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Lynn W
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adventists make a big deal about Christ being Michael the Archangel. Some say it doesn't matter.
WDYT? Is He Michael? Does it matter? What verses can you use to prove He is or isn't?
Maryann
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn,

I always thought that the Jesus/Michael issue was not important till recently. You know, one of those things that you could agree or disagree with that didnít matter. I ran across a study on it and I will sorta steal some ideas from the study. This is the best Iíve run across, as for the most part, the Bible seems to be a bit vague on the subject.

Let me first mention what an SDA friend told me was his interpretation of Michael/Jesus. He said that in the same way that Jesus took on humanity to save us, Jesus ěcouldî have taken on an angelic form in another time and era to save an angelic race! He was very clear that, that was just his opinion, but still, that is taking quite a liberty with an opinion.

I would like to know what part of the country you are from. Would you e-mail me at GoGold@Quixnet.Net)

The Bible is filled with a long list of actual angels such as Michael, the Archangel, Gabriel, the angel over Israel, the angel of death, Guardian angels etc.

The first part of Hebrews 1 demonstrates that Jesus is superior to Godís human messengers, the prophets. Verses 4-14 show that Jesus is superior to Godís spiritual messengers, the angels.

Remember that the Christian Jews that Hebrews was written to were in some serious persecution and feeling forsaken. The writer of Hebrews was reassuring them that the Son of God was worthy of their dedication etc. Verse 4- ěBeing made so much better that the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.î Whoís name is more excellent than the angels? The Son of God. Verse 5- ěFor unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a father, and to me he shall be to me a Son?î Notice the questions that forces a comparison to the angels concreting the fact that there is no comparison. Verse 6- ěAnd again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him.î Here again, God is, by comparison setting up his Son as much higher and excellent than the angels because, they, ěallî the angels will worship Him . Verse 7- ěAnd of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8- But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and: a sceptre of thy kingdom.î Again, God is setting apart his Son, God, as opposed to angels that are ministering spirits. Verses 9-12 talks about Him loving righteousness and hating iniquity, laying the foundation of the earth, He will always remain and be the same. Verse 13-ěBut to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14- Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? God lifts up and glorifies His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, Savior and God so high that no one should dare try to fill his shoes, not even Michael the Archangel.

If we remember that the angels, great and awesome as they are, are ministering spirits to us in our physical realm and Jesus saves us in the spiritual realm. NO angel can claim that! Now, is it important who Jesus is or is not? I now, really think so!

Please comment with your thoughts,

Finally getting to study a bit.....Maryann
Lynn W
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 4:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's an excellent point. Mind if I pass it on?
Maryann
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn,

Didn't know you needed to ask? Of course, that's why it's posted. I hope you guys come up with more subjects I'm not afraid to tackle.

Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, March 03, 2000 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IF YOU CONFUSE THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL WITH JESUS CHRIST YOU ARE (1) WORSHIPING AN ANGEL, (2) INDULGING IN FALSE HUMILITY, AND (3) COULD BE DISQUALIFIED FROM "THE CROWN THAT WILL LAST FOREVER"

Colossians 2:18 (NIV): "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize."

What prize?

1 Corinthians 9:24,25 (NIV): "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever."

(Regarding this crown, see also 2 Timothy 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:11, Revelation 4:10.)

The NIV text note for Colossians 2:18 says this about "false humility." "Humility in which one delights is of necessity mock humility. Paul may refer to a professed humility in view of the absolute God, who was believed to be so far above man that he could only be worshiped in the form of angels [Gabriel? Michael? Uriel? Seraphim? Cherubim?] he had created. Second-century Gnosticism conceived of a list of spirit beings who had emanated from god and through whom God may be approached."

It also says this about "disqualify." "This term pictures an umpire or referee who excludes from competition any athlete who fails to follow the rules. The Colossians were not to permit any false teacher to deny the reality of their salvation because they were not delighting in mock humility and in the worship of angelic beings."

I would say, then, Let Jesus Christ be fully God and worship God the Father through him and the Holy Spirit only. Anything short of this lacks faith, "and everything that does not come from faith is sin." (Romans 14:23, NIV.)

God is not "far above us" but is present within and around us in the form of the Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus.

So don't let angels, even archangels, dilute or impede your worship. For if you do, you will be "delighting in false humility" -- which is sinful faithlessness -- and thus risking "the prize" which is "a crown that will last forever."
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Bible does not mention Jesus "becoming and angel" for any purpose. He became a man to complete the plan set in place "from the foundation of the world."

Michael the Archangel is clearly identified: he's an archangel. Jesus is clearly identified: Son of God, Son of Man, Immanuel, Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, Savior, Son of MaryÖ nowhere does the Bible identify Jesus as an angel. The only references that are at all angelic are in the Old Testament where the Angel of the Lord appeared to people. Many people believe those were appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ. But Jesus is not an angel.

Adventists have doen a pretty good job of identifying Jesus in ways that detract from his divinity.

"Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen."
Lynn W
Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2000 - 5:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, guys for all your input. Now for the typical SDA rebuttal: "But an archangel is not an angel, he's the head over all the angels, therefore, Michael is not an angel, but he is Christ."

WDYT?
One problem with this answer is that Ellen White specifically said, "The angel, who is Christ." I'm sure this came from her Arian days. Nevertheless, SDA are stuck with it, because of their stubborn idolatry of EGW.

There's also all the OT referrences to angels which seem to be used interchangably with the Lord. i.e. when someone says, "the angel of the Lord said..." then later, "the Lord said..."

I see that this way: My friend Carl calls and tells me the conversation he had with Sue. I then get off the phone and relate the whole story to my husband. I start by saying, "Carl said that Sue told him..." Then as the conversation progresses, I simply say, "Sue said..."
At this point, I'm just abbreviating for simplicity. I think that's what the OT narrators sometimes did. When they said "the angel said," it was on behalf of God, so later, they simply said, "the Lord said."
WDYT?
AIMAS?
Roswell Oatman
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2000 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I got this from a friend:

SDA's persist in perpetrating Ellen White's error that Jesus Christ is Michael. They are quick to point out that they do not believe Jesus is any kind of an angel. Since Michael is called an "Archangel", they interpret this to mean that Jesus is "Chief over the angels", while still being God. However, Daniel 10:13 says that Michael is "ONE OF the chief princes". Jesus is not "one of" any group! Michael lacked the authority to rebuke Satan (Jude 9). Jesus, on the other hand, repeatedly rebuked Satan (Matthew 17:l8, Mark 9:25, etc.).

Jesus is clearly not Michael.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2000 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn,

I think you were right on when you posted this:

"There's also all the OT referrences to angels which seem to be used interchangably with the Lord. i.e. when someone says, 'the angel of the Lord said...' then later, 'the Lord said...'

"I see that this way: My friend Carl calls and tells me the conversation he had with Sue. I then get off the phone and relate the whole story to my husband. I start by saying, 'Carl said that Sue told him...' Then as the conversation progresses, I simply say, 'Sue said...'"

Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary (latest edition), has a grammatical term for it: "synecdoche."

Synecdoche is defined as "a figure of speech by which a part is put for the whole (as "fifty" sail for "fifty ships" sail), whe whole for a part (as "society" for "high society"), the species for the genus (as "cutthroat" for "assassin"), or the name of the material for the thing made (as "boards" for "stage").

Professional writers use this kind of figure of speech all the time. For instance, a novelist may write, "The army knocked on Jeb's door," meaning, "A recruiting officer of the army knocked on Jeb's door." Using such figures of speech actually improves the writing, as long as the context lets the reader to know what's really going on.

And if novelists can use figures of speech, why can't Bible writers? The answer is that they can and do.

Example of synecdoche from the Bible: Genesis 16(NIV):

Verse 11: "The angel of the Lord also said to her [Hagar]....

Verse 13: "She [Hagar] gave this name to the Lord(Yaweh or "I AM") who spoke to her: 'You are the God who sees me....'"

Now, a reader has to be very ignorant, bordering on stupid, to conclude from this scriptural example that the writer of Genesis meant to say that the angel was identical to God or that the messenger was identical to the source of the message. And I don't think EGW was that ignorant and stupid.

I think, rather, that she was just trying to force Scripture to "fit the mold" of her false doctrine of Arianism, which holds that Christ is not God, but only God's agent, whether acting in capacity of angel or son.
Lynn W
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2000 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the help.
Chyna
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

from www.letusreason.org

If one is going to use Michael as alternate to Jesus because it means "like God", what of the angel Gabriel that also means mighty like God ? Does this make him Jesus too, since Jesus is called the mighty God in Isa.9:6 ? What about Micah whose name also means "who is like Yahweh" The names donít give a parallel but beg a question. Who is like God? Obviously no one. If Jesus is Michael than who are the other angels, are they God too?

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, dirst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said the Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 9)

Jesus has never been afraid of rebuking Satan. However, Michael couldn't rebuke him in his own name, but did in God's name. the word "dirst" means "dare not for fear of retribution" Jesus would never be afraid of retribution from Satan.

Explanations of the angel of the Lord were used. Such as in Gen.22 and Ex.3:2,6. While there is an agreement on this being called an angel to be THE Messenger of the Lord (Yahweh himself) nowhere does it hint it is Michael, nowhere is his name called Michael, instead it is always Yahweh (Malach Yahweh).
Sherry2
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That was helpful to me too Chyna. Thank you. That is one "truth" I really didn't understand and still don't (and please help me, I still got sda stuff to work out of) why it matters one way or another. To me it just seems like obscure texts that one has used in sda to say Jesus is Michael. But why did they do it to begin with. I just sort-of accepted it but didn't think much of it either way. Why do sda's feel this is important? Any one know? Thank you.
Chyna
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the reason SDA has this theology hails back to the beginning (and i have *READ* so much Adventist history - hours upon hours). Adventism has some roots in Arianism, which is where Jehovah's Witnesses also get their belief that Jesus is Michael, except they think that Jesus is not God or something, anyway.

why does it matter? when I asked my former sweetheart if he believed Jesus was Michael, he replied, "yes! it's a very simple bible study." of course that peturbed me profoundly. since SDA's belief that Jesus is Michael isn't profoundly changing on their understanding of Jesus, and God's nature, why is it a problem?

here's a personal anecdote that helped me realize why it is still unacceptable to let it slide.

back at school in about January, I pinched the pad of my finger with scissors, a blister arose, and it soon turned into a small callus. When I did pay attention to that callus I would frown because I wanted my finger back to the normal way, so sometime I would try to file away the callus like you are able to do with some of them. anyway, it didn't go away, it kept coming back. when I realized it was back again i tried to excise it, but it still came back.

my boyfriend (then) saw it when he came to see me in June. "That's a wart!" he said. I was like "It is NOT a wart." I hadn't known what a wart was anyway. turns out a wart is simply a virus (benign) that makes your cells grow (kinda like cancer, but not that bad).

anyway, I had that 'callus' for five months! I just ignored it for the most part, but then I went to get it treated, and now my finger is back to normal. i was just examining it a second ago and my fingerprint is restored back to normal. and I am quite happy.

that is like what the wrongly doctrine taught about Jesus being Michael is like to the Adventist church. it is merely a small callus (but really a wart). it's small enough that you aren't particularly concerned about it, but it is a blemish nonetheless. and the thing about warts is that while they're not highly contagious, they are spread by people contact. it's the same thing with this particular doctrine. since it is so odd it's not highly contagious, but some that are more susceptible (usually they have a crack in their skin somewhere) will let the virus in. and lo and behold they'll have a wart too.

as Christians we must make sure to treat warts and not let them spread to other people. incidentally, the treatment is to use liquid nitrogen to 'super freeze' the tissue that was infected (they are your own skin cells), so that the immune response can become attuned to it and develop antibodies to the virus and defeat it.

so, like the immune system, we need to first recognize the viruses so we can vanquish them, otherwise they'll persist and flourish.

** Sherry, also EGW fostered this belief, and what Ellen says goes, right? within the SDA church. so if EGW says Jesus is Michael then obviously the Bible must say so as well.

(aspiring doctor),
Chyna
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point, Chyna.

The problem with the SDA teaching that Jesus is Michael the Archangel is that it says that Jesus is a created being. Many people believe that Jesus is the son of God, but that as God's son, he was God's first creation.

Chyna is right; the SDA church did not teach that Jesus was God himself until the last part of the 19th century. They were Arian, and Ellen's writings taught that Jesus was the son of God but not God Himself.

In fact, Ellen's first published work that stated that Jesus was God himself was the Desire of Ages. In fact, when the church bretheren read it, they assumed she had received new light on the subject. She had never discussed the subject or the change of view with any of them. The strong implication here is that the very creditable material from which she borrowed probably had the point of view that Jesus was in fact God, so that teaching worked its way into her writing.

Whatever the case, the teaching that Jesus is Michael is much more significant than it appears on the surface. Ellen's writings about Jesus being merely God's son still exist, and she also taught that Jesus had man's sinful nature. At the very core of Adventism is the well-camouflaged teaching that Jesus is not fully the Christ.

As Chyna mentioned, the Jehovah's Witnesses also teach that Jesus is Michael, but they do not also talk out of the other side of their mouths and say he was the Christ. They openly discount his divinity.

It's an interesting historical fact that the JW's, the Mormons, and the Adventists all came into being during the same time period.

Mainstream Christians never say Jesus is Michael. Further, this assertion cannot be proven fromn the Bible. We pursued this discussion using the Bible as source material with our conservative Adventist family members, and no matter what we read to them from the Bible they were adamant: Ellen says he is Michael, and that's their final answer!

An interesting side note is that the verse in Jude which says that Michael fought with Satan over the body of Moses is an Adventist proof text that Moses was resurrected. If Michael is merely an angel, Adventists could not say Jesus resurrected Moses. That verse, by the way, does not say Moses was resurrected. And if we understand that Moses' soul went to be with Jesus after he died, we don't need his mortal body to be in heaven in order for Moses to appear with Jesus at the transfiguration.

The deception is so cleverly intertwined. All the doctrines subtly support each other. If one falls, the others eventually follow.

Colleen
Tony
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 6:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL ..... JESUS?"


To begin with I want to make something very very clear! I personally do not believe Jesus was a mere created angel, let me get that perfectly straight before we begin this study. Jesus was and is fully God.

However, I believe "Michael the Archangel" is only one of many symbols the bible uses.. eg. Jesus is the lamb, the lion, alpha and omega, good shepherd, the truth , the way etc. Jesus is not literally a lamb is he? Of course He isn't. It's simply a symbolic title given to Our Lord Jesus.

The term "Michael" appears only in apocalyptic passages [ie. prophetic passages which describe supernatural battles]... and all apocalyptic passages are symbolic, not literal by nature and definition. All the references are: Dan 10:13,21; 12:1; Jude 9; Rev 12:7. These are the only references, and all are symbolic and apocalyptic. Michael is a symbolic title only, just as lamb is.

Let's look at the phrase *angel of the LORD* in the story of Moses and the burning bush-

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Now note the following-

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

Acts 7:32 Saying, *I AM* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I AM*.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, *I AM* he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, *I AM* he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
John 18:8 I told you that *I AM* he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go.

Please notice that the word "he" that appears after *I AM* in the above verses is in italics to indicate that it does not appear in the orginal manuscripts. The word "he" does NOT appear in the original manuscripts and have been added by the translators. Please NOTE: The NIV translators have been rather nasty and have not even acknowledged that "he" was added by man. Please look in any KJV or NKJV and you will see it's in italics. And whatever you do remember that the word "he" does not appear in the original Koine Greek manuscripts.

Jesus Christ again makes it clear He is the *I AM*. Merely speaking the words made those present fall over. So the *angel of the Lord* and Jesus are identical to, and synonymous with, the *I AM* that met Moses at the burning bush.

Now look at the story of Hagar in Genesis-

Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

Gen 16:9 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen 16:10 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Hagar has been visited and spoken to by the *angel of the Lord*, but look who she says it was-

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Again the *angel of the Lord* is actually none other than the LORD Jesus Christ Himself. Now a little later in Genesis-

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Who would make a great nation of the lad? Surely not a mere created angel, but actually Jesus Christ Himself.

Now let's look at the story of Abraham and Isaac-

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God speaks to Abraham, giving him instructions to follow. Look who speaks to Abraham next-

Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16?

Now on to Jacob-

Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Who does this messenger identify Himself as?-

Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

This vow of Jacob's is found in Gen 28-

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

So the *angel of God* of Gen 31:11 is again none other than the LORD God (Jesus Christ).

Now to the Israelites in the wilderness-

Exo 14:19 And *the angel of God*, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Who went before them?-

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Again, the messenger or *angel of God* is the same as the LORD.

Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam-

Num 22:20 And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do.

Then a transition from God to *angel of the LORD*-

Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the *angel of the LORD* stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The *angel of the LORD* is used many times in verses 23,24,25,26,31,32,34,35 and the LORD in verses 28,31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably. In each case it is again refering to the LORD Jesus Christ.

Now in the book of Judges-

Judg 2:1 And an *angel of the LORD* came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

By now this should be easy. Just who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and made the covenant with Israel that He would never break - *an angel of the LORD* or Jesus Christ, GOD Himself? Yes, the answer is both, one and the same.

Now look who visits Gideon later in Judges-

Judg 6:11 And there came an *angel of the LORD*, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

Note what this messenger (angel) says-

Judg 6:12 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

THE LORD IS WITH THEE ... it was indeed Jesus with Gideon, note-

Judg 6:20 And the *angel of God* said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
Judg 6:21 Then the *angel of the LORD* put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the *angel of the LORD* departed out of his sight.
Judg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an *angel of the LORD*, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an *angel of the LORD* face to face.

Now look who (again) speaks-

Judg 6:23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

Gideon had been speaking with the LORD Jesus Christ all along.

On to Judges 13-

Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

*Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13,15,16,18,20 and ...

Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.

So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

They knew it was God. But why not God the Father, you might ask?-

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So none of these events I cite could be God the Father, He has never been seen by man or spoken to man. Clearly then, in the instances I cite, the phrase *angel of the LORD* or *angel of God* actually meant Jesus Christ, who is the *chief messenger (angel) of the LORD (God the Father)*, who has declared the Father to mankind.

Here is a further text to consider-

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The *Angel which redeemed me* from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Notice that Israel was talking about God and then transitioned to an angel-

God, --- before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk
God --- which fed me all my life long unto this day
The *Angel --- which redeemed me* from all evil
(*the Angel* that) --- bless the lads; and let my name be named on them
(*the Angel* that) --- let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth

This is referring back to Gen 28:13-15 and the Lord's promise to Jacob (Israel)-

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

So in Gen 48:16 Israel is speaking of God as a redeeming angel. Again, not angel the sense of a created being, but rather in the generic sense of the word, meaning messenger. What created angel could redeem anyone? None. Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, and that is exactly who Jacob (Israel) had been speaking with and about. Jesus was, and is, that redeeming angel (messenger) sent from God the Father.

So now, what of Michael the archangel? Is it so difficult to believe that he may actually be Jesus Christ? Let's look at each instance he is mentioned in the Bible and see-

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #1

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the *archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Who raises the dead with His voice? Not a created angel, indeed not even a created archangel. The shout is given with the voice of the *archangel*, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is the voice of Jesus Christ (the Son of man) that raises the dead. Just as 1 Th 4:16 says, the Lord Jesus shall descend from heaven and shout with the voice of the Archangel, because He is the Archangel. With that shout, the righteous dead will be raised from their graves.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #2

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old Testament event-

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also *Michael the archangel*, contending with satan for both Moses and Joshua.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #3

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, *Michael*, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

The prince of the kingdom of Persia is a reference to satan, and Michael refers again to Jesus. It is the created angel Gabriel that is speaking with Daniel (See Dan 8:16, 9:21). The reference to Michael as one of the chief princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #4

Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

So is Gabriel saying that only a created being knows the truth of scripture? No, clearly not. Michael the archangel is Jesus, God, who knows all the truth of scripture.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #5

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Michael standing up is a reference to the second coming of Jesus at the end of time.

Please note the following verses:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #6

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Who leads the angelic host of heaven, who is their captain?

Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice that Joshua worshipped the *captain of the Host*? If this were a mere angel, then the angel would have protested Joshua worshipping him, just as the angel protested John the Revelator worshipping him (Rev 22:8-9). So Joshua met with God (Jesus Christ) the *captain of the Host*. That is why he stood on holy ground and was asked to remove his shoes (just like Moses was asked in Exo 3:5 and Acts 7:33). Therefore, in Rev 12:7 you have Satan and his angels, and Jesus (Michael, the *captain of the Host*) and His angels - this was the war that began in heaven and continues today.

So we have learned that Michael means "one like God".

To deny then that Michael is a symbolic title for Jesus Himself, would be to believe that some mere angel that was even lower than Lucifer himself, is one LIKE GOD!

This is of course not the case, so Michael is none other than our beautiful Lord Jesus Himself :)

Michael means *who (is) like God?* A very good question indeed - who is like Jesus?

You must also ask yourself this question.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
Rev 12:8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Wasn't Lucifer the highest angel before he was cast out? Yes he was, so how then if Michael is just an created angel be stronger than Lucifer himself to throw him out! Answer: Because Michael is none other than Jesus Himself :) Just another symbolic title given to our beautiful Lord and Saviour. :)

As the above clearly shows, according to scripture Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael (the principle messenger - but not a created being), who appeared time and again in the Bible.

God bless you all.

With warm Christian love,
Tony Valentino

Email: hopesearch@hotmail.com
Web: www.hopesearch.cjb.net
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

coincidentally i'm putting together a case against michael as jesus for my ex-b/f, what i have so far.

first there is no disputing that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ, because Joshua and his men worshipped Him. However, it is said as Angel of the Lord, and never Archangel. two very different terms. one thing i'd like to add is that Jesus is never referred to directly as Michael. most of the evidence is extrapolated from passages, but are not kept in the context of what we already know about Jesus.

Daniel 10:13
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

the word "one" as in "one of the chief princes" means this in Hebrew:

'echad TWOT - 61
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ekh-awd' Adjective

Definition
one (number)
one (number)
each, every
a certain
an (indefinite article)
only, once, once for all
one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
first
eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

one adventist's page tried to claim that this was saying that this was a foremost chief prince or whatever, anyway.

look at the word 'Principalities' it is exclusively used for Angels (including demons), the word principalities comes from the word prince. so, there you go, princes, angels.

>The reference to Michael as one of the chief >princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with >Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ have clear designations and clear names. God the Father, Jesus: Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God.

Most interpretations think that 'one of the chief princes' is referring to that there is probably more than one archangel.

>1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend >from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the >*archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the >dead in Christ shall rise first:

(2 Th 1:7 NIV) "and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."

Joh 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Joh 5:28
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

i was looking at these verse b/c my ex showed them to me. obviously it is only by God's power that the dead are raised. the way I see the format it is:

the Lord came with a, with b, and with c.

a. a shout
b. voice of archangel
c. trumpet

now i'll say that i think that the shout belongs to the Lord, in context of those other verses, but look at 2 Thessalonians 1:7. the Lord Jesus Christ comes with angels. also, seeing that Michael is one of the foremost angels, it would be logical to conclude that he would be with Christ at rapture, look at what this commentary has to say about it:

Question: Why is Michael heard at the rapture?

Answer: Because Israel comes back into God's prophetic program with the 70th week commencing, thus leaving only seven years until Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth.

Michael is Israel's protector (in the Bible there are different kinds of angels):

Michael is mentioned five times in the Bible, always warring against Satan's forces:

1. He helps a lesser ranked angel break free from the evil angel Prince of Persia to answer Daniel's prayer:

"But, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me;" Daniel 10:13,21.

"There is none that holdeth (supports) with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Daniel 10:21.

We see here that:

a) Michael is one of the chief princes, which implies that there may be other archangels.

b) Also we see that Michael is Israel's prince guardian angel, assigned to Israel.

c) We also see that Satan assigns evil angels to increase the evil and corruption in a nation, as in the case of the evil angel called the Prince of Persia (a Principality), who is assigned to Persia.

d) "I remained there with the Kings of Persia" (10:13) shows angelic "thrones" referred to as the "Kings of Persia".

2. Michael will stand up to protect Israel in the future seven year Tribulation, as their guardian angel:

"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble...." Daniel 12:1.

anyway. yes, lucifer is probably stronger than Michael, outranking Him, however, notice that it is not just Michael fighting, it is Michael and his angels. Plus, whenever the Lord is on your side, you win. Just like when that one guy (i forgot who) had to keep his arms raised, and as long as they were raised they would win the battle. Just so like Michael and his angels will win coz God will be with them, not that God is Michael.

>Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael >and his angels fought against the dragon, and >the dragon and his angels fought back.
>Rev 12:8 But he was not strong enough, and they >lost their place in heaven.
>Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that >ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who >leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to >the earth, and his angels with him.

>Wasn't Lucifer the highest angel before he was >cast out? Yes he was, so how then if Michael is >just an created angel be stronger than Lucifer >himself to throw him out! Answer: Because >Michael is none other than Jesus Himself :) Just >another symbolic title given to our beautiful >Lord and Saviour. :)

again we come to Jude 1:9

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I'll repeat this one more time, "durst" means "tolmao" in Greek, which always means when paired with a negative that they "did not dare in fear of retaliation" Jesus Christ is God, there is no great controversy where Jesus and Satan are on equal par. Who created Satan? God, Jesus is God also, and in this incident, if Michael were Jesus He wouldn't have the incarnate part on Him yet either. God never fears Satan.

>This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old >Testament event-

This is not a duplicate event. It is two separate incidents. if it was a parallel passage I might lend credence, but it is not. One is talking about Michael the other is talking about the Angel of the Lord. It does not say in the bible that Michael is the Angel of the Lord. Never. All we have are extrapolations because sometimes Jesus is referred to as an Angel of the Lord, that since Michael has part of his category 'archangel' that those two can be equal.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

the word "LORD" in verse 3:2 means:

hwhy from (01961)
Transliterated Word TWOT Entry
*Y@hovah* 484a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yeh-ho-vaw' Proper Name

Definition
Jehovah = "the existing One"
the proper name of the one true God
unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136

now in Jude 1:9

Michael means this in Hebrew and Greek:

*micael* of Hebrew origin (04317)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Michael None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mikh-ah-ale' Noun Masculine

Definition
Michael = "who is like God"
the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the Israelites

*lakym* from (04310) and (the prefix derivative from) (03588) and (0410)
Transliterated Word TWOT Entry
Miyka'el None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
me-kaw-ale' Proper Name Masculine

Definition
Michael = "who is like God"
one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel


also to note, that in the Zechariah verse, Jesus shows no fear of Satan unlike Jude 1:9 and you had so nicely pointed out that Satan was highest of all the angels and likely more powerful than Michael.

one thing I'd like adventists to admit is that there is a DISTINCT possibility that Jesus is not Michael and that while they have scriptures to back up their viewpoint, none of the scriptures state an absolute case for Jesus as Michael.

1. angels have different jobs: protectors, guardians, defending God's holiness, showing God's holiness

2. angels are called collectively 'principalities'
so they can be called princes

3. true angel means messenger. but in no way has Angel of the Lord ever been confused with Archangel as interchangeable terms

4. when Jesus comes back He'll come back with angels. to account for the voice of the archangel

5. Michael is heard then b/c he's the protector of Israel and the 70 week thing is going to happen and Israel will go through God's plan, he's happy b/c he is Israel's protector

6. Zechariah uses Jehovah. Jude uses Michael. Jehovah is clearly God, Michael is not.

7. Jesus means: "Jehovah is salvation" Michael's name 'who is like God' never says he is God, just like Him.

hope this helps,
Chyna
Chyna
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 8:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

coincidentally i'm putting together a case against michael as jesus for my ex-b/f, what i have so far.

first there is no disputing that the Angel of the Lord is Jesus Christ, because Joshua and his men worshipped Him. However, it is said as Angel of the Lord, and never Archangel. two very different terms. one thing i'd like to add is that Jesus is never referred to directly as Michael. most of the evidence is extrapolated from passages, but are not kept in the context of what we already know about Jesus.

Daniel 10:13
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

the word "one" as in "one of the chief princes" means this in Hebrew:

'echad TWOT - 61
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ekh-awd' Adjective

Definition
one (number)
one (number)
each, every
a certain
an (indefinite article)
only, once, once for all
one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
first
eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

one adventist's page tried to claim that this was saying that this was a foremost chief prince or whatever, anyway.

look at the word 'Principalities' it is exclusively used for Angels (including demons), the word principalities comes from the word prince. so, there you go, princes, angels.

>The reference to Michael as one of the chief >princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with >Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ have clear designations and clear names. God the Father, Jesus: Prince of Peace, Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God.

Most interpretations think that 'one of the chief princes' is referring to that there is probably more than one archangel.

>1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend >from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the >*archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the >dead in Christ shall rise first:

(2 Th 1:7 NIV) "and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."

Joh 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Joh 5:28
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

i was looking at these verse b/c my ex showed them to me. obviously it is only by God's power that the dead are raised. the way I see the format it is:

the Lord came with a, with b, and with c.

a. a shout
b. voice of archangel
c. trumpet

now i'll say that i think that the shout belongs to the Lord, in context of those other verses, but look at 2 Thessalonians 1:7. the Lord Jesus Christ comes with angels. also, seeing that Michael is one of the foremost angels, it would be logical to conclude that he would be with Christ at rapture, look at what this commentary has to say about it:

Question: Why is Michael heard at the rapture?

Answer: Because Israel comes back into God's prophetic program with the 70th week commencing, thus leaving only seven years until Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth.

Michael is Israel's protector (in the Bible there are different kinds of angels):

Michael is mentioned five times in the Bible, always warring against Satan's forces:

1. He helps a lesser ranked angel break free from the evil angel Prince of Persia to answer Daniel's prayer:

"But, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me;" Daniel 10:13,21.

"There is none that holdeth (supports) with me in these things, but Michael your prince." Daniel 10:21.

We see here that:

a) Michael is one of the chief princes, which implies that there may be other archangels.

b) Also we see that Michael is Israel's prince guardian angel, assigned to Israel.

c) We also see that Satan assigns evil angels to increase the evil and corruption in a nation, as in the case of the evil angel called the Prince of Persia (a Principality), who is assigned to Persia.

d) "I remained there with the Kings of Persia" (10:13) shows angelic "thrones" referred to as the "Kings of Persia".

2. Michael will stand up to protect Israel in the future seven year Tribulation, as their guardian angel:

"At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble...." Daniel 12:1.

anyway. yes, lucifer is probably stronger than Michael, outranking Him, however, notice that it is not just Michael fighting, it is Michael and his angels. Plus, whenever the Lord is on your side, you win. Just like when that one guy (i forgot who) had to keep his arms raised, and as long as they were raised they would win the battle. Just so like Michael and his angels will win coz God will be with them, not that God is Michael.

>Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael >and his angels fought against the dragon, and >the dragon and his angels fought back.
>Rev 12:8 But he was not strong enough, and they >lost their place in heaven.
>Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that >ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who >leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to >the earth, and his angels with him.

>Wasn't Lucifer the highest angel before he was >cast out? Yes he was, so how then if Michael is >just an created angel be stronger than Lucifer >himself to throw him out! Answer: Because >Michael is none other than Jesus Himself :) Just >another symbolic title given to our beautiful >Lord and Saviour. :)

again we come to Jude 1:9

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I'll repeat this one more time, "durst" means "tolmao" in Greek, which always means when paired with a negative that they "did not dare in fear of retaliation" Jesus Christ is God, there is no great controversy where Jesus and Satan are on equal par. Who created Satan? God, Jesus is God also, and in this incident, if Michael were Jesus He wouldn't have the incarnate part on Him yet either. God never fears Satan.

>This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old >Testament event-

This is not a duplicate event. It is two separate incidents. if it was a parallel passage I might lend credence, but it is not. One is talking about Michael the other is talking about the Angel of the Lord. It does not say in the bible that Michael is the Angel of the Lord. Never. All we have are extrapolations because sometimes Jesus is referred to as an Angel of the Lord, that since Michael has part of his category 'archangel' that those two can be equal.

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

the word "LORD" in verse 3:2 means:

hwhy from (01961)
Transliterated Word TWOT Entry
*Y@hovah* 484a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yeh-ho-vaw' Proper Name

Definition
Jehovah = "the existing One"
the proper name of the one true God
unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136

now in Jude 1:9

Michael means this in Hebrew and Greek:

*micael* of Hebrew origin (04317)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Michael None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mikh-ah-ale' Noun Masculine

Definition
Michael = "who is like God"
the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the Israelites

*lakym* from (04310) and (the prefix derivative from) (03588) and (0410)
Transliterated Word TWOT Entry
Miyka'el None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
me-kaw-ale' Proper Name Masculine

Definition
Michael = "who is like God"
one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel


also to note, that in the Zechariah verse, Jesus shows no fear of Satan unlike Jude 1:9 and you had so nicely pointed out that Satan was highest of all the angels and likely more powerful than Michael.

one thing I'd like adventists to admit is that there is a DISTINCT possibility that Jesus is not Michael and that while they have scriptures to back up their viewpoint, none of the scriptures state an absolute case for Jesus as Michael.

1. angels have different jobs: protectors, guardians, defending God's holiness, showing God's holiness

2. angels are called collectively 'principalities'
so they can be called princes

3. true angel means messenger. but in no way has Angel of the Lord ever been confused with Archangel as interchangeable terms

4. when Jesus comes back He'll come back with angels. to account for the voice of the archangel

5. Michael is heard then b/c he's the protector of Israel and the 70 week thing is going to happen and Israel will go through God's plan, he's happy b/c he is Israel's protector

6. Zechariah uses Jehovah. Jude uses Michael. Jehovah is clearly God, Michael is not.

7. Jesus means: "Jehovah is salvation" Michael's name 'who is like God' never says he is God, just like Him.

hope this helps,
Chyna
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kelly,

This threads for you;-)

Atleast the pertinent parts of it. As you have probably noticed, many threads start out "on subject" and stray into many areas and that is fine. Feel free to cut into about any area you like or start your own thread;-))

IBC=insured by Christ...Maryann
Richardhardison
Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2001 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was at a conference a few nights ago and having a hard time sleeping, or an easy time not sleeping, for the optimists out there, so I got up, paced and prayed and after I was prayed out got out my Franklin ěBookmanî sat down and wrote this with the intention of posting it here not knowing a thread had been started and exhausted. I think the case can be simplified and so I post for anyone to use as they see fit.

Iíve several SDA friends who believe Michael and Christ are the same personality and plan to bring this up with them in the future. If you would like a copy of this, e-mail me at mrgcoengr@hotmail.com and Iíll send you a copy minus the formatting codes in rich text format which anyone should be able to read. Hopefully the formatting works, Iím a bit rusty since I havenít done any of this since I left aToday 18 months ago.

Michael, A Character Study

Michael, one of the archangels is mentioned five times in all scripture, three times in the Old Testament, two times in the New Testament. He is referred to variously as,

1. One of the chief princes (Daniel 10:13)
2. Your chief prince (Daniel 10:21)
3. The great prince (Daniel 12:1)
4. The archangel (Jude 9)
5. As a leader of angels (Rev 12:7)

I will consider 1 and 2 together as they are in the same passage and 3, 4, and 5 in turn.

The questions to answer: 1. Who is Michael, 2. What is he, and 3. What is his function in Godís kingdom?

Daniel 10:13, 21

10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you." While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling. 12 Then he said to me, "Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 "Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come." 15 When he had spoken such words to me, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. 16 And suddenly, one having the likeness of the sons of men touched my lips; then I opened my mouth and spoke, saying to him who stood before me, "My lord, because of the vision my sorrows have overwhelmed me, and I have retained no strength. 17 "For how can this servant of my lord talk with you, my lord? As for me, no strength remains in me now, nor is any breath left in me."
18 Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19 And he said, "O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!" So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, "Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me."
20 Then he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia. When I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 "But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince).î


The context of the passage is Danielís prayer, involving the future of the Nation of Israel. An angel came to deliver Godís answer (vs 5-12). Daniel had apparently prayed for three weeks (vs 2,3) and did not receive an answer because the ěPrince of the Kingdom of Persiaî delayed him in his mission to deliver Godís answer to Daniel. Michael, ěone of the chief princes,î helped the angel escape the demonic angel assigned to Persia allowing him to deliver Godís answer to Daniel.

In verse 22, after assuring Daniel of Godís love and confidence in him, the angel tells him that he will have to fight the same evil angel as well as the demon assigned to Greece and that no one will help him in battle except Michael (vs 21).

Daniel 12:1

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people will be delivered, Everyone who is found written in the book.

In this instance Michael is the guard of Israel. Once again, he is referred as a ěgreat prince,î as in Daniel 10:13. The terms ěprince,î ěgreat prince,î ěchief prince,î are used only in the old testament.

New Testament References

Jude 9

9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

There are at least two questions that can be asked of this passage. I will be concerned only with the nature and function of Michael and not the seeming disparity of position and rank between Michael and the devil.

This passage says two things about Michael, one directly, the other indirectly. The direct reference is to Michael as an archangel (ěthe archangelî). The indirect reference is his position as a messenger on Godís behalf saying, ěthe lord rebuke you.î Michael speaks with Godís authority as he is on a mission assigned him by God and so Satan must stand aside and allow Michael to complete the task set by God.

Two things are said by implication, 1. The archangel is subordinate to God, 2. Since every being subordinate to God is a created being, then the archangel is a created being.

Revelation 12:7

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

This passage pictures Michael as a leader of angels in battle against Satan, ěthe dragon,î and his angels. Other than being a leader of angels in battle nothing else can be inferred.

Conclusions

In all scripture very little is said about Michael or angels in general. This does not mean they are minor players in any respect. Their function, in fact, as ěMinisters to the heirs of salvationî (Hebrews 1:13-14) makes them anything but unimportant in Godís Kingdom. In fact, they have primacy over man in the order of creation having, apparently, existed prior to manís creation.

Still, we must not accord them honors to which they are not entitled and belong only to God. Some confuse Michael, an archangel, prince of angels, with Christ, one of the Godhead, and indeed, creator of all (John 1:1-3). However, to accept such confusion is to make a serious error, and one which has cropped up occasionally in church history.

The references given above are exhaustive and give each reference to Michael. From these references we can conclude,

1. He is one of the chief angels, or an archangel.
2. That he is apparently the guardian angel of Israel
3. That he fights with Satan, verbally, as in Jude 9, and in violent confrontations, as in Revelation 12:7, on Godís behalf and in subordination to God as seen in Jude 9.

To conflate Michael, a created being subordinate to God, and Christ, who is God, is to make Christ a created being. This error can only be made if one ignores the major passage on Christ, Hebrews 1:13, John 1:1-3, and Psalm 110:1. The argument that Michael is a non-created ěarchangelî can not be supported from scripture. Tony Valentinoís argument above is mere special pleading. Michael is an archangel, and Jesus Christ is God of very God, and never the twain shall meet.

All scripture refs are NKJV

Grace and Peace!
Richard L. Hardison
Lynnw
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Compare your Jude 9 or any other real version with the "Clear Word" (SDA Bible).
9 In contrast to these ungodly men is the Lord Jesus, also called Michael the Archangel, for He is in charge of the entire angelic host...

My husband, Dave, and his brother are doing and evening class on cults in our church. Dave started teaching on SDA last night. It's a small turnout, but it's growing. It took a long time to get to the point where we could have such a class. Praise the Lord.

We just learned that SDA & JW aren't the only ones who believe Michael is Christ. Seems the Mormons beat them to it. Wonder where EGW got it from? Funny how SDA have more in common with well-known cults than with traditional Christianity.

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