| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
What do you all think? Should we plead the blood over our children and circumstances? Is it wrong to annoint your house with oil? Are these superstitious or faith based? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, there is no New Testament precedent for these actions. I do believe, however, that we can ask God to protect and bless our families because as His children, we surrender our families to him for his guidance and protection. Paul does make the very interesting comment in 1 Corinthians 7:14, after saying that a believing spouse should not divorce an unbelieving spouse as long as the unbeliever wishes to stay, "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband, Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." There are differences of opinion about exactly what Paul meant by that, but we can safely deduce that at the very least he is saying that children raised in the home of a believer have the advantage of being not only taught about Jesus but also of living in his presence, since the believing parent is the temple of the Holy Spirit. I think it is always appropriate, as God's children saved by the blood of Jesus, to surrender our kids to God's care and discipline, asking him to deal with them and to intervene in their lives so they will come to know and love him. When we have accepted Jesus, his blood always covers us. I think that our biggest problem, though, (speaking from experience) is giving up our desire to intervene and control our kids' choices and decisions to insure that they will DO THE RIGHT THING. I've had to come to the place where I'm willing to ask God to do whatever is necessary in my sons' lives to bring his healing and growth to them. I've had to give up my urgent desire to control things and recognize that God loves them more than I can, and as my Savior and theirs, he will protect and care for them according to his plans for them. I don't know exactly how it works, but the Bible does ask us to pray for each other. Intercessory prayers do make a difference. As far as anointing a house goes, my personal conviction is that the anointing itself probably is immaterial. Richard and I often pray that God will be present in our home, protect us from evil, and cause His words to be spoken and His love to be realized by whoever is here. We have come to recognize that even our house is a provision from God. We are merely caretakers of it. He has provided it in order to give us a venue in which to live and minister and grow, and it is his. Our response is to praise Him for his provision and to ask his presence to be here always. In short, I suspect that the "formula" approach of pleading the blood and anointing a house do not provide any benefit greater than the sincere prayer of surrender and request for the protection and presence of God's Spirit. After all, Jesus said that just as a father would not give his son a stone if he asked for bread, how much more would the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask Him for it? That being said, I cannot say that it is wrong to plead the blood or anoint one's house. Whatever we do as to the Lord, He accepts as a gift of faith. I just don't see a New Testament precedent for these things. Instead, we've been granted the status of God's children, and we now have permission to ask him directly for the things we desire! Isn't that awesome?! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I'd say, Susan, you should read the first chapter of Job. We don't know much about his family, but we do know that as a result of Jobs' prayers a 'hedge' had been put around him and his family that Satan couldn't get through without permission! Job didn't have to annoint his house or do any other ritual other than pray. So, without a direct New Testament precedent and having it work for Job who was under the same type of covenant as we are---I'd say prayer will be enough. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
What does "pleading the blood" mean? I have never heard that term. As far as annointing with oil that is bibical in regards to the sick and also on Good Friday the minister annoints our forheads with the sign of the cross in conentrated oil. There are other occssions when the pastor does this, too. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Susan, Apparently you aren't the only one who hasn't heard of it! I didn't realize it was such a controversial subject until I suggested a person plead the blood of Jesus over his demon-oppressed (his words) wife. I plead the blood of Jesus over my children every day and over our home every night for protection. I have been praying about it since it was brought to my attention that it is not biblical. I've also been studying into it more. The way it was explained to me is that the priests sprinkled blood on the altar morning and night for protection and we should do the same in prayer for protection. Not that it is required, just as a prayer of faith, like praying for a a hedge of protection for your home or loved ones--which probably isn't well-practiced either. Well, I also annointed my house with oil while praying for God's blessing on it and it seemed that everything went a lot better after that (this was in the other house). Evidiently this isn't biblical either. Well, I prayed about it and the woman with the issue of blood came to mind. She wasn't biblically "required" to touch the hem of Jesus' garment and she was healed by her faith. I found where Jacob annointed the stone he slept on and of course the tabernacle and all of it's utensils were annointed. I'm concerned, very concerned about "preaching another gospel" I don't want to do anything superstitious. Faith is supposed to be faith and everyone wants to put so much intellect into it. | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
Hey guys! As far as "pleading the blood" goes, I've heard this many times before when I was first studying the Bible for myself. My parents were involved in a Pentecostal denomination and a lot of the things I heard from church and from popular TBN televangelists hit on this. (I don't mean to single them out, thats just been my only exposure to it.) A lot of the references I've heard to it were how it's already been described in this thread as "pleading" over a home, a loved one, or a situation. However, in reading through this today I thought of something. What exactly are you trying to get the blood of Christ to do? What can we ask the blood of Christ to do that it hasn't already done? Through the blood, we have everything and are everything the New Testament says we have and are. We dont have anything less than total reconciliation and redemption through the blood, we have everything that pertains to life and godliness through the blodd. What MORE can we ask it to do? I certainly dont mean this to discount what Colleen said about us being free to ask God our desires for protection or whatnot, because I agree with that. But I'm not so sure about the whole "pleading the blood" because through the blood we have everything we'll ever need. Praise God for that! =) Maybe I'm way off base here, but that's just my thoughts. Joel | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Well Sabra, I definitely believe that pleading the blood of Jesus is in the New Testament. Christ didn't only provide for our salvation at the cross. He also opened the way for us to have access to all spiritual blessings, for instance, protection, healing, peace, joy, etc. We have access to all those things that a good Father does for His children and a good Shepherd does for His sheep. As Colleen said above talking about intercession. God does all of those things. It is His power alone that can provide those things. But we are still commanded to be involved in praying for others, for praying for situations, for our leaders, and for engaging in spiritual warfare. It is all His authority and power. But, we are still commanded to put on our armor and stand. We are to exercise His delegated authority as His ambassadors for His kingdom here on earth. As you pointed out in your example of the woman with the issue of blood, the healing is available, but she had to ask. It makes me wonder when I read, "you do not have because you do not ask" just how much more I could be having if I bothered asking for it. To me, pleading the blood of Jesus is declaring to satan that I recognize that he has already been defeated by Christ at the cross (i.e. the blood) and I am not willing to be cowed by him. He does not have free reign to cause trouble in my family or over my stuff, I don't belong to him, I belong to Christ. It is a reminder to me of those things as well. It is standing. As for annointing a house. Well, as long as you realize that the oil itself has no power, that this is a symbolic gesture representing the covering of God, I don't see a problem with it. I think people get caught up sometimes in needing to see the precise wording of something in the scriptures and ignore the overall teaching on a subject. We are told to have communion....it doesn't say anything about putting the stuff on pretty plates or in those little bitty cups. Doesn't mean we can't do it that way. Hey, it's the example that popped into my head. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Lydell, I agree that there is nothing wrong with using symbolic gestures, as long as those gestures do not become ritualistic. For example, churches that believe in annointing with oil will quickly elevate this to a doctrinal level. Pretty soon, people do begin to see the "significance" of the oil. Its kind of like believing the bread in the communion plate needs to be unleavened and that whatever remains needs to be burned and the remaining juice needs to be poured out on the gound. Or believing that no one should touch the sacraments except ordained elders/deacons. On second thought, forget all of that. No one would actually believe something so crazy. [smile] Doug | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I am new to this website as far as posting on it but have been scouring it for months. I have had many things I wanted to say to you all but couldn't get my password approved. Now I am in but can't remember what I wanted to say. The main thing I wanted to tell all of you is how much I apprieciate this fellowship. I feel very alone because I am the only one of my family to leave the SDA denomination. I just spent Christmas day in a Bible study with my SDA preacher brother who has a very complicated chart for explaining the Gospel. I just kept going back to how simple it all is, even a child or people with low IQ's could grasp it. I kept repeating to him Romans 10 which says..."The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." He kept saying, yes I agree but...once you are saved you are to be perfect. He says the Holy Spirit can make you perfect. I don't think that happens while we are down here on earth. I think that happens when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. I think that belief sets people up for failure. We are still sinners. If we become perfect down here, will we still recognize our need for a savior? Is this EGW stuff or Biblical? I agree once we are saved the Holy Spirit enters us and we manifest fruits of the Spirit but I can't agree that we become perfect. He says that Jesus has our same nature because he already had the Holy Spirit in him when he came down here but he took on human form so now that we have the Holy Spirit available to us through Jesus we now have the exact same makeup as he does, half human half H.S. so we can become perfect. Something doesn't feel right about this. Can anyone help me? Thanks in advance. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Welcome, Pecchei, it will be great having your imput in this discussion group. Sabra, don't we pleed the Blood of Jesus everytime we acknowledge that his death was/is the atnement for our transgressions? Besides, (and I KNOW most f you disagree with me on this but I'll say it again anyway) whenever we partake of the Euchartist we take in the blood and the body of Jesus. By far, this is the most awsme and holy part of the worship service. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hi, Pheeki! Welcome! You're right, there is something wrong with what your brother says. We do not have the same "makeup" that Jesus has; He is eternally God, and we never will be God. The fact that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit does not make us half Holy Spirit. We are 100% human miraculously made alive by the Holy Spirit so our spirits are connected to God instead of disconnected as they were before our new birth. Jesus was not conceived by two humans; He was conceived by a woman and the Holy Spirit. He is unique in the universe; He is God, and he has also taken on humanity. He is, however, no less GOD. As far as the sinlessness goesóin Romans 7 Paul discusses the continuing conflict Christ-followers have in being born again and alive to God but still being housed in our unredeemed bodies. We are no longer ruled by our sinful natures when we're born again because we're now spiritually alive and alive to God and to his holiness. But we aren't yet delivered from our sinful flesh. Consequently, our sinful flesh still habitually wants us to please ourselves, but our living spirits (the Holy Spirit's promptings in us) draw us to holiness. Every time we say yes to the growth the Holy Spirit wants to accomplish in us, we grow more like Jesus. This growing will continue all of our earthly lives. In God's eyes, however, we are considered perfect and righteous the minute we accept Jesus. He covers us with HIS righteousness, and when God looks at us, he sees the blood of Jesus covering our sins, and He counts us righteous. The problem with the Adventist argument is twofold: one is that Adventists don't know how to explain being born from above because they don't believe we have spirits that are separate from our minds/bodies. They end up with the false assumption that the Holy Spirit in us makes us part Holy Spirit instead of simply dwelling in our spirits and reconnecting us to God. The second problem is that they have to uphold keeping the 10 Commandments. They mix the old covnenant teachings with the new covenant teachings, and the result is sort-of schizophrenic. You can't live under the law and also live under grace. When we are born again, we still live by the principles of the law, but the law has been fulfilled in Jesus. HE is our righteousness; we aren't required to physically keep the 10 Commandments perfectly. Instead, we embrace Jesus, and his righteousness covers us; in Him we find eternal Sabbath rest; through Him we become alive to God and able to grow spiritually and in truth. Through Jesus we begin to desire to be holy and to grow. I know this is probably sort-of complicated. The summary of it all is: Jesus is God, we're not; Jesus gives us his righteousness; God sees us as righteous when we accept Jesus; through the Holy Spirit's influence we begin to grow in Christ and increasingly resemble Him. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Welcome Pheeki great to hear from you. Yes we can related I know I can related to the alone feeling. God has helped me with that I have meet some nice people here we chat back and forth through the forum and e-mail. I am willing to talk with anyone who wants a friend. I have been out for about 6 months now and still its hard I just keep praying and I know the people on the forum are praying for me too. Praise God he is helping us all see the light of his Grace. Terryk | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Thank-you Colleen, I think I understand. I began my transition out of SDAism in August 2002 so this is very new to me. I was so unhappy. I was living as a double minded person. I married into an ultra conservative SDA family (the father is a pastor) and began living a double life. I took off my jewelry around them, never admitted I ate meat and drank and tried to behave with decorum. I was divorced and had a child and they did not accept me at first even though I "played the game of appearances" and had been SDA all of my life. What they didn't know was my husband had been playing the game for years too. Here is one of my main (among many) problems with Adventism, you can be in the church all of your life and not be saved. (I am sure they are not the only church with this problem). There is such an outward focus on behavior, people start living a lie and become double minded (not happy in either world). I think this leads to dishonesty in other aspects of your life too. If that is how you have dealt with your parents most of your life, why wouldn't you lead a double life from your spouse when you marry? Also, this results in making you a "people pleaser" instead of focusing on pleasing God and living in the freedom that is Christ's gift to us as believers. And another thing, the first husband I married was all wrong for me but I misguidedly thought I would be unequally yoked with a non-SDA, so I married a drug addicted, wife-beating, alcoholic, vegetarian! I often wonder how my life would be different if I hadn't had the shadow of SDAism covering me. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
hi TerryK. The worst time for me is Friday evening. I don't know what to do about my kids. My husband is very indoctrinated into SDA beliefs and though he doesn't keep the Sabbath like he was taught (believe it or not, I was the Sabbath enforcer before I was saved) he won't give it up. When I first started bringing home anti-SDA material he told me to keep it put away so the kids wouldn't see it and we had many fights, one in which he told me I was in danger of losing my salvation! We have come a long way in the last 4 months and he is tolerating my new beliefs (which came as a revelation from God through forums like this and Dale Ratzlaf's) I feel totally liberated! I was deeply in bondage and so desperately want my family out of it. My poor 70-year-old mother has no assurance of salvation. When I ask her if she is saved, she says "I hope so." "I hope I am good enough." She doesn't get it. She doesn't have the internet so I have been printing off things for her to read. she is open minded enought to do so but with 70+ years of indoctrination, I am not sure she can pull out of it. She isn't much of a scholar either which seems to fit into SDAism quite nicely, you don't have to do much when you have been told how to believe for so long. Which brings me back to my husband...he can talk the SDA theology but has no idea where it comes from and little knowledge of the actual Bible but boy was he taught to defend it and EGW to the death! I have seldom ever seen him open a Bible to do bible study. I guess when you have "the truth" you don't need to search for it! The Lord is changing our life slowly. I think he is coming around to some of what I am saying. It is just going to take time. How do I teach my children that we don't have to keep the 10 Commandments? That song the perfect 10 just irks me and all the kids have learned it inside and out! In my opinion it is glorifying something that doesn't deserve our worship, we should be singing about Jesus, not the Perfect 10! I have started letting them watch TV on Sabbath and it just about terrifies me! What if I am leading them down a path of no faith at all? Is the SDA faith better than none? I continue to attend the SDA church because my husband and kids are so involved in the praise team but I have to sit there and grit my teeth! I have to keep the Bible open because I don't want to be led into error, and it is so easy to spot now! Our preacher is like a motivational speaker, not a preacher. He hardley quotes EGW or the Bible and what he says often makes no sense. I have my testimony written, maybe I will post it...I know I am rambling here! | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Hi Pheeki. Welcome to the forum. I would like to make a comment about not having to ėkeep the Ten Commandments.î Perhaps it would be better to phrase that differently. When one says, ėthe Ten Commandments are abolishedî one is correct but the wording can be very misleading. A natural response of anyone who does not understand the full background and content of the Covenant, the way they were abolished, and what replaces them may jump to some very understandable conclusions. ėOK,î they might say, ėSo I can murder anyone I want, now. Right?î Hebrews 7:22 This makes Jesus the surety of a better covenant. Perhaps it would be better to say, ėThe Covenant of the Ten Commandments has been FULFILLED AND REPLACED by the better Covenant of the Gospel of Jesus.î We need to understand that what we Christians ėkeepî is our Covenant with Jesus. Jerry | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Good point, Jerry. Pheeki, keep teaching your children about Jesus. Teach them how he fulfilled the law, and keep telling them the truths you know about belonging to him and the freedom and joy you find in him. Keep the idea of a relationship with Jesus foremost. Tell them that knowing Jesus is the most important thing, and that when we know him and honor him, we enter the New Covenant, and the Holy Spirit puts God's law in our hearts. (God's law is not the 10 commandments, by the way; it's actually more like Jesus's Sermon on the Mount than the 10. God's law requires that we obey Jesus and live as his people, but we answer to Jesus, not an inanimate written document.) How old are they? They will certainly begin to wonder about the difference between your faith and that of your husband. I will be praying for you and for him. Why don't you email your testimony to formeradventst@aol.com, and we'll post in on the Stories page so it will always be available for people to read? Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Pheeki, Welcome and you are not alone. I too am the only one in my family to leave and others on this board too. I like to think we are very special for God to call us out! Just trust in him for everything and He will work it all out for good. Thank you all for your comments on pleading the blood and annointing. Lydell, I'm with you. For those that said prayer is enough, I agree, however, in Luke 17 when the disciple couldn't cast out the demon, Jesus said this kind comes out only by prayer and fasting. Leads me to believe that sometimes an outward sign is needed, a show of sincerity and act of faith. I know there is nothing in the oil....as far as Job goes, if prayer was enough for him, I want to do something more! I sure don't want to go through what Job went through!! (lol) What started this all is a man whose wife went up in church to receive "the baptism of the Holy Spirt" and since has been demonically oppressed, she is depressed, physically ill etc....they believe that an evil spirit was imparted to her and have prayed and prayed with no sucess. I don't know how I feel about that but it seems more and more people are having problems with demonic spirits and weird things and I think the devil is hard at work and since the blood is the power that overcame sin and defeated satan, makes sense to me to plead the blood. Anyways, thanks for your comments! | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Welcome Pheeki...so glad the Lord led you here. WE are all praying for you. ...are you aware of these verses? I Cor. 6:11 you are already washed, sanctified, justified Rom. 8:1 you are not condemned I Cor. 6:17 you are one with the Lord in spirit Eph. 1:3-8 you already have redemption thru His blood Col. 2:9,10 you have fulness in Christ See, the SDA's keep bringing up "perfecttion" because they still think that somehow when they get to the judgment seat of Christ there is something that they can add to Christ finished work. They can't. When the Christian stands before the judgment seat all God sees is the covering of Christ' perfect robe of righteousness. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Thanks to all for answering. I have days of elation and days of deep depression since I have been liberated. I am going to church tomorrow with my family and I really feel the Holy Spirit in the music there but as soon as the preacher takes the podium I wish I wasn't there. He comes so close to preaching straight Rightousness by faith but then has to qualify it with the Sabbath. When I have tried to speak to a select few of the church members stating I have questions on doctrine they look at me like I am from another planet. Most of them carry the Clear Word Bible and recently to my utter dismay, the Christmas pagent was entitled "Michael the Archangel." I had to grit my teeth through the whole thing and I made sure my children knew that MIchael was called one of many princes in the Bible and that he dared not rebuke Satan, therefore could not be Jesus. Jesus is not one of many nor does he fear Satan. They didn't really care either way, they just wanted to perform. However, those in the audience (mixed audience of SDA and non-Sda) were probably wondering "what the hell!?!?" and scratching their heads. In the middle of the play Michael decided to change his name to Jesus and go down to earth as a baby. But...I didn't notice anyone questioning this and probably non-SDA had no clue what they were really saying. I confronted my SDA preacher brother about the Michael heresy and asked where that came from, he said "Sister White wrote about it." Maybe he will stop and think about what I informed him the Bible says about Michael! Earlier that day, we got on the subject of ministers getting fired from the SDA church. I said what would get you fired? He said, "heresy." I asked him what he thought heresy consisted of and he said "Preaching things that are not in the Bible." I couldn't believe it. That means all SDA ministers have committed heresy if the preach EGW! I just kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to make him mad, but I wanted to tell him that. I thought the day was going to go by without him asking for a Bible study (trying to bring me back into the fold) but he asked me right after dinner. I was so terrified because I had never formally been called to defend my new beliefs with anyone except my husband and I wasn't sure I could take on an SDA minister. I went into the bedroom and laid on the bed and prayed for the Lord to help me. I am so afraid of being dragged back into bondage! After a few minutes I went out and took the NIV bible because I didn't want KJV confusing me. He started out with this convoluted chart of the Gospel he had made. (Please don't think I am speaking bad of my brother, he is very sincere and kind to me, even in my heresy, wink-wink!) I was pretty quiet for the most part, I even got a power point presentation on the meaning of each item in the tabernacle. I then started demurely asking him if he knew how the Bible talks about the Law (the ministration of death, something whose glory is faded, etc) he skipped right over it like it meant nothing but I kept pointing out texts in Galations, etc. He then started in on all the perfection stuff I spoke of before. Basically we got no where except I left it with a great feeling of peace. Not only had he not convinced me to return to bondage, the Lord had solidified what I believed! I later asked my mom to start reading Galatians every day until she understood it. When she told my brother he said "You just can't pick and choose which book to read, you have to start in the OT and read the whole Bible." Apparantly Galatians is threatening. I really apprieciate your prayers. The Devil seems to be trying to discourage me with family trials and worry. I am so glad to finally be on here! | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Pheeki I would love it if you would email me it sounds like we have some things in common. Its great to have the forum but it is hard to talk back and forth. here is my email tbawgus@hotmail.com. I to have just left the church and had to deal with telling my children and husband. Lucky for me my husband was not to steeped in the church. He went with us but did not believe in it all. I have a 12 and 7 year old and they had been raised in the truth ha,ha. My 12 year old had a lot to understand and it was hard for her. I will keep you in prayer all the things your saying I too sometimes still feel. It does get easier and it is good to surround yourself with others who are going and have gone through the same experiences people on the forum have been so helpful. I am very excited I hope you e-mail soon Again members of the forum thank you for all your help and prayers. Terryk |
