| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I'll find some choice quotes to share! It might take me until sometime next week, but I'll do it. There are some pretty amazing statements in those Amazing Facts Bible Studies! It's interesting to me that while, on one hand, the official PR is really shaping the Adventist profile to look evangelical, Amazing Facts (and perhaps other studies as well) is actively teaching Old Testament food laws as a necessary part of keeping one's self qualified for being the home of the Holy Spirit. Etc., Etc. I am so amazed and grateful that when we really live by the Holy Spirit, reality seems more real, truth seems more clear, and Jesus is real. The old confusion and fear and dissonance are gone. I can't even express what a difference Jesus has made in my life. I am just so very grateful. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I have an Anazing Facts book that I want to mail to you as soon as possible. In this book it sais in no uncertain words that Jesus was Michael the Archangel and Michael the Archangel came as human form as Jesus. The local SDA church has scores of these Amazing Facts books and brouchures in its literature rack and the minister has rows upon rows of this sort of written material on his shelves to give out. So on the one hand in the SDA worship service we get some really nice praise music and the physical changes from what I grew up with are present in that the ladies are wearing earrings, etc., on the other hand it seems that the behind the scenes doctrines are just as whacked out as they ever were and there is no plans to make ny official changes. Just an observation of mine. | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
I remember seeing the old amazing facts pamplets in my house when I was a child(at least I think they were amazing facts). Anyway, they gave me nightmares. Especially the one with the devil on the front. I think the title of that one was " Is the Devil in charge of Hell?" It seemed like they contained too much bad news and no good news of the Gospel. | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
I can tell you they still have scary, sensational covers. My husband has several different pamphlets around the house. Susan2 and Colleen, I would love it if you would share some of the choice pieces from the Amazing Facts on diet | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
On another forum, Adventist of Tomorrow, I recently posted the following: "It is indeed an insult to be told by the SDA hierarchy that the sole reason we left the "truth" was due to our lacking interpersonal skills. When a former member explains to Adventist apologists that is was due to theological considerations alone, they frequently insult you even further by saying, "I think you really never understoood or knew much about Adventism." With these numerous, arrogant insults, they are in efffect creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. Truly, they have and are hurting everyone spiritually, psychologically, and financially. Most Adventists don't even like each other--not to mention disliking and telling false stories about those that have jumped ship. Sadly, they are their own worst enemies. As is true with other cultic and abusive religions, the healing process takes at least two years after leaving Adventism (due to trauma involving anger, deception, regret, family stress, et cetera)." The thread discussion was in response to the SDA hierarchy apologizing for their church member's behavior in the current Adventist Review. They feel the loss of one-third to one-half of the members missing in many SDA churches. They completely ignore the fact that people can pray and study themselves out of Adventism. This arrogant stance shows disrespect to those that differ with them theologically. This is nothing new on their part--just another PR blitz. By the way, if you are lacking entertainment in your life, the following web page is a must-read: http://www.history-of-rock.com/richard.htm Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Ha! Dennis, I had to laugh. I have heard so many times, "Well, I think you just don't understand what Adventists teach". My in-laws and brother in-law are constantly telling me I just need to talk to someone that could explain it to me. This is indeed insulting as I was born in Adventism, attended SDA churches every week for 30 years and went to exclusively Adventist schools for 18 years with SDA Bible/Doctrinal classes all through grade school, high school, college, and grad school. I still consult some of my SDA text books and the works of EGW for apologetic reference. I've discussed some of the issues at great length with a couple of pastors. If I don't understand Adventism then I don't believe there are many at all that do. I know I left for entirely theological reasons. I know the Lord led me to study my way out (under His guidance and prompting). It absolutely infuriates me when I'm told I just need to talk to the right people and study some more, then I'll understand that Adventism is right.......and this comes from people that hardly ever read and when they do it's not the Bible.......I KNOW they don't understand the complexities of Adventism becasue they respond to my questions by saying things like, "Well, I don't claim to understand all that, but if you just talked to XXXX you'd see. He's really smart and if he says it, then it's true"...........just infuriating!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Dennis, I read some of that Adventist Review issue and felt the same way as you! Leaving Adventism by studying your way out was NOT an option. (For those of you feeling strong in Christ tonight, you can go to www.adventistreview.org and read many articles from the recent (Sept 4, I think) special edition targeting missing members). One observation concerning your post is that, at least in my life inside Adventism, I would say that many DO like each other. In fact, socially, I would never have had a reason to leave. I always felt loved by them and I was helped immensely by church members when I needed it. grace always, cindy | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Chris, I've had those comments you mention said to me also... And I DO know the doctrines, having also studied them for YEARS trying to make sense of them! And realizing finally that those unique "testing truths" just won't fit into the REALITY of JESUS' FINISHED WORK and ULTIMATE REST for us... Although I've experienced some bad times in the past years, I am ever grateful and feel blessed to see the Glory of the New Covenant clearly...JESUS, without that veil between us. And He is worth it all. grace always, cindy | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
You know, sometimes listening to you all makes me wonder if B has an original thought or word out of his mouth. Almost word for word (as has been the case with other things), he has said to me the exact same things Dennis mentions: not understanding the doctrines enough, people leave because they fall away from God or because they have disagreements with people, but never because they find something different in the Bible or that they actually have a better relationship with Christ after they leave. Do they teach them to recite these things from birth? When B finally commented about Paulsen's article, all he said was" just because someone believes some errors doesn't mean I have to disassociate with the religion". Now, if I said that about my church, he would crawl all over it. B has also said his church is very "Godly" and "show God's love" to each other. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Melissa, I have always wondered the same thing{well for 5 years anyway). It's like there must be some kind of format somewhere to hear all of them speak so; in cinc. Carol | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Is that not a sign for brainwashing. It is the same for most of us we learn just the right little phrases to say. How could we all have the same answer if it were not. Well I used to say the same things also. Terry | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Initially, I thought the word "brainwash" was a little strong. Afterall, we had choices in the matter--we just chose to be spoonfed rather than be like the Berean's and check things out for ourselves. The term "brainwash" seems to relieve us of responsibility. However, when I went to the dictionary and looked up the defnition of "brainwash," I saw that it says, "to alter the convictions, beliefs, etc. of by systematic indoctrination." I have to concede that that is exactly what occurred. Between evangelistic crusades, Revelation Seminars, Sabbath School, church school religion classes, prayer meeting (which wasn't really about prayer), sermons, denominational publications, the Spirit of Prophecy etc. etc. how could we not pick up the language? This does not even count the informal conversations that reinforce all of the above mediums. One of the things that I have heard boasted about is the fact that you can go to any SDA church in the world on a given Sabbath, and they'll be studying the same thing. That isn't unity. That is control of the highest order and in the end, it equates to brainwashing. Doug | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Melissa and Carol, The belief instilled (either from birth or later introduced in "evangelistic" meetings) is that Adventism constitutes the final true church...the "remnant"... "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus". Revelation 12:17; NIV. (Read that: Keeping the 'Ten Commandments', particularly the fourth one to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." And, read the 'testimony of Jesus' as Ellen Whites' prophetic words from God. She is actually called "The Spirit of Prophecy" (so as to conform to Revelation 19:10 which says: "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy"). Ellen White herself even went beyond calling herself a "prophet"...saying she was "the Lord's messenger"; ("my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies...") Although most now broaden this "testimony of Jesus" to mean all of Jesus' work for us, the official doctrine still maintains EGW as the true 'last-day' prophet... which is: "one of the identifying marks of the remnant church"... (along with believing that Saturday observance is still binding for the Christian). And so...... How could you possibly study your way OUT of this final truth? Yes, they admit, there ARE sincere Christians in other churches who are "living up to the truth as far as they know"... But... When the 'testing truth' of the Sabbath is presented to them, those who are 'true' followers of Christ will accept it. And those who don't will face the plagues and wrath of God in that final 'time of trouble'.... (see Revelation 18). This is the crux of it all, I think. It is a strong deception, taking away the SUPREMACY of JESUS...the FULLNESS in Christ we have already been given! Living by His Spirit, "remembering" Jesus always, we can rest in the confidence He gives us as being our final 'Truth'...He is ENOUGH for salvation, for motivation, for guidance. Belonging to Jesus, we have everything... (see the wonderful words Paul wrote in Colossians!) grace always, cindy | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Doug, I am a true blue Lutheran and anyone can go to any Lutheran church in the world on any given day and will get the same litany. The sermons and the format of the service are up to the pastor and the congreation but let's say it is Penticost Sunday. The readings will be the same. I kind of like that because if I am in the Long Beach area over the weekend I like to take in the service over at St. Timothy's in Lakewood and I know certain parts are the same as if I was attending the church that I attend here at home. I am a creature of habit, of routine and that aspect of the service is comforting to me. | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Terry and Doug, I'm always amazed that so many go along with it all... not caring to study and learn more about the sufficiency of Christ alone in a Christian's life. I often felt very much in the minority in questioning the insanity of what was presented in those evangelistic meetings (is that an Elijah syndrome or what!?) :-) I was told: not to worry about it so much...just go along with it...we didn't really teach such legalism....no one really cares about the investigative judgement, Ellen White, jewelry, specific Sabbath observances, etc., etc...So just let the Evangelist present it, get baptisms, and then we, as a local church will just love the converts into our fellowship.... Well, I'm very grateful to be done with such 'cognitive dissonance'... to be free in Christ alone...having seen Jesus as my complete answer. grace always, cindy | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Cindy, Now that your SDA "friends" are aware that you left the "truth," are they still the same to you, socially? What about SDA relatives? The fact remains,that once you leave Adventism, your closest SDA friends and colleagues abruptly alter or terminate the friendship. Friendship does NOT continue on the same level. This fact reveals that they are not really true friends to each other. Without the commonality of Adventism, they do not feel comfortable around you as they once did. After all, you are a traitor: you might help formulate the imminent "death decree" against them. Furthermore, they are most paranoid that you will tell others the inside story of Adventism. They are thoroughly convinced that your new "former" status will harm them in some way. Adventists are highly judgmental, and they well know that their Adventist friends think the same way. This creates distrust amongst them. This certainly is not a characteristic that friendships thrive upon through all kinds of ups and downs. For example, Adventists do not usually invite non-Adventists to their home for a meal on Sabbath. The SDA social network is extremely fragile. Many former Adventists never cease to be amazed how so-called "close SDA friends" can abruptly ditch you without further communication. Even family members are notorious for giving you the "silent treatment." The complicated, cultic grip of Adventism permeates every sphere of life. What a miracle of God's grace to be finally free in Christ! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Dennis, Perhaps that may be my experience at some time in the future; right now it isn't. We each have different life stories and I can appreciate yours. I know there are different types of SDA members with varying degrees of cultic thinking. Although I do understand the 'silent treatment' when I talk to relatives about attending non-Adventist churches, I just can't lump all Adventists into your analysis and feel that negatively about them personally. God's grace may be opening their eyes further to His invitation to the on-going, 24/7 Rest completed and offered in Jesus. I know God's timing is best... and He has been patient with me. grace always, cindy ps... Since I no longer live anywhere near my former friends, (and have not kept in contact much...my fault, not theirs) most are not aware of my complete departure from Adventism in thought and action. Having not been in an Adventist church for nearly 3 years, technically I'm still "on the books"... I've not had my name dropped yet because other considerations in my family have been dealt with first. Now lately, it's been my own procrastination in writing that 'perfect' letter ....:-) So, of course, this may color my perceptions also. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Doug, I would just like to make a statement about the one you made: One of the things that I have heard boasted about is the fact that you can go to any SDA church in the world on a given Sabbath, and they'll be studying the same thing. This same remark was made to me by a good Catholic friend. Isn't that interesting that they should have the same thoughts and actions as the Catholics. Good talking to you again, Carol | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Melissa, your coments above are interesting. I also have ben told that I am not a SDA because I fail to understand THE TRUTH. Well, I think I sure have a better understaning of the truth away from the SDA church than within it. Having been raised SDA I also think I have a fairly good understanding of SDA'ism. I have been told that if I only could understand the Adventist truth then of course, I would see that it is the truth and would therefore embrase it. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the light. All who come unto me shall have life and have it more abundentally". Sadly, the SDA's I know seem to get into personal charactor attacks when they hear that text and just seem to forget the discussion was on Christianity. // Have any of you gone through the ALPHA series? I did once several years ago and it is starting back up in my community this evening. I want to go through the series again. It's a good refresher course on the basic tenents of Christianity. // Do any of you remember Mission Spotlight? Now, that's a trippy part of the service. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I just went to the Adventist Review webpage to try to find the article you all mentioned above. Instead I found an article tirtled, "Moses Goes Back To Church". I made it through the first sentence which said, "Do you really want to go back to church and have to deal with all those hypocrites, Pharassies and vegetarians? You could just attend a Greenpeace rally and find the same thing". I stopped reading at this point because of several reasons: 1:I frankly think most SDA plubications are very poor quality in their content. By this I mean that there is not much to challange the intellect. They are not very deep intellectually, if you know what I mean. And, 2: I hought, "Yeah, and a Greenpeace ralley would probably be a lot more fun." As would hanging with the DeadHeads out on their commune, who also happen to be mostly vegetarians. However, I don't think most DeadHeands are hyproictes because they are stoners to the max and sure are not hypricital about it Whatever, just some Sunday night rambeliung on my part. |
