| Author | Message | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hi--I'm new to this site although I've been "lurking" for several months. I'm a 3rd generation SDA, attended Walla WAlla, then Loma Linda and was staunchly Adventist until the pain of my failed marriage 3 years ago led me to re-examine my beliefs. An issue of PRoclamation came that caught my attention; it led me to the ellenwhite.org website and since Adventism is largely intellectual, it became obvious after several hours of being glued to that website that Adventism was intrinsically wrong. That was the easy part. The hard part was the gut-wrenching realization that my entire identity was about to change forever. Like Colleen has said, it felt like I had to go through TWO divorces. Anyway, long story short, my father is still desperately trying to win me back to the fold. He's now bargaining with me. He states he will read Cultic Doctrine if I will read Goldstein's rebuttal book. My dad is about as hard core SDA as it gets. He reads and meditates for hours on Ellen White and can quote long passages verbatim. I'm asking for all of your prayers and any advice in this situation. My Dad refuses to have much interaction or even visit us (my brothers and I) because we are no longer SDA. Sad. (And this is supposed to make his religion more attractive to us?????????) Anyway, I have taken him up on his offer. I will NEVER go back into legalism again. I just pray that somehow his intellect and heart will be touched with Dale's irrefutable logic. Connie Godenick | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2001 |
Connie, Welcome. I think it is a fair offer. I have done the same with an SDA, reading his book and we have corresponded for over a year. Remember that only the Holy Spirit can open his eyes. You just plant the seed. I will pray for your dad's eyes to be opened. Sabra | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 556 Registered: 7-2000 |
Welcome Connie! I can really sympathize with your situation! I would especially pray for him to be open to God's Spirit; to have the veil lifted that he sees Jesus as our true, final Sabbath rest. A calm, and repeatedly stated, assurance in Jesus--the Cross as completely sufficient for our past, present, and future!--will be a very strong witness. The focus on Jesus will eventually either infuriate him... or else make him stop and wonder if it really could be that good and that true?! grace always, cindy | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2004 |
Welcome, Connie! We recognize the difficult situation youíre in. Iím sure most of us could say, ìbeen there, done that.î If you look at the pattern Jesus presented in Luke 10, he told us that he is sending us like lambs to the wolves. Not a fun place to be. And then he said when you first enter the house (obviously a house of wolves) speak peace over it. Arguments will never win me over, but if you are peaceful and blessing me when I curse you, Iím going to be looking carefully at what makes you so different. I suggest perhaps you pray as youíve never prayed before for a huge outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon your father. Praise God... | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks for the advice. I probably need to pray more and discuss less with him. Logic makes no dent in his armour because he can always rely on Ellen to back him up. My brothers have officially "given up" on him and I truly believe that only a miracle of the Holy Spirit can change him. I keep praying that he will visit the ellenwhite.org website and actually see all the information that debunks her. On another note, I find myself still trapped in intellecualism myself. I have a hard time "letting go and letting God" and actually trusting Him to help. I still have a hard time praying and meditating because my whole life until 3 years ago was purely an intellectual assent to the doctrines of the SDA church. I never had a real connection with God. I was afraid to--I already knew I wasn't "good enough" to be saved but I did keep trying to go through the motions. Now I see other Christians with such a great connection and I don't know how to get there myself. Would welcome any concrete suggestions. | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hi Connie, For me, the place to start was just to stop praying and start talking to Him. I mean just TALK to Him. Really tell Him how you are afraid to be honest with Him. Tell Him how you don't think you're good enough for Him. Tell Him all the hurt things and all the pain things. Be honest | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2002 |
sorry, I got posted before I was through! DUH. Continueing, I can remember some sessions when i said some things that were really nasty and unkind. If I had been God, I would have toasted me into space charcoal! I even used language that one shouldn't use with the creator and Lord of the universe. Now you have to understand that at the time I was hasving some really bad problems. I was going through blindness caused by diabetic retinopathy, with no hope for improvement. I was loosing parts of both feet, had just experienced kidney failure, and had been forced to take a disability retirement from a career which I loved and excelled in, at the age of 45. Talking to Him was not done with a lot of love on my part I blamed Him for every problem I had or ever would have. When it was all "on the table" I told Him that if He still wanted me, that I gave Him all that was left of my life. (some deal, right as it was all but over!) I told Him that I would trust Him, no matter where He took me. I asked Him to let me get close enough to Him to really know Him. Like you can know your best friend. Then I shut up and spent the rest of the night listening. What a wonderful night! No, I'm not a prophet and no I'm not better than anyone. In fact, I would admit that I am far worse than most of those on this board, but .. HE CAME, and he told me He loved me and had been waiting for me, and that my life and work was not finished yet. I can honestlh say that I am no where perfect or worth emulating, but I am so proud to say that In Jesus, I am whole. I don't know all doctrines and thank God, I don't have to! I am not "right" about all things spiritual, and think God I don't have to be. I certainly am not religious or holy, and thank Jesus, He has already done that for me! That, for what it's worth is my story of how I found Him. Stop thinking of life as a set of commandments or rules. Stop thinking religious and just make Jesus your very best friend. Trust Him, even when it doesn't make sense. And even when you feel really bad, trust Him when he said that in Him, you are saved! That's grace, and Thank Jesus, I'm living in it, every day. <><] Thomas | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2004 |
Connie, I can SO relate to what youíve said about the ìintellectual assent.î Perhaps the SDA church just naturally attracts someone who is ìleft brainedî from birth. And if youíre not, you get reprogrammed that way, at least in all of the congregations I ever attended. One time an evangelist told me he was tracking it and found the Adventist church is very unsuccessful in reaching ìsanguineî personalities. Looking back, it was about the time God started to move me out that I strongly realized that I was unbalanced to the side of the cool reasoning, without being able to clearly have appropriate emotional responses, especially in church settings. As a leader in the church, it seemed it was always understood that I must appear in control, never showing any weaknesses. To me, emotions seemed like weaknesses. A friend was telling me about the Easter sermon yesterday in his church. He said the pastorís scripture was finding the tomb empty and the focus was totally on the awe and the joy of finding out Jesus was alive. He said the congregation really caught it and rejoiced in the risen Savior. Thinking back, I can NEVER remember an Adventist sermon that would suggest such an emotional response to anything. Here is how God started to transform me: 1) God directed me to a verse-by-verse study of the book of Acts. That led me to understand the Holy Spirit in a way that had been totally foreign to me before. Recognizing that the Holy Spirit wanted to personally intervene and direct my life totally transformed me. 2) The Holy Spirit directed me to start surrounding myself with music. For me, this was praise and worship music that was much more contemporary than what I had been used to. 3) On a vacation in Jamaica I remember sitting on my veranda with my Bible, crying out to God to understand him better. I clearly was directed to understand and learn about praise with the promise that then the Lord would show me how to worship. Worship had always been an intellectual pursuit up to that time and I didnít even recognize it was to be anything different. I didnít have a clue about the power available in praise. 4) Journaling. This was so not me, but I started doing it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hopefully something here will help you hear from God specifically for your needs. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hi and thanks "PraiseGod" for your message. Yes, it was always incredibly important in my family to be "right"--much more important than feeling anything or stopping to smell the roses. So I have an inherent distrust of anything that is too "touchy/feely" or that is "tainted" with emotions. I find myself being in my head too much and not in my heart. It's hard to retreat from that when my personality naturally lends itself that way AND when it's been reinforced all these years by Adventist idealogy (notice I didn't say theology!) In fact my getting out of Adventism was purely an intellectual experience. I read the Ellen White.org website, plus some materials from Proclamation, had a giant "ah-ha" experience and basically decided intellectually that I had to leave. Of course that left the larger dilemma of who was I and where did I belong? I also wondered for a while if I believed in God. Every major anchor in my life had just slipped away or was proven to be false. So I constantly fight the battle of being in my head too much and distrusting my emotions. I still don't know how to listen for the HOly Spirit or even to pray effectively--the latter meaning that it has meaning for me. I listen with envy to other Christians who talk about their experiential relationship with God. I KNOW that part of my problem is that, being type A, I am not allowing enough time in my schedule for meditating, reading and praying. So I partly need to address that by allotting more time for that. God probably can't reach a busy person so well!!! But even when I try I don't find that I can listen well for His voice. Thanks everyone for listening. Connie Godenick | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2004 |
Connie, if you've not already taken the course or read the book, pick up the workbook entitled Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby. That is an excellent place to start learning how to hear from God personally. The fact that it's an interactive workbook is very helpful to our personality style. I understand everything you saying here. Let us know how it goes. Are you in a new church yet? Praise God... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 157 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praisegod, I was so struck by your observations about God directing you to praise and worship music. I had the same experience. In fact, I've found that it's a great help to have praise music on in the house when I'm working. I also understand your analytical approach to belief, Connie. I always distrusted people who were emotional about God--and quite frankly, there are still some types of emotional approaches to God that make me very uncomfortable. I've found that as God has guided me to truth, it has made intellectual sense as well as spiritual sense. It's that spiritual sense that's new. I never understood how to "hear" the Holy Spirit. What I've found is that as I've literally sat with the Bible and have taken the time to do inductive study--maybe only one verse or two out of a chapter a day--armed with a concordance and a means of taking notes, I've begun to understand and know things in a way that I never have before. The Holy Spirit Who is ALREADY IN YOU will make the Bible come alive as you study. After all, He wrote it! I've discovered that the more I continue to study the Bible, the more I have a sense of knowing and loving Jesus. I also have found that I've become able to decide objectively to trust God to provide insights and wisdom when I'm in situations I don't know how to handle. I've often found myself beginning to feel inadquate or frustrated, and when I mentally give the situation to Him and ask Him to give me his insight and words, I can respond without doubt or fear because I know that I can trust him to help me. I just accept the words and ideas that I have then to be the things He wants me to say. Of course, this approach doesn't work if I don't stay praying in my head. The minute I start to think I know the answers, I'm in trouble. For me, getting to know Jesus has involved a lot of surrender in my head. I'm not sure if what I've said makes sense to anyone else; I'm afraid it sounds vague and idealistic. It's not easy to surrender and to allow God to fill your head and heart, because we don't always know what he will "sound" like. But He is faithful to reveal himself and his will. WE can absolutely trust him! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2003 |
On the heart vs. head thing. When I was first coming out of Adventism I experienced God in a powerfully emotional way. I often cried (in a good way) over the smallest things that would just touch my heart as they never had before. I still experience this from time to time, but it has mellowed somewhat. I have become more and more passionate about digging really deeply into scripture. I experience the Holy Spirit in a profound way when I'm studying. Sometimes when the Spirit sddenly makes something in the Word clear for me, my heart leaps and I praise God right there and then. I have a sister (also a former SDA) who is at times a bit critical of me because in her opinion I don't "move in the Spirit" and am not "Spirit Filled". By this she means that I have never experienced things like "Holy Laughter" or being "Slain in the Spirit". Sadly, she cannot find a church to worship at in all of Southern CA becasue none of the them "move in the Spirit" to the degree she feels they should. So most weekends she stays home and worships by herself. I struggled with this balance for a long time. One part of me wanted to be more like my sister, pursuing external manifestations of the Spirit and feeling God's power up close and personal. But a much larger part of me felt irresistably drawn to discovering God through the pages of scripture and to developing the tools, knowledge, and expertise I would need to rightly handle the word and teach others. Now after being out for over 3 years, I'm finding that I'm comfortable with who God made me. I can be a tool for Him to use. I'm not necessarily like every other tool in the box, but then what kind of tool box would have nothing but hammers in it? I experience the Spirit in very real and meaningful ways that truly move me and yet I will probably never be quite as demonstrative and uninhibited as my sister. I've come to believe that's okay, and probably is just as God planned it. Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 270 Registered: 7-2003 |
I also used to struggle to "hear" God, but I used to think I was very "intuitive" because so often, I had these senses or feelings about things and they always turned out to be right. Then I was doing a Bible study about the Holy Spirit so I could learn to "hear" him and realized I had been hearing him all along, I just didn't recognize it. It's still hard to follow that quiet intuitive-type voice when the world is so much louder and many times makes much more "sense" at first glance, but as I've given myself over to trusting the Spirit more and more, I've never been mislead. I don't hear directives every day the same way, but there have been times God has awaken me in the middle of the night to show me a passage about a topic I was particularly puzzled by and it became quite exciting when I first began to recognize that was God speaking to little ole me. As Chris said, it took me a while to understand the balance, but I'm still learning. I guess if I'm done learning, I don't have much use any more. Jesus said seek and you will find... the more you seek God, he will become more evident to you and you will begin to recognize the fingerprints he has already put on your life. The rest is a process...life long. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2003 |
A few mornings ago, as I was just waking up, it was as if in my dream I was instructed to read John chapter six. I got up and kept having this thought that I needed to read this chapter. So before I woke my kids, I read John 6. Jesus was saying in this chapter, "Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. for the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world... I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall neve hunger and hd that believeth on me shall never thirst." John 6:31-33,35 Later that morning when I was reading our Bible lesson with my kids, it was about the Isrealites getting manna from heaven! I knew now where to go in the New Testement and show my children Who the true bread of life is, what the manna represented. When I was younger and studied this story from an SDA perspective, the fact that they weren't supposed to gather on Sabbath was the main thing stressed. I think that maybe God was showing me the most important point of this Old Testament story so I could share it with my children. "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I AM THE LIVING BREAD which came down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."John 6:50, 51 thank you Jesus!! I'm learning to listen. Sometimes when I get those still, small promptings to read or look up something, i counter with "I'm too tired, I have other things to do, etc...." I am learning very slowly that these promptings may hold a tremendous blessing as this last one did. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 161 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh, that is a wonderful story. What a great lesson for your children; I also learned the manna story as a Sabbath-keeping story, but you are right; it's a story about Jesus! It overwhelms me sometimes when I realize how personally God constructs each or our experiences. I'm convinced that one of the things He does when we finally surrender our lives to him is to give us back our emotions. He heals the wounds we've hidden in our hearts, and he enables us to feel, not just "know", what's going on in our lives. He really does make us whole--not just spiritually whole, but psychologically whole. His work in us takes all of our lives, but we can experience his grace and love and discipline and intervention from the moment we accept him. He really does grow us from immature Christians into increasingly mature ones--but it's He that does it, not we by our self-discipline! Praise God for his restoring love! Colleen | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2004 |
Appreciate everyone's comments. I'm going to get the Experiencing God book by Blackaby. IT's great to have this forum to express thoughts. Although I don't want to define myself forever as a "former SDA" it still helps even 3 years out to read the discussions and realize that others have dealt with the same issues. Misery still loves company! And, it's also so inspiring to read how so many of you have truly broken the bonds of legalism and intellectualism and have found a wonderful relationship with God. That's my goal and reading your stories makes me sure that I will be there some day myself! |
