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James_Jean (James_Jean)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Bible study I lead that SDA's come to. One man has a saying, we must be safe to take to heaven. When I ask him if he is talking about sanctification, I quote a verse like I Cor. 1:2. All he says is God must know we won't rebel in heaven. Have any of you heard this saying before, if so what is he talking about.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a guess:

Obedience to THE LAW!!!

That, of course, mostly means "keeping the Sabbath."

I would imagine he is trying to move you around to legalism.

So, if I have it right, the next tack is to do the "you MUST obey the WHOLE Bible, right?"
James_Jean (James_Jean)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry that was the tone when we first started, but the ones that have stayed in the Bible study have over time agreed that the Old Testament must be understood in light of the New Testament. There have been some that are attending other churches. One just last week said he was going to start reading the Bible without EGW. I have to believe that if we keep studying the Gospel of Grace that it will either harden or soften any man's heart. If it hardens the man will leave. If it soften he will stay and be changed by it.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jery, you are just too funny. You could be the "Eddie Murphy" of the SDA stand-up comedy show. I sure hope there are not more than 144,000 who make their living drug dealing so they can afford to send their children to parocahal school! And, yes I have deffinatelly heard the dribble about God having to be very sure of whom He lets into heaven for fear of rebellion there. I believe it was explained to me that rebellion in heaven happened once already (Lucifer and his fallen angels) so God must be extra dilligent next time so as to be certain that history dosen't repete itself. Frankly, I find that entire idea totally warped.
Windmotion (Windmotion)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hello fellow ex-adventists. my name is david. i am posting my first message ever on this site under my wifes name. any of you who are acquainted with her postings know that she was never an adventist but i was. i'm not very interested in detailing my reasons for leaving the church at this point. i'll just say that my departure took several years and i am unshakeable in my conviction that the adventist church is a sham.
i decided to write because my wife read me one of your guests recent postings. i won't tear this person down or judge their mental stability in this forum but i certainly do question their motives in writing the post i am going to address.
i am refering to susan 2 and her remarkable story about a drug dealer that she knew very well.
straight up, i don't believe her. i think her story is a complete lie. i am offended by the idea that some people might wish to impugne the structure of adventist practice with lies. i feel there is plenty of evidence available to convict the adventist belief system as faulty without manufacturing a "worst case scenario" story of how rigid adventist belief can go so wrong.
heres a bit of testimony just to qualify things. i used to be heavily involved in dope myself. i used it and i sold it to support my habit. i was never a stupid stereotypical drug addict. i never hit the botom, i never ran out of cash, i even evaded detection by law enforcement. i was under investigation and still beat the task force. i quit being involved with the drug world simply because i got older and decided it didn't fit with my long term goals anymore. i'm being very general here, the point i'm making is that i'm very qualified to talk about or understand the culture of using and dealing dope. it's not a great distinction to hold but a person who has been in that culture successfully knows when someone else is making things up in relation to that culture as if they had some kind of first hand knowledge.
i have the benefit of having been both a rebellious adventist who thought adventism was the only way to god, and a successful drug user who has quit for many years.
susan would have us all to believe that an entire church and community knew this man was selling hard drugs to, "poor, suffering drug adicts", yet not a single person would inform on him? is she suggesting the vast majority of adventists don't have a problem with people enslaving others with horrible chemical dependencies? is she also suggesting that others in her community who weren't adventists approved as well? why doesn't she explain why she didn't inform?
would she have thinking people to believe that god fearing adventists would disregard scriptural direction to obey the civil authorities? would she actually expect us to believe that adventists would applaud someone in their midst destroying others lives so they could keep their children in adventist school?
her statement that, "mr. drug dealer", instructed his clients to buy all they needed on friday before the sabbath implies he was selling very adictive drugs. people who are on coke, heroin, or methamphetamine, for example, need a constant supply. i state that so you will see that she was implying he was selling more than a "soft" drug such as marijuana. from my own personal experience pot smokers can buy a bag and make it last a few days or a few weeks. no one goes through withdrawls on pot.
i could go further with challenging the assertions of this woman. i have simply given a sample of my problems with her story. i don't need to break down every element of her story under the microscope.
logic itself suggests strongly that anyone as heavily involved in dope dealing, as susan asserts, would not be involved with any church. they certainly wouldn't be that anally involved with the fine points of adventism and adventist discipline.
we all have plenty of mud to throw at adventism, let's not make any up. this is where i stand.
sincerely,
david newton
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

James Jean, I have heard people use that same expression, about "being safe to save"...I have never really thought much about it, cause I use to hear it a lot. I am interested in others comments on this too. Thanks.
Janet
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear David, Welcome to the forum. I hope you can come to know the love of Jesus and learn true grace on this discussion group. And, yes, the story I posted is totally true. The man is now living in a state in the Northern part of the U.S. I believe his son is up in that state, too. My son, who is now 27 years old and the son of the man I knew who sold drugs were in first, second and third grades together at the SDA academy in my area. And, the truth is NO, I would never turn him in, or most likly any other drug dealer. Why would I want to do such a thing? I am not working in law enforceent. I happen to honestly believe that our state should follow the path of the Netherlands with regards to the drug laws. This is the United States of America and as a regustered Libertarian I truly believe in the government staying out of peoples business. The function of government is protection by the military and to get criminial off the streets who violate others, NOT to get drug pushers off the streets or hypes or any other dopers. In fact, during the 2000 presidential election campaign time I went to L.A. and heard the mayor of Salt Lake City and the govenor of New Mexico as well as numerous others tell true stories about how our drug laws ruin families. You can go to any county library or maybe even on the Internet and read the hitory of our nations opressive drug laws. In fact, you can log onto www.hightimes.com and get a lot of the info if you want. But, I can well assure you that I truly do know very well all the people I mentioned in the above posts. Not only do I know them but being a lovely family, many others know them, too. In fact, the fellow I mentioned above did a few years later get busted along with numerous other friends of mine, about six of whom I went to academy with during my high school years in SDA schools. In fact, do you recall ever listening to Paul Harvey? He metioned the bust on his radio program. At that time, and this was many years ago, it was a rather large bust. Sadly, there have been numerous much larger busts since then. Anyway, I happen to agree with the SDA's that I knew at that time that is was good parenting on the part of the dad to continue taking his boy to Sabdath School. In fact, to this day I believe the friend of mine was/is a really good and loving dad to his son. What I wanted to get across was how strongly some SDA's really do believe in not woirking on the Sabbath, even to the point that if they make their living illegially they still "Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy" and also just how strongly the teaching of not eating pork is so deep into some peoples psyche. Frankly, I never did much like doing drugs but I have known alot of people who did or do. I think it's a waste of money, time and health but I also think it should be totally decriminialized because our laws are tearing apart families. Praise God that we are each given a brain so with our minds we can reason and hopefully live our lives to God's glory. I will not say those peoples names and exact things that can identify them even after so many years. But, my dear friend who did the babysitting for the boy at that time, her and me still reminise about those "old days". She has converted to some offshoot form of Zen Buddhism. I hope, David that this forum can enlighten you as to just how deeply some (notice I did not say "all") SDA's are totally brainwashed into "worshipping" their distinct doctrines, which include the Sabbath as they understand it and the not eating of unclean meats. Everyone has their quirks, and my friend had his. I have some ways about me that maybe to some people seem really off center, esapecially when my Tourette's is acting up and I start twitching and jerking and mouthing inapproiate words, like happened to me earlier today in a local eating establishment. Remember, "all have fallen short of the glory of God and let him who has not sinned cast the first stone." Also, "by grace we are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord".
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello David/Windmotion,

My name is Denise and I too was in the midst of being into drugs years ago. So from the same lifestyle it seems we have come from.

Although I was not a church goer while using drugs, I will say that I've seen many "illegal" activities done in order to gain money to pay tithe.

Here are a few examples:

"Selling a house to an unmarried couple who do use drugs" in being able "bless" the church missionaries and other functions of the SDA church.

Not paying a speeding ticket because "tithe" was more important. Therefore if they went to jail, it would be classified as "persecution" by the one who broke civil law in order to maintain the tithe law of the church.

I know of many who still hold garage sales, not claiming them as taxable as they ought according to civil tax laws, in order to pay more tithes for the purpose of more blessings.

Currently there is a man in the SDA church who is a personal friend of mine that has and does sell drugs and also uses them. When he uses them, he does not attend church and everyone knows he is back out there again using. However, once he is clean of drug using, he turns to selling them and has told more than just myself of this. He has told his mother, who is a practicing SDA and she does not turn him in and is very pleased that he is attending church and paying his tithe.

I don't feel free to "turn people in" since I'm not a part of the SDA community nor can I prove his assertations of selling drugs nor have I been with him while he does such things. However, I've no reason to believe he would lie about such a thing.

This man brags to me how much money he has and has come right out and told me that I wouldn't be so broke if I just did a few things i.e. selling drugs, not claiming taxable items and more which would enable me to pay tithe to God and thus become blessed and be rich like he is becoming.

These are just a few.

Now David, I know for a fact too, that there are many many good law abiding citizens and faithful to God people in the SDA church. This is not anything that I would deny as I know too many of these folks. But still, there are those exceptions and it is not limited to SDA in my opinion...but in every single denomination I've ever been exposed to.

This has been my experience as witnessed by God Himself and I believe that your experience is just as real as well.

For the record, I do not believe that Susan was trying to make the entire denomination look this way but that is up to her to speak.

I, for one, do not believe that the entire denomination of SDAs are like that. But will acknowledge that many are. I will also acknowlege that this is not just a SDA problem but runs in Baptist Churches, Lutheran, Nazarene and many many more.

God Bless you David and I'm glad you posted and hope that you will continue to post your experiences into all catagories that you are knowledgable of, especially in topics like these. WE ALL need to see both sides in my opinion.

Again, thanks and Peace in Jesus Christ Name. amen.

denise
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i also had a friend at that time (we long ago lost contact) who was a prtacticing Mormon. He also did sme very shady things. He used to attend the special musical services at the SDA church. Also, at various other churches as he totally loved chiour singing, cantadas, and listening to the philharmonic. All I can attribute it to is that the Holy Spirit, even when one is on a wayword path, is still working within that person with what will help that person be open to letting Jesus come in.I haven't a clue though if his friends acquaintences at his local Ward knew anything of his shady activities on the side. BTW, Ward is the word the Mormons use for Synod, or the SDA's term, Conference.
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 10:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,

Your post beat mine or you type faster..dont' know which. Glad that David posted that though cause it's good to have balance if you ask me.

Like I posted to David, my experience so far in church going is that illegal activities happen in every single denomination that I've been to so far. This term "illegal" is simply an umbrella term for a host of criminal activity that Christians in general don't pay heed to under the cloak of being a "good christian." That's my experience in what I've witnessed.

I think it's good to see both sides of all things and in ALL churches as well. We would be better off than most of the churches are doing so far if you ask me. There is so much crime among Christians in general that it is appalling to me. And I'm speaking of all the different denominations that I've been to so far. Not just the SDAs.

And no, I am not SDA in case someone might think that. I used to be, amongst other things.

Blessings and Peace to you too, in Christ Jesus Name. amen.

denise
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Deniese, Thanks. I in no way tried to implament the entire denomination. I didn' even try to impliment the entire congreation. However, the ones who did know had a RIGHT HEART, in that they always felt that the Holy Spirit was still in his heart enough that he hadn't given up the truth entirely. Even my own son, when he's not incarcerated loves going to the SDA church with his grandmother. And, I frankly encourage it because at this point with some people I know I truly believe any church involvement is better than no church involvement at all. There has to be a starting point. Also, David, haven't you read yourself about the shady accounting at some of the various Adventist health institutations? There was one around two years ago Back East (Washington, D.C., I think) that really got some bad press because of the lies their accounts werwe reporting to the I.R.S. and other agencies that needed a true accounting so as to maintain their tax exempt status. Have you not read about the massacure by SDA's on their own SDA people in the country of Rowanda? I dare say that my friend, the drug dealing daddy was no where as wicked as some things that go on in a church. However, the church is made up of people, individuals who have their sinful ways. No one in any earthly organiation can ever be in a perfect organization because all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. Now, the Bible does say that to break one command is to break them all. But, I take that to mean before God. We have civil laws in this country and certainly murder is considered a more seriouscrime than some other crimes. It does say by Jesus himself to render unto Ceaser that which is Ceasers and to God that which is Gods. I take that tomean much more than just money. I also would interpert it to mean that since we here in the U.S. are citizens of this country we should be the best citizens we can be. I was watching the History Channal one night and a WW2 veteran was on and said that was the verse that led him to join the military because he is a citizen of this country so he was rendering himself to fight for his homeland. But, truly until we get into Gods heavenly kingdom there will even be shady people atending churches. And, that is a good thing! You know the saying, "preachig to the choiour"? Well, let's have preaching to the sinners! Maybe that's another reason I've come into the Lutheran fold-it's grace, grace, grace, every week there and I never tire of hearing it.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since most of my blood kin are SDA and many of my in-laws are JW, I also read (but have never posted) the discussions going on at a former JW website forum. Having never been to a JW service, except one funeral, I can not say if or not what I read on their "formrs" website is true or not. But, on there they keep saying there is an UNdeclred accptance among the JW's that is is alright to do unethical things to non-JW's and to lie to non-JW's because the non-JW's are lost anyway because they don't have the truth and since "the truth is not in them" (meaning the non-JW's) then it is no different than cheating the deceived so it is really o.k. to be dishonest or untruthful to non-JW's. I know it sounds looney but that is what I've been reading over there. In ther words, the non-JW's are lost anyway so it doesn't matter if the JW's pull a fast one over on them. Organizations are made up of sinful people. Fortunatelly though most people from most churches do try to do right by their fellow (wo)man. Just look at the child sexual abuse that has recently come out among some (again I did not say all) of the Catholic cleargy. I attend a prayer and praise group on Monday evenings at the local Catholic church and those folks over there feel bad that the abuse happened but they praise God that their church is being cleansed of the sin that has come into it. That's just rwal life.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, David! And Susan and Denise, thank you also for your further posts. I think the real issue is not whether or not Adventists (or other purported Christians) do illegal things while others protect them. The real issue, I believe, is that there are many people with divided hearts. When people have divided hearts, they both act with and allow non-integrity.

Jesus repeatedly called people to have integrity and to be trustworthy. A house divided against itself will not stand, he said. James also wrote that a "double-minded man" should not think he will "receive anything from the Lord." (James 1:7)

I do believe that in a false religion, double-mindedness and divided hearts can perhaps hide more easily than they can in a community where people are committed to Jesus, but non-integrity exists even in those places. False religions, however, sometimes provide crazy rationales for defending divided hearts--such as the arguments that people must do the illegal things for tithe or tuition.

One of the things I've been aware of lately is that since knowing Jesus, I'm less confused about things than I used to be. I used to have a hard time deciding in faculty meetings, for example, how to treat certain offending students. I could understand both sides of the story, and I often felt confused. Now, I find that the moral issues are so much more clear. I think false religions produce people who have moral confusion because those religions teach that certain things are God's will (church school, for example), and whatever it takes, we have to do those things. The result, sometimes, is moral compromise in one area in order to accomplish the church "mandate" in another.

Truth has a way of clarifying confusing issues and exposing double-mindedness. I'm so thankful that God loves us enough to lead us to face our sin and then changes us from the inside!

Colleen
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, the term "safe to save" originated, I believe, with Graham Maxwell. (At least it is a hallmark of his teaching.) It is his way of dealing with the mess of the investigative judgmentóGod must examine us to be sure that sin will not rise again in us.

Maxwell teaches that the shed blood of Jesus was not necessary for salvation. God, he says, is a forgiving God, and he would have forgiven us even if Jesus hadn't died. Jesus shedding his blood didn't convince God to save us. He also teaches that God, who is forgiving and loving, would never torture or punish people with hell. People who refuse to accept him will, therefore, remove themselves from His presence and ultimately kill themselves by choosing not to be in the presence of life. The "lost" are not lost because God punishes sin. They are lost because they choose to die and be annihilated. God is a good God; he would never kill or hurt or punish people.

In other words, God is not completely sovereign. He is, according to Maxwellian teaching, loving and gracious, but justice is missing from God. Justice is ultimately meted out by our own choice.

Those in your study, James Jean, may well have some of these understandings of God in the background. What a wonderful thing you're doing in your study! You're right, the Bible will either draw people to Jesus, or it will drive them away. It all depends upon their desire for truth.

Colleen
Janet (Janet)
Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 10:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Colleen, that helped me a lot.
Janet
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sometimes, those who are warning others about the dangers of cults are misunderstood. Much like the woman in this story.

A successful young businessman was transferred from the big city location to the hills of a rural town away from anything he had been used to.

Of course, he had a fancy sports car which he decided one day to take out for a spin along the winding country roads. He pushed the small car to its limits and enjoyed the thrill of racing from turn to turn to feel the G-force as the tires barely held the car against the earth.

As he was approaching a particularly sharp turn, a woman in a pick-up truck came careening from the other direction, almost completely out of control. As she regained control of the truck and passed the young man in the sports car, she yelled out, "PIG!".

Not to be outdone, the young man managed to shout out, "COW!" as he entered the turn, raced around the curve and smashed the front end of his sports car into a huge 500-pound pig standing in the middle of the road.

Of course, the woman was attempting to help the young man. The man, taking her "comment" in the wrong way, simply yelled back before he understood the meaning of her statements.

Perhaps some of us are understood in this way, rather than being understood as truly loving others and looking out for the dangers along the way.

Steve
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the humorous side this morning. That helps me to start the day off right. I am on break now and soon will be in that 45 degree environment. Albertito accidentally hosed my leg down this morning and I am already chilled to the bone. It hurts to go from 75 degree weather one week and back to 45 the next. I had to scrape my windshield again this morning. Burrrrrr!

I think your story was a good analogy, and I am tired of apologizing every I use certain definitive words in my posts. I hope that everyone wants to share on my new thread about the seven unities, God bless you today as you all get up and going.

Janice
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Whale of a Tale

There was this Christian lady that had to do a lot of traveling for her business so she did a lot of flying. But flying made her nervous so she always took her Bible along with her to read and it helped relax her.

One time she was sitting next to a man. When he saw her pull out her Bible he gave a little chuckle and went back to what he was doing.

After awhile he turned to her and asked "You don't really believe all that stuff in there do you?"

The lady replied "Of course I do. It is the Bible."

He said "Well what about that guy that was swallowed by that whale?

She replied "Oh, Jonah. Yes, I believe that, it is in the Bible.

He asked "Well, how do you suppose he survived all that time inside the whale?

The lady said "Well I don't really know. I guess when I get to heaven I will ask him."

"What if he isn't in heaven?" the man asked sarcastically.

"Then you can ask him." replied the lady
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These two men were sitting next to each other as the airplain was flying. In front of them were two nuns. One of the men said to the other man, "Play along with me. I want to see how much I can annoy the nuns. Ask me real loudly so the nuns can hear where I am going and then just play along with me." So this is how it went: "Where are you going?" "Well, I don't really know where I want to go but I do know I want to be where there are NO Catholics. Catholics really get on my nerves and I want to be where there are no Catholics." "Then why don't you go to Ireland. I've heard it is real nice there, all beautiful and green. Real lovely." "No. There are A LOT of Catholics there. I told you I don't want to be where there are any Catholics." "Oh, I didn't think of that. Then why don't you go to Italy. I've heard it is very nice there and the food is really good." "NO! I told you, I don't want to be around Catholics. The Vatian is in Italy and that is where the Pope lives. That's just too Catholic for me. Help me think of somewhere else to go." "O.k., then how about the United States. I don't think anyone could find any fault with the United States." "N, the United States just won't do. Over there you can't tell a Catholic from a non-Catholic, they all get along and like each other. I will not go to he United States." By now the nuns were very irritated. Finilly one of the nuns just couldn't take the conversation going on in the seats behind her any longer and she turned around and said to the man, "Is it true you really want to go where there are no Catholics?""Yes, that is true." said the man at which the nun looked him stright in the eye and said to him, "Well, I guess you'll just have to go to hell then as I've heard there are no Catholics there."
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Three people each bought a new Cadillac car. One was a Catholic Priest, one a Baptist Minister the other a Jewish Rabbi.

The Catholic Priest decided that he would baptize his and sprinkled it with water, then he told the Baptist what he had none. The Baptist thought it was a good idea so he took his to the ocean rented a crane and baptized his in the ocean.

After they had do that they both went over to the Jewish Rabbi and told him what they had done. The Rabbi said, follow me, so they followed him into his garage where his car was. He then got a hack-saw and sawed off an inch from the tail pipe.

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