| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thought you might be interested in this part of the latest tome of misinformation: Former Adventists Adopt the Belief in the Survival of the Spirit The second reason for posting an additional study, is the deceptive promotion of life after death, not only by the media, but even by former Adventists, as indicated by the leading article of the August 2003 issue of Proclamation, which is entitled "Death: Oblivion or Graduation." The author, Samuel Pestes, is former Adventist . Simply stated, the position of the article is that for believers eternal life begins here and now, because their spirits live on at the death of the body. Proclamation is a bimonthly magazine, published by former Adventists who have embraced the New Covenant Theology, which reject the Sabbath as being part of the package of laws of the OT nailed to the cross. What began as an attack against the Sabbath, is now becoming a broad attack on practically all the fundamental Adventist beliefs. The lesson is clear. Abandoning the Sabbath places a person on a slippery slope that can lead to the rejection of other fundamental biblical teachings. The magazine is mailed out free of charge to over 30,000 Adventist leaders. The hidden intent of the magazine is not to proclaim biblical truths, but to provoke Adventists to abandon their fundamental beliefs. In view of their hidden intent, a more appropriate name for the magazine would be PROVOCATION. Their provocatory tactics are having a degree of success, as indicated by a few thousand Adventists, including a good number of former Adventist pastors and Bible teachers, who have embraced their theology during the past 10 years. I have spent months dialoguing with them and exposing the flaws of their methodology and conclusions. The book THE SABBATH UNDER CROSSFIRE is largely the outcome of this debate. The fundamental problem of their teachings is the cafeteria method of biblical interpretation. When you go to a cafeteria to eat, if you do not like the broccoli, you don't take them. But when it comes to the study the Bible, we have to eat the broccoli as well. We cannot choose only those passages that support our view. We must give adequate consideration to all the relevant passages. A good example is the article just mentioned. The author selects few Bible texts which seem to support his view of the conscious life of the spirit after the death of the body. One of the texts is John 11:25, where Jesus says: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." He interprets this text as meaning that "because He was the resurrection and the life, our spirits have already been endowed with eternal life" (p. 8). What he means is that when our bodies die, our spirits live on. This interpretation ignores both the immediate context and the overall teaching of Scripture. The context tells us that Jesus describes death as a sleep from which the dead will awaken at the sound of His voice. The reason believers will never die, is not because their spirit live on, but because they will awake from the sleep of death, as Lazarus did. If, as Samuele Pestes argues, the spirit at death leaves the body and lives on without the body, then Lazarus would have had an amazing experience to share about the four days he would have spent as a spirit in some spiritual realms. Such information would have provided valuable answers to the question of life after death which was so hotly debated among the Sadducees and Pharisees (Matt 22:23, 28; Mark 12:18, 23; Luke 20:27, 33). But Lazarus had nothing to share about life after death, because during the four days he spent in the tomb he slept the unconscious sleep of death. It is unfortunate that at the very time when leading scholars are embracing the Adventist, Biblical wholistic view of human nature, some former Adventists are adopting the pagan dualistic view of human nature, with the mortal body and immortal soul. While researching and writing my book IMMORTALITY OR RESURRECTION? it was thrilling to read leading scholars like Oscar Cullmann, John Stott, and Clark Pinnock, defending the Adventist wholistic view of human nature, where the soul or spirit are not separate components that come apart at death, but the animating principles of the body. In the book I am citing over 400 scholars who during the past 50 years have rejected the belief in the immortality of the soul. For the first time in Christian history, our Adventist belief in the unconscious state of the dead until resurrection morning, is enjoying considerable support by scholars of all denominations. Scholars can afford to change their views when confronted with a fuller understanding of Biblical teachings, because they speak for themselves. The situation is much different for their denominations. If they were to change their beliefs on the biblical view of human nature, they would have to abandon other beliefs such as eternal torment, prayer for the dead, purgatory, intercession of the saints, and the veneration of Mary. The ultimate result would be the collapse of their theological scaffolding. | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Sabra, This article by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocci is virtually identical to the late Dr. Leroy E. Froom's THE CONDITIONALIST FAITH OF OUR FATHERS. Dr. Froom, by deliberately and/or ignorantly, misinterpreting hundreds of Bible scholars' writings, had them ALL in his aberrant camp of conditionalism/annihilationism. Froom, like Bacchiocchi, wrongly claimed to have hundreds of scholars on his side throughout church history. What a foolish conclusion for men with even doctoral degrees! Dr. Robert A. Morey's book, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, goes face to face with Dr. Froom and repeatedly points out his dishonesty. It is my understanding that the works of Dr. Froom are no longer highly regarded by SDA seminary professors today. Claiming that hundreds of scholars agree with you, when they don't, is utmost dishonesty. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
ADDENDUM: Dr. Bacchiocci's historical research on the Sabbath issue was also read with "Adventist glasses" on. His intense, dogmatic SDA presuppositions did not allow objective research--even at the best libraries in the world. Dr. D. James Kennedy told him the same thing several months ago. Dr. Bacchiocci repeatedly placed calls to Dr. Kennedy's Florida office without success. Therefore, he finally sent him a bundle of his books as a gift to get his attention. Dr. Bacchiocci did not appreciate Dr. Kennedy's reply. Bacchiocci, of course, was hoping for confirmation of his faulty interpretation of Sabbath history. ---DJF | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, thank you for sharing that article, and Dennis, thank you for your response. This is NOT the first example of Bacchiocci's dishonesty. I'm amused by his assertion that what began as abandoning the Sabbath is becoming a rejection of other biblical truths. It seems our more common experience was that "abandoning" the Sabbath was by no means the "beginning". For me, losing EGW began the process, and the Bible suddenly came alive. It may be true to say that admitting Ellen was a false prophet ultimately leads to discovering that other SDA beliefs are false, but it certainly is not correct to say abandoning the Sabbath leads to a rejection of biblical truth. Again, the unstated assumption is that we were looking for a way NOT to keep the seventh day. From my perspective, nothing could be further from the truth. I loved the Sabbath. But praise God, I've discovered that Jesus is even better than the Sabbath! We can absolutely expect, though, that we will continue to be misunderstood and misrepresented. And it's OK--God is in charge of the truth, and we can eternally rest in him, beginning now and never stopping--not even for a time out when we die! Colleen | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
What a positive impact PROCLAMATION must be having for the dark side to take it on personally! (all lies come from Satan, afterall) Not that anyone likes to be lied about or have the genuineness of their faith or motives challenged.... What is the deal with D James Kennedy, though? I haven't heard about that one... | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
I was recently talking to our Pastor about possibly doing a class for former and transitioning SDAs in our area. He was in favor of this and had even suggested it because we have several recent formers at our church. However, when he looked at my list of topics he seemed to be concerned that I was majoring on the minors (but by definition any class on "SDA issues" would have to do this). He said, "Well, if someone wants to believe that their soul sleeps until the ressurection, I guess that doesn't really bother me. I may not agree with them, but if that's what they believe we certainly wouldn't divide over it or deny them fellowship." I certainly understand where he's coming from on this, but I had to explain that the very reason for having the discussion IS church unity. I explained that SDAs teach that the very first lie told by Satan in the Garden was "You shall not die" and that they see this as a direct reference to the state-of-the dead (obviously a contextual error). Therefore, they believe anyone teaching that to be away from the body is to be with the Lord, is teaching a Satanic lie. The fact that other denominations teach Satanic lies proves that they are part of the whore of Babylon. Since there cannot be any fellowship with Satanic Babylon, there cannot be any real fellowship with other so-called Christians. For SDAs, this is most assureadly a dividing point between the true "remmnant" church and all those so-called Christians who are really deceived by the beast (as demonstrated by Bacchiocci's remarks above). So, this is indeed an issue of unity. In principle, I would agree with our pastor that we could still have Christian fellowship with someone who was a conditionalist (as much as I may disagree with them). But, at a minimum, it is necessary for former SDAs to realize why the Church has always held to "away from the body, with the Lord" based upon scripture alone. It is necessary for former SDAs to realize that this is anything but a Satanic lie. It is infact strongly supported by the Word of God. If they weigh ALL of the Biblical evidence and still go away with a conditionalist perspective, fine.......as long as they no longer allow this issue to seperate them from the body of Christ and it no longer causes them to view orthodox Christians as deceivers. We can vigorously debate these things with the Stotts and Pinocks* of the world, but we don't have to divide over them. For the sake of unity, I really think this is an issue that all transitioning SDAs really need to look into with an open mind. Chris *NOTE: Although I wouldn't divide with Pinock over a conditionalist view, his ever more radical views on open theism may very well be a point of division. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Chris, so glad you had an opportunity to educate your pastor on this. When we first began talling our pastor about some of the problems in adventism, he had responded that it really doesn't matter what day someone chooses to worship on. Which is very true. But as you found with the subject of the state of the dead, reflects ignorance of the teachings of adventism. Once we explained it, he immediately saw the problem. I think the funniest thing about the article is the "ugly indictment" that we formers embrace New Covenant Theology. Yes Lord! And so thankful for it too! The other thing I think is funny is the article quoting John 11:25 "he who believes in me will live, even tho he dies." You know, I wonder how many of the rest of you found yourselves doing the same thing we did when we were beginning to waken from the SDA stupor and begin to question the church's teachings. You began to see things in the scriptures that they used in their literature to say something very different. "Hey, wait a minute, that scripture really isn't saying that at all!" You began to read between the lines, questioning why they were so upset about a subject, recognizing that the other side had made a darned good point. So, the gospel doesn't return void. I have to think that the Lord can use even these stupidly negative articles to spur the open individual to deep study. Maybe it is some perversity in my character, but I think if I was back there still SDA and beginning to question, the very fact that they keep mentioning "Proclamation", seemingly so nervous about it, would spur me on to not sleep until I was able to get my hands on a copy to see what else it had to say. At least that was how it worked for us. I was bugged by all the negative comments about the "celebration services" I kept seeing in the REview. Ended up making phone calls around the country to locate a church that had been rather vaguely referred to, ended up in contact with Dave Snyder, and the Lord really used him to spur us on and out of the SDAs. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Yep, Lydell, we had that same experience of waking up and beginning to realize that those texts didn't really say what we had been told they say. It took a long while to really sort it all out, but the truth was co compelling! It was exciting to discover what the Bible REALLY said! Chris, I'm so glad you persisted with you pastor. I agree with you; the "state of the dead" is not an inconsequential matter that doesn't make much difference either way. The way Adventists believe it, it puts the nature of sin in question and really calls into question the nature of Jesus. It's a really significant issue that underlies many beliefs that do divide the body. Praise God for truth! Colleen | ||
| Kme (Kme) |
Sabra: Thank you for sharing that article. Where did you find it? You know nothing that SDA's say about formers ever really amazes me anymore. Have you noticed though, that they mostly parrot what EGW said about formers in the Great Controversy? If they would really look back at the many threads here they would see that the Sabbath was not the first SDA doctrine that most of us gave up, it was the last! That's the doctrine they seem to hold above all others. It was drilled into us so much that it takes some of us years to unravel the knots. It is also the doctrine they use most to proselitize other Christians with. It is truly as though the Gospel is a watered down version of Christianity and it just isn't enough. I have also heard SDA's say in reference to other churches that don't preach a lot of extra do's & don'ts, that those religions don't really have any beliefs. It is pretty sickening, because they believe it isn't a true religion without the extra baggage to carry. State of the dead (soul sleep)is another doctrine that was shocking for me to find out that it really wasn't scripturally sound. Bacchiocchi says formers use 1 or 2 proof texts. Well, and what do SDA's do? The very same! He should know that better than anyone. At least the one or two that we may use is actually talking about the subject! I'm sorry I have a sarcastic tone. It must have carried over from the article! Thats the way it hit me. In Jesus kme | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
He sends me the big monthly newsletter and it's like 40 pages long so I skim over it and didn't get far past this first article. I used to think he was seeking but it appears his heart is hardening more and more. Soul sleep minimizes the cross, as do most SDA doctrines. Song we sing in choir: I come that you might have life more abundantly I come that you might have life through eternity I did not come to condemn the world Or shame you for your wrong I have come to heal the broken hearted And give the world a song I come to give you life! I come to give you joy! Hallelujia!!!!!!! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
It is significant to observe that Dr. Bacchiocci was particularly annoyed by the state of the dead topic in Proclamation magazine. Unquestionably, soul sleep/conditionalism is one of Adventism's most deceptive doctrines. It affects the nature of Christ, the nature of man, and the nature of salvation (soteriology). There are grave Christological problems with the Adventist view on death and the afterlife. Paradoxically, the SDA view of death is compatible with theistic evolutionary thought (both view man and animals alike in death). Furthermore, the unbiblical concept of no hell is most welcome to New Agers and Reincarnationists. The worldly hedonist welcomes annihilationism as an encouragement to maintain a wicked life. Obviously, any teaching that encourages and comforts one to continue living a wicked life is not a doctrine from God. Indeed, soul sleep/conditionalism is a view that Satan wants us to believe in. QUESTIONS FOR OUR ADVENTIST FRIENDS: How can we be "born again" without a soul? How can we become a "new creation" without a soul? How can we be in a "lost" condition without a soul? Why be a Christian when there is no hell to shun? Why not practice a hedonistic lifestyle if our fate is merely to be quickly extinguished? In his book, DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE, Dr. Robert Morey states, "Because God is eternal and sees all of time before Him as a present vision, there is not "past" or "future" with God. Thus the sins of the wicked are forever in God's sight, and He judiciously punishes them forever. An eternal God requires eternal justice. On the other hand, Christ's work judiciously removes the sins of believers from being counted against them. Thus it is said that God "forgets" their sins, i.e., no longer judiciously holds these sins against them (Heb. 8:12; Rom. 4:6-8). The contrast is clear that while God judiciously "forgets" the sins of His people. He judiciously will never forget for all eternity the sins of the wicked. Thus their torment is forever." In awe of His grace, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Melissa (Melissa) |
Dennis, I have asked one of the questions you allude to above without much response. ... How do SDAs have any burden for the lost if the worst thing they think happens is they cease to exist? I have also asked B how believing in eternal hell benefits Satan, but he's a little short on responses to that too. Perspective on those? | ||
| Freeatlast (Freeatlast) |
My Brother, a devout SDA, claims that it is the doctrine of anihilation that is one of the most attractive to him about SDAism. He says it is because only an evil, twisted view of God would hold that He would torture people forever. My Brother says that, to him, anihilationism is more consistent with a God of love and mercy and that the eternal hell doctrine is a real turn-off to someone seeking for God and, as such, harms the Gospel. I think this attitude is pretty consistent with the mainstream SDA position on the matter. I have heard this position taken by other SDA's as well. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
I think part of the problem with the SDA view is the idea that God "tortures" people. I like how C.S. Lewis put it (roughly paraphrased): "Ultimately there are are only two kinds of people, those who say to God, 'Thy will be done' and those to whom God says, 'your will be done'". In other words, the eternal torment unbelievers will suffer in the outer darkenss is the natural result of their own choice to refuse the forgiveness and salvation that God offers through Jesus Christ. If we choose to remain apart from God, we indeed shall be seperated from Him eternally. Is that God "torturing" people or is it God being a just judge, applying the natural penalty of sin to all who refuse the lifeline that has been offered them? Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Melissa, you're absolutely right about the Adventist view of annhilation making them far less worried about saving souls. When we first entered the Christian community, I remember being almost put off by people's concern for the lost. I remember one lady whom I consider a really good friend saying with some frustration, "We're here worrying about (whatever, I can't remember what it was), and people all over the world are dying because they're lost and don't know Jesus!" I had almost no feeling of urgency for the lost. One evening Richard and I were walking through our neighborhood, and he startled me by saying, "Just think of all the dead people living in these houses." I had never thought about it that way before, and it really jolted me. As I thought more and more about Jesus' teaching about eternal hell, I began to realize how unbelievable dreadful it would be to be forever separated from God and from relationship, and to know one was separated. That is a fate far worse than annihilation. That's when I began to realize that it was not a matter of nearly no consequence whether or not people knew Jesus. Truly, as an Adventist I did not feel that it was a matter of urgency whether or not people knew Jesus. Of course, it would be better to live forever, but being annihilated didn't seem such a bad alternative if one couldn't be good enough to make it. I remember that I used to comfort myself, when I worried that I would never be able to be good enough to be saved, that at least I probably wouldn't burn for very long because I tried so hard to be good, and it would all be over very quickly. I have come to see God's eternal justice as essential if his grace is also eternal. God can't be eternal and omnipotent if his justice isn't as serious as his grace and mercy. In fact, I have actually felt a sense of relief as I've come to see that God takes rejecting him as seriously as he takes our accepting him. As I've discovered that I am truly eternally secure, that nothing can rob me of my eternal life because He has guaranteed it and claimed me and filled me with His Spirit, the idea of God's eternal punishment makes more and more sense. When people are not born again, however, the idea of God punishing deliberate unbelief eternally doesn't make sense. If a person does not know God and have the witness of His Spirit confirming one's sonship with God, that person senses that he will inherit whatever the punishment for unbelief will be. As a rule, Adventists do not know whether or not they are saved. They live in continual fear and uncertainty. For them to believe that God will eternally punish the unsaved would leave them livng not only in uncertainty but terror. The idea of annihilation makes their uncertainty less terrifying. I am so thankful for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Colleen, The above post is most excellent and biblical. I wholeheartedly agree that, "The idea of annihilation makes their uncertainty less terrifying." Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Colleen, Thank you for that insight!! My wife and I were just talking a few nights ago -- by telephone, darn it, since we are still 3000 miles apart... :-( -- about my dear mom's sometimes actually violent reaction to our accepting the doctrine of an eternal Hell. Over the past few years, some of those skeletons that we all like to keep hidden in our closets have begun rattling out of hers, and with that, we have discovered an awareness of some more potential reasons for Mom's deep insecurity about her Eternity. As SDAs, we never had security, or usually even hope, for our Eternal destiny -- and now this insight into her fears over that has helped me understand this a bit better... I am by NO MEANS implying that she is an evil person or that her 'skeletons' are any worse than mine, but NONE of us are good enough to make it into Heaven on our own!! I think she is coming face to face with some of her human failings -- and is more and more convinced that, in spite of all her best efforts and years of very conservative Adventist lifestyle, if it's up to what she can manage, it won't be enough. If she accepts our view of Hell as true, she has to face the "fact" that she will burn forever! OH! I wish I could help her see the marvelous truth of Grace!! How much joy and peace she is missing BECAUSE of her religious experience -- instead of being blessed by it! What freedom there is in KNOWING that we are broken vessles, but that Jesus has DONE for us that which we can never accomplish for ourselves! Amazed by HIS plan for our redemption, Den <>< | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
I want to share with you a conversation from another forum. JJ is 100% SDA. He seems to be convinced that we can fall from grace...and Patti and I say you cannot. Isn't that denying Jesus' power? Once you come to Him, he is able to save you to the uttermost! But try telling that to an SDA, it makes them furious, they must prove to us we can still be lost! It is of paramount importance! Read on. Amen, Patti!" In response to Reply # 7 Pheeki wrote: JJ, we are reconciled the mintute we accept and we cannot be snatched! Yes, sinners are everyday coming to Chirst and he is making intercession for them...not to mention hearing and answering the prayers of the Saints. JovanneJake Tue Oct-28-03 06:35 PM Member since Feb 18th 2003 369 posts, 5 votes, 8 points #12132, "RE: Amen, Patti!" In response to Reply # 8 JJ/SDA responds:Can we decide to not be "reconciled" after we are "reconciled"? Do we have a choice after we choose to follow Christ or are we locked up in chains? In Christ, JJ Jason Maher Fri Oct-31-03 10:05 AM Member since Dec 19th 2002 262 posts, Rate this user #12197, "RE: Amen, Patti!" In response to Reply # 10 Jason replied: What a nasty little caricature of the idea of assurance, and of the words of Christ. Since when did libertarian freedom become the highest good in the universe? (Answer: with the framing of the American constitution). It is not accurate to view God holding on to us and preventing us from falling as being "locked up in chains", any more than it is accurate to view the marriage bonds in the same negative light. Why is the first question on the minds of us moderns always "do I have the choice to do whatever I want, or am I constrained in some way?", as if the former were necessarily good, and the latter necessarily bad? Why can we not see that true freedom is not the freedom to do good or bad according to our whim, but rather freedom from the bondage to sin that causes us to inevitably do bad? No, we are not free to walk away from Christ, but we are free to love and to serve both Christ and others. Like any good parent, God places constraints on our freedom for our own good. And let's face it, if it were left up to us, every last one of us would in fact turn away. Indeed. He is not performing some completely pointless investigative judgement, but is interceding on behalf of His beloved saints before the Father in heaven, as He will continue to do until that glorious day when He returns again, and there will no longer be any need for intercession. in Christ, Jason Maher Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely <[i>or forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. - Hebrews 7:23-25 ~~~~~~~~~~~ pheeki Tue Oct-28-03 06:44 PM Member since May 13th 2003 623 posts, 1 votes, 2 points #12133, "Of course you can renounce Christ." In response to Reply # 8 But who would do such a thing? Jesus said: John 10 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. JJ, do you believe this? JovanneJake Wed Oct-29-03 07:27 PM Member since Feb 18th 2003 369 posts, 5 votes, 8 points #12159, "RE: Of course you can renounce Christ." In response to Reply # 11 Oh, it's happend, I'm sure. I believe what the Bible says. It does not contradict my point that there can still be a falling away, not on the part of God, but on our part. In Christ, JJ pheeki Wed Oct-29-03 07:43 PM Member since May 13th 2003 623 posts, 1 votes, 2 points #12161, "RE: Of course you can renounce Christ." In response to Reply # 16 Isn't that the same as rejecting Christ? When you say falling away...do you mean becomming more sinful? pheeki Wed Oct-29-03 07:58 PM Member since May 13th 2003 623 posts, 1 votes, 2 points #12162, "O love that will not let me go!" In response to Reply # 18 O Love that wilt not let me go, I rest my weary soul in thee; I give thee back the life I owe, That in thine ocean depths its flow May richer, fuller be. O light that followest all my way, I yield my flickering torch to thee; My heart restores its borrowed ray, That in thy sunshineís blaze its day May brighter, fairer be. O Joy that seekest me through pain, I cannot close my heart to thee; I trace the rainbow through the rain, And feel the promise is not vain, That morn shall tearless be. O Cross that liftest up my head, I dare not ask to fly from thee; I lay in dust lifeís glory dead, And from the ground there blossoms red Life that shall endless be. Member since Feb 18th 2003 369 posts, 5 votes, 8 points #12164, "RE: Of course you can renounce Christ." In response to Reply # 18 >Isn't that the same as rejecting Christ? Yes? >When you say falling away...do you mean becomming more >sinful? Take my statement in context with this: 2 Peter 2 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. In Christ, JJ (To which he ended our conversation). Why must they try their hardest to wipe out all assurance in Jesus? To me that is the most tell tale sign they are not right with God and have embraced doctrines of demons! Any thoughts? | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
So where in this passage does it speak of true, born-again believers? I see where it speaks of false teachers. I see hwere it speaks of people walking in the flesh. I see where it speaks of those with only a "knowledge" of Jesus Christ (obviously not the same as having a true saving faith that causes one to be reborn into spiritual life). All we have here are people that have an outwardly professed faith. Some use that outward profession as an avenue to corrupt others through false teaching. Others follow that false teaching and renounce what they once claimed to believe becasue they only had an outward knowledge to begin with. Becasue they had never accepted the rebirth that can only come through the work of the Holy Spirit by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I like what our pastor said once, "We're in God's family now. Once a son, always a son." So true. Once God seals us with the Holy Spirit we are children of God! Jesus is counted as our elder brother! What a priviledge! How could it ever be possible to cease being family? Will God ever un-adopt us? The very question goes against all the assurances we're given throughout scripture. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Amen! I am in awe of the fact that God makes us entirely new creatures, adopts us into his eternal family, and makes us joint heirs with Christ. And I am so thankful that God not only gives us the intellectual understanding of this miracle, but he also makes it real in our hearts. He puts his love in our hearts, and we can actually love him! I'm still amazed that after all those years of trying to figure out what exactly it meant to love Jesus, He has made himself real to me, and I KNOW I belong to him! Colleen |
