| Author | Message | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2004 |
Because most of you, my friends, lives in USA I like to know what¥s happening in SDA churches over there. I have made a conclusion that SDA church is going through somekind of "fermentation". People are contradicting doctrines and finally flowing out and rejecting SDA doctrines. How large-scale this is? I know people have always had joining and quitting but is this quitting SDA curch something striking and outstanding? What is the situation right now? I¥m just curious because here it seems to me that SDAs refuse to open their eyes and stick stubbornly in their congregations. It¥s only few people that dares to open their mouth and say something against SDA doctrines. Tuija | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 300 Registered: 7-2003 |
Tuija, I don't have any data, just impressions gained from talking to a few friends I have in various states. I don't think there is a mass exodus from Adventist churches or anything that approaches it. But there does seem to be a steady trickle. I suspect this steady trickle has always been there through the years, but my impression is there is a slight difference. Once again just impression, but in the past I think a lot of SDAs just sort of dropped out. They either formed little offshoot Sabbatarian home churches or dropped out of the life of the Body altogether. What I see today is former SDAs actively seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ and being willing to explore "Sunday churches" to find it. The Sabbath is still a huge stumbling block for these transitioning formers, but I believe more and more are being empowered to get over it when compared with the past. Just my general impressions.......maybe if data were available it would prove me very wrong. I would like to hear the impressions of others. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 203 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, I have the same impression. I've no data, but the anecodatal evidence suggests that more and more people are questioning, studying, and considering leaving. There actually are quite a few people at pastoral and conference levels who are quietly reading books and studying. Exactly where all of them are heading, I don't know, but it seems that the trickle out is gradually getting bigger. The church claims that it will have 20,000,000 members before 2010, (I can't remember the exact year). I don't know where all of these members will be; perhaps India and other 3rd world countries. I have a suspicion, however, that the church knows there is growing awareness among members and a growing hermorrhage of membership, but it refuses at this point to acknolwedge it. Instead, they mount the PR campaigns as well as the outreaches to the lapsed members and the evangelistic outreaches. I heard that the church is seriously considering adding a doctrine to the existing 27 Fundamentals. They're not removing any of those existing, but the story I heard is that they're considering adding one that is Life in the Spirit. How "schizy" is that? They keep an incomplete atonement but add on life in the Spirit. Speaking of reaching out to those who have left, we got a mailing yesterday from the Voice of Prophecy. Someone obviously sent in our name as a missing or non-active member, because we got the "Getting in Touch!" newsletter "for people not currently active in church". (I thought that was an interesting way to put it--I'm QUITE active in church, just not the one they mean!) On page three there is this notice: "Let Us Hear From You! If you're someone who's no longer active in the church, we'd be grateful if you'd take time to tell us what the factors were that led to your leaving. The church at large needs to understand why people become inactive. "Also, if you've come back to the church, we'd like to hear that story, too. Just email our editor, Mike Jones, at mjones@paclink.com. Or write him at: Voice of Prophecy, 101 W. Cochran St., Simi Valley, CA 93065" I plan to email him; I'd love to hear if any of you will as well. I really believe they need to hear people say they left because of studying the Bible and discovering truth. This particular issue has an article by Lonnie Melashenko in which he says, "Maybe you're reading this and wondering if there is any hope for you. Hey, listen up, my friend! We need you. We miss you. And if we need to aplogize for something we've done--or not done--that has caused you pain, let me be the first to offer that apology." I believe they need to hear that many of us are not leaving because we've been hurt or wronged. We are leaving because we have found Jesus and the miracle of the living word of God! Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 41 Registered: 3-2004 |
While I donít have any current data, Iíd like to mention something that happened 3+ years ago. Over the course of my last several years in Adventism I attended the annual Southern Union Evangelism Conference. Not only was this attended by evangelists and pastors in the Southern Union but many came from elsewhere. After all, it has to be a call from God to attend meetings at the Hilton on Daytona Beach in mid-December. Right? The last year I attended I really was quite far out of the church in my mind, but as I was working in a non-denominational ministry, I jumped at the chance to attend the conference to see if I could learn anything useful. I was there alone with only a very slight recognition of a few people. As far as I know, except for a few pastorsí wives, I was the only ìlayî person there. It was totally amazing what I kept hearing during the meetings. Unlike previous years, this year over and over they kept trying to rally the troops. ìDonít give up.î ìRemain faithful.î ìJust keep doing what youíre doing.î ìEven if only one or two join the church, just keep going.î ìEven if no one is baptized in that seriesÖ.î I was totally shocked. For one thing, isnít it the definition of insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? <g> Since meals were included, that gave me a chance to interact with a lot of people. Overall the mood was very gloomy. Some anger and frustration but more depression and despair I would say. Evangelists were frustrated that they were being sent to churches that didnít want them. Churches werenít prepared to support the meetings. Pastors were depressed that members didnít seem to care. Churches that were holding meetings were in such disarray with church splits that the pastors were so busy trying to hold the sheep together they couldnít deal with the new ones. Now, in the natural, itís just bad marketing and not knowing how to reach people. But I do believe that here in the US, the internet information must be having a great impact on people not choosing to join the church. Plus, I suspect God is just putting a halt to some of their successes. Now as to the ones already in Adventism, Iím really not personally seeing much movement. I have friends who know just as much as I do about how deceptive and wrong the doctrinal base is to Adventism. But, for whatever reason, they just slough it off and go about their business. I guess thatís just a whole lot easier than dealing with everything weíve had to deal with to break out into true freedom. Every day I just rejoice that God allowed me to change my understanding 180 degrees in order to get out. Today I again read Galatians all the way through. What was I thinking all those years??? Praise GodÖ | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, that is a great idea about contacting the VOP with the reality of leaving the church due to doctrinal differences. I've sent off a one page e-mail giving my story briefly. I've also asked my daughter and son-in-law if they would like to write too. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2004 |
Colleen, I will write the VOP also. I will not e-mail as I get too much spam as it is. I am reading the New Testament now. Started with Matthew the first of the year and am now in Romans. WOW!! What a powerful book. Paul was an inspired writer and is consistent with the rest of the Bible. As an SDA I thought I knew what the Bible taught. HA HA!!! Little did I know how little I knew. Thank God I am open to learning now. Diana | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'm sending my testimony as well, ;) Keep praying!!! | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 558 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, Hi... I've heard that Mike Jones (long-ago editor of the SDA youth magazine "Insight" who left Adventism because of personal family issues, then later returned) is up here in the Northwest and runs some program trying to get former members to return. And yes, their main belief (at least what they are willing to admit!) is that people have left Adventism because of personal problems, hurt feelings, etc., etc.... We've had conversations with local pastors (the "evangelical" SDA types) and have been told to just come back... even if we don't "believe" in "1844" or "Ellen White." But then, they do admit that our non-belief in the sacredness of the 7th day/Saturday could be a problem... (I guess if we talked about it too much, or desired any leadership role in the church!) It would be interesting if we could formulate a letter that all here on the forum could sign, explaining concisely our reasons why we no longer believe the Adventist dogma...a brief one page document telling why we believe the New Covenant in Jesus is so vastly superior to the shadows of the Old... and especially being Spirit-led versus trying to follow the mixture law and grace as Adventists do. But where could we send it to? And even then, would they ever actually publish it!? grace always, cindy | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2004 |
Cindy, that¥s a good idea. I will sign it if somebody writes that letter. Maybe it could be sent to Mike Jones or even to GC? I¥m sure you all know many SDA e-mail addresses. We could send our letter to those addresses and spread Gospel. What about listing here those addresses? They can reject it¥s message but God can make His work through it, too. Working (signing the letter) together God¥s power will increase. Let¥s go and spread Gospel and freedom! Tuija | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2002 |
I just couldn't pass up joining in on this conversation. I, too noticed in the Review the Getting in Touch kit to send to formers. I've eageraly been waiting for a kinfolk of mine to send one to me but I suspect my kin all know me well enough to have figured out that I'd love getting that in the mail so I can "mouth off" to the SDA church on their own urging so just to annoy me I am not getting one. About your definatiopn of insanity-wow, that sure hit home. I figured you put that there to get the message to me that I need to stop getting married! And, also I believe in years past a lot of folks left the SDA denomination mostly out of total frustration and discouragement. I have a friend who has not been in an SDA church in around 20 years. When she first heard a sermon, yes, a sermon from the front of the church on a Saturday morning that only the SDA's had favor with God but only one-third of SDA's would even make it to heaven she never went back because she just knew she'd be in the two-thirds that didn't make it so why even bother. How's that for a church teaching grace?!? Now though it seems as though SDA's are leaving the SDA denomination and finding Jesus, peace and grace in other religious settings. It's running its course. Soon the Western Nations of the SDA denomination will have to be supporting the Third World Nations of the denomination and the supporters will be resentful of their money going so far away and will just stop giving so much. I think the SDA denomination will self-distruct over financial issues. Just an opinion. | ||
| Carol_2 Registered user Username: Carol_2 Post Number: 153 Registered: 2-2002 |
I've sent in my e-mail! | ||
| Jdpascal Registered user Username: Jdpascal Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2003 |
Why did I leave the . let me count the reasons. I disagree with many of the fundamental beliefs of the sda church. The beliefs that receive the most emphasis, in my experience, are the ones with the least to do with my salvation. All that I own belongs to God. Not the SDA church. The tithes and offerings paid to the sda church are not some sort of dues collected (complete with receipted proof) to ensure the FULL acceptance of the person as a member. The purpose of Evangelism in the church is to bring in more paying members. Quote from a ìPastorî ìI have to hold evangelistic meetings to replace the members who are leaving. (this said after a conversation about why he would not visit the non-denominational school where our children attended because ìhe wouldnít go to a bar either.) Evangelism in the SDA church is basically a switch where you shop kind of approach where the emphasis is on an expanded product line (i.e. set of beliefs) that will get you closer to God if you can succeed in following them. Baptism is a public expression of the believers acceptance of Jesus death, burial and resurrection in substitution of the believers own life for his sins. Not the churches acceptance of his perfect outward lifestyle and not his acceptance of the SDA church. Salvation is dependent on Christís sacrifice on the cross. PERIOD. Not on any rules that I will only succeed in keeping imperfectly. The only source of divine revelation is the Bible. The use of EGW is a justification for the systematic spiritual abuse of members. And - no, Iím not cynical. I just donít believe the version of salvation presented by the sda religious system is biblical and I am very angry about being duped and for allowing the abuse of my relationship with God. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 207 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hi, JDpascal! You're new here, too, aren't you? Welcome--you've come to a place where we can all relate to your frustration! I remember as our blinders were coming off and we were beginning to realize we would leave the church, Richard was quite angry for a while at being deceived. He said he felt like suing the church (yeah, right!) for all the tithe he had paid over the years! God is so gracious to all of us. I believe he wants us to feel the anger involved in realizing we've been deceived. That anger helps to motivate us and also to make the break from an abusive system. As we move away from the deception, God heals our hearts. He really does redeem everything we bring to himóeven the deception. Sometimes I think how much more deeply I understand the new covenant and God's astonishing grace than if I had never experienced the crazy-making deception of Adventism. I am so grateful to God for making something completely new out of our "old rags". Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 559 Registered: 7-2000 |
Welcome also, JDpascal :-) It is great to see so many new posters here! I'm glad more and more are realizing that we don't have to prove our love for Christ (as in "keeping" the 7th day "holy"--whatever that could even mean!...) but instead, can just gratefully enter into, rejoice in, and live by the Spirit in Jesus' completed Rest. grace always, cindy | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2004 |
Hi Jdpascal, I can definitely relate to feeling angry. I recently decided to leave and the more I have studied the New Testament have realized how much EGW contradicts it. Galatians 6:2 impressed me when I read it. "Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." I remember reading or being told by someone that EGW says a true christian will only go to God with their problems not to other people(I'm not sure which book that is from, let me know if you think I am incorrect) Maybe this is why the Sda church can feel okay about not providing caring ministries. I remember two years ago when an elderly friend of mine broke her ribs she was in a lot of pain. She was out of church for at least a month. When she came back she informed the church that she was upset that noone including the pastor came to see her or help her. I remember hearing one of the members comment how silly it was that her feelings were hurt. I know some churches have very caring pastors and members, so the above is just my personal experience, not a generalization. It brought tears to my eyes this week when the pastor at the nondenominational church I have been attending asked, what can I do to make sure you have spiritual growth during your transition. If there is anything I can do for you or your family, please let me know. No one in my 34 years of adventism has ever asked me what they can do to help my spiritual growth. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hi Jdpascal, I can relate to the angry feelings. I felt duped by the church leaders because they have known about EGW from the time the church was established. I wanted to write the GC president a letter. I gave God that anger, as I do not like to give away rent free space in my head by dwelling on it. Current church members are another thing. When I visited SDA churches as I traveled around I got various responses. Most of the time I was ignored. But what I did notice, is that there is no joy in their faces as they come to church. I guess you cannot express what you do not have. I know, because I was one of them at one time. Thank God for my 12 step program that helped my in my Christian growth. All my brothers and sisters have left the SDA church. It has been done quietly. They just quit going to church and no one contacted them. It was as if we had never been there in the first place. Only one family asked me if they could help my spiritual growth in all my years as an SDA. This was in VA before I mored to NV. They are still SDA, though they now know why I did not rejoin. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2004 |
Welcome Jdpascal! Glad to have you here. You will find with this group that you can honestly say what you are thinking or questioning and everyone will be as helpful as possible. I sense you've been having some difficult time with Adventist beliefs. Are you an Adventist? A former? Praise God... | ||
| Jeannette Registered user Username: Jeannette Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2003 |
I didn't know where to post this but here it goes. I finally got the courage to go to church. It was wonderful to be with other beleivers and learn about our awsome God, I hope my husband will eventually join me. He wanted to know all about it when I got back. Thanks for the prayers Jeannette | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2001 |
Praise God Jeannette! | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2003 |
That's wonderful Jeannette! I know that I love the FREEDOM that I have to truly worship Him. We went to a Ginny Owens concert on Sunday evening and this is the first song she sang. "Free" Turnin' molehills into mountains, Makin' big deals out of small ones, Bearing gifts as if they're burdens, This is how it's been. Fear of coming out of my shell, Too many things I can't do too well, afraid I'll try real hard, and I'll fail-- This is how it's been. Till the day You pounded on my heart's door, And You shouted joyfully, "You're not a slave anymore!" Chorus: "You're free to dance- Forget about your two left feet And you're free to sing-even joyful noise is music to Me You're free to love, 'Cause I've given you My love and it's made you free (I have set you free!") My mind finds hard to believe That You became humanity and changed the course of history, Because You loved me so. And my heart cannot understand Why You'd accept me as I am, But You say You've always had a plan, And that's all I need to know. So when I am consumed by what the world will say, it's Then You're singing to me, as You remove my chains- Free from worry, free from envy and denial Free to live, free to give, free to smile |
