Former Adventist Fellowship Forum: Archive through May 20, 2003

Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 4:01 pm:

Sabra and Susan, It grieves my soul too that the SDAs teach such garbage, and the other cults do the very same thing, just like I mentioned in the book "Jesus, The Greatest Man Ever Known", the J.W.s teach that Jesus didn't have a clue of his divinity until the heavens were opened and the dove lit on him to "remind" him who he was, and this certainly sounds contradictory in light of the fact that he was in the temple "teaching" the elders with "great authority" at the age of thirteen and even rebuked his mother when she panicked in her search for him and asked "didn't you know that I would be about my Father's business?"

Both your posts were good food for thought and also, did you know that they're over 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that tell of Christ's coming, beginning even with the first book of the Bible? Here it is in Genesis 3:15-And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Also, John 1 begins: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2-The same was in the beginning with God. 3-All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. I can only conclude in these verses that since the triune Godhead was active in creation and even spoke "let US make man in OUR image" that we can rest assured that everything has been taken care of from the very start.

I just had this thought come to me too. If ALL scripture is "inspired" or God-breathed, all we have to do is look at the crucifixion found in Psalms 22 and know for a fact that Jesus was aware from the beginning of his destiny. Beginning in verse 11-Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help.
12-Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round. 13-They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion. 14-I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15-My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16-For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17-I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me. 18-They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19-But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20-Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

I believe one reason that many think and teach this heresy about Jesus was because Jesus was immediately led into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan after his baptism, but I don't believe that this justifies anyone saying that Jesus wasn't divine from birth.

In case some haven't read my post on the temptations of Jesus, let me recap these thoughts. Had Jesus yielded to his flesh and given in to Satan, he would not have been a lamb "without" blemish. Jesus was tempted as we are but yet without sin. Just as the devil tempted Jesus while he was weak, hungry, and all alone, he still uses the same tactics today on all God's children. (There is safety in numbers, so, don't remain alone without a church family, and don't stay hungry, feed on the word daily, let Jesus be your daily bread, and lastly, don't tempt God by being foolish!)

I will end this post with these thoughts: It was, is, and always will be mankind's free will that is the determining factor in any given situation, but since God was, is, and always will be, isn't it great that he sent us his grace and the Holy Comforter that helps us get all this mess straightened out that the devil has managed to twist and helps us to then bear one another's burdens while we work TOGETHER to make sense of it all, it is all about GRACE and HIS grace is sufficient even when we seem to always fall short of everyone's expectations of us, amen?

Janice

Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 4:45 pm:

Thinking of sending that article to my mom with the following, let me know if you all think it is a bad idea:

Jesus said: "The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again." Luke 24:7

"Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again." John 10:17

"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:18

"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Mat 26:64

"Behold we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered to the cheif priests and to the scribes, and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles and they will mock Him and scourge Him and spit on Him and kill Him, and the third day He will rise again." Mark 10:34

Shortly before the cross Jesus said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." John 12:31

He knew He would defeat Satan in the Garden of Eden when He said "I will put emnity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel. Gen. 3:15

He came to set the captives free Luke 4:18 and this was prophesied in Isaiah 61:1,2

He also told the theif He would see him in Paradise, didn't say 'If I make it.'

So, according to these verses Jesus knew His fate. Of course He did because He knew the scriptures and the scriptures pointed to the cross. He knew and said to many that He was the Son of God, He knew what was going on, agreed? After all, He knew it before the foundation of the earth!
We have a SERIOUS problem here. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:1" Jesus was God, do we understand that much? He was born, conceived of the Holy Spirit and human flesh. He understood at age 12 that he was God's son as He said to Mary, "Why is it that you sought Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business? Luke 2:49 This was not a secret, folks, this was the battle of good and evil and evil can never prevail against good, God knew the devil wouldn't win, there was no question. This can be seen in the prophesies of the Old Testament, as well as the nature of God. He can't fail.

This interpretation obviously did not come from the Bible, so where would one get such an idea contrary to scripture?

Quote: "The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father�s acceptance of the sacrifice" (Desire of Ages p. 753). End Quote

Well, there's your problem.

Not only could He see through the portals of the tomb, according to Colossians 2:15 He came to make a public spectacle of the principalities and powers. In context Col. 2:6-15 shows that Christ disarmed Satan, displayed Satan for who he is and defeated him. There was a mighty war in the spiritual realm that day and He set the captives free. "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were diobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

Probably wont do any good, whatayallthink?

Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 4:51 pm:

Sabra, really good points. I don't know how it would affect your mom, but you might pray that God will help you know the right time to present it to her. She'd have to have some openness inside her to discovering the Bible--does she?

But in the meantime, really good points!!

Colleen

Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 6:54 pm:

Janice, the above post is the best one I've read by you, good food for thought, thanks. Sabra, in my community at the local SDA church anyone can get free Signs magazines from the magazine dispensor in front of the church so if you can get a free one there then get it that way. Or e-mail me your mailing address and I'll swing by the church and get one and send it on to you. Actually the local SDA church has that magazine rack out front because they run a daycare center there during the week for around 60 preschool aged children and only several of the kids are from SDA families so the church put their Signs dispensor out as a wittenessing lure. Colleen, I really like the new look on this website. Good job.

Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 4:37 pm:

Sabra, I think you should definitely send the article. Speaking of your mom, I showed my mom the same scripture about Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison to try and prove that Jesus did not speak to unconscious "soul-sleepers" and my mother merely gave me a really confused look and told me that her preacher had straightened her out on that verse but for some reason she could not quiet remember what he explained well enough to pass it on to me. My sister, on the other hand, says that to suggest that Jesus "preached" would be suggesting that dead souls had a second chance, (preaching is just talking about God anyway, so, I don't think that this verse means that he went and gave the wicked dead an altar call to repentance, amen?)

I guess it is at these times that I call their salvation into question because Jesus taught that we MUST be born again and when we are born again, it means that we are "quickened/made alive" by the Holy Ghost and when he indwells us, he leads us into discernment of spirits and gives us all wisdom as we ask for that wisdom. I guess that is where the saying 'there is none so blind as he who will not see' got started.

Before anyone thinks that I am saying that you are not saved if you don't know EVERY little thing, that is not what I am saying here, but I am thinking of what God tells us about the NATURAL/unsaved, dead, carnal man as being one that cannot understand those things that pertain to God and his ways because they are spiritually discerned. I read someone's post that said something too about wrestling and went to the blueletterbible.org to cut and paste it here:

2Pe 3:14-Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16-As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (This verse states that UNLEARNED & UNSTABLE people have a hard time with many scriptures, and it also says that they FIGHT with the word of God to their own DESTRUCTION, also notice that this verse is speaking primarily about the Pauline epistles from which we get comfort as we read all about grace.) 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.(WE NEED TO BE STEDFAST, and note that those who teach errors are called WICKED!!!) It is like Brad noted in one of his posts, God isn't above name-calling in his work nor was Jesus above it when he referred to the "religious sects" as white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones. I bet Brad could really do a good post on the symbolism of that statement too.

2Pe 3:18 admonishes: But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen. (How much plainer can you get than that? Grow in GRACE and knowledge of CHRIST and give HIM the glory, AMEN?)

Colleen, I know that you talked to me before about this matter with my mother and sister as to whether they or saved or not, and you are right, only God knows for sure. I just hope that everyone knows though that I have an urgency for them that won't go away. Everytime I see the news and the prophecies being fulfilled, it makes me pray for all my lost loved ones all the more. I do thank all of you for your prayers and I thank God for your patience and understanding and kind words of encouragement as well.

I have started my home page for my web site but couldn't get our picture to edit onto it yet, so, I am at a stand still until I get the old text books out again and go over this stuff. I have decided to make it a devotional and Bible study of sorts and will be centered around GRACE because, after all, that truly is what it is all about, amen?

Janice

Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 6:34 pm:

Janice, I agree with you that those who are not born again do not understand scripture. I don't mean to imply that non-born-again people will gain nothing from reading the Bible, because I think many will. If they have a desire for truth, they will respond to the truths in the Bible as the Holy Spirit makes them clear.

On the whole, however, the Bible is pretty dull to people who are not quickened by the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, I believe that people who have accepted Jesus can also be in situations where they are closed to the Bible; they may be under conviction for something they don't want to face or caught up in the busyness of their lives. The Holy Spirit, however, will work with them to bring them back to openness to Him and the Scriptures.

Colleen

Another_Carol (Another_Carol)

Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 7:08 pm:

Janice.
I understand that urgency totally. What I do believe or possibly God has led me to believe is that if we have presented someone with the truth then it will in fact some day kick in and it could be just as they walk thru the gate. My only problem is I want it now so that my daughter and grandsons and son-in-law can live in some kind of peace on this earth. There is no need for a person to live in bondage from the law.

God gave His son so that we could have life and have it abundantly. For me that is we do not have to worry about getting all the i's dotted and the t's crossed because it's already been done just sit back and bask in it and enjoy the ride and of course give thanks abundant to our Lord and Saviour who did this wonderful thing for us.

Like I might have said here before, I didn't have children so that I could order them around and make them do all the things I want them to do. It would be nice though. I had them to have fellowship with them. If that is what I had my children for how much more do you think God wants the same?

Praise God I am a child of God not because of what I did but because of what He did. That's what the word of God says and I believe it.

Romans 8
15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[1] And by him we cry, "Abba,[2] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

I pray someone today might see this simple parallel and let all the angels rejoice, Carol

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 9:08 am:

Janice,

and anyone...regarding Jesus preaching to the souls in prison.

I understand that since there was no law before the flood and there was no cross either that these souls really didn't have a chance either way to be saved and that He did go and preach to them. I'm open to any other interpretation of the verse.

My SDA cousin, who is very open minded, believes that the fallen angels corrupted the humans, all except Noah's family, (which I also believe) and that Jesus may have been preaching to the fallen angels, giving them a second chance. Something about that doesn't sit well with me. Aren't they still bound by the Euphrates river somewhere?

Any thoughts?

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:30 pm:

I believe that people are not given second chances after death. In Romans 1:18-20 Paul says that from creation God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature��have been evident through what has been created so that all men are without excuse. He also says that because of the wickedness of their hearts they suppressed this revelation.

Even before the cross people were saved by faith in God and his promises. Those that did not know them explicitly still had evidence that could lead them to believe in a sovereign, transcendent God who made everything they could see.

My thoughts about Jesus preaching to the lost souls is that he may have gone to Hades (or wherever they are) and proclaimed victory. The cross marked victory over the power of sin in the universe. The study notes in the NIV Study Bible list the three main interpretations of this text, and I have to acknowledge those notes as helping me think about this text.

Another way the text is sometimes read is that Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, went in the days of Noah and preached to those who were bound by sin.

In general, though, I lean toward the idea that Jesus may have gone and proclaimed victory to the fallen angels and maybe even to the spirits of the wicked dead.

It is a vague text at best, but clearly SOMETHING happened!

Colleen

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 4:10 pm:

Colleen,

I believe that you are right in your idea that Jesus went and proclaimed the victory that he had over death and the grave, and I also agree that there are no second chances after death seeing as how the Bible tells us that "man is given once to live and after that the judgment".

I believe that Jesus spoke to the wicked dead who didn't believe the Old Testament prophets, to the fallen angels that are reserved unto judgment, and also to those who died believing in the soon coming Messiah. He was simply making it known to ALL that he was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

I can almost imagine him going to the grave and showing his nail-scarred hands to those who died believing in all the promises of the Messiah found in the Old Testament and saying to them all "I AM", and I can't even begin to imagine how those evil angels must have felt when they again laid eyes on the precious son of God whom they had fought against in the heavenlies, and as for those that were destroyed in the flood, well, that is a very deep study within itself and begins in chapter six of Genesis where the sons of God (fallen angels) took on human form and impregnated human women and their off-spring were so wicked that God decided to send the flood to destroy them all. Guess I need to get back to my main train of thought here.

When we consider that ALL went to the same place upon death with only a great gulf fixed between that couldn't be crossed, which is Old Testament teaching even though it is truth, then it makes sense when you consider ALL the scriptures concerning that great event when Jesus bore our sins on the cross and died in our place, and now we can say 1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? .

It is almost like putting together a great jig-saw puzzle, isn't it? I think that is what God means when he tells us to study, it is to show ourselves "approved of" and when God is happy with us as we seek truth, he gives us peace and blessed fellowship with one another. Our studies are not done to be "accepted", seeing as how we are already accepted by God when the atoning blood was applied and that was done when Christ became our high priest and ascended with his blood that made a one-time-only event come to pass that did away with all other sacrifices. Animal blood only hid the sin but the blood of Christ washes our sins away.

The reason why Jesus told Mary not to touch him when she first saw him was because he would have then been considered ceremonially unclean, Jesus and the Father had it all planned out and this was in strict keeping of the Jewish ceremonial law when it came to the blood sacrifice, as our high priest, Jesus entered into the heavenly holy of holies and after the blood was applied, he then showed himself to his disciples in the upper room when he appeared in their midst, and this proves that he had received his resurrected body since he was able to appear in their midst and also when he traveled with the two disciples that were not able to recognize him until he broke bread with them and as he did, he disappeared.

At the risk of sounding offensive, I think it is just plain dumb to imagine that Jesus sat down at his Father's right hand and then waited for 1800 years before getting up and taking his blood to the holy of holies which EGW refers to as the "investigative judgment" and if that sounds hard then so be it. We are "commanded" by God Almighty to study and guaranteed a discerning spirit that will lead us into wisdom and insight if we ask him. Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ASK of God, that giveth to ALL [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it SHALL be given him.

Jesus led those spirits in prison to freedom and listen to what these two verses say:

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept (meaning dead not unconscious).
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I want to be like Brad here and see this verse with spiritual eyes and hope that all of you can understand what I am saying here, I believe the part that says "they that are Christ's at his coming" is not referring to Christ's second coming but actually is referring to his "coming" to them there in the grave.) What are some of your opinions on my thinking of it this way? Is it too wierd? I hope you all don't think I have lost it, amen.

Anyway, with those two verses, we can clearly see that everything shifted at this vital point in history. All went to basically the same destination in the grave up until Christ and then he led those that died awaiting the Messiah to paradise "that day" and those are the very same ones that the Bible mentions here: 1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ WITH ALL HIS SAINTS. (These saints will return with Jesus and be rejoined to their eternal resurrected bodies, and I will save that subject for the thread about the rapture later.)

Now notice this verse: Eph 4:8-Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. This again plainly shows the difference that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus made that day.

Jesus had previously explained to his disciples that he was going away from them which proves that he did have the plan beforehand and also told them that he would send the comforter, but also, we can see into the part of the verse that states "he led captivity captive" and know that these were those spirits (in prison/held captive in the grave.)

I am having trouble trying to get my train of thought thrown out on paper without going round the world with it, but bear with me for a little while longer, please.

One of the main arguments that my SDA sister has with me concerning "after-life" teachings is this: SDAs teach that when the Bible was translated, the comma was misplaced in the chapter where Jesus is speaking to the thief on the cross. Luke 23:43 says: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. I am not an English major but just take a look, and do what EGW tells you to do here, take the comma that is placed after "thee" and move it over past "today" and then reread it. I don't know how this looks to anybody else but it looks to me like it would then need a question mark at the end and would be asking "Shalt thou be?" Well, I guess that is enough thinking for one post, huh?

Goodbye for now, and I am looking forward to your comments.

God bless,

Janice

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 5:26 pm:

Guess that post will have to wait another night seeing as how I sent it to cyberspace with the click of a button again.

I was doing my little cut and paste bit with the blueletterbible.org again and closed the Internet out and then had to log back in to the forum and the post is forever gone, but if God meant for it to be here, he will get the job done, so, I will rest in that.

I was just going to add this thought for everyone who is grieving with the conditions brought about by having SDA family members still caught up in their mass web of confusion and lies. My sister did not take to lightly to this verse of scripture that I sent to her years ago when I was trying to lead her into the light; I can only guess that it stepped on her toes too much, she didn't like it when I reminded her that we were given this Bible to exhort, correct, instruct, reprove, rebuke, etc. with either.

Listen to what we are guaranteed by God in his word, and then just turn it over to God, this is what he promises if we warn our loved ones about silly religious nuts who command foolishness like not getting married and NOT eating meat and also those that shall DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES OF DEVILS. (I am just wondering here, if "doctrines of devils" would be the same thing as when I use the term "demonic" and is this considered "name-calling" and if it is, do any of you think that we shouldn't speak out against it?)

I believe that if the Bible plainly says this: If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained; why doesn't this verse of scripture silence those who may be thinking that I am being evil and even think of me as being uncivilized?

This verse speaks volumes to us, but only if we let it minister to our hearts and pray that Satan be bound in order for us to receive this great truth:
1. We are being GOOD ministers IF we remind our loved ones of what Jesus did.
2. He says that IF we are doing this, it is because we have been NOURISHED by feeding on the word.
3. The words that we have been nourished with are words of FAITH and GOOD DOCTRINE.
4. (FEED ON THIS ONE AND SAVOUR IT FOLKS: This verse really blessed my soul when I noticed that it said "Thou hast ATTAINED!!!!

I will be thinking on that verse, and I know that I will receive my reward from God one day even though it might take years to see what miracles have been worked out through our faithful prayers for one another here.

Praise God, for he only knows who visits our site and gets some light shed on their dark souls, amen.

Good night for now,

Janice

Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 8:57 pm:

Well I sent it to my mom and she sent a note back saying she didn't have time to read all of the stuff I sent today.....

Sigh, I think that is it folks, from now on mum is the word on religion, hard to do since that is my main thing ya know?

I'm copy/pasting what I wrote previously about the 1 Peter verse:

Colossians 2:15 He came to make a public spectacle of the principalities and powers. In context Col. 2:6-15 shows that Christ disarmed Satan, displayed Satan for who he is and defeated him. There was a mighty war in the spiritual realm that day and He set the captives free. "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were diobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

I looked up the word preach in the original Greek and it means to preach, to proclaim, to tell, so it looks like in fact Jesus did just as Colossians says and proclaimed His victory to the evil spirits.
What is all of that about the longsuffering of God waiting in the days of Noah about?

hmmmmm

Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 7:43 pm:

Sabra, Was it The Signs article that you sent your mom? Now I have another true story to share with you all out there in cyberland. We have a man in our community named Jerry. He seems somewhat developmentally disabled. He is very nice. He rides his bicycle around town and is very friendly with most everyone who will give him the time of day (if you know what I mean, be friendly to him). Awhile back I couldn't sleep one night so I went to Denny's for some middle of the night hot cocoa. There was Jerry also having his hot cocoa fix. So I sat next to him at the counter and we got to visiting. I immagine him to be in his early 60's although I really haven't a clue to his real age. He asked me if I am a Christian and then he wanted to know where I attended services. Then he told me for three years he went every Saturday up here to the local SDA church, he never missed even one week even in the rain he went on his bicycle. He always used the word "went" in a past tense way so I asked him if she still ever attends there and he went on to tell me he dosen't and then he told me how come he dosen't. Apparently after attending every week for three years he was really thinking of himself as a Seventh-day Adventist and he was really thinking of himself as a part of the congregation. So, he asked the minister to baptize him and make him a real Seventh-day Adventist. The minister wouldn't do it because Jerry smoked. Jerry told me he had told the SDA minister that yes, he smoked and yes, he knew smoking was bad but he wanted to give his life to Jesus and then ask Jesus to take away his desire to smoke. The SDA minister told Jerry he had it backwards, that first Jerry must stop smoking and then he could get bapitized and become a SDA. Jerry told me he knew he's not too smart on some things but he knew that the minister had it backwards and Jerry left the Adventist church that day and never has gone back. He went home and felt sorry for himself for a few hours. Then he decided he'd felt sorry for himself long enough and that he should go find a different church. So the next morning (Sunday) he rode his bicycle to a small Penticostle church not far from his house. He opened his heart up to the congregation and was loveingly embrassed an was bapitized right then, that very day. The people laid hands on him and prayed over him that God would take away his desire to smoke. Within three weeks he had completely stopped smoking and has not since had a desire to smoke. Praise the Lord! Now, I want to ask you, just who is the more smarter one here, Jerry who the entire community knows as being "off" or the SDA pastor who refused Jesus to Jerry through bapitism? BTW, numerous relatives of mine were at a family gathering and I shared this story. Two stalwart SDA kin of mine backed up the Adventist miniter 100%. One even said that smokers are just the riff-raff of society and God's organzation should not lower themselves to letting people officially join who smoke because it would gravely compromise the churches authority, blah, blah, blah. My Seventh-day Baptist cousin let everyone know that SDB's are above that sort of behavior and that Jerry was right, we first give our lives to Jesus and then the power of The Holy Spirit works in us and that he was happy Jerry found a church that followed Jesus. Finilly my diehard SDA cousin said that she's sure Jerry ment well and since Jerry is so developmentally disabled God will probably have compassion on him and when he gets to heaven he will realize the SDA pastor was right after all. Us non-SDA's just left the room shaking our heads.

Angie (Angie)

Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 11:23 am:

That is really sad,but the sda's I fellowshiped with,felt the same way!When Jerry & I got married in the sda church,we decided that we would also get baptised after the service.About a month before,we had all these 'private studies' with the 2 elders of the church[home church]This was to prepare for baptism.The day before the weddding,they sprung all these vows that we were to repeat and more or less promise to keep before everyone there.They were really abserd to me!the one about not wearing make-up,drinking coffee or any other caffine products,done it for me!I had quit all of that stuff,but to get up there and say that I would never do it again,was just wrong to me.Needless to say,I was never baptised into the church,Jerry was.Praise the Lord,I could at least see that it was wrong. REALLY,REALLY SAD!!Angie

Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 12:13 pm:

Well good for Jerry! God worked it all out for good. See, if he hadn't been smoking in the first place he would have joined the church and would probably still be there with the rest of the dead heads, so what they devil meant for his harm actually saved his life!

Hallelujia!

Susan, it was the Signs article but evidently she didn't read it. She loves her life and her church and she doesn't want to know anything that will disturb that. What can I say?

Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 2:31 pm:

Ever natice how many men have the name Jerry? BTW, the local SDA minister is called Pastor Jerry.

Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 10:18 pm:

Susan, your story about develpmentally disabled Jerry being baptized into Christ and then finding freedom from smoking instead of the other way around, as the Adventist minister said it should be, reminded me of how Jesus so often told people he healed, "Your faith has made you whole."

In spite of his limitations, Jerry understood that loving Jesus and accepting him came first, and then Jesus would help him get rid of his bad habits. God honored that man's faith! And that kind of saving faith is only a gift from our Father.

Isn't Jesus wonderful?! Our younger son gave us the 2 CD collection entitled iWorship for Christmas, and just minutes ago I heard track 8 on CD #2, "We'll All Bow Down". That song makes me cry: "And we'll all bow down/Kings will surrender their crowns/And worship Jesus/He is the love, the unfailing love/He is the love of God."

Isn't that a really moving way to identify Jesus? He is the love of God.

Colleen

Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 6:08 am:

My favorite praise and worship song:

We fall down, we lay our crowns at the feet of Jesus

The fullness of His mercy and love at the feet of Jesus

And we cry Holy Holy Holy

We cry Holy Holy Holy

We cry Holy Holy Holy

Is the Lamb

Our church is so big that when the whole church sings it is amazing and especially this song, it's so powerful, sometimes we just keep singing it in acapello.

Gotta go to church! Bye!