| Author | Message | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hey Everyone, Would like to get everyone's opinion of the rapture. This idea has become wildly popular--esp in the South--since the 2 best selling authors have written their series of books. As best as I can tell, the rapture as they present it is not exactly Biblically accurate but then again I might be allowing vestiges of Adventism to still affect me. I would love to hear everyone's viewpoint on this. | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dear Connie, This is a rather controversial subject you have broached. Before I start, I have to say my opinion is that this is not a salvation issue, and true Christians do in fact hold various different positions on it. It is not worth falling out about, because the things in question have not happened yet, so it is not really possible to "prove" who is right at the moment, because all the different positions appeal to the same texts, just interpret them differently. We do know that Jesus is coming back, the dead will be raised and the living translated (if we believe the Bible). The problems arise with sorting out the order of events. There is a site here which explains the various different views of the millennium and the rapture: http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0020.html The most popular view among Evangelicals seems to be premillennialism with a pre-tribulation rapture. I was brought up Baptist, and have since moved to Pentecostal and Charismatic churches, and this is the view that most of them believe, both in Britain and Hungary, where I now live. I had an interesting "experience" with this, which I may as well tell you. I believed and even taught the pre-mil, pre-trib position for about 15 years. I knew there were other views, but never really checked them out, and did not do the eschatology course at Bible College, because it clashed with Greek. When my friend Gyula attended Adventist Bible College, I had to start dealing with the theology, including the eschatology. I even read the Great Controversy. (As a total, never-been-SDA outsider, by the way, it just seemed a complete hotchpotch of good, bad and indifferent to me. An interesting 19th century historical curiosity. Certainly not worth taking seriously.) Anyway, I did not accept the SDA view, but at the same time, for some reason, I became very unhappy with pre-trib. I stopped teaching it, but "shelved" the problem, as I had more pressing areas to deal with (like, the Sabbath, the afterlife, EGW..., you all know the list). I was very angry with the SDAs at first for messing up my best friend, but in the long run I am grateful for the experience, because it has meant that I now have a much clearer understanding of so many vital areas, like: the New Covenant, the last days, the kingdom of God, the nature and work of Christ, salvation, grace and works, etc., and this means that the church I lead has also benefitted. I did an awful lot of praying and seeking God through this time, and I believe he led me in this process. Then, totally out of the blue, I was asked to teach theology at Bible College. Because of the SDA experience, I was more prepared, and could incorporate some of my research into the teaching materials. The first course I taught was Christology (I since do Soteriology and Ecclesiology as well), and at the end of the course I was "forced" to deal with the return of Christ, so I had to take the rapture "off the shelf" and figure out what to teach the students. I considered the positions I knew: pretib, midtrib and posttrib, and could find things wrong will all of them, so once again I prayed and asked God to help. I then came across the above site, read about the pre-wrath view, and it seemed to me that things clicked into place. OK, I am not saying that God definitely showed me this is true, because that is manipulative, but I am saying is it possible God led me to this view. I am still pretty tentative about it, but, my present opinion is that of all the existing eschatological views, the premillennial, pre-wrath position is the most likely to be correct. This is not a popular view, but that could be because it teaches that Christians will go through Antichrist's persecution, and that makes people feel uncomfortable. This was the position of the Early Church Fathers though. No one in church history ever taught the pre-trib rapture before the 1840s. That is worth considering. Lots of interesting things going on in the 1840s... The result of this, is that as a direct result of my studies on Adventism, I now do not agree with most of my Evangelical collegues on the rapture postion, and I have also stopped teaching on tithing, which most of them promote as well. I am looking forward to seeing what God will do next :-) I hope that was not more than you bargained for. Anywy, check out the site for a description of the rapture views. Adrian | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2004 |
Adrian, thanks so much for the URL. Iíve bookmarked it and plan to go back to take a better look into it. Right now Iím trying to figure out death and hell. At the moment, I remain firmly pan-millennial. It seems in this part of the country where I live everyone is pretrib and that has slowed me down choosing a church. Do you happen to have any study notes that you would be willing to share or post on what you found as the problems with the various views? While I canít think of a single person Iíve ever met who has openly told me they are post millennial in beliefs, Iím wondering if there is more going on than meets the eye. For instance, you hear a lot of talk about the Church (as opposed to individual congregations) being prepared as the bride of Christ. You hear prayers to change the government, moral climate etc. Do you suppose there are more leaders who are post millennial or am I just imagining? Itís difficult, or maybe I should say time consuming, coming out of Adventism, trying to study and regain ground with solid study of the Word on so many of the doctrines. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks Adrian and PraiseGod for your comments. I checked out that website and although it laid out the different viewpoints, it didn't really go into an in-depth discussion of the different views. I guess when people talk about the rapture I want to know if they are talking a secret rapture like the Left Behind series or the 2nd Coming of Jesus which seems to be a very global non-secret event--loud trumpets etc. etc. So where do people get this secret rapture business???? I guess I agree with your view Adrian as much as I can understand it. The SDA eschatology was drilled into my head and maybe it will be the last thing to leave. I will say that when I was SDA it was very comforting on one hand to "know the truth" about the end time events but also terrifying on the other hand to think about going through the end times trying to be perfect without a Mediator. Mixed bag for sure. | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2004 |
Sorry, I can¥t follow this conversation because I don¥t understand certain terms. Could you please explain what means: pretib, midtrib and posttrib, post millenial, pan-millenial... Rapture is in finnish, too, something different than here what you talking about, I guess. Tuija | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 191 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rapture means "caught up", and it refers to God's people being taken from the earth to be with Jesus. Some believe that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation (pre-trib), some believe it will happen after the anitchrist's persecution of believers but before God's wrath is poured out on the world (mid-trib), and others (like Adventists) believe the rapture will happen after all the "time of trouble" is over (post-trib). Adrian, after we studied Revelation with our friends during our time of leaving the church, we also saw mid-trib as the most likely scenario. It's clear in more than one place that God's people will not experience the wrath of God, but the Bible never promises that we will avoid times of tribulation otherwise. We are not "married" to the idea, but it does make sense. Thank you for sharing your experience. Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2003 |
Dear Connie, Please do yourself a favour, and forget the idea of having to go through the end times without a mediator. We don't have to go through anything without a mediator, that is one of EGW's more extreme heresies - see Mat. 28: 19. Jesus said "I am with you always, to the very end of the age" - not until ALMOST the end! See also 1 John 2: 1-2 and Heb. 7: 23-25. There are various views of the end times, as I said, but SDA eschatology is totally unique and not taught by any other church. I have the impression SDA interpretation of Revelation makes it focus on the SDAs. Interestingly enough, JW interpretation makes Revelation be all about the JWs, and Christadelphian interpretation makes it be all about the Christadalphians. Which just goes to show you can prove almost anything by basing your theology on an interpretation of symbols. I'm afraid the only notes I have made myself are in Hungarian, because I did them for my Bible College students. But there is a lot more on that site than just the one page that I posted. For instance, there is one here which deals with the various rapture theories: http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0004.html If you want to read more, just go to the bottom of the page and click on "ARTICLES" What really started me off on reconsidering the pre-trib theory was 1 Thessalonians chapter 2. Paul indicates that Jesus' return and the rapture (v. 1) cannot occur before the Antichrist arises, and the church will see this happen. Pre-trib, however, teaches that the church will be raptured before the Antichrist arises. Dear Praisegod, I think of all the millennial theories, postmil is the least convincing, and it is not really very popular any more. I think it stems from a total misunderstanding of the concept of the "kingdom of God," but that is yet another rather complex issue. George E. Ladd (who is premil, posttrib, by the way) wrote an excellent book on the KOG, though it is rather "theological," and rather old now. What I think is worth considering, is that most of the Early Church Fathers before Augustine believed in Premillennialism (this version is referred to as Historical Premillennialism or Chiliasm, from the Greek word for 1000. They also believed that the church would go through the tribulation. Augustine popularised Amillennialism, and this was the view of most the church until the 1840s, when Premillennialism was revived, but with a pretrib rapture, which was a totally new concept at that time. This gradually became the most popular view with Evangelicals, but I believe Roman Catholic as well as Reformed theology (also known as Covenantal theology) are still amil. Forgive me if I made any historical errors there, I am not really an expert on eschatology. God bless, Adrian | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 587 Registered: 7-2000 |
And mixed in with those you noted, Adrian, are several more. The back of my study Bible has charts of 8 different views that have been held thru church history. I would imagine there have been many more. I think you are so right that the whole subject is connected to an understanding of the "kingdom of God". (not unlike the ability to understand death comes from understand "spirit" and "soul" first.) In a study I was in last year I was really struck with how any group can get caught up in allowing some view of endtime prophetic timelines control how they interpret some other topics in the Bible. I was surprised to see how it has had an effect even on the history of our country! Now don't anyone ask me to go into that one! I joted myself some notes at the time, and can't begin to verbalize it without taking a look at them, and all my notes are boxed up and tucked into the attic for a house project right now! ha Praisegod, don't give up in looking for a church. We too live in an area of the country that has alot of Pre-trib folks. But, you are sure to find many Christians in your area who don't put any focus on their endtime views. Our church, in 8 years, has had only one month where we talked about how those endtime things may unfold. And then it was quite a balanced presentation, leaving lots of room open for personal interpretation. I suspect one of the battles all we former SDA's have is getting OFF the whole subject of endtime prophecy. It is NOT important. And can, in fact, distract from making progress in our understanding of things that are so much more important. My experience has been that if I have tried hard to understand something and am still confused, then likely my confusion comes because I'm poking around in a subject that the Lord has no interest in explaning to me at the moment. It's only when I put it down, and get back into concentrating on the stuff he IS speaking to me about, that the other stuff just one day starts coming clear. You know, the old thing about not being able to see the forest for the one tree we are bashing our head against. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2004 |
When I said I was ìpanî millennial that was a joke. What that means is that Jesus is going to come back and the details will all ìpanî out in the end. In other words, Iím not quite sure of where I stand as to these various millennial viewpoints. What little I have studied, I had issues with all of them so far, but have only barely started considering things. If someone had approached me and started talking pretrib, midtrib or posttrib when I was still an Adventist, I would only have had the vaguest idea what they were talking about. Unlike the case with the word ìTrinityî which isnít in the Bible either, the Adventists did not adopt the current terminology. Perhaps itís because rapture isnít equivalent to second coming. Rapture seems more equivalent to the resurrection of the saints. As I understand it, historically most early Christians seemed to believe the resurrection would occur at the same time as the Second Coming of Jesus and the final judgment. Pretrib or secret rapture believers were the first Christians in history to place the resurrection seven years prior to the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth. This is the most recent view, first coming in the 1800s. Around where I live, itís by far the most prevalent. If you ever get a Scofield Bible, thatís the view you will see throughout the study notes. The Left Behind book series continues to give huge publicity to the secret rapture theory and many people take it very literally, but may not be able to tell you why using their Bibles. Even more confusing is the way you use hermeneutics to approach your Bible study. I have the book Revelation: Four Viewsóa Parallel Commentary and would recommend that as an overview of basic beliefs. Itís laid out like a parallel Bible and you can easily go to chapter and verse rather than just reading it through. Brieflyó Futurism: This is the "end-times view." Most of the prophecies of the Mount Olivet Discourse (Mat. 24) and the book of Revelation after Chapter 3 are yet to be fulfilled. Most of your secret rapture neighbors are probably dispensationalists and futurist in outlook. When you watch TV and see people trying to make current events into future prophecy, this is usually their view. Preterism: This is the "before-times view." Most of the prophecies of the Mount Olivet Discourse (Mat. 24) and the book of Revelation were literally fulfilled by 70 A.D. Many of your Postmillenniasts are preterist although some are historicist. Historicism: This view states that the prophecies of the book of Revelation are being fulfilled through the course of history and continue to be fulfilled. Adventists are one of the groups that are historicists. For instance, the seven churches of Revelation correlate to chronological time periods. This used to be the most common view, but now futurism seems way more common in this country. Idealism: This is also called the spiritualist approach. This view states that the prophecies of Revelation are not to be taken literally, but have a general symbolic application in all history. For instance, the battle of Revelation 12 could be thought to describe the ongoing battle between good and evil in the spiritual realm. None of this seems really important in the big picture of understanding our salvation. I believe sometimes people get so hung up arguing points of their personal end time theory that they lose their focus that we are here to share the good news of Jesus Christ. In my search for finding a personal church home, two different churches happened to use the entire church service to promote the secret rapture. Both of them got crossed off my list. But thatís my bias and I thank God for allowing me to ìcoincidentallyî happen to view those services. Lydell, you are so right about setting aside what is only confusing you and waiting until itís time for God to speak. I was trying to explain to my husband yesterday how clear the Sabbath issue appears to me now and how difficult it was when I was first trying to process out of Adventism. While some of it can be the demonic grip we had on us, much of it is that God doesnít want to overwhelm us with details but wants us to bask in his love and the loving relationship we have with our Saviorówhich is a whole new focus for most of us probably. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 291 Registered: 7-2003 |
I get confused by the term "secret rapture". The term 'secret' seems to be derogatory (almost ridiculing) when I've heard it in the past...is that true? In general terms, when thinking of the rapture (or catching away), it seems pretty clear that we are to be ready for an unexpected time (thief in the night, shout of the bridegroom, etc.). There is another thread here (somewhere) which talks about this topic, but it helped me to understand the terms harpazo and parousia. Those are two different greek words that both are translated to talk about Christ's coming. I am not a greek student and understand a little greek knowledge is more dangerous than none because you can't understand the nuances of tenses and context by merely translating a word, but I did hear a series that incorporated the explanation of those two terms (from a masters-level greek teacher). There are many churches that don't take a position in escatology. Though I know some baptist churches do, some don't. Also, the Christian church I've been a part of has a "pan" view as well. As has been said before, you can make the symbols support lots of things. The teachers I like the best are those who try to tie the symbolism right back into scripture. This teacher I mentioned before says 90% of all symbolism in scripture can be found elsewhere in scripture. Personally, though I grew up in a mostly pre-trib type environment, it wasn't dogmatic and I don't think I ever heard a sermon about it. Frankly, beyond being ready for Christ at any moment, there is no where in scripture I can find we are supposed to worry a whole bunch about tomorrow. So, FOR ME, it's interesting to speculate, but I hate to see people divide over it. My pastor says he likes to play devil's advocate any time he meets someone dogmatic about any view because they all have strengths and weaknesses. What's fascinating about adventism's view, to me, is that it was the popular view in the day in which they were developing their theologies. But Adventism has altered the view to surround them more than the pure historicism view would otherwise. Kindof makes you wonder if adventism had come of age in a time where futurism was popular that it might not have been futurist. Like Adrian above, I came up mostly pre-trib, pre-mil, but have realized I have only really studied one view extensively. I also have that commentary, PraiseGod, and believe Chris or Dennis does too.... The one that did thought it was a fairly good treatment of the topic. I also have a book on pre-wrath. I keep saying "in my spare time", I'm going to study it, but you know how that spare time goes when you have kids... Great conversation on this topic. I love learning from other people's study as we continue to find the gold in the nuggets. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, I also have the book, "Revelation: Four views - A Parallel Commentary". I highly recommend it. It's really a summary of the opinions of a large number of leading commentators from varying perspectives. I find it impossible to tell which, if any, of the views the editor might lean towards. It's extrememly well balanced, quite an accomplishment. Becasue it presents the four major views so well and so fairly, I'm not sure it will really help you make up your mind on what particular view, but it sure has the the desirable effect of reducing a person's dogmatism through exposure to many different strong arguments. Chris | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2001 |
Doc, My understanding of what Paul was saying when he said the AC would come first is that the people were being persecuted and thought that they were in the tribulation and wondering why they were left behind. Paul says, don't worry, that day isn't coming until the AC stands up and exalts himself above God. Just my thoughts. Tuija, I know if it is on your heart and you want to know God will show you truth. I prayed about it and got 2 or 3 direct confirmations of quite the opposite of what I had thought. God is so faithful if we just ask. If you care to hear what I think I can send you my notes. reedsome05@aol.com, but truly, if someone had told me I wouldn't have known. When God showed me I just knew, al sorts of pieces came together and it was clear to me. I think God made us wired differently. Some people could careless and praise God, they just figure it will turn out. Others, like me want to know! ;) The bible says nothing is done in secret that wasn't revealed to the prophets. (not a direct quote) The OT has lots about the rapture. |
