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Archive through January 25, 2003Lydell20 1-25-03  8:30 pm
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Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, January 25, 2003 - 11:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Praise God for the wonderful news about your mother!

We'll keep praying for you and your husband and your father and brother.

Colleen
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 2:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Lydell,

Message recieved and answered. God's Blessings to you all.

Peace Forever,

Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus.

P.S. when you get to your own computer at home, you have mail.
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 4:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki, Praise God for your Mother. The Lord works in marvelous and mysterious ways His wonders to perform. Keeping you in prayer for the rest of your family.

Because He is our truth, Carol
Schasc
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Username: Schasc

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A new member of the forum and am enjoying reading messages here on the site. Can anyone tell me if there are other churches that believe in soul sleep like the SDAs? I havent heard of any, but just wanted to know.
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Schasc,

Welcome to the Forum.
Just from memory - Soul sleep is a theory that goes back to before the Reformation, I think to Wycliffe (he would be 14th century). Some of the Reformers accepted it, quite possibly as a reaction against the mediaeval ideas of hell and purgatory, a lot of which are unbiblical of course.
Luther believed in soul sleep for a while, but then changed his mind. Calvin was opposed to it.

Modern churches I know of which teach it are Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadephians. They have common roots (with Adventism too). These all have highly unbiblical doctrines and all consider themselves the one true church, these being marks of a cult.

God bless,
Adrian
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 693
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schasc,
Welcome also... glad you joined in our discussions! May this site continue to be a place of healing and hope.

grace always,
cindy
Schasc
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Username: Schasc

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanx for the response Doc. Since I come from 3rd generation SDA family my whole background with life after death has been with an SDA point of view. Can you direct me to some good online sites that present the other view? I would like to study it myself and dont know where to start. Thanx for your any help you can give me
33ad
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Username: 33ad

Post Number: 43
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 5:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Schasc,
Welcome to our forum. I've also only been here just over a week. Cindy no doubt will give you some good online sites to study the true christian view of life after death, but here are some good ones I know of.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/life_after_death.htm

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/immortality_soul.htm

http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/dead.html

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/soul_sleep_error.html

May the Holy Spirit guide you while you study. He will lead you into all truth.
Peace in Jesus name
Loren
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 795
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Schasc! We're glad you're here.

There are also some evangelicals who now espouse soul sleep, but I don't think they see it the way Adventists see it. They do believe that "something" of the person's essence survives death; it just isn't conscious. Adventists actually say NOTHING survives; our breath is what returns to God. They don't believe we have actual spirits that are parts of ourselves separate from our bodies.

Colleen
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 183
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Schasc,

As I posted several months ago, try to obtain a used copy of Dr. Robert Morey's book entitled "DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE." Amazon.com may be able to get a used copy for you. The book is currently out of print; however, it is a classic on this important topic. It is a must-read type of book (315 pages; copyright 1984; Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, MN). It is well worth the bother to obtain.

Dennis J. Fischer

Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 184
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS: The following website advertises that they specialize in Dr. Morey's books: www.alibris.com

--DJF
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a good verse that I was just led to today!

"As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away." (Psalm 90:10 NASB.)

I never knew that the old gospel song "I'll Fly Away" had a Biblical basis! :-)

Jeremy
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 185
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy,

The SDA CLEAR WORD BIBLE (CWB) changed, reworded, and deleted over fifty similar passages. Obviously, the SDA apologists know exactly where the truth about death and the afterlife is recorded in Scripture. Thanks for sharing!

Dennis J. Fischer
33ad
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Username: 33ad

Post Number: 44
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dennis,
The "Clear Word" is probably the most blasphemous attemt at changing what the Bible really means. Stay away from it, whatever you do.
Loren
Melissa
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Post Number: 532
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The following is a review of the Morey book from Amazon.com. I have ordered the book and hope to see if I can make heads or tails, but I was wondering if someone could addresss some of the criticism in the review. I take it the person is probably JW just because of his challenge of the trinity, which tells me his entire view of scripture is probably skewed, but at the same time, B has made many of the same statements and I'm curious how some of you have resolved them for yourselves.

Here it is:
-------------------
Being familiar with some of Mr. Morey's arguments in regard to the Trinity, I wasn't too surprised to see errors and misunderstandings on his part in this book. While his book is much more thorough than some on this subject, Morey still misstates arguments that are contrary to his opinion. The errors start early as we find in the second sentence of the Foreword, written by Walter Martin, another apologist I am not very impressed with, a gross error apparently overlooked by both the reviewers below and Morey himself.

The Foreword reads, "King Solomon asked the question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" This statement, in the context of the book of Ecclesiastes, mirrors the cynical pessimism of the skeptical philosopher." This statement immediately clued me into how this book will attempt to deal with scriptures that flat out contradict the opinion of the book. Often we find immortalist attacking the book of Ecclesiastes and it's author because it shows that the dead are unconscious, having no knowledge nor devising any scheme while they are in sheol. (Ecc 9:10) Unfortunately for Martin and Morey, the 'cynical, pessimistic philosopher named Solomon' didn't say those words. Instead, a righteous man by the name of Job said those words at Job 14:14,15. Wrong book, wrong writer.

There are misconceptions, inaccuracies and straw men built throughout his book, but I will cover what I can in 1000 words the errors found merely in chapter 1.

Morey, apparently painfully aware of the hundreds of scriptures (literally) in the OT that show the soul is mortal and common with both man and beast, begins by trying to undermine the readers faith in what the OT says of the soul and condition of the dead.. He writes, "we cannot base our understanding of death and the afterlife solely upon passages found in the [OT]." He is arguing about the progressive character of God's revelation to man. Thus, what Moses, Solomon and others wrote about the soul, nature of man and death are incorrect. While most persons agree with the idea of progressive revelation, me included, we don't believe that newer revelation overrides older teachings. Otherwise, the older teachings would in fact be false. Jesus didn't come to destroy the older teachings and promises in God's Word, he came to make sure they would be fulfilled. Morey, rather than viewing the Bible as one united book, divides the book into the accurate [NT] and the confused and uniformed [OT], pointing to the fact that 40 different men wrote it over a long period to support his claim

Morey also argues that "annihilationists" must base their doctrine of "soul sleep" nearly entirely on the OT. Of course, this is incorrect. The NT carries this theme along at John 11 with Lazarus and also 1 Thess 4:13-17. See also 1 Cor 15 and Peter's writings. The NT, doesn't change the meaning of the OT view of death, it merely adds to it, showing that the resurrection is the true hope for mankind. And what of the OT and it's accuracy? Is Morey telling us that the angel at Daniel 12:2,13 was in ignorance due to progressive revelation?

Morey also states in regard to whether the wicked are destroyed or tormented forever, "It never seems to occur to [annihilationists] that if the biblical authors wanted to express clearly the idea of extinction...of the wicked, there were words available to them...which they could have been used. But the biblical authors did not use those words." This is a curious position to take. Morey condemns us for saying the wicked will be destroyed, not tormented and says the bible would have used words to that effect if that is what they meant. But tell us this, how many times does the word "destroy" and "destruction" appear in the scriptures verses "torment?" And you say "the biblical authors did not use those words?"

I'm quickly running out of room and I have so much more to say about Morey's book. But for now, keep this in mind. Anytime someone begins to look for ways to discredit what the Bible says in certain areas, a caution flag should immediately arise. Rather than use Morey's approach of showing what the pagans understood about man and then using that to interpret biblical terms, why not simply see how the Bible uses these terms. I suppose if Morey was alive 1000 years from now he would conclude that Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists also believed in an immortal soul because the religions around them did! He would be grossly incorrect about that as well. The best way to know what JW's believed is to read their writings. The same with the Bible. Morey should have studied more what the Bible says about the soul rather than what the pagan's thought of it.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul runs contrary to the hope of Christians. It makes null the important doctrine of the resurrection. If we simply float off to a "paradise" waiting until our bodies our resurrected and we can be re-united with them, then why did Paul say we are the most to be pitied of all men if there is no resurrection? Why did he say our faith was in vain if there was no resurrection? Is it so bad in Morey's interim "paradise" that if we cannot be re-united with our bodies in the resurrection we might as well have the attitude of "eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die?" (Read 1 Cor 15) No, Paul's hope was to be resurrected in the future. And before you start throwing out Phil 1:23, etc., do some research on them. They don't say what Morey reads into them. Christians aren't told to look forward to an interim paradise from which they can joyfully wait until they are re-united with their bodies. For Jesus and Paul, the resurrection out of the grave was the only hope for mankind. (John 5:28, 1 Thess 4:13-17, 1 Cor 15, Rev 20)
---------------

end of review. His last paragraph states that immortality of the soul runs contrary to the hope of Christians. I think his arguments for his version of "mortality of the soul" sound depressing. But sometimes I don' t know how to address some of the OT scriptures like those he mentions without trying to sound like I'm discrediting them as he accuses Morey of. Just curious how those "in the know" have resolved those things...

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