| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
This discussion hits really close to home in several different ways right now. I so completely understand the frsutration and even anger of hearing that former Adventists leave for various social or emotional reasons. They confidently believe that if anyone studied the Bible, they'd become Adventists, not leave Adventism. Indeed, Adventism IS brainswashing in exactly the sense Doug read in the dictionary. I also understand the drifting away of friends and family. Some of the relationships take longer to drift away than others, but they have nearly all drifted in one way or another. Some people just quite sending Christmas letters. And one, whom I considered a good friend, had (somewhat shocked) conversations with me periodically for about three years after we left. Those conversations increasingly felt limited; we could never really talk about anything significant in my life because she didn't want to hear it. After my dad died, however, our conversations eventually stopped altogether. This particular friend attended my dad's funeral, which was distinctly not Adventist. It contained a gospel appeal and both music and words affirming his presence with the Lord. This particular friend called me some weeks later with a couple of noticable reactions. One was about how much our older son had matured and grown in his Christianity. The other was that she hadn't realized how really far from Adventism we had gone. By four months after my dad's death, this person told me that under other circumstances she would be involving me in a significant life event in her family, including a celebratory luncheon in honor of this event. "But," she said with a smile in her voice, "I can't eat with you." I have not heard from her since, in spite of some efforts on my part to reach out. I miss her. My husband also had a close family member ask him if he was now going to shoot him/her when the time of trouble came. Those who really know where we stand have pretty much all dropped away after an initial flurry of curiosity. But God is really faithful to bring brothers and sisters in Christ into our lives. We still are amazed at how much deep-level care and support we feel from other believers who haven't known us nearly as long as our SDA friends and family, yet they feel closer and more dependable than most of the SDA's. The metaphor of the body of Christ is not merely metaphor. It is real. We really are incomplete without belonging to the body, and the body really is only those who are born again in Christ. I'm so thankful to God for his faithfulness and comfort. Colleen | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Colleen, I found this quote from you interesting: "she hadn't realized how really far from Adventism we had gone. " I have noticed a little bit of this phenomena as well. Some SDAs seem to get it right away that you aren't Adventist in your belief system anymore. These seem to be the ones that distance themselves the most quickly. Others, seem to be under the delusion that you still must be basically Adventist in your belief system (after all how could any reasonable person reject "truth"), but that you are a bit wayward right now in that you seem to think it's okay to attend some other churchs' services. They are convinced that you believe the "Sabbath Truth" deep down, but are being a bit rebellious right now or perhaps just a bit careless. They continue to use Adventist terminology when talking to you and assume common beliefs such as soul sleep, annialationism, the legitimacy of EGW, avoidance of unclean foods, etc. It is only after it starts dawning on them that you left becasue of theological differences that encompass the whole entire belief system that they begin to distance themselves. It's sort of an odd phenomena......in a couple of cases I haven't even realized that the friend or family member didn't get it until a particular conversation came up that highlighted the real differences....I've just had this come up with one of my SDA sisters....I thought I had made it plain where I was at apiritually, but studying their way out and expereincing a deeper realationship with Christ seems to be so far beyond her comprehension or experiece that she can't quite grip the concept. Chris | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Ugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Big Sigh!!!!!!!!!! I can see that little booklet Leigh with the devil looking all crazy with his red face and the one about the state of the dead. Lord, I'm glad to be with a normal body of believers! The biggest thing we obsess over is getting people to come down the isle at the altar call! How many altar calls did we even see in the SDA church? None unless it was some conference that we brought non-SDA's to like a Revelation Seminar because week to week the same boring, mindless people sat in the same pews and no one needed an altar call (or so they thought) I don't remember a single baptism in 4 years of Academy (which by the way is the weirdest thing I have ever heard of-sending your 14 year old off, just off to another state to strangers you've never met) and lots of those kids weren't SDA so shouldn't they have tried to save them? So they blame you leaving on understanding, or a lack of, well who in the world can understand that when Isaiah 65 says there will be people having babies and living to be old as trees and people dying that this is all "poetic, intended for the audience of Isaiah's time"???? If they can't explain it, it's poetic. No wonder I made a D in Bible 101. I cannot tell you enough how incredibly thankful I am to God to have my kids in a normal church with people who love the Lord who will tell you they don't have it all figured out and are just happy anyways! Maybe we will always be somewhat warped from this "religion" but it seems it gets better everyday and more distant. I feel better now, love yall! XXOO Thanks for the couch. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, I so understand. The boarding school phenomenon is one I've also pondered a lot. The truth is, many kids I taught at boarding school really liked it there. My husband said he wanted to go to boarding school instead of day academy in order to get away fromj chronic family problems. I have no illusions about Adventists having more unhealth in their families than do non-believers, but I do think Adventists have a serious problem with hidden (emphasis on hidden) family problems including serious forms of abuse. (As I've mentioned before, a local worker's comp. nurse I know locally--she's Adventist--has also been trained to do rape hotline couseling. She gave me a copy of the pages from the local county handbook for risk indicators for various form of sexual abuse. It specifically lists profiles for people at risk for incest. The list includes [I can't remember each specific--this is not complete] being born in a Caribbean country, being part of a fundamental, conservative denomination, or being Seventh-day Adventist. Adventists were specifically listed separately as a high-risk group.) Leaving home is no doubt a relief for many kids; I know it was for some of my students. At the same time, that fact underscores the deeper problem: many Adventist parents do not own their own responsibility to protect and nurture their own children as parents should do. Adventism and its intrinsic deception allows people to rationalize their own family pathology. Instead of calling people to accountability, it provides avenues for denial and refusing to "know". (Again, I know that this sort of phenomenon is not limited to Adventists. I just know it is MUCH more prevalent in Adventism than most Adventists want to admit.) I am so thankful for the word of God and for Jesus and his relentless pursuit of us and his drawing us to know and live in truth. Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Colleen, Well, it's just plain weird. I have to say, I was one of those that wanted to go away and liked being away...so much that I never went back home. I moved out on my own with another dorm-mate on graduation day and then got married 3 months later at 17. What an idiot! Definately some avoidance issues there. Thank God I wasn't raped or molested or anything else but I knew kids in the schools that were sleeping with teachers. Adventism is such an unhealthy lifestyle all around. If they could only realize that their health message is only flesh deep and people need their souls healthy much more than their perishing flesh. God truly does work it all out for good, praise His holy Name. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
oh oh....I remember mission spotlight! It always seemed extremely hypocritical to me, considering that the local church leadership had been known to, literally, hurry down the sidewalk to meet a black guy headed toward the church. Oh no, not to invite him in....to give him directions to the "other church". And then there was the day the lady was standing up front talking about her visit to some caribbean island and how shocked she was that the people there were "n------". I kid you not! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sylvia and I are completely convinced that the SDA schools we sent our daughters to, had far more problems (notably with student-teacher sexual liasons) than the local public school system. Sadly, one such SDA teacher was "redemptively transferred" to another State where he eventually received one of the highest awards from the North American Division Education Department. Several SDA teachers who taught our kids were nothing less than sexual predators. One of these deviant teachers, we later found out, was actually dismissed from the local public school system. Having sent our children to both school systems, we feel qualified to make an objective comparison. The pain of regret, for sending our kids to an SDA school, is most intense and heartbreaking. Yes, there were good SDA teachers as well, but with several sexually-deviant ones, year after year, it made the entire school a dangerous place for young people. The current Adventist Review Online is reporting a sexual scandal in Finland. The Finnish Federal Police are investigating the SDA Junior College there. Adventist leaders claim they are fully cooperating with the investigation. The sexual abuse in SDA educational centers is so prevalent that the GC President, Dr. Jan Paulsen, addressed the issue in his remarks to SDA leaders recently. Oh yes, remember how proud the SDA Church used to be of the Pitcairn Islands? Now the British law enforcement officials are conducting investigations and court trials of "respected" SDA Pitcairn Islanders for longtime sexual abuse. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
If an sda teacher started teaching that the Sabbath is NOT the seal of God and that keeping Sunday is NOT the mark of the beast, they would be fired in a heartbeat. But, if they have an affair or molest a minor , they are just moved around and everything is kept quiet. I think it goes back to the remark that egw made about the 4th commandment being the commandment with the "halo". "As long as they are keeping the sabbath." I guess the reputation of the church is more important than the mental, physical and emotional health of the victim, AND more important that the probable future abuse of other victims. I had heard of things going on at the academy that I went to. At least 2 of the faculty members had inappropriate relationships with students. It makes me sick. | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
B went away to academy and he too was glad to get away from home. I told him it was not normal to send your kids away from home when they needed their parents the most. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but I always thought that was one of the more obvious "cultic" signs ... because parents in cults hand their kids over to the cult leadership to indoctrinate them correctly and really parents get little say in their rearing. Though SDA seems to let parents "have" them until high school, I had all kinds of bells and sirens going off in my brain when I found out about these boarding high schools. If it's anything like college, it seems the only ones around might be peers .... I'm not sure how the dorms are run, but I know in college we had a dorm mother and an upper classman kindof as a floor assistant, but that seems like a lot of responsibility for a high school kid. How does the supervision work and what kind of adult support system is available? My ignorance is showing again.... | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Well, our dorm "mother" or whatever you want to call her was never there, ever. Everyone hated her, she was a single, fat, unhappy, miserable person who I never saw except for when she would check to see of we had fingernail polish on or bust into our rooms to see if we had a radio or something else unthinkable like pepporoni on our pizza. (one time we hid the pizza in the closet until she did lights out check and when she left--less than 5 minutes--it was covered in ants!) My senior year she found a boyfriend, off campus and not SDA, she would stay out all the time and once she came in with a big hickey! (lol) They fired her right after that. We got ourselves up, did our own laundry, walked to work (4 hours a day-everyone had to work) I had to be there at 6 or 6:30, and walk in the dark. I worked at a nursing home. Once my roomate and I were sick, deathly sick, with 103 and 104 fevers for over a week and they never took us to the Dr. Just brought us food 3 x a day and left us there, sick as dogs. Honestly, I don't know what we had but we literally could not stand up, we crawled to the bathroom. The "nurse" checked on us every morning to see if we were still breathing, that's about it. I lost about 12 pounds on that one. Other than that...we were sneaking out of the dorm, (got caught once and suspended for 3 weeks) everyone was sleeping with their boyfriend, one girl in the dorm was pregnant and they never said anything to her (she wore big jackets, even in the Spring) a few girls were on drugs, lots of boys were into dungeons and dragons and actually burned down the Ad building-to the ground to get to their next level.................OH MY I should hush, We liked it because we didn't know any better, we had little supervision, we were like in college, except too young to be that independent. Too young to be able to make those kind of decisions that shape your whole life, ya know? | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
My experience of four years at Sunnydale Academy was a bit different. I thought there was quite a lot of supervision.....to the point that it often felt like prison. Like Sabra I had to be to work by 7:00 a.m. in the morning (worked in an oxygen tent factory 4 hours per day), then attended classes all afternoon, then dinner in the cafe, then recreation time in the gym or ball field, then mandatory study hall (locked in your room from 8-10 p.m.....required permission to go down the hall to the bathroom), then mandatory lights out at 10 p.m. There really wasn't much time that could be considered "free time". Even the time you did have to yourself in the dorm room was highly regulated since you couldn't have any radios, tape players, and a long list of other contraband. It was all highly regimented and I really hated it, but I also must admit it was better than than the alternative (my highly dysfunctional home life). Truth be known, as much as I hated it, I did everything I could to stay and get the bill paid because I didn't want to go home. Hey, anyone remember "free-labor" or being on "social"???? | ||
| Greg_Watkins (Greg_Watkins) |
It seems to me some have more to be angry about than others for sure. I can't say I've really had as much to be angry about, not at least in the sense of some of the stories being told here. By the way this is my first posting here and mostly in this thread just because its the one going at the moment. I never went to any SDA schools. Only Public and a Catholic high school. My mom probably got a lot of heat about that, but then she was a very liberal adventist. As far as she was concerned the education at the Catholic school was clearly better than the Adventist one. I'm sure in her mind the Adventist school was never even an option. In any case some of the teachers whent to our church and one I know for sure had an extreamly screwed up life. Not a good impression for sure. Some of my teachers from the catholic brotheren were a little wierd too but I never saw anything or had anything happen to me of concern... rather I excelled in my classes because they were so devoted. I'm sure there are many equally devoted Adventist teachers out there. Infact the first time I really got angry at the church was when I was turned away from an Adventist University. Didn't realise it was a blessing at the time. After I left home and moved away I actually became more Adventist than before. You could say I was becoming a historical Adventist, to my mom's dismay. I got married and served oversees for 3 years as a missionary in an extreamely remote area. The closest Adventist Church was over 2000 miles away seperated by mountains and deserts. It was a lonely time but it gave us a very purposefull existence.. we felt important being on the frontier. Returning home was such a shock. We had grown but everybody had stayed the same. We felt empty alot of the time and couldn't wait to get back to the mission field. Conference leadership had agreed that it would be important for me to finish my bachelors degree before returning so that I could obtain a better status in the field. I only required one year. And it was to be arranged at one of the Adventist Universities so I could also study some Theology. We were shocked in the end when they wrote us a $2000 check and said go to a public school. After we had sacrificed so much and were going right back into the field to a place no body else wanted to go for several more years to come. One has to realise that we were not church workers, rather we were volunteers. They paid for our basic needs but that was it. I had heard too many sermons to count about having enough faith to be able to afford going to adventist schools. And when it came their turn... we can't afford it... go to public school. You think that check was given to us just like that? No, there was a condition to repay it by coming back to the mission field.. what gumtion. Anyway that is my backwards story about how I got angry at the church for not going to their schools. Ironic, no? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Welcome Greg, Great to have you here! We just can't see how things are working out for our good at the time but God was surely working in your life! I remember being a little upset when my mom said she couldn't send me to Southern College, it's Adventist University now I think. Boy was that a blessing! Forced me to the big world of public school and a little further on my journey. What are you doing now in terms of work and church? Christ, I did get social once--how embarrassing! Not familiar with free labor though. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
sorry Chris, didn't mean to call you Christ, but I couldn't have called you anything better. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Welcome Greg, I hope you will find this to be a place of healing and acceptance. I too attended non-Adventist schools. I only went to one year of SDA church shool in the 3rd grade. Even at that young age, it was obvious to me that the education was substandard. There were approximately 30 students packed into a two room schoolhouse. The sixth graders and up attended class in one room, and the younger kids attended class in the other. The school was taught by a husband and wife team. I have heard the oft repeated quote, "the worst Adventist education is better than the best public school education," and just do not understand how anyone could make such a patently ignorant statement. I have seen some atrocious SDA schools. In fact, most of them have struggled just to keep their heads above water financially and academically. I would NEVER subject my kids to anything like that. It appears as though guilt and obligation are the primary motives behind why people send their kids to these "institutions." I suspect that the quality of education improves when you reach the academy or University level, but by that point, much of the damage has been done. It is also interesting to me that there is little attempt to use education as an outreach tool. In the area where I live, the SDA school is in a rural environment, not even accessible to all the people in the SDA commuity, let alone in the community at-large. If the schools have so much to offer, why not move it to a central location and target kids of all faiths (or lack therof). I suspect that there is not great universal appeal because of the proliferation of EGW indoctrination. Most intelligent people would run as fast as they can from this type of heresy. Doug | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
Well, it seems that the article in the Review about missing members is just the tip of the iceberg. I just saw a brand new poster for 'Reconnecting Ministries' and a website at www.creativeministries.org Turns out there are going to be 'gathering places' to plot strategy and gather resources to reach out to missing members. Campus Hill church and Hyveth Williams is the place for the Pacific Union Division. So, they're coming to take me away! Hah,hah, ho-ho, hee-hee, to the funny farm where all is happy and gay!......  | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Welcome Greg, Please do tell us whatever part of your story you wish. Some of these comments about abuse are hitting a little close to the world I am observing. I am currently aware of major incidents involving several of the ìworks of the fleshî in a couple of SDA churches. I cannot comment on many specifics except to say these things:
Certainly, these types of incidents occur in almost all denominations. However, I have some sense that these things are at least slightly more prevalent in the SDA church than the average experience. I hear a constant stream of stories about this from many Adventists. It suggests an endemic presence attributable to the cultural environment of the group. I have my theories, but they are not yet well developed. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I attended an SDA academy for years and was accused of being a drug dealer by my Bible teacher...who used to scare the pants off of us with backmasking tapes, etc. It was a day academy and me and a friend had gone to the store for candy prior to school and as I was walking up to the building, I split the candy with him (It was Spree's of all things!)and handed it to him. Well, apparantly he took some medication he found in his mother's medicine cabinet and passed out in his first period class. An eager informant was more than happy to tell them he had seen me make a drug deal with this person before school...(yeah right, out in the open for all to see!)and the Bible teacher made the announcement in Bible class (a class my brother happened to be sitting in) that a major drug dealer had been apprehended and left no doubt as to who it was. I had never touched a drug. But I was dating a older boy who smoked and drank...therefore I was tainted by association. The boy came to and confessedd where he got the pill and I was cleared but my reputation was seriously smeared. My parents pulled me out and sent me to public high school, where I actually saw kids carrying their bibles to school of their own free will! Never saw that in SDA land. Some of the wildest kids I ever knew went to SDA academies. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
This reminnisoin has been interesting to me. I attended sda schools in grades 3,4,5,11 and several months of 12. My 4th grade teacher had to be the most wonderful lady and teacher there has ever been. She was fully credentialed and really knew how to teach. She passed away several years ago, a wonderful lady. Then came 5th grade when i had probably the most inept teacher there ever has been. She had never even gone to college and the only reason she got the job teaching in the sda school is because she was what I call a Super Adventist. She spent very little time on any other topic except Indroctination Class where she had these huge posters of what was to depict the last days and we had to look at these posters and she would scare the willies out of us about what was going to happen to us for being true to the Sabbath. But, we had better not take the easy way out and forsake the Sabbath because what was in store for us then would even be worse than if we stayed true to the Sabbath. My best friend in my neighborhood had non-SDA parents and her dad smoked cigerettes and drank beer. This teacher had the gall to telephone my parents and tell my dad she didn't want me playing with this girl after school because her family was a bad influence on me. My dad sure did tell her off. He told her to stay out of our families business, her job was to teach his little girl and his job was as a parent and he frankly liked my friends family so she could butt out. Another time this same teacher held up a copy of The Plain Truth Magazine, the magazine written by Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God and asked us kids to raise our hands if any of our parents got that magazine. Of course, my hand popped right up along with one other kid, a fellow who I always thought was real nice and so was his family. Then she dismissed the entire class to recess except me and the other kid. She spent our entire recess time telling us that The Plain Truth Magazine was of satan and even though the publishers of the magazine had the truth of the Sabbath they were of satan and at home we were to never open that magazine and read any of it. She went on to acknowledge that she realized we were children and therefore couldn't tell our parents what they were allowed to have in the house to read but we needed to know our parents were being influenced by satan and we were to leave those magazines alone. I'd never looked at one before but after that I read every issue because I wanted to find out for myself what was so bad about it. Again I told my parents what my teacher did mostly because I was angry that I had to miss recess to hear her ranting and again my dad had to call this witch up and tell her to butt out and the money that he was paying for me to go to school there included that I get my recesses. Fortunatelly my family moved way far out into the country the summer after 5th grade and I got to go to a small, rural K-8th school. Then in 11th grade I had numerous cousins who were away at boarding schools or had been so I asked my parents if I could go to Monterey Bay Academy. I went only that year. I didn't much like it. I liked my little hick country school better. But, in 12th grade i started back at the SDA school as I found a ride with some country folks who went into the city every day and I could be dropped off at school. Then one day the principal said my dress was an inch or two too short and I would have to go home to change. It wasn't too short, it was just right. I told him I dudn't have a house key and wouldn't be able to get in to change. He had the custodian take me home anyway and of course the house was locked and I couldn't get in so the custodian just left me sat home and he went back to work. So I was stuck way far out in the country all along all day until my parents got home and I told them what had happened at which point they told me I didn't have to put up with that crap anymore and the next morning we went in to the school and my parents disenrolled me and I got to go back to my hick school. BTY, the first time I'd ever seen an ouwija board was in the girls dorm at MBA> But, in all fairness, I did once have a crummy experience at the public school with the vice-principal. I was taking swimming for p.e. my senior year and had bought a new swimming suit. Remember now this is at public school. Anyway, there was a girl who was in my class who was very snooty and for some reason she had bought a swimming suit just like mine. Sadly her suit got stollen. Then I went to p.e. wearing mine which was just like her stolen suit. She ran to the vice-principal who was best friends with her dad and the vice-principal kept my in his office until after school insisting I repent of the theft and give her back her swimming suit which of course I wouldn't do. I kept telling him i wanted my mother to come to the school and to strighten this out with him. Finilly I guess he wanted to get home as he let me call my mom and after she got off work she came and gave that vice-principal an earfull. I only point this out to let you know weather SDA or anything else we are all human and prone to being asses. Just two years ago at the local high school where my children were going one of their best friends got trapped in the school office for many hours and the local police were even called out to detaine him. It was an unanounced locker search day. This wonderful friend of my children has diabetis and it is very suvere and he has had it since he was only two years old. The school people were going through his bookbag and found his kit in which he had six viles of insolin as well as six surenges as well as all the numbers to call in case he is experencing an emergency. So, the school and the local cops wanted to get him in trouble for having durgs and drug pharanallia in his bag. He finilly asked if he could usae the restroom and then in the restroom called his dad on his cell phone who promptly left work and came to the school and told everyone, school officials as well as the cops that the zero tollerance about drugh does not apply to diabetics who have to have their medicine available all the time. He finilly had to tell them to leave his kid alone or he'd go to the media and to an attorney and then they let the boy go. Well, I wi;ll add part two of this later. But, honesatly there are jerks in every rhelm of job situtations, SDA schools and other instatutions of learnung as well. | ||
| Leigh (Leigh) |
Several days ago Cindy mentioned the issue of the Review that is trying to get all the formers to come back. ( I actually am a "closet" former. I still attend Sabbath school with my children.)I got my copy in the mail today. One of the pages has a top 10 list of reasons to spend sabbath mornings in church. The number one reason is and I quote: "Christ is looking for people who are serious about living their faith. This is one time of the week when your Best Friend has your undivided attention." I'm sorry, but my Best Friend Jesus has my undivided attention everytime I come to him in prayer, no matter what day it is. Learning to rest completely in Jesus 24/7, Leigh |
