|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 9:34 am: || |
Susan 2, I would have to say it seems to be the way I see it and have thought it many times,Is there anything we can agree on.
I am going to research that born again thing, that is taking a lot of liberty with what the Bible says but I do not have it at hand right now. Thanks for giving me somthing else to check them up on since my son-in-law is so closed mouthed, he's smart enough to know better by this time, ie not to tell me such things that he knows cannot be supported by the Bible.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 9:37 am: || |
OK, I FEEL LIKE I AM BEING ASSAULTED ON ALL SIDES TODAY. THIS IS MY SDA PREACHER BROTHER'S REPLY TO SENDING HIM THE MARTIN LUTHER WEBSITE POSTED SOMEWHERE ON HERE. I AGREE WITH THE TOP PART BUT THEN THE PART ABOUT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS WRITTEN IN STONE...? READ AND COMMENT PLEASE.
In Galations 5:18 Paul makes it pretty clear that we are not under the law if we are led by the Holy Spirit. Then, lest anyone should misunderstand, he lists a lot of sins that are committed by those who are not led by the Spirit. This should not be viewed as an exhaustive list but merely a means for Paul to establish that people led by the Holy Spirit do not sin (At least while they are bing led by Him).
Next Paul lists the kind of things that Spirit filled Christians are involved in. In verse 23 he points out that there is no law against the things that the Spirit will lead us to do. In other words, we are not under the law when we are led by the Spirit because we don't break the law when we are led by the Spirit!!!
Consequently the converse is also true. If we are not led by the Spirit we will break the law and also be under the law. Which is why John 4:17 tells us that are confidence is in the life that the Holy Spirit lives in us. The law doesn't save us!!! However, it is an indicator of our relationship with Jesus.
The Son of God (The part of the Godhead that became Jesus) wrote the Ten Commandments in stone because He knew that they would never change. They represent the only part of the Bible that God didn't trust to inspirition. He personally wrote them. Now He seeks to write them in our hearts.
There is another spirit in the world that would like to see them thrown away because he knows that they are the foundation of God's government. We must choose who we will serve!!!
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:05 am: || |
Regarding this line from your uncle:
"I know you know that you cannot use any biblical reason to justify living a certain way."
If he doesn't live by the Bible, then do NOT listen to him.
When you first come out of any "cult," you will be assaulted, this is to be expected. For satan himself will try to confuse you, lie to you, destroy your faith, kill you, steal from you and ultimately destroy you. Ignore what is happening to the best of your knowing and keep reading God's Word. Keep staying in touch here.
Pray, then pray some more.
here is my email address, you are welcome to email me: email@example.com
Anytime Pheeki, email me.
Keep hanging on to your faith, NOMATTER what. Also note that in the book of Peter, we are toldd to rejoice when we are persecuted and slandered and said all kinds of evil things about us. He say to REJOICE! So perk up...for the Kingdom of God is within you!
As to the 10 commandments, here is some Scripture for your reading:
2 Corinthians 3:3-18
This is for a starters for you. This shows you exactly the 10 commandments written in stone and what happens.
Read and post your understanding into these few Scriptures for starters.
Blessings to you IN Christ!
P.S. Pray before you read the Scriptures.
Denise, your sister IN Christ
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:10 am: || |
I am answering to the post before this one. He gives such em;hases on parenting I think he is coming from a throw back of Pope Ellen. I used to pride myself in being such a good mother who always went to church with her children and did the sabbath even though at times with to kids it was quiet painful. We had the Sabbath games and church sabbath things. Oh I was just such a good person because of this. Yes I think it is important to educate our kids about God but you know what I grew up with no one doing those things for me as a kid I went to church by myself and loved Jesus then too. I guess what I am saying is God will protect our kids and we need to be loving and kind and spend time with them. Most of all show how much Jesus helps us and we call on him. I really do not know what I am rambling about but I just think we can get to prideful in being such a good parent because we do the things man has said we need to do. Christ sought me out as a child and I followed even then. My mother had 5 children did not raise any has little or no contact with them God always provided someone to love me even if at times it was only him. He just sounds like a SDA who has been agnry and left the church and not their teachings. And has no understanding of what you have accomplished in your christian walk just keep doing what your doing. God is the most important. Forget the others shake the dust off and go. Terryk
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:23 am: || |
Good to see you again! Good sound post to Pheeki that you put up there. Thank you. I think and infact, believe with all my heart that we all need to help her out during this time of seeming chaos.
Can everyone or will anyone else post to Pheeki and help out our sister? I'm hoping so, for I'm in need to go to bed (been up all night as is my custom) for some sleep.
Blessings to you Terry!
your sister in Christ Jesus.
P.S. really hoping others will join this thread to help someone who is having difficulty.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:27 am: || |
Thanks to both of you! I had to sit a while but then I wrote him back. Here is what I wrote.
I can't remember what I wrote exactly because that was last week but if I gave you the impression that I am unsure of what I believe, that was not what I wanted to convey. My struggle is to reconcile what I believe with the situation God has placed me in. I now see what my sister in law and her husband have gone through. She is a believer and he is not. With that example in mind, I have been very careful to not upset my children by fighting with my husband. I have found it better not to speak of it in front of them and only bring it up with him if he asks me a particular question. I have strong feelings about the school and church my children attend but the alternative is pulling them out and making them start over in a new school and I think that would really upset them. I DO NOT agree with most of the SDA teachings and I am finding more and more like minded people...some even attending the church I attend. People are searching and questioning what they have been born into, and the doctrine they have been fed all of their lives. It upsets someone terribly to find out that "the absolute truth" they thought they knew (I was quite sure I had all the answers)was not the absolute truth at all. This is how I felt. I know you don't care about particular SDA doctrine and what I have found out about it, so I won't go into it...(jewelry isn't a sin, meat eating isn't a sin, drinking in moderation is not a sin...etc.) but I want to assure you I will keep the peace in my home by whatever means possible but I won't renounce what I have learned in the last few months. My policy is not to argue (though I have recently been engaged in a heated theological argument with my SDA pastor brother) anymore. It is not productive and it is not a fruit of the Spirit.
I CLOSED BY TALKING ABOUT EVERYDAY THING IN OUR LIVES AND TOLD HIM I LOVED HIM.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:37 am: || |
First things first....Calm down. Don't be so unsettled just yet for you will see God's Truth with you own eyes!
So relax and read, taking your time and even reading more than once. Mark or underline the Scriptures. Write them on paper too, for your further referrence.
A little more reading for you. Please read the above Scriptures and these. Take your time in reading them and infact read the surrounding Scriptures to help you to see the entire context.
Here are a few more for your consideration:
Truly hope that you will read all Scriptures listed so far, with the surrounding Scriptures for context. The only way you will be able to KNOW for yourself, is to read yourself GOD'S WORD.
Peace and Blessings in Christ our Saviour.
Denise Gilmore, your sister in Jesus Christ.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:59 am: || |
Neglected to mention that I'm going to bed now Pheeki so probably won't be back online until later this evening or tomorrow afternoon late. If you email me, please understand that I check my emails late night.
Peace to you this day for God is your strength!
Denise, your friend and sister in our Lord God, Jesus the Christ.
P.S. and here I thought nobody read those links I put up...little did I know!
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 11:22 am: || |
Thanks Denise, I am calming down. I went to lunch. I reread Galatians (the book of the Bible that freed me from SDAism) and was very comforted. I just don't understand why SDA's don't get the same message when they read it too. I states it as plain as day. I do remember when I was an SDA it made no sense to me (prior to the blinders being removed). Thanks for all the encouragement to everyone! My brother replied to me again and I don't know if I have the strength to answer him yet!
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 1:46 pm: || |
Dear Pheeki, By the way, how is the name Pheeki pronounced? I, too read the book of Galatins earlier this week. Go to the links on this website and go to Janet Brown's website and you can get to the entire Bible, even in many different translations. I wish she had the New Jeresulem Translation on there, as that is one of my favorites but she dosen't so maybe I can find it somewhere else on the web. If any of you know how to get the New Jeresulem Translation on the web please post the www address here. Thanks. Anyway, Pheeki, it'll turn out o.k. Your brother is a SDA pastor, right there we can figure he's pretty much spun. His job is to study the Bible so he can give interesting sermons on Saturday mornings. So, I will pray that during these studies the H.S. will lead him to the passages of enlightenment. In the meantime my concern is mostly for your relationhip with your husban You don't have to live with your brother or your dad but you do have to live with your husband so I hope you first focus on that relationship before the others.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 2:20 pm: || |
Pheeki, praise God for your thoughtful, kind, and unwavering answer to your father! God helped you write that.
I admire you for not arguing, especially in front of your kids. I've been praying for you and your husband, and I will begin asking God to make it clear to you if, when, and where, and what you might do about school for your kids and also a place where you and they can worship besides/(in addition, for now?) the SDA church. I believe you mentioned you have a 13-yr-old daughter. My sons were 11 and 15 when we pulled them out of an SDA school and put them in a non-denominational Christian school. Of course, my husband and I agreed on the matter, but it made a huge difference in their lives.
God does have a sovereign plan, and he will show you his will as time unfolds.
I've just been reading an unfinished manuscript by Dale Ratzlaff which he is writing to tell his story of journeying through and out of Adventism. One recurring theme, which your posts above underscore, Pheeki, is that with each moment of decision when he was faced with truth or facts he had previously not known, he embraced the truth even when he was pressured to say whatever he needed to say to keep his employer (Central Calif. Conference) and his parishoners happy.
Partly because this MS is fresh in my mind (I pulled myself out of it to check the forumˇour school has a day off today!) your relatives' reactions seem so predicatable, sad, and deceived. They really do need the truth, and your decision not to argue is one of the best witnesses for the truth you can give them. Meanwhile, we'll pray for you and for them.
BTW, in reference to an earlier post about being born again, Adventists really do not have a theology of being born again. Some do have an interesting explanation for it, although I don't believe it's official. They say that baptism is when you're born again: you die in baptism and are raised to new life as you come out of the water. Mostly it's symbolic.
The big problem with the whole idea of worshiping in spirit and in truth as an Adventist is that Adventists do not believe that humans have a spirit that knows God. That heresy also keeps them from understanding what it means to be born again.
The words are there, but the reality is completely off the radar screen.
Praying for you, Pheeki!
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 8:36 pm: || |
Pheeki: Your brother says (the part of the Godhead that became Jesus) wrote the Ten Commandments. You should have him read Exudus 31:18 "And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, Written with the finger of God. Then Luke 11:20 says that Jesus cast out demons with the finger of God. The same account in Matthew 12:28 says Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. So if the finger of God is the Holy Spirit. Take a look at II Cor. 3:3 "clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 8:58 pm: || |
I recently took a four week class on understanding the Mormon religion. It was given by a retired Lutheran pastor and his wife who lived and worked in Salt Lake City for nearly 30 years. The main thing these dear people wanted to get across to us in the class was that even though the Mormon religion uses the same words and the same termology that mainstream Christianity uses, these words and terms have a completely different meaning to a Mormon than they do to a Christian. Well, I was just about blown out of my seat because it is the same situtation with Adventism. And, having numerous JW in-laws, I feel comfortable in declairing that the same holds true with the JW's, too. The words and the terms are the same but the meaning is totally different. And, that is the #1 reason it is so hard for me to have a conversation with either SDA's, JW's or folks who are LDS.
|Posted on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 10:31 pm: || |
You're absolutely right, Susan.
And that argument your brother uses, Pheeki, about the 10 being written in stone and therefore permanent...Read 2 Corinthians 3, as James Jean suggested above. In verse 7 Paul refers to "the ministry that brought death" being engraved on stone. If it was glorious, he continues, how much MORE GLORIOUS is the ministry of the Spirit?
"For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory." (v. 10) And in verse 11 he states that the ministry of stone is fading away, and the ministry which lasts has much greater glory.
One paradoxical truth which dawned on our Friday night group as we studied these passages is that in the bigger, spiritual reality, material thingsˇpermanent things like stone, in factˇare temporary, and the things of the Spirit, which we can't see now, are the REAL things that last. Stone disappears; Spirit is eternal.
|Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 5:14 am: || |
On Faith and Coming to Christ by Martin Luther:
|Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 5:25 am: || |
Hello again Pheeki,
You stated in part:
"I just don't understand why SDA's don't get the same message when they read it too. I states it as plain as day. I do remember when I was an SDA it made no sense to me (prior to the blinders being removed)."
Thus you have answered your own question. The Blinders that you mention are why they cannot see it YET. I say YET, for let us continue praying for them.
Here: 2 Corinthians 3:14-18
Of course, I encourage you to read the entire chapter to better your understanding as to the context.
|Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 8:53 am: || |
Pheeki your post about your father-in-law on 1-21-03 he stated don't let religion or any quise come between you and your family and I would say yes to that(religion), but not if it is Jesus Christ because the Bible addresses this in Mattew 10:35 says I will come to set at variance father against son and Mother against daughter etc. but it says I not the Sabbath.
|Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 9:12 am: || |
I replied to my brother's email with a bunch of scripture on the law. I ended with the text saying (paraphrased) "why put a yoke on them that we couldn't bear." and then Jesus's own words about taking his yoke...this is what he wrote back!
His yoke is easy because He bears it for us; not because it was changed. He not only bears it for us in Judgement, He bears it in us now. That is why we need the second birth. So that His Spirit lives in us.
The book of Revelation is called Revelation because it is a revelation of Jesus. Chapter fourteen (The third part of the first angels message) tells us that we are to worship Him as Creator. It's the last message He has for planet earth before it is destroyed.
The texts that you send clearly teach that the law doesn't save. You haven"t heard me say that it does. The old and new testaments both refer to it as the law of love. If you love your neighbor you certainly won't kill him. If you love God you will want to worship Him in the manner He designates.
Keeping every day the same (Even in worship of Him) is choosing to worship as you please. That was Cain's mistake. He says six days are for work, only one is for rest. It is true enough that we worship and fellowship with Him on an ongoing basis. It is not true that we can keep a day holy that He never made holy.
What do you all think? that bit about Cain gave me pause but I realized that it was Cain's hard heart (like the Isrealites) that displeased God so much. Do you think that is so? Then I also remembered all the texts I had looked up on the Law and how it plainly says that Christ is the end of it. The Law served (still serves) it's purpose if we have not come to Christ, it shows us our sin and points us to the redeemer. Once we are saved we are sons and daughters, no longer slaves and no longer under the Law. The question is...if the Law was just for Isreal(or was the Sabbath just for Isreal?)how come it now applies to everyone (who isn't saved). Paul talks about those outside the Law (Gentiles) how does all of this fit together?
|Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 10:40 am: || |
Your father-in-law nd my mother say the exact same things. It is very frustrating. But, even when I weas a kid I would read all those passages in the n.t. that tell us what we are not to do as well as the passages that tell us what we are to do and none of them mention the Sabbath either way, to observe it or not to observe it. You know, the passages that say not to commit adultry, not to slander, not to spread rumors, etc., and on the other side is the to-dos, there is love your neighbor as yourself, if he asks for your coat then offer your shirt, too, he who has not sinned to cast the first stone, etc. As a kid I would ask my parents and my SAD teachers how come if Sabbath is so important then why isn't it mentioned in in those passages as well as in the parables. I always got the same answer from whatever Adentist I would ask. The answer was that God didn't need to bother putting much about the Sabbath in the n.t. because it is a GIVEN, it is UNDERSTOOD without further comment that it must be observed fully, no questions need to be further asked on this subject as everyone who can read will realize that.Someday I hope to get up the nerve to ask a SDA where does this leave the Christian who only has access to the n.t. What do you think the answer I will get will be?
|Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 12:10 pm: || |
My question is...if the Law was only for Isreal, as it says it is in the OT, did we become spiritual Isreal when we accepted Christ? Is that where they get that?
At the same time, if the NT says the Law is gone, it's gone. Then the SDA will counter with, well, does that mean I can murder then? That is ridiculous! If Christ is our example, would he murder? NO! It all seems so small minded. It's all about wanting to DO SOMETHING to earn salvation. I think they cannot let go! I did get my SDA brother preacher to admit keeping the Sabbath didn't save you but he said it was a good indication of how good your "walk" was with the savior. Again, an outward show of "doing" something to be saved. (So they can boast?)