| Author |
Message |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 7:08 pm: |     |
Can we become UNREBORN? Truly, Arminianism is responsible for creating this strange, illogical word. Several months ago, while dialoguing with a well-known SDA apologist, I got him so confused that at one point he told me he was SAVED. I then told him that the only way he could honestly say that, would be for him to renounce Ellen White and the investigative judgment. Otherwise, it would be a most paradoxical statement. Predictably, he was unwilling to do that.
The mental gymnastics that Adventist apologists choose to go through is most appalling. They become noticeably uncomfortable when eternal security enters the conversation. Also, it is stunningly sad to read the various posts on a liberal SDA website that I often visit. Many of these educated, upscale Adventists question and/or disbelieve the very foundational truths of the Christian faith.
Several months ago, the wife of a SDA college professor confided to us that her husband was an Adventist primarily to have a teaching position. This professor's wife no longer attends the SDA church. She claims they don't miss her. They keep Ellen White's books securely tucked away in their basement storage room. As is commonplace, however, they stop short of calling Ellen White a false prophet. Thus, for reasons not easy to understand, they continue to cling to Ellen's apron strings.
Speaking of eternal security, Charles Stanley says in his book, ETERNAL SECURITY, that "If falling from grace indicated the loss of salvation, why is there no mention of hell? The only threat Paul makes is a return to the 'yoke of slavery.' As bad as that might be, the threat of hell would certainly carry a great deal more incentive than the possibility of a lifetime of law keeping. Besides, the Jews in Paul's audience were used to living under the law."
"Jesus message was simple. Eternal life is found through faith and faith alone. Both heaven and hell will be full of men and women who have committed every imaginable evil. The difference is not in the severity of their sin, or in the number of their offenses, but in their response to the offer of the Savior" (Ibid., p. 71).
Dennis J. Fischer |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 9:18 pm: | |
Questions the foundational truths of Christianity?
Dennis, you're being too kind. One of them is a closet atheist who is still teaching a SDA youth sabbath school class. Of course, he's quick to add that he isn't teaching them what he puts on the forum. Talk about cognitive dissonance and dishonesty! |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 8:20 am: | |
B actually says (in response to the issue of being a "child of God") that you can "divorce" your family. I said but my kids will always be my kids, he said not if the child chooses not to be. How logical is that?
Why is it so important that people think they can "lose" their salvation anyway? Is it merely to bind people to their version of law-keeping (keeping people in line)? If you wanted to pick a more "correct" term, it seems they are saying you can give your salvation away, when you pin-point them down. That is far different than saying at some illusive point on the slippery slope of life you move from saved to unsaved and never really know when you're what. B denies the latter statement, but absolutely clings to the idea you can give a gift back. He claims it is not a "one slip and you're out" theology.
Either way, he calls it "assurance" as long as you understand it can be "lost". |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
The fact is, the SDA system has taught that we would be judged for salvation on "the general tendency" of our lives. I was taught that growing up and was told Sister White said so, but since I don't have a reference, I won't pin it on her but on the SDA system I grew up in. What I can "pin" on her is her teaching in the latter part of the GC that we will be judged to se if we are worthy of Heaven on every unconfessed or forgotten sin, every idle moment, every wasted opportunity, etc. You see, that is why it's so important for SDA to claim that you can lose your salvation, or more precisely that you can never really know if your saved or not in the first place, because your works have not yet been judged to determine if you're worthy of salvation. If Christians can know now that they are saved, and thoroughly saved eternally by the grace of Christ alone, then the whole idea of an investigative judgement to see if we're "safe to save" (or worthy to be saved based on our works) must be thrown out. And if the IJ is thrown out then EGW has to be thrown out and must be a false prophet. And if EGW is a false prophet the whole SDA system falls. It is VITALLY important that SDAs maintain a radical stance on never thinking or feeling that you're saved. There whole system depends upon it.
Chris |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 12:47 pm: | |
Your are right, Chris. As I've thought through Adventist theology, I've discovered that the main issues are all interconnected in hidden-to-the-public ways. It is vitally important that a person hold onto all of them, or, as they say in tones of warning to the faithful, they all will crumble.
I've come to realize that it's true; the minute a person searches Scripture and discovers the truth about one Adventist doctrine, the rest are also doomed sooner or later. They all depend upon each other, and they all link a person to Ellen. The reason those liberal Adventists can't call her a false prophet is just as you described above, Dennis--they have no more Adventism in which to hide.
If Ellen is a false prophet, all Adventism fails. If she is merely "not a prophet", Adventism can survive, and liberal members can stay and create their own beliefs. The important bottom line for Adventism is not salvation or Jesus or truth--its belonging to the group. (Individauls may think differently--in fact, many do--but Adventism istelf supports belonging at any cost.)
Praise God for truth!
Colleen |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 7:02 am: | |
Colleen, what you wrote above concerning EGW has been my thinking also.
If Ellen White is not denounced as a FALSE PROPHET (but is instead still regarded as a visionary, spiritual leader--albeit mistaken in thinking of herself as one speaking for God), liberal SDA's can remain loyal to the "community consciousness" and create their own beliefs...discarding what they want of EGW's most ridiculous (or legalistic, or cultic) statements and yet still cling to the cultural aspects of belonging to the group.
Either she was a "messenger of the Lord" receiving her visions directly from God--as she claimed!!!--or else she was deceived, and/or lying and deceiving others...getting her "guidance" from 'someone' else, one described in Scriptures as able to appear as "an angel of light".
I feel she obviously had a strong 'power' guiding her. The question is whether or not it was JESUS, in whom there is NO darkness or confusion... only joy and light and peace.
grace always,
cindy |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 8:58 am: | |
Colleen and Cindy, you both make excellent points. I don't know if either of you have read Desmond Ford's book "Daniel 8:14" (the Glacier View manuscript) or not, but I find it almost unreadable. Not so much because it's scholarly and highly technical, but becasue it strives so hard to preserve EGW as a valuable source of pastoral advice all the while admitting that some of the things she claimed to see in vision are untrue. I know Ford is something of a hero in some former SDA and liberal SDA circles, but I was absolutely appalled to read Ford trying to defend EGW's value by denigrating Jesus and the apostles. In one chapter, Ford suggests that both Jesus and the apostles predicted and fully expected a first century second coming, but that it didn't happen as they predicted due to the conditional nature of prophecy. Therefore, we shouldn't criticize EGW for her failed prophecies because Jesus also had failed prophecies. Astounding! I don't know where he stands today, but at least at that point in his life he was wiling to attribute false prophecy to Jesus in order to save Ellen. You guys are right. If you find a rationale for saying some of what EGW wrote should be heeded and other things can be overlooked, then you are free to create your own comfortable version of Adventism. You can have it all, the comfortable culture you grew up in without some of the more problematic teachings that cause you to lose sleep. It takes much more courage to say, "This is a false system, propigating a false gospel, based on a false prophet". I firmly believe that God is not calling people to pick and choose which teachings of false prophets like Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, or Ellen G. White they would like to follow and which teachings they would like to ignore, but to come out of the false systems these prophets created entirely. To come into full fellowship with the body of Christ. If an entire organization can do this as an organization, like the WWCOG, great! If not, then I believe individuals are called to come out and proclaim truth without compromise.
Chris |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
This is something I posted on another forum...if you cannot stomach SDA thinking...please skip this post. If you chose to read it, please post ideas that I might have missed. This guy is one of the few on that forum that will come out of the closet and say what SDA's really believe...like if you renounce Ellen you have renounced Christ. No other SDA's challenge him or even disagree...so deep down they must feel the same way...
12387, "So many unbeliever's in the world!"
Posted by me, Pheeki:
With so many people in the world not even believing in God or Jesus...we should be ashamed that we bicker about doctrine. It is truly heartbreaking to go to the athiest board and read how these people believe...I don't suggest it...it is hurtful to think about.
However, my point is...We are all believers here...some may think they have "special truth" that will save you (by associating with the people of the "special truth") but there is only one that saves, and that One is Jesus Christ!
All this other stuff is fluff!
Gregg Mon Nov-03-03 06:34 PM
Member since Dec 01st 2002
4410 posts, 16 votes, 30 points
#12391, "RE: So many unbeliever's in the world!"
In response to Reply # 0
We all are believers in something, even the Athiest believes in something. II Thess 2 -14 indicates we must have a love for the truth and a love for sinner, and not the sin. Jesus says that all that cry Lord Lord will not be saved. Only those who believe and do His Word will be saved. When all the talk is done we will find out who actually follows Jesus. Matthew 7:15-27
To which I replied:
pheekifree Mon Nov-03-03 07:58 PM
Member since May 13th 2003
647 posts, 1 votes, 2 points
#12392, "RE: So many unbeliever's in the world!"
In response to Reply # 1
I totally disagree. Are we or are we not justified and declared righteous by our faith in Jesus and our faith alone? You need some assurance! The Bible also says "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved!" But you sure like to dwell in the negative. Why would you try so hard to undermine faith? Many times when people have professed they are saved (showing faith in God's promises) you and others come back with "all that cry Lord Lord will not be saved."
You insist on taking that text out of context to make people doubt their salvation...like we can never be sure...If we must go over this again, we will...the verse is talking about false prophets who were never really saved! Unconverted, wolves in sheep's clothing! Read it in context!
A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
So you are taking the words of Jesus and using them against his beloved redeemed to try to undermine their faith! Shame on you, Gregg!
Let's see what Jesus said about salvation for those who believe in him!
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 10
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
And then Paul said:
Romans 10
4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Gregg, please stop trying to undermine the work of the Holy Spirit!
So my SDA friend Gregg comes back with:
Mon Nov-03-03 09:43 PM
Member since Dec 01st 2002
4410 posts, 16 votes, 30 points
#12396, "RE: So many unbeliever's in the world!"
In response to Reply # 2
I have read the context. It says that people, whether they be false prophets or someone else, comes to Jesus crying Lord Lord. Are the false prophets coming to Jesus crying Lord Lord? If they are what are they looking for? Are false prophets able to deceive only the wicked? Or does a false prophet distract sheep that should be coming to Jesus? If you believe in election then how can you not be saved? If you believe in the idea that Jesus' sheep hear His voice and no one can take them out of His hand then why would you be concerned at all with these texts? Those ideas nullify almost all of Scripture in their frantic desire to escape reality. So if you don't have those ideas then go in peace.
If that is what you see - then let it be unto you according to your faith.
How is it possible for me to undermine your belief in once saved always saved? Are you saved or not? If you are saved and you actually believe this doctrine of hell then you are perfectly safe for no one can snatch you out of the hand of God. I just happen to believe the Bible and It's teaching that you can be deluded, that you can rebel, you are perfectly free to go with satan if that is what you want. Satan can not take you from Jesus but you are always free to leave and accept the delusions of the enemy.
pheekifree Tue Nov-04-03 04:03 PM
Member since May 13th 2003
647 posts, 1 votes, 2 points
#12415, "RE: So many unbeliever's in the world!"
In response to Reply # 3
Gregg:If you want to give me more assurance I am always happy to
receive any and all manifestations of love from Jesus through His children.
Pheeki:I cannot give you assurance. Believing the promises of God is what gives you assurance. I am not sure you believe them.
Pheeki:The Bible also says "All who call
upon the name of the Lord will be saved!"
Gregg: I agree.
Pheeki: Then where is our arguement? You totally reversed your stance from Matthew 7.
Pheeki: But you sure like to dwell in the negative.
Gregg:What was the negative that I dwelt on? Is it because I
quoted II Thess 2? Should I not quote II Thess 2? I did not
write it so when you tell me not to quote it what should I
do?
***Note from Pheeki to FAF-notice how he never gives the actual body of the text, just the chapter and verse!***
Pheeki:I never told you not to quote it. Here it is...now explain what part I am supposed to be addressing?
Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Stand Firm
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
Pheeki: Why would you try so hard to undermine faith?
Gregg: Does Matthew 7 undermine faith? I am surprised that you would think that?
Pheeki: No, it doesn't in the least, but you do. Everytime someone expressed faith that they are saved, you or Rosemary (possibly Suzy-one or both of them, I would have to go back to say for sure) quote Matthew 7 totally out of context...or you are trying to say I and others are false prophets. Either way it undermines what we say and gives the clear message that we no one can know if they are saved because not all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be saved (though it clearly is talking about wolves who are really trying to keep people from being saved) and clearly denies the rest of the NT promises, such as Romans 10!
Many times when people have professed they
are saved (showing faith in God's promises) you and others come back with "all that cry Lord Lord will not be saved."
Gregg: It this phrase true?
Pheeki: You insist on taking that text out of context.
Gregg: Did I take it out of context? Can you show me how I have taken this text or II Thess 2 out of context?
Pheeki: Yes, I already did. If it is in context that means you are #1 calling me a prophet (something I have never claimed to be), #2False (something I am not) and #3 not saved. (Something I clearly am! And I believe God when he says I am). Why would you want to cast doubts on my status with God? I don't understand.
What did you mean by the statement that "When all the talk is done we will find out who actually follows Jesus." An athiest is not going to say "Lord, Lord."
I was addressing unbelievers...we know they don't follow Jesus...so who was that statement directed at if it was not me? Were you or were you not implying that I would be proven to be a false prophet and what a surprise I will get when Jesus comes back! (Something Suzy has also stated to me!)
Pheeki: to make people
doubt their salvation...like we can never be sure
Gregg:It does not make me doubt my salvation in Jesus so why would it make you doubt yours?
Pheeki: Gregg, quit. You know exactly what you meant by posting that...let me refresh your memory...also you feel quite smug and secure that the SDA church will be your ark off this planet and you think I am lost because I am not on that ark...well, let me tell you, a way has already been made for me and that is Jesus Christ!
To refresh your memory: I wrote:
With so many people in the world not even believing in God or Jesus...we should be ashamed that we bicker about doctrine. It is truly heartbreaking to go to the athiest board and read how these people believe...I don't suggest it...it is hurtful to think about.
However, my point is...We are all believers here...some may think they have "special truth" that will save you (by associating with the people of the "special truth") but there is only one that saves, and that One is Jesus Christ!
All this other stuff is fluff!
To which you replied:
We all are believers in something, even the Athiest believes in something. II Thess 2 -14 indicates we must have a love for the truth and a love for sinner, and not the sin. Jesus says that all that cry Lord Lord will not be saved. Only those who believe and do His Word will be saved. When all the talk is done we will find out who actually follows Jesus. Matthew 7:15-27
Pheeki:...If we must go over this again, we will...the verse is talking about false
prophets who were never really saved! Unconverted, wolves in sheep's clothing! Read it in context!
Gregg: I have read the context. It says that people, whether they be false prophets or someone else,
Pheeki:Where do you get the someone else? It is clearly addressing false prophets.
Gregg: comes to Jesus crying Lord
Lord. Are the false prophets coming to Jesus crying Lord Lord?
Pheeki: Yes. See below.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Jesus is saying these are false prophets who never knew him. They are evil doers!
Gregg:If they are what are they looking for?
Pheeki: Probably monitary gain, prestige, a following. Think televeangelists.
Gregg: Are false prophets able to deceive only the wicked?
Pheeki: No, I believe they can easily fool those who still have the veil over their hearts and don't trust scripture!
Gregg: Or does a false prophet distract
sheep that should be coming to Jesus?
Pheeki: They could but...not for long. If they are true sheep, Jesus will save them to the uttermost!
Gregg: If you believe in election then how can you not be saved?
Pheeki: What?
***Note to FAF-I have never said I believe in election...I have no idea what I believe about that...I am not a Calvinist.***
Gregg: If you believe in the idea that Jesus' sheep hear His voice and no one can take them
out of His hand then why would you be concerned at all with these texts?
Pheeki: I do believe that. I am not concerned with these texts taken in context...I am concerned with you distorting them to prove your agendas.
Gregg: Those ideas nullify almost all of Scripture in their frantic desire to escape reality. So if you don't have those ideas then go in peace.
Pheeki: Which ideas? That we are saved?
Gregg: I just happen to believe the Bible and It's teaching that you can be deluded, that you can rebel, you are perfectly free to go with satan if that is what you want.
Pheeki: Of course you are...I will repeat it again...you can renounce Christ, but once you are in Him and have recieved peace and assurance, who in their right mind would?
Gregg: Satan can not take you from Jesus but you are always free to leave and accept the delusions of the enemy.
Pheeki: What are the delusions of the enemy in your opinion? Here are some I think of:
#1 Jesus did not finish what he started on the cross.
#2 Satan is not a defeated foe.
#3 You are saved by faith but must keep certain parts of the Old Covenant to stay saved because faith is not enough to finish the job.
#4 Other denominations are lost and will be punished for worshipping God unacceptibly.
#5 The kingdom of God is all about what you eat and drink.
#6 Jesus only nailed ceremonies to the cross...
#7 You are saved...your not saved...you are saved...you are not saved...(think of plucking petals from a daisy)
#8 Others in the body of Christ are not acceptible and equal to a particular denomination's believers...so make it a closed society and don't become contaminated by them. (they don't play well together!) Unclean! Unclean! I'm a Levite!
#9 Hoping against hope that others in the Body of Christ will someday get what is coming to them for believing different than what a certain person believes..."You'll see when the judgment comes!"
#10 But the most damaging delusion of the enemy would have to be undermining the simple faith people have in what God promised. ("Too easy"..."What? I only have to believe? Even the demons believe." "Not all who cry Lord, Lord will be saved.")
Tue Nov-04-03 07:16 PM
Member since May 13th 2003
647 posts, 1 votes, 2 points
#12425, "RE: So many unbeliever's in the world!"
In response to Reply # 5
#1 Jesus did not finish what he started on the cross.
Gregg:
>I believe that Jesus finished the sacrificial part of the
>sanctuary service on Calvary. I believe that He then went to
>heaven to start the priestly component of His ministry in the
>heavenly Sanctaury.
Pheeki: He didn't qualify "It is finished." He stated it, and I believe it! Salvation is complete...he isn't up there investigating.
>
>#2 Satan is not a defeated foe.
Gregg: I believe that satan is a defeated but still alive foe. I
>believe that satan is still able to tempt people to turn away
>from Jesus even though defeated. Jesus still warns us to stay
>away from him.
Pheeki: Really...how can he separate us from Jesus? Even if we are tempted and sin, does that separate us from Jesus? We had all better hope not because we sin every minute we are alive...we are sinners...fortunately our sins are not counted against us when we are in Christ.
>
>#3 You are saved by faith but must keep certain parts of the
>Old Covenant to stay saved because faith is not enough to
>finish the job.
Gregg: I believe that all of God's people from Adam, Eve, Able to
>our day were saved by faith. I also believe that when you
>accept Jesus by faith and He writes His new covenant laws in
>your heart that you will also obey Him. If you choose not to
>obey God then you will turn away from Him by faith.
Pheeki: Can you chose not to sin? Can a leopard change his spots? Good luck! Aren't we blessed that in the New Covenant our sins are not counted against us.
>
>#4 Other denominations are lost and will be punished for
>worshipping God unacceptibly.
Gregg: I believe that God will evaluate each person by how that person responds to His Word. Matthew 7:24-29. If they turn away from Jesus they will be lost. Denominations are simply
clusters of people that have similar beliefs. If a cluster of people who rebel against Jesus are together then they will all be lost. Jesus calls all of His people to come out of those clusters of rebellion called Babylon.
Pheeki: What clusters of rebellion called Babylon are you speaking of? Baptists? Lutherans? Church of Christ? Assembly of God?
#5 The kingdom of God is all about what you eat and drink.
Gregg: The kingdom of God is about Jesus. When He instructs you to
>eat or drink then the loving Christian will respond by
>obedience to His will. I Cor 10:31. Those who rebel against
>Jesus, and His food instructions, will experience Psalms
>78.
Pheeki: That is your opinion. Read the New Covenant (Testament)with your blinders off and you might get an eye opener.
>#6 Jesus only nailed ceremonies to the cross...
Gregg: Jesus nailed the sacrificial ceremonies to the cross. Daniel 9:27. He did not nail the ten commandments to the cross.
Pheeki: Again, read the NT. There had to be a change in the Law for Jesus to be a high priest...not only that, the Law has nothing to say now to anyone in Christ. Why would you want to be under the Law instead of Christ? Read Galatians. Hagar and Sarah.
>
#7 You are saved...your not saved...you are saved...you are
>not saved...(think of plucking petals from a daisy)
Gregg: Jesus died to preserve your freedom of choice. Satan cannot pluck you out of the hand of God. Just like satan could not force Adam and Eve to eat of the tree. But God allowed them to have freedom of choice and if they chose, of their own free will, to eat of the tree then they could. Their sins seperated them from God. Isaiah 59:2. Their desire for the world deceived them and started to choke them out. Matthew 13:22.
Anybody is free to choose to leave or to stay. Their faith in Jesus is the deciding factor.
Pheeki: In the New Covenant, our sins cannot separate us from God because they are taken care of...cancelled, remembered no more. Therefore only WE can separate ourselves from God and I cannot think how anyone would willingly do that once they have tasted freedom.
#8 Others in the body of Christ are not acceptible and equal
>to a particular denomination's believers...so make it a closed
>society and don't become contaminated by them. (they don't
>play well together!) Unclean! Unclean! I'm a Levite!
Gregg:
Truth is the deciding factor. II Thess 2 -14. Refusal to accept truth is the test. Romans 1
Pheeki: You mean the truth according to Gregg and Ellen. I am led by the Holy Spirit. Remember, the one who leads us into all truth. We don't have to worry and fret about being tested. That is so SDA, always tests...will you die for the Sabbath, will you tell your boss you refuse to work on Sabbath...praise the Lord I have already passed the only test Jesus requires of me, belief in Him!
#9 Hoping against hope that others in the Body of Christ will
>someday get what is coming to them for believing different
>than what a certain person believes..."You'll see when the
>judgment comes!"
Gregg: Judgment is to be decided by whether you will accept Jesus. Acts 17:29-31. Accepting Jesus means you will receive His Spirit and be willing to obey Him by His power and strength.
Pheeki: What is obeying? Believing in the One he has sent. I don't have to wait for judgment...I am covered in Christ's righteousness and in the words of Jesus have passed from death to life. I have no fear of judgment.
>#10 But the most damaging delusion of the enemy would have to
>be undermining the simple faith people have in what God
>promised. ("Too easy"..."What? I only have to believe? Even
>the demons believe." "Not all who cry Lord, Lord will be
>saved.")
Gregg: With belief comes responsibility and love. I John 5:1-3 and Revelation 14:1-12
Pheeki: What does that have to do with #10?
***Note to FAF...any help or thoughts? Sorry to bring up bad memories for you all...but I am at my wits end with him!***
> |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
Sounds like this Gregg believes that he IS believing the Bible. I don't think you can do more. But my argument with those who want to cling to the fact you can lose your salvation is this: there is a tension in scripture. Yes, we have a choice, once we've made the choice, we don't have to fear every next step. Yet, scripture also says we have been chosen. You can't impeach one part of scripture with another. What exactly it means that we've been chosen, and what it exactly it means that we have free choice is somewhat of a mystery to me, but both positions exist within scripture. You have to balance both, not cling to one and discard the other. Does it mean God has revealed himself to me in a way he doesn't to those who don't choose him, therefore I have been chosen, or is the "being chosen" really universal and though he chooses all of us, only a few choose him back? I don't know the answer. However it came to be, I know I am his, now and forever. There is a guy in Case for Christ by Lee Strobel who used to be an evangelist. I can't remember exactly what happened, but he eventually turned from Christ. Clearly saved, clearly rejecting. Lee asked him why in an interview towards the end of his life, and he cried as he talked of missing Christ. But he made no indication of going back. I think those situations are REAL and RARE. It is more likely that someone was never saved, in my opinion, than that someone got saved but never cared. But it is an intentional act, not something that happens by sinning "too much". Whatever that is. I keep asking B how he can believe you are saved by some vague level of obedience, then live in an immoral lifestyle otherwise? With him, it is as though keeping the Sabbath covers a multitude of sins.
Anyway, once I've established that relationship with Christ (as with any other personal relationship), why do those who want to claim salvation is some slippery slope we walk up think we get "saved" to live any old way we want? If things were going so great that nothing needed to be changed in my life, I doubt I recognized a need for a savior let alone accepted one. That sounds like keeping the Sabbath "just in case" as posted by Colleen (maybe in another thread). IF I've really been saved, I'm interested in a relationship with Christ. It is no accident that Christ compares our relationship to marriage. Once married, you do things to nurture and develop the relationship and you don't do things that hurt your partner. But those opposed to once-saved-always-saved ideas always take the extreme position that you can live any way you want. I don't want my 'husband' coming home because he has to and has no place else he can go. I want him there because he wants to be there. As long as we want to be kept by Christ, I think he keeps us. It is the rare exception that someone who knows Christ CHOOSES to leave. (I think). We don't need to live in fear.
B makes many of the same arguments and it's just talking in circles. Why does he have to presume that I don't care anything about God and being obedient because I think scripture teaches the 10 were nailed along with the rest of the law? I keep asking him what it is exactly that I do that is so awful. I don't kill, steal, covet, etc. If it's just those 10 words, as I've said before, it's easy. It's the relationship part that is hard. Personally, people that argue those points seem to be very shallow to me. As long as the outside of the cup is clean, who cares about the inside?
I know it's an honorable to want to be true to scripture, but as I've said everything I can to B, it seems as though you've said every thing to this guy that can be said. I read once on another site that there were far more ripe fields for harvest than trying to witness to a committed SDA. As you said, he likened it to beating your head against a brick wall. There are seekers out there who really are hungry to know Christ. Maybe it's time to find riper pastures??
Years ago, I believe God lead me to Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went forth to a place which he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went, although he did not know or trouble his mind about where he was to go." I didn't know where God was going to take me in my life, but I was determined to allow God to lead (and I've certainly stumbled down the path). Though I have stumbled, Abraham certainly did too. Yet, God still kept his promises to him. What a great comfort that is to me. That comfort comes for the person who seeks Christ with all his heart, letting go of everything. From where I sit, SDAs will give up "anything" for God, except Adventism itself. And that is their choice.
I don't know if this is helpful or just co-miserating. But the arguments are so similar to those I've had with B. They just never went anywhere. Maybe you've done all you could and he's now accountable for what he does with the truth. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 12:31 pm: | |
Melissa, I agree with you. When people keep arguing about the Bible without a desire to know what it says, they really won't find out.
I have a wonderful colleague who used to be with Campus Crusade for Christ and who spent years discipling women who were new in their walks with God before she started teachng. In her words (or close to them), "The Bible is a closed book. Unless you are born again and have the Holy Spirit, it will never make sense to you."
I think, Pheeki, that you probably have done all you can do for Gregg, and, as Melissa said above, "he's now accountable for what he does with the truth."
I'm also thinking back to Cindy's and Chris's posts above, and I'm seeing so clearly why Adventism is such an enigma to the Christian community. Their cultic teachings have been so hidden--intentionally--that they're almost not visible even to young members anymore, yet the spirit of deception which shaped Ellen's visions and writings still holds Adventists in bondage. They can masquerade as "normal" Christians, yet they are still in bondage to a false prophet and her deceiving guiding spirit.
Praise God for showing us truth.
Colleen |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
Chris, I almost forgot your comments re: Desmond Ford. Yes, I read his Glacier View transcript, but I read it in 80 or 81 when I was still Adventist, so that dissonance between scripture and Ellen didn't junmp out at me.
I do remember being frustrated when I was working with Adventist Today and we ran an article Ford wrote in defense of the Sabbath. By then I was aware of his clinging to EGW and to tradition, and his arguments were illogical, I thought. I remember wondering how he could denounce the IJ so strongly and take such a strong stand on scripture, then apparently lose his scholarly clarity when he dealt with the Sabbath. I also wondered how he could still support EGW when she had so blatantly taught the unscriptural investigative judgment. I felt very frustrated and disappointed in his thinking at that point.
Colleen |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 1:00 pm: | |
Some of the most telling features of the conversations you are experiencing is what I will label ìon-message non-answers,î ìinsincere agreement,î and ìinsincere ignorance.î
As examples of these, I submit:
Q: ì. . . did you come out of Egypt?î (Clearly, to all, including the respondent, this was an examination of the applicability of the Torah to Gentiles.)
A: ìI certainly came out of the ëEgypt of siníî (A unscriptural, unsupported symbolic transformation of the verse in Deuteronomy.î)
Q: ì . . . we are saved by faith alone.î
A: ìCertainly, but then we must obey the Ten Commandments to stay in relationship with God.î (A backhanded, after the fact, requirement for salvation, since he believes that salvation does not really occur until the Second Coming.)
Q: ì . . . It is Finished.î
A: ìSurely something must be incomplete since we are still here on earth.î (An egregious eisegesis which presumes that the work of salvation only completes at the Second Coming, and therefore uses the fact that this event has not happened to prove that the work is not complete.)
And Finally, my favorite:
Q: ì . . . a shadow of things to come.î
A: ìObviously, Paul thought that the ërealityí was not yet present 20 years after the resurrection.î (Yet the Greek grammar (see Strongís) clearly makes ìthings to comeî present tense in that verse.)
This is the type of deception you are up against. Despite your concern for the ìcasual reader being deceived.î I donít think posting there will change much.
They (Greg, dconklin before he was banned and the others) will continue to spam-post and double-talk.
I wish you could just pray for them, and spare yourself the anguish.
God Bless you Pheeki. |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 7:42 am: | |
One thing I noted in the excerpts of "Greg's" post is that he seems to make light of the concept of election. I think it's worth stating that all Christians believe in election because the Bible clearly says God's people are His elect or chosen (Mat. 24:31, Mk. 13:27, Lk. 18:7, Rom. 8:33, Rom. 9:11, Rom. 11:7, Rom 11:28, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Pet. 1:1, 2 Pet. 1:10). All Christians believe in predestination because the Bible clearly says we are predestined (Rom. 8:29, 30, 1 Cor. 2:7, Eph. 1:5, Eph 1:11). The in-house debate is not whether Christians should believe in these concepts or not, it's *WHAT* we should believe about these concepts that is debated. Or more specifically, upon what basis are we predestined, upon what basis are we the elect? I don't intend to debate the basis of election/predestination here, just to point out that both are thoroughly Biblical concepts.
A second thing I noted about Greg's post is that he doesn't seem to really be interacting with the scripture and arguments that Pheeki is presenting. In fact, I doubt if he is really doing more than skimming it just enough to be able to reply with a pre-conceived pat answer. In my humble opinion, this was exactly what Jesus was talking about when he told the disciples to shake the dust off their feet if they weren't received. I think we are better off using our God given energy and enthusiasm talking to those who want to have a sincere dialogue on scripture as opposed to debating with those who just want to be "right" at all cost.
Chris |
Terryk (Terryk)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 10:11 am: | |
Amen Chris. I just had to get away from all my friends who were in church who wanted to argue. I would go to trouble to find all the texts that would help and they just could or would not look. If you have it in you to keep talking with them more power to you. I myself just had to break away and get healthy. Thank you Chris for all the wisdom you have soon on here. I enjoy your posts. Thanks to everyone here for prayers and support. |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 10:56 am: | |
I cannot thank all of you enough. The encouragement and sympathy refreshes my heart. Gregg just told me in a post that since I have failed the test of obedience he can only conclude that the spirit I have is not from God.
So sad, he condemns himself by condemning me. I hope lurkers there can see his true character...his conscience is seared with a hot iron, just like his idol, Ellen's was.
Chris, I loved what you wrote about Abraham...I am going to use it on him if you don't mind and then I think I am going to quit replying to him...you are correct about shaking the dust.
Jerry, you hit the nail on the head, Gregg and others are waiting for the second coming instead of enjoying their rest in Jesus now. They think "It is finished!" doesn't mean anything but the ceremonial part of the Law...really sad to me! |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 10:58 am: | |
Sorry I meant what Melissa wrote about Abraham! |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 12:02 pm: | |
Don't mind at all. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 471
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Dennis, what is the web address of that liberal SDA site that you go to? |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 125
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 10:04 pm: | |
Due to various reasons and the chief one being I studied all the church doctrine, for the tests only, and then promptly forgot most of it. I am finally seeing how subtle and insidious it is. I am sure as I move further and further away from adventism I will see more things. Everything seems to revert back to EGW and what she says about whatever.
I am so thankful God started taking me out of it more than 20 years ago.
God is AWESOME!!!
Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 93
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 7:26 pm: | |
Susan,
The liberal SDA website is: www.atomorrow.com. Many posters on that website are former Adventists who oftentimes believe that having a relationship with Jesus is "imaginary" and/or "presumptuous." Others are Adventist evolutionists, agnostics, abortion proponents, etc. Paradoxically, they rail against Ellen White, but they still remain semi-loyal to the church that she founded.
Although they often criticize the Adventist Church in their discussions; however, it is best to NEVER refer to Ellen White as a false prophet in their threaded discussions. After all, she still remains the apple of their eye. Posts are heavily scrutinized by fellow posters. This conversation cafe has replaced the abruptly, discontinued Adventist Today forums. To their credit, one well-respected, doctrinal discussion is led by a former Adventist. Even Clifford Goldstein periodically posts there amid unending controversy. In my view, this website is largely a massive cesspool of contradiction, doubt, fear, denial, and legalism.
Sadly, most of them lack the courage and commitment to actually surrender their Adventism to Jesus. Still others have taken their names off the SDA Church membership roster years ago, but they still faithfully attend services every Sabbath. Worshipping God on Sunday still frightens many of them--even though they no longer strive to observe the legal Sabbath. Consequently, they are basically an unchurched group. Additionally, many in this group are well-educated. Indeed, the stranglehold of Adventism is very real and spiritually-suffocating.
Dennis J. Fischer
|
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 1:09 am: | |
Colleen,
As this thread is about Proclamation, I should just like to ask a question. I have checked out the webpage a few times recently, and it appears that the newest articles are now not available online to download, although the older issues were. Is this going to be the case from now on?
I ask, because I enjoyed reading the articles too, but I do not receive the magazine by post, as it would have to be sent to Hungary, and I am not ex-SDA. I could not pass it on to SDAs either, because the ones I know do not speak English.
Anyway, just asking,
God bless,
Adrian |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 304
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 12:25 pm: | |
Adrian, the plan is to have all the issues online. I'm not sure exactly when to tell you you'll find them--we're in transition right now as we establish magazine and the website here instead of in Arizona. I'll try to get better nfo for you re: a time frame!
Colleen |
Jlondon81
Registered user
Username: Jlondon81
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
Adrian,
That has been the case for Proclamation for almost a year now, but to their credit they do what they can. I'm certainly not complaining. I do enjoy when the newest issues show up online when I check out the site. Certainly read up the older issues though. That's kinda where I started out.
Joel |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 130
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 6:42 pm: | |
Colleen,
I received my first issue of Proclamation this past Saturday. It is done very well.
BTW, is that a picture of you on the second page??
I haven't read it all the way through, but I will.
Diana |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 341
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 8:34 pm: | |
Yes, nice job Colleen. I love the addition of the pictures and being able to put a face with the name! The pictures also make Proclamation! look like a nice upscale subscription journal.
Chris |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 612
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 10:09 pm: | |
Dennis, about the atomorrow forum-do they diss President Bush a lot? |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 246
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 7:21 am: | |
Colleen,
Very nice job on the new Proclamation. I really like the pictures that were in this new edition. Keep up the good work!
Susan 2, President Bush does get some bashing but he also has his supporters over on a-tomorrow. I know what bothers me so much over there is the blatantly agnostic/atheistic, often anti-Christian tone of some of the posters. And yet, you don't want to attack the SDA church..... |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page