was impossible. Seemed like, to me anyhow, that they were very stand-offish and a wall was between us.

Upon going to other churches, it was completely different and people who didn't even know me, would come up and introduce themselves and we would talk about the sermon and other things of God. It was so nice to experience that. So far, in my church going, there has only been one other church that were stand-offish and I stopped attendance due to that. Really, it didn't seem like a family to me or that I was welcomed.

When I went to the church where Richard and Colleen attends, it was absolutely wonderful and a woman after the service came up to me and told me that she had been praying for me since I walked into the church service. The experience I had there was awesome and a never to forget one.

That was a weekend that I was spending with my SDA friend. Upon telling her what had happened to me, she instantly told me it was satan. See, I had experienced something that I hadn't experience since my Baptism in 1999, that was the overpowering of the Holy Spirit Himself. So powerful that walking out into the parking lot to leave, I kept telling Colleen and Richard, as I was pointing back at the church, "something happened to me in there!" Both Colleen and Richard smiled at me and informed me that it was indeed the Holy Spirit and that it had happened to them as well when they started attending that church.

And to think, I was a real cynic with regards to churches at the time and was expecting the same ole boring stuff. Not that day! For that day, is one that convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God indeed was in that place!

Hallelu-YAH to God Almighty! He had showed me my errors in my thinking and attitude, and also, I might add, convicted me for pride. Because that day in the church service, while being over powered by the Holy Spirit Himself, I was busy trying to hide this so nobody could see what was happening to me. But all in vain did my attempts succeed....God over-ruled my pride. And suddenly I was VERY aware of my own ego/pride. Amazing God we serve and a Powerful God indeed!

It was not the evil one, and to this day I will always thank God for that experience.

That service, by the way, upon walking in, I first noticed the stage area with a drum set on it and thought to myself.."what is this? a rock concert!?" I continued in that train of thought until the music began, that's when things started happening that I had no control over whatsoever and continued all through the service. Infact, to this day, I couldn't tell you what the pastors sermon was on for I was busy, due to pride, trying to hide the POWER OF GOD. True story and a great one for me to always remember.

Thank you Colleen and Richard for taking me to that service by direction of the Lord.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Denise Gilmore aka tim (as with every Christmas now...."and may God bless us all, everyone") :)
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 9:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for sharing that experience with us Denise. It is such a precious thing when the Lord meets you like that in a service, isn't it? It's frustrating to try to explain to someone who has never experienced this sense ofthe presence of God that you KNOW.....a dancing, reverberating through your whole body knowing that God is HERE. I just love it when we have someone come to church for the first time, expecting to just go thru the motions of going to another service, the worship starts, and suddenly unexpectedly they find themselves standing there weeping from that warm presence of the Holy Spirit.

What a precious precious thing it is that He didn't just come as that baby in a manger, didn't just die for us, didn't just rise again and return to heaven, but literal makes His dwelling inside us. May everyone have a blessed Christmas!
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last night I attended the Christmas Eve service over here at St. John's. The responsive reading was so nice that I thought I'd like to share it with all of you today. I will put the pastors words in small case letters and the congreations words in capital letters. Here goes: P: 'twas the night before christmas and all through the church: C: THE CHOIRS WERE READIED AND ON THE PEWS THEY WERE PERCHED. P: the lights of the tree on the chrismons did shine, C: DECLAIRING THE POWER OF THE ALMIGHTY DEVINE. P: when what to our wandering hearts should appear: C: BUT THE CHILD WHO WAS CHRIST AND FOTOLD BY THE SEERS. P: not a palace or house colored white; C: DID THE HUMBLE FORGIVER OF SINS SHOW HIS MIGHT. P: look not to the wherehouses full of stuff for the gifts of love, C: BUT TO THE HEARTH OF OUR HEARTS TO SEE GODS SON COME DOWN FROM ABOVE. P: for what to our wonderous eyes should appear; C: BUT, A MANGER BARE, DONKEYS THERE AND EMMANUEL 'GOD IS WITH US' DEAR. P: and at the end of his life we heard him exclaim while he hung there in pain, C: 'IT IS ACCOMPLISHED, ALL IS DONE, TO LOVE WITHOUT PAY SO GODS PEACE YOU MAY GAIN'. P: what more could be said but "amen and amen", C: HALLELUJAH, SING CAROLES AND PRAISE WITHOUT END!
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praise God for all of you who were able to celebrate this Christmas free. Even though I cannot tell you good news yet about my son-in-law I still have hope. My grandson called this morning to tell me what he had gotten for Christmas and I had to bite my tongue to keep from asking did Daddy come since I know that my daughter had invited him to spend Christmas with them just like I had invited him to spend Christmas with us when we celebrated last Friday and Saturday but he was not here. I'm crying now because I miss him so much. We had such a wonderful relationship before this thing ever happened. I also enjoyed our Christmas eve program although I thought in the morning I would not be able to go since we have had sickness gone rampant here and I started to feel better in the afternoon so was glad I could go although my husband was not able since he was now sick. I have only missed 1 Christmas eve program in all my 57 years and that was due to sickness. In 1968 I was overdue pregant with our yougest son and felt a real kinship to Mary. Oh how the many different services have meant so much to me. Last night my son-in-law was at the program since the boys were in it but like Colleen said about their friends talking about it, that would never happen with my son-in-law and there is the awful frustration. We ask questions but get no answers, he doesn't tell us if he thinks something is wrong or not so we just wonder. I made a special lunch for my husband and I since we are home alone having had our Christmas already and prayed a special prayer that the spirit of God would be realized and felt a sense of peace.
Terryk: I think that would be a wonderful idea to pray at a certain for these precious people. Maybe on New Years day.
God's richest blessing to you all this wonderful day of Celebration of our SAVIOUR'S birth.
Clay (Clay)
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have enjoyed this discussion on worship and just have to add a few thoughts.
I believe that true worship is experienced when true worshipers sense the presence of God and shut themselves off from whatever is going on around them and through the presence of the Holy Spirit and by the blood of Jesus Christ know they are standing in God the Father's presence. It is just you and God. Face to face.

The certain knowledge of what you are "in Christ" because of His encredable love fills your heart with such joy and you can't help want to express worship in whatever way you can.
The tears may flow, or you may sing for joy, or just bow in humble adoration.... but you must worship. Your heart will seemly burst if you do not.

That worship experience can take place in different denominations including SDA.

The building is not the holy thing. The building can be a barn, a wonderful cathederal, a simple church or a beautiful hillside, or your own private study.
Yes I believe there are 'worship leaders' that are very gifted at leading a congregation into real worship. They must be walking 'in the Spirit' to be able to accomplish that I believe.

Willowcreek Church in Chicago has been leaders in helping people understand how to lead a congregation into worship, but even with all their help, without the Holy Spirit, it will not be successful.

I have attended churches where the worhsip leader desperately tried to lead the congregation into worhsip with a lot of hoopla and it was meaningless confusion and noise. I have also worshiped in churches that were so steeped in form and tradition and readings (popping up and down every few minutes) and as I looked over the congregation, they were like robots. It was cold and meaningless.

If I go to any church and trully seek to worship and am open to the Holy Spirit, I can experience worship even in a simple old hymn or a statement that will carry me off into the presence of God.

I guess what I am saying, worhsip comes from our heart's longing to praise God. Certain things can be done to help us come into God's presence but ultimately it will depend on our desire to worship.

Before I stepped away from pastoral ministry in the Adventist denomination, I pastored a church for a number of years that had learned a lot about worship from attending many Willowcreek Seminars. We would often have visitors from other congregations including SDA, who would afterward express how meaningful the worship experience was for them. Yes it was far from being the norm in Adventism but it still was an Adventist church.
At least that is what the sign said.
The New Testment gospel of Jesus Christ was presented most every week and the false doctrines were never focused on. For some people it was the spring-board for them to finally step away from the denominational chains.

It bothers me when I hear people on this forum paint all Adventist churches with the same brush because I know it is not true. There are Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist and a whole lot of other churches that have worhsip services that are as dry and meaningless as many SDA's and there are many Sunday Christians who are as steeped in legalistic behavior as some SDA.

May the truth of the New Covenant set us all free to worship in Spirit and in TRUTH.

May the year 2003 be a precious year of 'spiritual growth' for every one of us who earnestly seek a deeper walk with HIM.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I made it back from the SDA Christmas. Very disappointing. It was more or less a secular Christmas. I don't think I will ever go there again for Christmas! I felt almost like I took a vacation from the Lord, isn't that weird? No heavy discussions. My Aunt, who is about the most un-SDA I know, brought up the fact that Jesus preached to the prisoners while in the tomb. My mother told her she was crazy and I said it was in there, that's what it says! My aunt said she thought she and I read the same Bible. :) (This is the same aunt who told me a year or so ago that she was sure the Sabbath was just for the Israelites) One thing they kept saying, though is how the Bible is inspired. (I thought you all said they don't believe that? Is there any SDA documents or Pastors that say they don't believe this? If so, I'd like to see them, is it in the 27 fundamental beliefs?)

Very stressful, glad to be home!

Thanks for the suggestions for the Bible study, this isn't an SDA group though, these are employees of my husband's that know very little about the bible. One guys wife has been working with an SDA for 10 years and has recently been visiting her church but she knows nothing about their doctrine except that they go on Saturday. Her mother is Pentecostal and I hoping to shed some light and keep her out of the SDA clutches.

Blessings for a wonderful New Year! Hope you all had a better Christmas than me...I did get a Hebrew-Greek study Bible though and I am very excited about that! :)
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to make several comments on the forgoing topics. It is my understanding that the SDA do teach the Bible is the inspired Word od God. I believe they do not though theac it is the infallable Word of God. There is a big difference between those two concepts. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, Clay I agree with you totally. It is not the building or the decour but the Presence and indwelling of Christ that leads to true worship. Now, did any of you others recently receive a new issue od Proclamation? It sure is an interesting issue. There is so much in there that is quotes from Jan Paulsen that is the exact same thing the JW believe. For instance that they and they only ARE the called remenmant, not a part of God's remenment that they and they only have the last days truth and understanding about prophecy, etc. I find those kinds of self-ego-stroaking beliefs to be really hard to deal with. How can one group teach that they and they only have insight to ALL TRUTH and how come so many people fall for that line? I thibk that is sad. I like believing that Jesus came so that all who believe on him and call upon His Holy Name well be saved and have eternal life. Praise Him!
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Clay,

You stated this in part:

"There are Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist and a whole lot of other churches that have worhsip services that are as dry and meaningless as many SDA's and there are many Sunday Christians who are as steeped in legalistic behavior as some SDA."

I'll say! Infact, most all churches have some form of legalistic behavior. It's not just SDAs. And that is why I don't attend church services that often. It always gets my goat and inside, I feel both sad and angry over this truth.

Also, EVERY church that I've been to, has their own little cliques. I hate that! I'm never a part of these little cliques due to dress style, or my smoking, or simply that I don't flower up my words and say all the things the way they'd say them. My words come out in simplistic, yet very "politically incorrect" ways. Yet, they are truth as I've found in the Bible, but due to the way I say it or present it, it's looked down upon. In other words....those people are very pompous in MY opinion and need to get off of their high horse. They are sinners just like myself.

Thanks for speaking truth.

Blessings to all,

Denise Gilmore, the very politically incorrect, untactful, rough mannerism lady who is also saved by GRACE ALONE, just like everyone else who BELIEVES. Your sister in Christ Jesus!
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Friday, December 27, 2002 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, my sister

Your description of yourself sounds a whole lot like the descriptions given to Peter. I'd say you are in good company.

That said, the purpose of church attendence is to worship God in the fellowship of believers. There is no "true" church and there is no "perfect" church. Everyone there is a "sinner sved by grace". You aren't there to please them or be like them. You are there to draw near to Jesus and be like Him.

The church has been a very nasty lady many times over the years. But, she is still the bride of Christ and I really believe it is important for me to publicly be part of it, warts, freckles, sinners, hypocrites, and all. Sometimes when I look at myself I see many of the same things that I dislike in the other hypocrites at church, that I love to point my finger at. Then I realize that if Jesus can forgive me and if my brothers and sisters can live with me, then maybe I can live with them and forgive them and love them, too. Together, we carry the word to the world around us in the best way we know how.

In His Grip
<><
Thomas

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration