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Hallanvaara
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Post Number: 32
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Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 1:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a subject that still is confusing me. IĄm sure you have discussed about it here before but I just couldnĄt find the thread.

Can you enlighten me? If soul sleep is unbiblical in what conclusion have you come?


Tuija

Dane
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Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tuija,
This is always a fascinating topic for SDA's/formers. I've studied it occasionally over the years and have reached some tentative conclusions.

First, it's obvious to me that it's not an issue of salvation. If it were I think God would have given us a clear picture rather than just hints.

Although I accept the traditional view of the immortality of the soul, this does not logically force one to conclude that the soul is really conscious of an environment or the passing of time between the time of physical death and the realization of the Kingdom.

An investigation of the Old Testament has not helped my understanding all that much because the Jews of that time were divided on the issue as well. Apparently some Jews of the first century believed in a Paradise concept, hence the story of Lazarus in Abraham's bosum.

In my opinion the New Testament has a more clear presentation of the conscious soul mainly in Paul's letters but here again honest interpreters can honestly disagree.

One of the problems I think stems from our concept of time. We are locked into time and have great difficulty thinking of existence without it.
Many of the current conservative Christian thinkers such as William Lane Craig have been addressing this and have some interesting ideas.

God probably does not operate in time as we think of it. If so, then when a soul "goes to God" that soul would be outside of time and would not experience the passing of time as we do. So to a soul, conscious or not, a thousand years in our time would be meaningless to the soul.

Does any of this make sense? My head is starting to ache here.

As for me, this is an interesting topic to talk about but I really think a lot of it is just speculation. One danger that I see for people on both sides of the issue is the temptation to establish a "doctrine" from a handful of texts that do not necessarily connect. This may be one case where both SDA's and traditional Christians should focus their concern on more important matters.

But, hey, I may be wrong.
Dane

Sabra
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Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 5:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tuija,

I feel that it is an essential doctrine because it minimizes the cross as so many SDA doctrines do.

Jesus came to defeat sin/death and He succeeded. He promised us eternal life and He didn't mean with a break of nothingness.

SDA's use Ecclesiates to say the dead know nothing. Well in the last chapter it says the man goes to his eternal home v-5 and the dust returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Next, they will tell you that the breath returns but Isaiah 42:5 shows us that the breath and spirit are two separate things. The dead know nothing refers to the issue of the book "under the sun".

Paul said he couldn't figure if it was better to go and be with the Lord or to stay and witness to the people. Now, consider....soul sleep/nothingness or witnessing, which would be a hard choice?

Revelation says the souls cried out with a loud voice! How do you figure?

It is something you do need to study for yourself and pray about. www.sdaoutreach.org has a good study on it, check it out.

Sabra

Susan_2
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Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, even tho I was brought up SDA the soulsleep doctrine never made any sense to me. I remember being 11 years old in the 5th grade at Fresno Adventist Academy in Fresno. Ca. and our teacher had us memorise John 3:16. Then not long afterwards she tried to teach us the SDA teaching on the state of the dead. I was a polite little girl and honestly was not out to cause trouble but I remember telling her that John 3:16 that she had us memorize said "that whosoever belives in Him shall not die but have everlasting life". She kept me in at recess until I told her I finilly understood that The Church was right about this and everyone who believed different than the SDA church was wrong. BTW, this teacher had no college education, yet she was put in charge of teaching 5th grade. She got the job because she was super-EGW/super-SDA and spent the greater part of the school day on indrocternating the kids rather than teaching us the 3-R's. She even at one time called my parents on the phone to tell them I should be forbidden to play with my best friend in tjhe neighborhood after school because her family was not in the truth and her dad smoked cigerettes and drean beer. Fortunatelly my dad put her in her place telling her she had control over me while I was at school and she was to butt out of our business when I was not at school. Does the SDA school system still hire non-college educated teachers? Meanwhile, I'd like to add that my 4th grade teacher at this same school had her college degree in elementary education and will always in my heart be my favorite elementary teacher. But, back to the subject of death. Have any of you ever been to a SDA funeral? The only thing more depressing than a SDA funeral is a JW funeral. They are both downers and leave me very sad and depressed. On the other hand, a Lutheran funeral is almost a joyful event, with all the faithful milling about about what a joy that so-and-so is now in the arms on the Lord singing praises to our God.
Dennis
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Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soul-sleep/conditionalism/annihilationism does indeed affect soteriology and Christology in a salvific manner. Without the biblical view of death (spiritual separation from God), the Genesis account about the immediate consequence of sin would cast a dark shadow on the rest of Scripture. Sadly, Seventh-day Adventists agree with the serpent, "You surely will not die." However, Adam and Eve died spiritually on the VERY DAY of their disobedience as God had foretold. They lost their Edenic perpetual Sabbath rest and communion with God. They still had intact physical bodies but their souls were dead. Thus, without recognizing that we are born spiritually dead (due to original sin), the "new birth" experience (regeneration) that Jesus talked about would be problematic and utterly confusing. The SDA view of death completely invalidates the New Covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Truly, "born-again" believers are the only kind of Christians that exist. Indeed, we have a heaven to gain and a hell to shun.

John Cooper points out the disastrous implications of holding that Jesus was annihilated in his death:

"Now if the extinction/re-creation account of Jesus' resurrection is true, then the teaching of Chalcedon [Council of Chalcedon] is false. The two natures of Christ are separable and were in fact separated between Good Friday and Easter Sunday. The human being Jesus completely ceased to exist...So the divine-human person Jesus Christ did not exist for the interim. Only the nonincarnate Word, the wholly divine Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, existed during that time" (Cooper; Body, Soul and Life Everlasting, pp.144-45).

Morever, if Jesus was annihilated on the cross and his natures separated because his humanity ceased to exist, then his resurrection must involve another incarnation. This incarnation would differ from the first in that this time the Word would take to himself resurrected flesh. Notwithstanding, it would be a second incarnation.

If Jesus the God-man was annihilated and thus ceased to exist between his death and resurrection, then the Trinity only consisted of two persons during that period of time. The Trinity would have been reduced to a Binity, or the resurrection of Jesus meant the re-creation fo the second person of the Trinity. In that case, the second person of the Trinity would be a created being. Such conclusions are ruinous for the Christian faith because they compromise the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Bible never talks about the resurrection of the soul--only the body. Adventists like to argue that only God has immortality (I Tim. 6:16). Therefore, they reason, man is not immortal. However, only God has absolute immortality, seeing He has no beginning or end. Our immortality is gifted to us by God, the ultimate Source. Man was created as a physical-spiritual being and must ultimately be reconstituted in the same way. The spiritual and physical sides of man are separated by death. And his existence as a spiritual entity alone is unnatural. This is why the resurrection is necessary. Death is an unnatural event and man's subsequent disembodied state is an unnatural existence which only the resurrection will remedy.

Sylvia and I attended the memorial celebration of a dear friend of ours at our church this morning. This sister in Christ lost her battle with cancer and left two young sons and her husband. She had time to reflect and to even plan her own funeral. It was a celebration of her heavenly homecoming--so different from SDA funerals. There were few tears in the large audience. The music was uplifting and cheerful as she requested. The following poetic thoughts were printed on the back of the order of service brochure:

I am home in heaven, dear ones,
Oh, so happy and so bright!
There is perfect joy and beauty
In this everlasting light.

All the pain and grief is over,
Every restless tossing past;
I am now at peace forever,
Safely home in heaven at last.

Did you wonder I so calmly
Trod the valley of the shade?
Oh! but Jesus' love illumined
Every dark and fearful glade.

And He came Himself to meet me
In that way so hard to tread;
And with Jesus' arm to lean on
Could I have one doubt or dread?

Then you must not grieve so sorely
For I love you dearly still:
Try to look beyond earth's shadow,
Pray to trust our Father's will.

May we also make our calling and election sure. The funeral sermon included a call to surrender to Jesus before it is forever too late. Let us be "know-so" Christians (like our deceased friend) and not merely "hope-so" Christians.

In awe of His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer
Cindy
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Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 9:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
Thank-you for sharing that very wonderful poem, especially the verse

"And He came Himself to meet me
In that way so hard to tread;
And with Jesus' arm to lean on
Could I have one doubt or dread?"

To know we will never be separated from Jesus, no matter what, brings a huge amount of comfort and peace...

grace always,
cindy
Lydell
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tuija, the issue is really not what happens at death, but what happens at the moment of conversion. You only find your answer by determining what is "spirit" and "soul". Look at just the verses on death and you can be confused. Look at the verses on salvation, spirit, and soul, and the confusion clears.

As was already pointed out, we are told that when we receive Christ we have already passed from death to life. (Jn. 5:24, I John 3:14))

You died and are living with Him (Col. 3:3-4).

That Christ has already abolished death and brought to life imortality (II Tim. 1:10-11).

That our spirit is alive even if our body is dead (Rom. 3:10).

That death is just pulling up the tent pegs and moving on (II Cor. 5:1-8, and II Pet. 1: 13-14).

That the believer will never see death (John 8:51).

That the Holy Spirit is with us forever (John 14.16)

I think that the clearest expanation of the whole subject is found in the whole bread of life discourse in John 6. Read it again very carefully. If we eat and drink Him, then we HAVE eternal life...not just the promise, we already possess it. The bread of life came down from heaven so that a man may eat it and NOT DIE.

Then there is the promise in John 17:1-3 that eternal life is knowing Him. And I John 5:11-13, that the believer already has eternal life.

No doubt the others will add some verse and passages to this list.

Consider: why would the death of God's children be precious in his sight if communication with them were cut off? If the believer's soul is actually seperated from God, no matter how small that time, then wouldn't that say that all these verses are lying? These are promises from God, so that would mean that God has lied.

Dane there are far more than just a handful of verses on this subject.
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another fact I find compelling is that in 2 Corinthians 12:1-10, Paul describes his being taken into the "third heaven," or paradise. He "heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell." This experience undoubtedly was the fulfillment of Ananias's prophecy to Paul at the time of his conversion when he said, "The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard." (Acts 22:14-15)

According to Paul's own timeline, that experinece in Paradise happened fourteen years before the writing of 2 Corinthians. This date put his experience years before his earliest epistle, Galatians. Here's what dawned on me: when Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 that as long as we are "at home in the body we are away from the Lord" and that he would "refer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord," he knows what he's talking about. Further, in Philippians 1:23-24 he says he is torn between staying alive and working for Jesus or departing and being with Christ. Departing and being with Christ, he says, is "better by far," or more accurately translated, "very much better."

Paul wrote these passages AFTER having been with Jesus in Paradise. He is writing about what he learned/experienced first-hand. He's not merely speculating or making a metaphor for eternity cancelling out the passing of time.

Of course, questions remain. As Lydell and Dennis both commented, though, the secret of our eternal life lies in the fact that we have a spirit which is a real part of ourselves. That spirit is what comes alive at the new birth, and that spirit--the part of us that knows God--is what remains with him. Dennis is right; having our spirits separated from our bodies is not the way we are meant to be. We must be resurrected so we can be whole again. Yet 2 Cor. 5 suggests that during our physical death, if we are alive in Christ, we are "clothed" with Jesus while we await the resurrection. We will never be separated from him or his love (Romans 8:38-39). To explain that fact away by saying eternity effectively cancels out time is to resist taking the numerous statements of Jesus and Paul seriously.

All that being said, the Bible leaves death something of a mystery. We can be certain that the dead to not visit us; a belief in our spirits being with Jesus does not open us up to spiritualism, as EGW said. There is a gulf fixed between us and the dead.

As far as the parable of Abraham and the rich man is concerned, I'll share again my moment of "Ah-ha!" about five years ago when we had our pastor, Gary Inrig, visit our Friday night FAF Bible study and talk to us about this subject of what happens when we die. When he mentioned that parable, one of our number said, "But that was just a parable Jesus used to make a point." Gary looked at us with genuine confusion and said, "Jesus would never tell an untruth to make a point that was true."

I realized immediately that the old SDA argument works precisely because we DID believe God could fudge on the truth if it served his purposes. After all, we excused such behavior in Ellen and even accepted her explanations that God himself manipulated us that way (as in God held his hand over the error in William Miller's time prophecy to ensure that people would become ready to go to heaven).

If we cannot trust the words of Jesus to be telling truth, we really have no ground of reality.

I praise God for increasingly revealing himself to us as we stay in His word!

Colleen
Praisegod
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, thank you so very much for those profound thoughts. There were some new insights there that I hadnít thought of before.

After processing out of the church three years ago, I hit a snag where I just didnít want to deal with doctrines. I came to the point that I was totally comfortable with the New Covenant, true Sabbath-rest etc so I didnít want to touch soul sleep, eternally burning hell fire or eschatology.

Now that Iím looking to settle down to a church home, Iím scrutinizing statements of faith and keep running into the eternally burning hell doctrine. My problem is that I really would prefer to remain an annihilationist. Thatís in my natural understanding, that is. This is most likely a very naÔve question, but why canít one delete the soul sleep idea but yet retain the view that punishment does have finality? I always see the two hooked together.

After noticing the archives where Dennis recommend the book, Death and the Afterlife by Robert Morey, I just got the book and have started through it. It explains the traditional viewpoint very clearly. And heís not afraid to confront Adventists and mentions specific places of disagreement throughout. It will take awhile to finish the book and digest all Iíve learned.

Praise GodÖ
Chris
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, you make and excellent point regarding the story of the rich man and Lazarus. When did Christ ever use a falsehood to illustrate truth? Also, if having the SDA understanding of soul-sleep is as improtant an issue as they make it out to be, then why would Jesus risk confusing people on the issue? Why didn't He explain that the information He just conveyed wasn't accurate? Can you imagine an SDA minister telling a similar story from the pulpit? He'd be in big trouble!

I remember going with a SDA buddy to see the movie "Gladiator". In the very last scene of the movie, as he dies, the Russell Crowe character is reunited with his mudered wife and child in a land of golden light and golden fields that was obviously supposed to be something similar to Heaven. I thought it was a beautiful ending that was more in line with a Christian world view then with the prevalent view in the Roman empire of that period. All my friend could say is that he would've enjoyed the movie more if it didn't have "all that spiritualism". If that film is guilty of spiritualism for portraying a conscious existence beyond the grave, then by the same criteria I guess Jesus must be guilty of spiritualism too. Something for SDAs to think about.

Chris
Dane
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really appreciate the thoughts here. As I said in my post, I have tentative conclusions on this issue. You have given me food for thought. Thank you. I pray that I will always remain teachable.
I'm sending each of you a big hug in the Lord.
Dane
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PraiseGod, the idea of hell was the last doctrine to fall into place for me. There were a couple of things that began to make me see it eternal.

The first is that most of our teaching about hell come from Jesus himself, and he used the same word for "eternal" when he talked about eternal life as he used when he talked about eternal punishment and the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Further, it's hard really to see annihilationism as "punishment". Who's being punished?

The second thing that began to hapen as I began to look up Bible texts re: hell was that two thoughts started to jell. The first is that hell may be a reality that we can't really uinderstand in our mortal, three-dimensional state. It could be something that happens in a different dimension than we know, just as the redeemed bodies of the righteous will not be limited to three dimensions. (Remember, Jesus appeared in a room after his resurrection without coming through a door?) The lake of fire may be words Jesus used to describe something we can't completely understand inside time.

The second thought that began to repeatedly come to me was that if accepting Jesus has eternal implications that involve us, body and soul, for all eternity, then it seems that rejecting Jesus must have an oppositie reaction that is as significant in a negative way as salvation is significant in a positive way. (Isn't there a law of physics to that effect: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction?)

IF eternal punishment were not eternally significant in a serious way, then the question of whether or not a person is saved would not be nearly as profound a concern as it is. Annihilation really wouldn't be of lasting signficance for those who reject Jesus.

It's a terrible and amazing question. I am just so thankful that God desired to redeem us and to share His Spirit with us!

Colleen
Dennis
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

Soul sleep, also known as "pyschopannychy," was also my last doctrine of Adventism that I surrendered to Jesus. Without the biblical view of death, one cannot fully comprehend regeneration (new birth) in soteriology (the study of salvation), Christology, pneumatology (study of the Holy Spirit), hamartiology (study of sin) and the creation aspects of anthropology (the study of man) among many other things. Unquestionably, this aberrant SDA doctrine is one of their most deceptive.

John Calvin's first literary work, PSYCHOPANNYCHIA, was devoted to correct this aberration of the Christian faith. Historically, the prevalence of soul sleep comes in various cycles. Whenever orthodox Christianity lets up on preaching the biblical view of death, thinking the false counterpart has been dismissed, soul sleep advocacy seeps in once again. After all, being a humanistic view, it is increasingly attractive in this postmodern age--notably among liberal theologians like John Stott and others.

Dennis J. Fischer
Dane
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
Thanks for the reference. I will add this to my reading list.
Dane
Conniegodenick
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, reading this was very interesting for me. Like many of you have said, the question of what happens at death has been one of the last questions that I have thought about as far as SDA doctrines. I am totally at peace with the Sabbath question but this thing with death has always bothered me.

I read an article by Sam Pestes that basically reflected a lot of what all of you have written. He points out that there IS a difference between our breath and our soul (contrary to what the Adventists teach.) He also goes back to Genesis where God says that in the day they would disobey, they would surely die. That obviously refers to their soul because as humans they did keep on living for several hundred years.

My biggest difficulty is with an ever burning hell. I still have embedded within me the SDA arguments such as in Malachi where it says that the wicked will be burned UP like stubble. I also wonder how awful it will be for all of us to know that some of our earthly loved ones are suffering so. It also seems that God would have to defy the laws of physics by keeping people/souls artificially alive to continue to "torment" them. It also seems that this way the wicked also have eternal life--just a miserable one.

The whole thing seems so grotesque at times that it's still easier to just believe that the wicked will be eliminated forever along with Satan and his demons.

Would appreciate any more comments on hell from those of you who are seasoned "exers"
Sabra
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very good points!! Great stuff.

I was told that we needed resurrected bodies to rule and reign on the earth. Any thoughts on that? It does seem odd that we get them since flesh and blood do not enter heaven.

Funny, I never saw myself non-existing, just seems so weird. Isn't it in Psalms that says, though I make my bed in the depths of hell, You are there?

I also don't think we understand hell at all. Since spirits are spirits and we don't really know what they are, we can't understand it. I do think that it is a horrible feeling of separation from God. The body will be burned like stubble, surely it will burn up, it's the spirit that is tormented.

Another thing I heard is that nothing God creates with a spirit can ever cease to exist so eternal hell has to exist, dont' have a scripture for that either. Any thoughts?
Chris
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Sabra, since the Bible tells us in several places that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, it is more likely that Hell will have both spiritual and physical dimensions. In other words, the resurrected wicked will have bodies capable of enduring whatever Hell might be.
``Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29 (NASB)

there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:15 (NASB)

See also Dan. 12:2 and Rev. 20:13.

I suspect that when Jesus talked of outer darkness and also elsewhere talked of flames (two things that are mutally exclusive and contradictory in our dimension) He was using metphors, however, it should be noted that metaphors always point to something greater than themselves. The possibility that metaphorical language was being employed to describe a reality that we can't comprehend should in no way minimize the true terribleness of Hell.

We may not fully comprehend it, but it would seem consistent and scripturally supported to say that the eternal state of both the believers and unbelievers is one of both spirit and body.

Chris
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I have come to the same conclusion. I can't explain it, but why else would the evil ones be resurrected? I also believe that the fires of hell are a metaphor for something far greater that we can't comprehend in our mortal state.

As far as flesh and blood not inheriting eternal life, the term "flesh and blood" always refers to our mortal bodies. While Jesus' resurrection body is physical, it's never referred to as "flesh". (Not that he doesn't have it, but it's not called that!) Further, John 1:14 says the Word became flesh and dwelled among us. That refers to mortal humanity. "Sinful" or "mortal flesh" is a repeatedly used term for our natural bodies which still have "propensities" (there's that good ol' EGW word that I hated so much but which still has true value as a word!) to sin even after we're born again.

In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul discusses resurrection bodies and creates an analogy of the relationship between the resurrection body and the mortal body and the relationship between a plant and its seed. They're related, but they're not the same.

A really interesting thought I've had sometimes but never pursue too far (because there's just no Biblical details to develop a full idea) is that of exactly what it means that hell is a fire and darkness and separation from God and eternal. Then I think about some of the scriptural references that describe God in terms of fire: Malachi 3:2--"he will be like a refiner's fire" when he comes on the day of the Lord; Isaiah 30:27--"and his tongue is a consuming fire," (v. 30) God's arm will come down "with raging anger and consuming fire;" Ezekiel's vision in chapter one where he sees a "man" high above the sapphire throne; above the waist the man looked like meetal full of fire, and below the waist he looked life fire, etc.

Then I think that if God is truly sovereign, He hs to be sovereign even over hell. What all these ideas mean, I do not know. Certainly those in hell would not be in Paradise with God and the saints. But when you think about the wicked calling for the rocks to fall on them when Jesus returns, what would be more horrific than to have refused to know Jesus but to have to spend eternity somewhere aware of his presence but without the broken body and the blood of Jesus to cover one? Only his judgment would remain for them.

Just a wild thought--believe me, I'm not married to it, and we can't possible know the reality here! But I am so grateful that Jesus has provided a way for us to be in God's presence forever and to flourish in his love forever. Praise Him!

Colleen
Dennis
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris,

I also agree with your conclusion.
Dennis
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Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Connie & Sabra,

Think for a moment about the plight of Satan and his angels. Obviously, they have never had a good day since they were cast out of heaven. They fully know what heaven is really like, and they fully realize that they are eternally doomed. Things will get even worse for them soon. Typically, Adventists would ask, "How could a loving God do this to a former leader in heaven?" In reply, Adventist apologists would conclude, "Only a tyrant would do such an awful thing!" Indeed, Satan and his angels never have a good day. Wow, they have had many, many bad days, weeks, months, and years already! What a terrible life they must have! And hell has not even officially started for them.

Truly, we can fully depend on the teachings of Jesus regarding the eternal, unending nature of heaven and hell (i.e., Matt. 25:46, et cetera). Jesus Christ spoke four times more often about hell than He spoke about heaven. Most of what we know about hell is what Jesus taught us. It is an understatement to say He doesn't want us to end up in hell. The stakes are indeed very high. The ungodly in hell would like for annihilationism to be true.

On the other hand, only an unloving God would obliterate us for disagreeing with Him. Not only will God's justice allow the ungodly to exist eternally apart from Him, but He will also sustain them with life to make it possible.

Robert Peterson wrote, "When Jesus endured the wrath due sinful humanity, it was as the incarnate God-man; when by virtue of his human nature he suffered separation from his Father's love, it was as the eternal Son of God who had become human; when be bore the penalty of our sins, it was as the sinless substitute, whose own life merited the exact opposite of God's wrath. In light of such conderations it is not surprising that Jesus could have borne on the cross what sinful, rebellious human beings can only bear in hell forever. In other words, because of the infinite dignity of Christ's person, his sufferings, though finite in duration, were of infinite weight on the scales of divine justice (much as his righteousness, though displayed during his incarnation over a finite period, is of infinite weight). As God incarnate, Jesus was capable of suffering in six hours on the cross what we can suffer only over an infinite period of time" (TWO VIEWS OF HELL, p. 175). Peterson further adds, "And as we might expect of one aspect of God's truth, it coheres well with other biblical teachings" (Ibid., p. 181).

Dennis J. Fischer

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