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Hoytster
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Username: Hoytster

Post Number: 62
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's been 10 days since anyone has posted on this topic. I've been looking forward to seeing reviews from y'all as you see the movie. Has anyone gone?

I met some people for dinner last night, mostly strangers affiliated with a singles club. One was a Christian who found the movie awesome and moving; she strongly recommended that I see it.

These days, I frequently look for God's hand, and I left wondering if God's purpose in having me go to that dinner was to hear her encouragement.

Any opinions from you who have seen the movie?

Thanks, Hoytster
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 246
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw it. It was "good" in the sense of being emotionally impactful. I'm glad I didn't take my 11 year old son. It would have been too much for him. I went home and restudied the gospel accounts again because of the order of some things, so that helped solidify some things there. I learned some jewish traditions as mentioned about the blood. I believe it is Isaiah that say he was unrecognizable, and they went a long way to making that reality seem likely. I heard someone else say they were glad to see they made Christ a real man, and not some whimp. He was a carpenter, afterall, and probably a very strong man. It was quite a price ... I didn't have nightmares, though I did cover my eyes a time or two. And I can't even begin to touch the spiritual impact.
Dennisrainwater
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Username: Dennisrainwater

Post Number: 81
Registered: 8-2000
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Hoyster,

I've seen it twice (once with my christian neighbor and once with an agnostic coworker), and I urge you to see it. But then, you probably saw that one coming, didn't you? ;-)

All kidding aside, while it is certainly not a "pleasant" experience, it was definitely one of the most profound moments of my entire life. I will never forget it -- indeed, I don't think my Christian experience will ever be the same.

The first time I saw it, Scott (my neighbor) and I returned home together from the film -- and through a 25 minute drive, we spoke no more than a dozen words to each other. I heard later that he did the same thing I did when he got inside his house -- I avoided all family, went straight to my bedroom, fell to my knees and sobbed like a baby for some time.

It hurt to see my Lord scorned and disrespected and abused like that. But that He did it for ME was beyond my comprehension. In the fractional way that I CAN grasp that reality, it totally changes the way I look at myself. We hear so much in pop-psychology about self-esteem -- but CHRIST-esteem is infinitely more powerful. That he regarded you and me as so lovely, so desirable, so VALUABLE, that He was willing to endure THAT -- to get my attention, so that I might choose Him and we could share eternity... It forever alters how I see myself. How I see others. How I see the compelling honor to tell others about this love-affair... And most certainly how I see HIM!

It compelled an overwhelming sense of Gratitude.

My wife and I have found that we see relevance in the Gospels now that we had missed before. She says that the phrase "His blood was SHED" takes on a whole new sphere of meaning for her now. For myself, I especially appreciated how Mel handled the scenes with Pilate. Pilate, at least in the movie, was trying SO hard to give Jesus an "out" -- to get Jesus to give him an excuse to let Him off the hook... But Jesus refused to 'help Pilate out'. It drove home the point to me that Jesus CHOSE this... This wasn't something that was happening **TO** Jesus. It was something that Jesus had chosen to HAVE THEM DO. Jesus wasn't the victim. He was the Choreographer!!

I think it would move you, Hoytster. I agree with James Dobson -- I think (almost) "everyone" should see this movie.

As the other Dennis often says --

In AWE of Calvary,
Den <><
Dennis
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Post Number: 46
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Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Sunday School class, known as the LIFE TRACK CLASS, is taking a three-week leave from the study of the Book of Genesis to review THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST movie. We utilize the coordinated workbook/video course designed and taught by Rick Warren, the senior pastor of Saddleback Community Church. After the video presentation, filling in our workbooks, and remarks by our teacher, we break into smaller groups to discuss the salvational aspects the movie didn't address. Our class meets for 75 minutes weekly.

Dennis, your heartfelt, inspiring testimony is the first one I read from someone who had viewed Mel Gibson's movie twice. Sylvia and I are also thinking about seeing it again.

Dennis J. Fischer
Dennisrainwater
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Post Number: 82
Registered: 8-2000
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, THAT Dennis.....

;-)
Dennisrainwater
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Username: Dennisrainwater

Post Number: 83
Registered: 8-2000
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sincerely, I'd like to sit in on that class with you, Dennis. I'm sure that will be very challenging and encouraging.

If you have some time, could you e-mail me at denrainwater@bellsouth.net? I'd like to get your take on some details of that course material -- outside the scope of a public forum...

Thanks in advance,
Den <><
Steve
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Username: Steve

Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those of you near Riverside, CA, the Riverside Community Church (aka, Seventh-day Adventist church) is giving free tickets to a showing this Sunday. Following the movie, "Pastor Tami will be on hand to answer your questions in the theater after the showing."

Call (909) 686-1886 to arrange a pick-up time for your tickets, or stop by the church office (before noon, tomorrow [Friday]) and get 2 free tickets per family.
_________________________________________________

Personally, I would only want to go with the SDA church to see how they explain what they viewed, rather than allowing the experience to be used by the Holy Spirit.

The little I know about Tami, I'm sure she'll do her best to intellectualize and dismiss aspects of the movie.

Who knows. But if anyone wants to deplete the SDA church of free tickets, or infiltrate enemy ground, it'd be a good chance to do so.

Me? I'm working Sunday. (And Saturday!)

Steve
Doc
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Username: Doc

Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2004 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The film is premiered here (Hungary) this weekend, and after hearing so many views on it, I certainly intend to go.

Adrian
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 4:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Personally, I love Godís sense of humor that he used a Catholic to get people to view a movie that has the potential for bringing many to Jesus or at the very least, planting seeds for the future. Itís not only SDAs whoíve had problems with Catholics. Iím posting some of what a good friend of mine put out on an e-mail list she has. She is Pentecostal in beliefs.
_____________

"When I saw a credible interview with Mel Gibson, he tied his faith to catholicism. I don't mind to tell you -- that gave me a bit of a start. Catholics and evangelicals are at opposite ends of most theological areas, most of the time. How would he tell the story that is central to the faith of countless people? Would it contain scenes that would be at odds with evangelical faith? What would be Mary's place in the movie, if any? Would she be portrayed as the mother of Jesus or idolized as deity?

"Today I saw the movie. I am now absolutely convinced that this story needed to be told by a person of the Catholic faith.

REASONS WHY A CATHOLIC SHOULD TELL THE STORY

"Right out of the gate, it seemed obvious that -- if properly portrayed -- Evangelicals would go see a movie about Christ, as told by a Catholic. I am not sure how comfortable Catholics would be if the situation was reversed.

"More than that, however, is the WAY the story was told. Jesus is absolutely portrayed as being more than willing to die for the sins of mankind. And Mary is shown as His mother, and not as a god herself. The relationship of mother and son was well developed in the story line. This is an area that likely would not have well examined by someone from outside the Catholic faith. We in Evangelical circles have seemed afraid to explore this relationship due to Mary worship in the Catholic church. We may well have omitted an important facet of the story of God's redemptive plan for humanity.

THE MARY "PROBLEM"?

"Forgive me for being blunt. I suppose I could tap dance around the wording, and be far more diplomatic about the whole issue. It just doesn't occur to me that our subscribers are so delicate, that they need to have something this important wrapped in tissue paper.

"Jesus communes with the Father continuously throughout the movie. I loved that. He has a running conversation with Abba from the opening scene to his last breath on the cross. He is entirely God.

"He is also entirely man, shuddering in the garden of Gethsemane at the horrors awaiting him -- just hours away. Satan comes to mock him in the garden. Among the taunting things he says, while Jesus is calling on the Father, is "Who is your father?" The question obviously insinuates that Jesus was conceived through an illegitimate relationship. To the very end, there is an attempt to undermine Christ's legitimacy, and Mary's true virginity. These are crucial pieces in the salvation plan.

"In my opinion, the whole role of Mary may have been blithely glossed over if someone other than a Catholic had directed the movie. Mary plays a prominent part in the story line of The Passion. She is strong, and she is numb. She can't get to her son to stop the violence, but he is laid in her waiting arms upon his death.

"I have seen the actual statue of The Pietas, showing Mary holding her dead son. It always seemed like just another piece of Catholic sculpture to me...until today.

"When Jesus is talking to God at one point in the movie, He speaks about Himself and His mother, referring to her as "Your handmaiden." In Evangelical circles, we sometimes think we are bringing balance to the whole deification of Mary by fairly ignoring her role in God's plan. That is not truly consistent with scripture, though. She laid her life down - literally - when she gave her consent to become the virgin mother of Christ.

"A pregnant virgin? Right.

"Even though all knew the prophecies, it was easier to continue looking for the fulfillment, rather than believe it was being fulfilled. This sweet teenage girl is pregnant, but insisting she's never been with a man? "Get the stones," would have been the sure consequence for such a claim. Mary knew the risk she was taking when she submitted herself to the Holy Spirit.

"You know how my brain operates -- I BECOME the story, and each character in it. But the whole idea of a first-person encounter of such magnitude escapes me. I couldn't even get it out of the driveway. I'm not sure I was ever pure enough to be a candidate for the mother of the Christ. Everything after that is mootÖ

"And even on the cross, Jesus is mindful of his responsibilities for his mother. He makes sure the transference of relational authority is given to John the Beloved for Mary's care. He is dripping with blood, twitching with agony, and conscientiously seeing to it that his mother is cared for upon his death.

"As to the whole "anti-semitic" controversy....

"The movie communicates the brutality of crucifixion. It shows a mixed mob of people -- those who were Jews and Gentiles. Both groups had those calling for Christ's crucifixion, and those begging for the madness to end. If there was going to be any run-off racism, I think it would be toward the Romans. They were told repeatedly to pull back in their drunken torture. They slackened momentarily, but there was never a sign of restraint. They were told to render a severe beating, but they tortured Him nearly to death.

"When He was given the cross, He embraced it! He wasn't taken against His will at any point, and that is well-established. The whole issue of anti-semitism is what the Talking Heads have contrived to foment irrational fear. The Jews didn't murder Christ. He laid down His life. And it certainly occurs to me that if the Jews hadn't driven the whole crucifixion, others would have. And it may have been worse.

WHAT ABOUT THE VIOLENCE?

"This is the only time I have EVER seen a disclaimer posted for parents to read at the box-office. The Regency 20 theater cautioned parents to be aware that the movie has scenes of brutality, and suggested that the movie may not be well suited for children. That is wise, but I have seen movies that should never have been shown in a public theater in the first place, that didn't have such a disclaimer.

"Some people are concerned about the level of violence that our media has warned us about. Guess what? While the scenes are realistic, I would definitely NOT say they are graphic. Jesus' body is thoroughly beaten, but his visage is far from what is described in scripture. It also is not quite in keeping with medical opinions about what He would look like after the Roman scourging. According to some doctors, his bones would have been fully exposed, his intestines possibly hanging out, strips of his flesh ripped away, etc. The book of Isaiah states flatly that He would hardly look human after the beatings.

"The movie does show an extensive scene of the beatings by the Romans, but it is a LONG WAY from He would have looked. The scene goes on for quite awhile, and it is very uncomfortable to watch. BUT - I never felt it was "crossing the line" at any point. It could have gone much further showing the end result of the torture, but the point is made without gratuitous gore.

"Before I left the theater, I sat alone while the cleaning crews came in to ready the room for the next sell-out showing. I was praying, asking God for a massive in-gathering of harvest as a result of this film..."

Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 116
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 1:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We also saw the movie twice; once just with our family, and the next time with another couple.

I agree with Dennisrainwater's wife; that movie has changed the way I think about his shed blood and his suffering. I was overwhelmed with the intensity of his prolonged suffering--which he endured without passing out. I remember thinking, "He was strengthened so he could suffer more--for our sake." I was deeply moved--both times--at the realization that Jesus not only died for our sins, he suffered physical assault NOT intended to kill him as a redemption of the pain and transgressions we have suffered at the hands of others.

I was also riveted by the Pilate scenes--not only because it was clear that Jesus was choosing his death, but because the dialogue between Pilate and his wife so clearly highlighted the chasm between those who want to know truth and those who don't.

As the torture progressed, I found myself absolutely convicted and overwhelmed that this suffering was MINE, and sat there crying and praying that I would not dishonor or betray him.

Yes, Hoytster, I recommend that you see it. As someone else also said, it seems that those who don't know Jesus are the ones who object to the brutality. Those who do, find it powerful, convicting, and--well--priceless.

After our first viewing, we sat glued to our seats until the last credit had rolled and the last note of the music had stopped. A sixty-something man was sitting on the other side of Richard with his eyes closed, and when the music died away, he quietly said, "Amen". It was a benediction for all of us.

Colleen
Cindy
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Username: Cindy

Post Number: 552
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2004 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To me, seeing Jesus portrayed in this film is both horrible and wonderful at the same time.

The first time I saw it (on the opening weekend) there was a tense incident that happened:

A woman sitting somewhat in front of us began the movie by reading out loud (!) the subtitles.

It WAS annoying and we were thinking of how to politely get her to be quiet when suddenly one of the two men sitting next to my son leaned over to the woman and said loudly and angrily, "will you just shut the f*** up"?!!

Well, she turned around and they were arguing back and forth. (Meanwhile, the Satan figure on the screen was taunting Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane).

It was not pleasant, to say the least! The theater was fairly full and I sat there wondering if this was just the beginning of more demonic activity...(this being my first experience with the "Passion" movie.)

Anyway, the man then jumped up, saying he was going to get the manager! In less than 5 minutes he was back, quickly telling the other guy to leave with him...that they would go to the next showing (starting just 1/2 hour later).

I have wondered about the circumstances that brought that man to the movie...and if later he and the woman ever talked anymore.

Actually, after that incident she was quiet--no more reading out loud!

(I also went twice to see the "Passion"; may go once more tomorrow.)

grace always,
cindy
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 48
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Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sylvia and I went to see THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST movie for the second time last Sunday afternoon. A couple from our church, that also viewed the movie with us for the second time, brought all their employees to see it. Truly, this is business evangelism in the highest rank.

In awe of Calvary,

Dennis J. Fischer

Sabra
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Username: Sabra

Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2004 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Finally saw it Sunday,

I found it pretty scripturally accurate and far from a Catholic portrayal. Had a Catholic tried to present a Catholic view, he should have omitted the scene of Cephias tearing his robe, rendering Jesus the new High Priest, which is such an important part of the transferring of the earthly priesthood. Also, he included the scene just before Jesus' death where He referred to Mary as Woman, and told her to behold her son and John his mother. Indicating that she was just a woman that had fulfilled her part in this great story.

As for the artist's interpretations and additions: I felt Satan displayed was probable in every scene. We do not have direct scripture to support it, but in Gethsemane Jesus kept telling the disciples to remain alert to avoid temptation. As for Jesus falling from a bridge, well, He slipped and never really hit the ground, the chains kept Him from hitting and it was more of a ditch than a bridge. As for the children that "tormented" Judas. I felt that they were normal children that stopped to ask him if he was hurt and the rest after that was Judas' imagination, due to his condemned and tormented state, the artist's interpretation of a possesed person.

I loved the flashbacks to Jesus' life.

There were a few things I thought should have been displayed: The people raised from the dead at His death, the ripping of the veil in the temple at His death, and the soldier saying that "Surely, this was the Son of God."

In all, it was an amazing story, the Good News, the saving blood of Jesus. A story that was prophesied long ago to be preached to entire world before He comes again. A last call, in my opinion, to mankind from a longsuffering God, unwilling that any should perish. Everyone should see it, without a doubt.

When they were accusing Jesus of using majic and demons to heal, I thought, much hasn't changed in 2000 years, those who know Him recognize Him while those that "know it all" can't even see Him working in the theater down the street from them, say it's some Catholic trying to deceive the world.
Doug222
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Username: Doug222

Post Number: 489
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 7:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I was an Adventist, I subscribed to a newsgroup that provided a weekly commentary on the Sabbath School lesson. I just realized that I am still getting e-mails from them (every so often I just go in and delete any e-mails I do not plan to read). Anyway, this one caught my eye. This was the author's rebuttal to our friend Dr. B.'s review of The Passion. The author is an Adventist lawyer, but did not shrink back from taking Dr. B to task. Its a little long, but a great response.


quote:

Mel v. Sam: The Passion of The Christ

Who would have thought that Mel Gibson would turn out to be the top evangelist in the United States and most of the world? "Mad Max" morphs into Billy Graham!

Yet that is precisely what has happened. Mel Gibsons The Passion of the Christ, is a movie that focuses on the last twelve hours of Jesus life on this earth. Mel has gotten the entire western world talking about our Savior and His death for our sins. How did he do it? His movie has been a major topic of discussion in all of the major media for the last two months. It ranked in the top five movies of all time for first day attendance.

Before the movie was released, I was invited to a private showing. I attended and came away loving my Savior more than ever before. This movie may spark a world-wide revival in Christianity. The timing is perfect. With Islam on the rise, Christians need to be reminded of the centrality of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for our sins.

Of course, the "usual suspects," those who oppose the cause of Christ, have been viciously attacking Mel and his movie. Little wonder. Jesus predicted such things:

John 15:18-19

18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

(from New International Version)

Just recently, I have been hearing from some "unusual suspects." These are individuals who have been promoting the cause of Christ but are attacking The Passion of The Christ. Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, a theology professor who retired from teaching at Andrews University, published a slashing attack on Mel Gibsons movie. He had not seen the movie, so I wrote to Sam telling him he was incompetent to critique the movie. Sam dutifully went to a theater, saw the movie and issued an even more slashing attack on the movie this week.

You subscribe to the GoBible Bible Study of the Week because you are a Christian and want to teach others about God or learn more yourself. Unless you write to us, we have no way of knowing anything more about you than that. However, it is my feeling that many of our GoBible subscribers also subscribe to Sam Bacchiocchis newsletter which discusses various religious topics. If you have never heard of Sam, then you can turn to something else. But if you know Sam and respect his opinions you should read on.

Sam Bacchiocchi is a respected theologian and author. Sam and I do not always agree on theology, but I admire and appreciate some of his valuable work.

The reason why I take this most unusual step of sending a letter (rather than a Bible study) to you, a GoBible subscriber, is that I fear that you will read Sams slashing attack on The Passion and thus refuse to see this movie.

I encourage every adult to go see this movie because it is more effective than all of my Bible studies put together in bringing people face to face with the incredible love and sacrifice of our Savior. The movie is beyond words.

Sam starts out his attack on the movie by noting "that the average person lacks both the biblical and historical knowledge needed to evaluate its accuracy." Sam is certainly right that he is more knowledgeable about the Bible and church history than 99% of the population. However, his implied conclusion that we should defer to his judgment on The Passion is not correct. The text of the gospels is available to everyone who views the movie. The "average person" is able to compare the movie with the Bible text and determine whether the movie is a reasonable portrayal of the Biblical events.

Just as important, superior knowledge does not always result in correct conclusions. Knowledge must be subjected to critical thinking to reach a right result. Sam has the advantage over me and his "average person" in that he is a formally educated theologian. I have an advantage over Sam and the average person in that my doctorate in law formally trained me in critical thinking. Im not asking you to accept my opinion based on my educational background, I am simply asking you to consider the arguments and decide for yourself.

This article is not about Sam and me. Instead, this letter is about you and your decision about seeing this remarkable, potentially life-changing film.

If you have read Sams newsletters about The Passion and have decided not to see the movie, I ask you to read what follows. I have taken Sams major attacks on the movie, which were contained in his most recent newsletter, and responded to them.

Can Any Good Thing Come Out of Nazareth? Sam repeatedly attacks The Passion based on the fact that Gibson is Catholic and the Catholic Church supports the film. Almost every criticism that Sam has of this film he manages turn into an attack on Catholic theology. Is it fair to say that Mel Gibson is a Catholic and therefore he cannot create an accurate depiction of the last few hours of Jesus life on earth?

You will recall that when Nathanael was told that Jesus came from Nazareth he asked (John 1:46) if anything good could come from Nazareth? Nathanael had doubts about Jesus because of His background. The Bible answer is applicable here:

John 1:46

"Come and see," said Philip.

(from New International Version)

You should see the film and decide for yourself. Arguing that Catholics like the film and thus we should avoid it is like arguing that prominent Jewish organizations have viciously attacked the film and therefore we should see it. The fact that some Catholics like the film and some Jews hate it, should not cause anyone to conclude that the merits of the film should be determined by its friends (or enemies). If this were valid logic, it would mean that Sam was aligned with Jewish theology. No one who has read his writings would think that.

Instead of condemning the film based on its friends, the film needs to be judged on its own merits.

Sam unfairly attacks the film for being anti-Semitic. I did not see that in the film and I doubt you will either. I certainly agree that we should be very careful not to needlessly offend Jews. Yet I wish that Sam were one-quarter as solicitous for our fellow Christian brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church as he is for our Jewish friends. Any Catholic reading Sams review of the The Passion would shudder.


This is not to say that we should blind our eyes to the theology of the film maker. The fact that Mel Gibson is a Christian and a Catholic should make us alert to potential doctrinal conflicts. However, it should not cause us to find Catholic theology lurking where it does not exist.

The Movie Inflates Jesus Suffering: Time and time again Sam repeats his argument that the movie shows Jesus suffering more than He actually did. According to Sam, "what shocked me the most is the relentless torture of Christs body." Here is an example of this type of charge which Sam repeatedly makes:

"The brutality of flogging with switches and cat-o-nine-tails, blows out of proportions [sic] the physical suffering of Christ in order to promote the Catholic imitation of His suffering as a way of salvation."

Another example is this:

"It is evident that Gibson is determined to blow out of proportion Christ's sufferings in accordance with the Catholic devotion to the Passion."

It seems most curious to me that a minister of the gospel would claim that Jesus suffering "was not that bad." That His suffering could somehow be "blown out of proportion." I can picture Sam entering heaven and meeting Jesus for the first time. Jesus says, "Oh, I know who you are - youre that guy who argued that my last hours on earth `were not that bad." Those are not words I want said to me!

Is it possible that the movie makes it appear Jesus suffered more than He did? Here is what the Bible says about the temptations Jesus faced:

Hebrews 4:14-16

15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.

(from New International Version)

Hebrews 2:17-18

18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

(from New International Version)

This means that Jesus faced every temptation and trial that humans have ever faced. Do you really think that Satan gave Jesus "a pass" on suffering and tempted and tried ordinary humans more than Jesus? Such a conclusion makes no sense for the entire outcome of the controversy between good and evil rode on the shoulders of Jesus during those final hours. No doubt the full fury of Satans wrath was poured out on our Savior.

Consider then what the Bible reports ordinary Christians suffered at the hands of Satan:

Hebrews 11:35-38

Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

(from New International Version)

The Bible tells us that followers of Jesus have been "sawed in two" at the hands of Satan and his followers. Is what is depicted in The Passion worse than being sawed in two? I did not think so.

How many of you have read of sadistic humans who torture and then behead children? Does a follower of God have any doubt about the source of such evil? Are some humans more evil than Satan, the author of evil? Of course not.

Is there any doubt that Satan "pulled out all the stops" when it came to attacking Jesus during those final hours which were critical to the battle between him and Jesus? Nothing was "below" Satan in those hours.

That Jesus received a hellish beating is revealed by the fact that He could no longer carry His cross. Consider that Jesus was a young man, in the prime of life, a man who must have been in excellent physical condition because He walked everywhere. Yet the gospels reveal:

Mark 15:21

21 A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.

(from New International Version)

What kind of beating would it have taken to render Jesus incapable of carrying His cross - obviously the kind of beating that Gibson portrays in his movie.

Sams charge that portraying Jesus suffering in its true light somehow promotes Catholic theology is simply mind-boggling. If Catholics believe that Jesus suffering was extreme, and Protestants think the reports were "overblown," then I think the Catholics have it right! However, as Sam points out in his article, popular Protestants agree that Gibsons portrayal is accurate. Thus the issue is not "Catholics v. Protestants," it is "Chistians v. Sam."

When we are informed by the Bible and logic, it becomes clear that Mel Gibson could not have created an "R rated" film which really showed us what happened to Jesus during the last twelve hours of His life. Gibsons film, without any doubt, fails to show the full fury of Satan and his followers directed towards our Lord.

Gibson added stuff: Sams next charge is that Mel Gibson added stuff to his film from non-Biblical sources. Here is an example of Sams charges:

"What are the major sources of the film, the Gospels or the Catholic mystical literature? The answer is readily available, because Gibson himself openly admits that the movie is based not only on the Gospels, but also on the visions of two Catholic nun-mystics St. Anne Catherine Emmerich and Mary of Agreda."

Any student of the gospel knows that the accounts contained in them are very abridged statements of what actually happened. Consider what John said about this:

John 21:25

25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

(from New International Version)

John tells us that the gospels are significantly abridged!

All of the gospels put together add up to around 200 pages of text. That means each account of Jesus life covers only about 50 pages. That is not much - about a page and a half per year of Jesus life. That the account of the last twelve hours of His life should be abridged in the Bible should come as no surprise.

It is more than a little strange that Sam would attack Mels movie because it added information from non-Biblical sources. At the end of his attack, Sam favorably cites as an accurate source Ellen Whites book, The Great Controversy. Ellen White wrote a book on the life of Jesus called The Desire of Ages. It is a great book and it runs 835 pages. Obviously, for White to inflate a 50 page Biblical account into 835 pages required the addition of not a small amount of additional stuff - and all from non-Biblical sources. Since Sam would undoubtedly recommend the reading of the Desire of Ages notwithstanding its non-Biblical additions, the mere elaboration of a gospel story is not an adequate ground for criticism. The relevant question is not whether Gibson "added stuff," but whether what he added is inconsistent with, or detracts from, the gospel account?

Whites book, The Desire of Ages, substantially undercuts Sams criticisms for another very important reason. My first year of law school I rented a basement apartment from a family who lived near the school. My landlords elderly father was an avid follower of Edgar Cayce. Cayce was a prominent psychic who claimed to be able to predict the future. Since this elderly man was "into" the future, I gave him a copy of Whites The Great Controversy because it contains Bible-based predictions about the future. The old man read this long book and came back with only one terse comment, "Shes pretty hard on Catholics." It was true that White did not write very favorably about the Catholic Church.

The irony of all of this is that the "added stuff" in Mels movie, which Sam argues promotes Catholic theology, is often the same "added stuff" that White includes in The Desire of Ages. No one who is acquainted with Whites writings would harbor even the slightest suspicion that she was promoting Catholic theology! Lets look at some examples of the "added stuff" next.

Chains, Dirt, Snakes and Riots: Sam seizes upon several "facts" in the movie, which are not specifically recited in any of the gospel accounts, as proof the film is suspect or a carrier for "Catholic" theology. Sam writes:

"No SUPER MAN could have endured the blows inflicted to Christ in the movie, including being thrown off a bridge while bound to a huge 3 inch thick chain, strong enough to pull a train. It surprises me that Gibson never went to see the Church of St. Peter in Chain in Rome, where the alleged chain of Peter's imprisonment are [sic] displayed. Those chains are four times smaller than the ones used in the movie."

In more than one place Sam objects to the size of the chains in the movie. Since no one knows the actual size of the chains used on Jesus (or even if there were chains) the relevance of the size of the chains escapes me. Surely chain size does not undercut the gospel accounts.

Sam also complains that the movie shows a furious crowd (which Sam terms a "riot") around Jesus. Sam argues that the Bible shows a much more peaceful scene. He quotes Luke and then comments:

"This doesn't sound like the depiction of a crazy riot, nor does Christ's injunction sound like the sort of thing shouted over a melee."

Compare the relative peace Sam envisions with Whites description of the event in The Desire of Ages:

"When the condemnation of Jesus was pronounced by the judges, a Satanic fury took possession of the people. The roar of voices was like that of wild beasts. The crowd made a rush toward Jesus, crying, He is guilty, put Him to death! Had it not been for the Roman soldiers, Jesus would not have lived to be nailed to the cross of Calvary. He would have been torn in pieces before His judges, had not Roman authority interfered, and by force of arms restrained the violence of the mob."

D.A. p. 714

White recites a similar event later in the day:

"Like wild beasts, the crowd darted upon their prey. Jesus was dragged this way and that; Herod joining the mob in seeking to humiliate the Son of God. Had not the Roman soldiers interposed, and forced back the maddened throng, the Saviour would have been torn in pieces."

D.A. p. 731

Sam argues that Gibson showed a riot scene to sell tickets or promote some Catholic agenda. What reason did White have for painting an essentially similar picture? Indeed, Whites picture of Jesus before Herod is much more violent than Gibsons portrayal before Herod. The reason why White portrays a violent mob is that showing a riotous mob is consistent with the gospel accounts.

Sam also takes exception to the way the movie depicts Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He writes that Jesus:

"looks frightening, covered with mud or grease over his hair and face. He looks as if He just came out of a mud pit. Why should Christ look so dirty and greasy when He had just finished eating the Passover meal with His disciples?"

Here is what the gospel of Luke tells us:

Luke 22:43-44

44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

(from New International Version)

How would someone look who was sweating blood? Like he just finished a nice meal in a restaurant? If a person where under such stress that they actually sweated blood, then it seems most reasonable that they would not only look a little frightening, but would seem to have something like "mud or grease" on their face. Indeed, what Jesus had on His face was blood mixed with sweat. Sams picture of Jesus looking as if He had just eaten a peaceful meal is completely at odds with the gospel report.

Once again, Ellen White agrees with Mel Gibson. She recounts that when Jesus spoke to His disciples in Gethsemane "they hardly knew Him, His face was so changed by anquish." D.A. p. 689 Later she continues, "[The disciples] saw His face marked with the bloody sweat of agony, and they were filled with fear."

To support her extra-Biblical description of Jesus face, White cites Isaiah:

Isaiah 52:14

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him--his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness-

(from New International Version)

Quite obviously, White and Gibson reached virtually identical conclusions on how Jesus looked in Gethsemane. Gibsons portrayal can hardly be some sort of Catholic plot.

Sam also complains that Satan is depicted in the movie and that Jesus crushes the head of a snake. Sam writes:

"But Christ stands and crushes the serpent head. There is no question that Satan was hard at work in the final hours of Christ's life, hoping to defeat His redemptive mission. But there are no allusions in the Gospels regarding any physical appearances of Satan during the Passion to incite Jews and Romans against Christ. There are no satanic snakes attempting to bite Christ."

Sam is correct that the gospels do not picture Jesus stamping on the head of a snake. Instead, it is Genesis which makes an allusion to this:

Genesis 3:14-15

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

(from New International Version)

The fact that this allusion to crushing the snake is in Genesis instead of one of the gospels hardly seems a basis for complaint.

As to Sams complaint about depicting Satan as being present, it is obvious that a movie is visual. Does Sam have any doubt that Satan was actually present during the last twelve hours of Jesus life? If so, on what basis can he complain that Mel Gibson shows Satan being present? Consider in this context another of Whites depictions of the scene:

"Satan led the cruel mob in its abuse of the Saviour." D.A. p. 734.

White was not out to sell tickets. She was not out to promote the Catholic Church or its theology. To believe that Satan was present is simple common sense informed by the Bible. If Gibson had not depicted Satan in the movie, those who are not students of the Bible would not have made the connection that Satan was present.

An Absent Mother: Sam bitterly complains that Gibsons film promotes the heresy that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a "co-redemptrix" because she is shown in the film as following Jesus on His way to the cross. Here is what Sam says:

"The exaggerated role of Mary in the movie is totally unbiblical. Contrary to Catholic fiction, what is conspicuous in the Gospels' narrative is the absence of Mary. She appears only once at the Cross when Christ entrusts her to the care of John, saying: "Woman, behold your son!" (John 19:26). Such an impersonal address hardly supports the interaction between Jesus and Mary present throughout the movie."

I am astonished at the lengths to which Sam goes to project Catholic theology into what seems to be a reasonable retelling of the story. Let me ask you parents who read this: If your child were heading towards his death, and you loved your child, would you not want to be as close as possible to your child during the last few hours of your childs life? The answer is obvious - any loving parent would want to be close. Yet Sam unfairly brands the natural desire of every parents heart as some sort of insidious promotion of Catholic theology.

Again, consider what White says about this event:


"The mother of Jesus, supported by John the beloved disciple, had followed the steps of her Son to Calvary. She had seen Him fainting under the burden of the cross, and had longed to place a supporting hand beneath His wounded head, and to bath that brow which had once been pillowed on her bosom." D.A. p. 744.

White recounts the role of Mary in much the same way Gibson recounts it. She says, unlike Sam, that Mary had followed the steps of Jesus all the way to Calvary. Does the fact that White portrays the scene much as does Gibson suggest that she has some hidden agenda to promote Mary worship? The suggestion is ridiculous to those who are acquainted with Whites very strong anti-Catholic statements

The Film is Anti-Semitic: As I mentioned above, I wish Sam were a fraction as solicitous of the feelings of Catholics as he is of Jews. However, an unfair attack on anyone because of religious beliefs is improper.

Sam alleges:

"Gibson makes no effort in his movie to acknowledge the presence of Jews and Romans who believed in Christ and supported Him. Yet a balanced reading of the Gospels shows that there were both"

Sams statement about the Jews and Romans in the movie is simply not accurate. The movie clearly shows that there was dissent in the Sanhedrin over the condemnation of Jesus. The film shows that the sadistic Roman soldiers were acting contrary to the wishes of their supervisor and Pilate. The movie depicts a Jewish bystander offering Jesus water.

At the same time, facts are a hard thing. Clearly the nationality of the people who condemned and put Jesus to death is not a matter of debate if the Bible is accepted as true. The people on the scene were Jews and Romans. It was not the Scots and Norwegians who were present.

Sam ignores the movie and the lessons of the Bible when he claims:

"On the basis of the figures provided by Acts, it is estimated that about half of the Jewish population living in Jerusalem accepted Jesus of Nazareth as their expected Messiah. Thus, it is inaccurate and misleading for Gibson to make the Jewish people as a whole guilty of Christ's death."

The movie never makes any attempt to claim that "the Jewish people as a whole [were] guilty." In addition, the fact that some ultimately accepted Jesus as God does not prevent them from being part of the mob calling for His death. The Bible reports this about the stoning of an early church leader named Stephen:

Acts 8:1

8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.

(from New International Version)

As students of the Bible know, Saul later became the great apostle Paul. The fact that Paul was later converted and became a great warrior for God did not prevent him from supporting the stoning of Stephen.

Consider Whites account of the change in the group:

"Of the multitude that followed the Saviour to Calvary, many had attended Him with joyful hosannas and the waving of palm branches, as He rode triumphantly into Jerusalem. But not a few who had then shouted His praise because it was popular to do so, now swelled the cry of `Crucify Him! Crucify Him." D.A. 743


Obviously, White believed that the crowd was fickle since she painted a picture of the locals changing their mind in a single week. Even if it is true that by the time of Acts half of Jerusalem had been converted to Christianity, that says little about the attitude of those present in the mob which surrounded Jesus in His final hours.

The Film is Unfair to the Romans: Sam complains about the way the Romans looked. He thought they should have been better looking in the movie. Here is what he says:

"Throughout his movie Gibson portrays both the Jews and the Romans as mean, sadistic, with angry looks and bad teeths [sic]"

Here is what White says:

"As their cruelty degraded [Jesus] torturers below humanity into the likeness of Satan, so did His meekness and patience exalt Jesus above humanity." D.A. 734

White suggests that Jesus "torturers" appeared sub-human. I wonder how Sam would cast a sub-human torturer? Apparently they would have to possess fine teeth and have a pleasant look about them.

Conclusion: Sam slashes on for about 33 pages. I am not going to answer every charge that he makes. However, I believe I have answered every major attack and have given the reader an accurate feeling for the nature of Sams attacks. Let me close with a comparison of how Sam and I spent our time following a viewing of The Passion. Here is how Sam recounts he spent his time:

"You will leave the theater feeling emotionally exhausted and probably will spend the next few hours processing what you've witnessed" (Star Tribune February 25, 2004).

Indeed, I spent the night wondering how can any sane person produce such a gory, gruesome, and bloody exaggeration of Christ's Passion. I could not help but question Gibson's mental sanity."

While Sam spent his time questioning the sanity* of Mel Gibson, I barely managed to control myself as I hurried back to my hotel room. Once I got into my room I fell to the floor crying, confessing my sins and apologizing to Jesus that it was my sins which had caused Him so much pain and suffering. I was sorry my sins had hurt Him so badly. I was simply astonished at His love for me. As a father, I knew that I would NEVER allow my son to go through that. Humans would have been "toast" had I been God the Father. That God the Father and God the Son would voluntarily go through this for me was beyond anything I could understand. Simply unbelievable. I determined that I would never again take the sin in my life lightly.

Bruce N. Cameron, J.D.

Copr. 2004 GoBible.org



* Of all of the vicious attacks on Mel Gibson, I have never heard anyone question his sanity. That Sam should do so says something about him that I do not like to contemplate.




Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 250
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is an interesting response. It makes me uncomfortable that his support for Gibson's account seems to be EGW, but I'm sure that is my own bias.

It brought to mind, however, a question I have had in other SDA things I've read and seems alluded to here, so I'm wondering if it is an SDA teaching or just semantics (those conflicting dictionaries, you know). The presumption (teaching) there seems that Satan knew what Jesus was going to do .... And that somehow Satan was tempting Christ not to go through with the very reason he came to earth.

quote: "Is there any doubt that Satan "pulled out all the stops" when it came to attacking Jesus during those final hours which were critical to the battle between him and Jesus?"

Now, I don't want to under-estimate the anguish Jesus suffered just knowing the future, but it seems to give Satan so much power and foreknowledge. I never got the idea from scripture that Satan knew that Christ was sacrificing himself for us or that it was anticipating Satan's torture that was causing him anguish or that in any way Satan was "doing" this to him.... to say it was Satan's plot to torture Christ, just sounds wrong. I have always had the idea, based upon my own presumptions from stories I've heard...not particularly taught, that Satan probably thought he won just to kill Jesus but that the death of Christ was controlled BY GOD. Just this morning, I was listening to John (on cassette) in my car and Jesus said to Pilot that he had no power that God himself hadn't given him (Jn 19:10-11). This was not Satan's victory. Satan had asked to sift Peter, but there is just no mention of Satan having control over Christ. It seems if Satan really understood the purpose of the cross, he would have fought to keep it from happening as the result is our redemption. So, I struggle with the focus of satan's supposed role in the crucifixion (as mentioned above...the "great controversy") because it seems to take away from the fact that Christ came to earth for this. HE chose to be our perfect sacrifice, not grudgingly but lovingly and with full foreknowledge. Satan did not defeat Christ ... Christ willingly lay down his life, taking all my sin upon him. It wasn't Satan that tortured Christ, it was me. Satan didn't do this to Christ. Am I all wet with that discomfort (since I seem to have a general distrust if EGW supports it) or am I close? I just can't put my finger on it... except that it seemingly minimizes Christ's choice to make it a battle with Satan. Clear as mud? What am I missing?
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 244
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Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, you are correct that his argument seems to primarily be: "Ellen agrees with Mel, not Sam." However, it should be noted that most of the EGW references are from Desire of Ages. Since this book was plagerized, almost in its entirety, from other authors the most you can really say is "other Christian writers have filled out the Gospel account in much the same way as Mel did". I don't think that EGW really taught that Satan was in control or that Jesus died unwillingly. That would probably be an unfair accusation. However, shockingly enough EGW did indeed teach that Jesus could not see beyond the cross and did not really know if he would live again or not. There is also the general notion throughout her wirtings (and especially in the GC) that God and Satan are locked in some sort of desperate battle. You sometimes get the sense that God may win in th end, but only by a whisker. I do think in general she tends to downplay both the deity of Christ and the sovereinty of God.
Leigh
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Username: Leigh

Post Number: 63
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Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, I agree with you about the death of Christ being controlled by God. There is song by Chris Rice that I like that has the line "sometimes Love has to drive a nail through It's own hand."

A few weeks ago, our pastor was illustrating what Christ did on the Cross for us. He said that Christ came between us and the wrath of God. All of the wrath that we deserved was taken by Jesus.

I think this is an interesting quote from R.C. Sproul.
"The glory of the gospel is this: The one from whom we need to be saved is the one who saved us."

On a different thread, there was the discussion of not much enthusiasm in sda worship services. I think it's because there is not a real understanding of what we have been given, and what we really deserve. I read a great little book by John Piper called "THE PASSION OF JESUS CHRIST 50 Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die." One of the chapters says something like this (my husband has the book and he is out of town, so I can't quote exactly)

Not only have we been forgiven, we have been declared innocent. Not only have we been declared innocent, we have been adopted as sons and daughters of God.

(There is more, I just can't remember). All of this is not based on what we did do, can do, or will do, but on accepting the gift of GRACE,the unmerited favor of God. That is cause for rejoicing, arms lifted high in praise, tears, and even dancing.

Have any of you all read this book?
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 119
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, you're so right. Adventism really does teach that Satan and Christ are engaged in an ongoing struggle to win. I also picked up on Cameron's emphasis that Satan was trying his best to distract Jesus. I've no doubt he was directly tempting/distracting Jesus, but now I also see those events more as Jesus staying focussed on obedience to his Father instead of succumbing to his own fear and dread.

I've come to see the cross and salvation much less as a triumph over Satan than I used to see it. Now I see it as Jesus quite literally choosing to submit to his Father's wrath against the whole world instead of Jesus winning a battle against Satan. The cross was not about Jesus winning over the devil; it was about Jesus taking into himself the wrath of God. It was absorbing God's wrath and for us, thus opening a way for us to be connected to God, that disarmed demonic power and authority. We are no longer hopelessly existing under the control and power of sin; we are able now to come to life eternally through the blood of Jesus.

Praise God!

(BTW, I haven't read the Piper book you mentioned, Leigh, but I recommond John Piper as one of the best authors I've read.)

Colleen
Sabra
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Username: Sabra

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Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Colleen, I never knew it, but according to one SDA I correspond with they don't believe atonement is complete. That really makes me wonder what else we have to discuss.

I thought it was a good answer to Bacchiochi, from an Adventist. I had seen the Ellen White similarities by a forward from my mom--kinda freaked me out, actually.

Bacchiocchi's fruit answered for him long ago, in my book.
Doug222
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Username: Doug222

Post Number: 491
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Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra,
I agree that Bruce's rebuttal was good from an Adventist perspective. While any of us could have rebutted Bacchiocchi's review, most Adventists would have questioned our credibility--afterall, we either turned from (or never had) the truth. In this case, Bruce Cameron killed him with his own poison. That's what made it so effective.

In His Grace

Doug

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