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Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,
I am new here. I thought I'd put out a test post to see if my membership is actually active.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I am!
Little intro. I have never been and am not SDA, but went to an SDA college, met and married a devout conservative, historical SDA man. He is now free of the SDA church, but it has been a long process, and his entire extended family is still devout SDA. His parents are SDA teachers etc.
My husband says he didn't set out to leave the SDA church, but rather to discover a relationship with the living Christ, and this is where God has led him. It has been 7 years since we attended an SDA church, and my husband is just now starting to be comfortable enough with his rejection of SDA tenets to discuss them with me. He is just now starting to explore the SDA beliefs in earnest to see exactly where the real discrepanices lie so that he can talk about that with his family if it ever comes up. Until now he has concentrated on the New Covenant and developing faith.
I am an active member of Clubadventist.com where I am regularly tarred and feathered for my constant attempt to direct people to a dependence on Christ rather than on doctrine. I don't argue doctrine with them, (which drives them crazy)I just advocate constantly for a dependence on Christ alone.
So that is us! I look forward to our discussions and welcome the support this forum obviously offers people!

Jerry
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Username: Jerry

Post Number: 419
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Tealeaves!

Interesting story.

Jerry
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 51
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad to have you here! I'm always amazed at the number of people that are willing to take on Adventists when they're in confrontation mode. Thanks, but no thanks. It wouldn't work for me but I know many of you are called to that.

Praise God...
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 68
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A hearty WELCOME, Tealeaves.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 37
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Tealeaves,
Right now I would not want to take on any SDAs. God's blessings as you communicate with them. Maybe when I have learned more of the truth from the Bible I will be able to.
Diana
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't take them on about doctrinal issues. That is definitely what they want to battle about, but I try my best to resist that at every turn. I ask them to "put down the 'law' ball and pick up the 'spiritual ball'" in our conversations. I talk about my relationship with the living God. When they talk about law, I talk about the Greatest Commandments that Christ gave us.
At first people were pretty suspicious of me and often hostile. Some have gotten even more hostile, while others have been private messaging all sorts of questions on faith, and prayer requests.
I think that if SDAs open up to the Holy Spirit, working on their relationships with Christ, they'll be a lot more likely to investigate truth than if I just argue doctrine with them.

My husband would never have left the SDA church in the "doctrinal argument" mode.
Pheeki
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Username: Pheeki

Post Number: 308
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tealeaves...come over to www.carm.org click on SDA and you will see what I am up against...I serioiusly am wondering if God wants me to continue debating with the SDA's...is it pointless? Or is am I planting seeds???
Lydell
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Username: Lydell

Post Number: 593
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Tealeaves. I think you are on a good track with just sharing the walk with them. SDA's are too into debate and argument, aren't they? I just think when they are hit with "this is what the Lord is doing in my life" that they are baffled. Wait aminute....if you have rejected sabbathkeeping, then the Lord is supposed to turn his back on you...yet there you are talking about relationship instead. If they talk about commandment keeping, and you talk about intimate relationship with the lawgiver, it is bound to irritate some, but hopefully provoke others to jealousy.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 7:31 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki
I checked out the Carm.org site... It seemed like a war zone. Not something I'd probably pursue. I find all-out doctrinal war pretty pointless. If you are really up to some seed-planting, check out clubadventist.com there are some really good people there that are open to some new ideas. (of course there are also quite a few who are close-minded enough to see through a keyhole with both eyes open... please excuse the analogy)
Every time i disappear and dont post for a while, I get private messages from some of them saying "where did you go? We liked hearing your ideas!" They don't always agree openly, they dont want to get tarred and feathered, but they follow along and agree privately.
And I do my best to be subtle, not get in anybody's face.


Lydell, you are right, they really are puzzled about talk of a relationship with God. Not only is it foreign to many to even talk about a relationship with God, but as a non-SDA my credibility is questionable at best.

I just keep plugging away. At least they sometimes feel brave enough with the relative anonymity of the internet to Private message me some questions every once in a while.
Esther
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Username: Esther

Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 8:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a thought.
Even though you all who are debating SDA's may be feeling discouraged as those in debate mode are VERY hard to reach, that is how I got here. I STUMBLED across a comment and then went searching for all the debates I could find. So even though you may feel up against a wall...know that God is using you, and your insights are being seen by some who are "flies on the wall".

I personally want to thank those of you who have the courage...and knowledge...who are out there debating. Many like me are searching, and your comments are reaching them:-)
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the encouragement, Esther. some days, i wonder why I "waste me time" talking on the CA site, then I hear a little encouragement from someone and give it a few days and head back in to the lion's den.

***Pheeki***
another thought... I was talking to a lady who posts on the Carm.org site (I recognized her as someone I used to see talking doctrine on another SDA site) her name is Dr. Patti. She says that it seems many people on that site who are ex-SDA didn't leave because they are following the Gospel, but are on some sort of a self-directed life change tangent.
And the site isn't necessarily for edification, but for straight-out debate. People seem to go there just to fight. I don't have the stamina or desire for that.
Tealeaves
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Username: Tealeaves

Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pheeki... fry that last thought, I had it mixed up with something else!! Dr. Patti wasn't discussing the CARM site....

I mixed up the messages. She was actually talking about a different site.
She seems to like the CARM site, says it just gets heated sometimes. She mentioned you and spoke fondly of you! :0)


Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi tealeaves, you mentioned a relationship with God as something Adventists don't have. I just received an e-mail from an adventist where I used to attend. She asked me to concentrate on my relationship with God and ignore the fact that some Adventists are legalistic. Basically it doesn't bother her that EGW was legalistic she feels like she is at home in an Adventist church and can ignore the legalistic tendencies. Her arguments are not convincing enough to get me to go back, I wouldn't want to take a chance that my children might become focused on the legal issues. I know for myself I have a lot less guilt having left.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 322
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Busymom, intrinsic to your friend's argument is a deeply seated underlying legalism. It goes like this: "Sure Adventism is not perfect, but it's the closest to the TRUTH of any religion. It's the remnant church. It's the ark of safety. So if you want to be right with God you need to get back in the ark before it's too late. You need to ignore the little problems and just get on the ark." When Adventist put pressure on you to return to the fold even if you have to overlook some central doctrines, it usually betrays a belief that one cannot truly have an authentic relationship with God apart from Adventism. This is just another form of SDA legalism.

Chris
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 315
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 7:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

B has used those exact words, Chris, about it being the "closet to the truth of any" church out there'... he always tried to convince me that I could become SDA even without believing in EGW and the church is "changing" and becoming less legalistic than it used to be, and no one will say anything about my jewelry...some of them even now wear wedding rings, and it really doesn't matter that I eat meat, all that really matters is a "personal relationship with Christ." It's double-talk to me to say anything to get the person in and then they'll start pressuring you by peer pressure. Even at B's baby shower people were talking about how sinful it was to eat pork and one lady confronted another guy after the shower about not being a vegetarian. It seems to me they'll say anything to get you in the door. He would never accept those compromises to go to a non-SDA church.

The more and more I read what other SDAs say in comparison to what B has said, the more it just sounds like a highly sophisticated indoctrination process. Across the country, they use the same catch phrases and have the same answers (almost word-for-word) to questions. It's quite sad and somewhat frightening. I'm never sure if I'm having a conversation with a person or just rolling to some other script he has stored in his memory banks.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 316
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 7:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"closet"..."closest"...I can't type, but you get it... :-)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 232
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, you absolutely "get it". Their talk is double-talk, and what they say to outsiders deceives people. And Chris, I loved your explanation of the subtle Adventist legalism. It's so true.

Adventists talk about a personal relationship with God, but for the most part, they have no idea what that really means. For example, how many of them would talk freely about a personal relationship with "Jesus"? While some might, on the whole, Adventists are uncomfortable with the name of Jesus. "God" is a much more comfortable term.

I now see that the Adventists' discomfort with Jesus stems from an unconcsious but deep resistance to the whole idea of Jesus'sacrifice and finished work. They cannot feel close to Jesus because they cannot abandon themsleves to accepting such a terrible gift for their own incurable sinfulness.

A relationship with God, in Adventism, is more talk than reality. Most Adventists do not understand how to have a true relationship with God through Jesus. Such a relationship would require Jesus to be more important and personal than the Sabbath or their image or their own dreams. Adventism supports the pursuit of one's personal dreams and achievements. A relationship with Jesus means letting Jesus be one's central identity. One's personal dreams are the things we surrender to Jesus for him to redeem, transform, or replace according to his love and sovereign will.

Praise God for knowing us better than we know oursleves!

Colleen

Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 323
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, it's both. You're talking to a person AND hearing a well indoctrinated script. In most cases the person truly believes what they are saying, but their belief is based upon an indoctrination process that leaves little room for personal doubt. I know I truly did believe that the SDA church had the most truth of any church out there.....not because I had thoroughly investigated what others believed and why, but becasue I had been told so.

Chris
Busymom
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Username: Busymom

Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Colleen, I liked your post about having our relationship with Jesus be more important than our image or dreams. For the last month my family and I have been attending a small nondenominational church, it is very youth oriented. My son mentioned this week he is enjoying his Sunday school much more than Sabbath school. He thoroughly enjoys the contemporary music, people clap and raise their hands and really praise Jesus. My husband mentioned that he is actually getting something out of the services. There is always scripture included in the sermon, but the pastor always brings out how the message applys to our everyday lives. One of the teenagers in our neighborhood attends the teen outreach and mentioned she loves going because the sermons the pastor gives are really cool. (I've never heard an Adventist teen use cool and sermon in the same sentence). Anyways, I have felt like the church is where we should be worshipping last Sunday the pastor had an altar call after the praise portion of the service. He read parts of Romans 10 and asked anyone to come forward who wanted to admit that Jesus was lord and that admitted we can't get to heaven by being good. One woman went up and he mentioned that he sensed one more person needed to come up. I know he was waiting for me. I was holding my two year old and didn't go up, but couldn't sleep well that night thinking about why I didn't go up. I have had serious doubts about everything since deciding to leave Adventism. I am not sure when people look at me if they see Christ. I have had quite a few coworkers over the years who have had said "can you believe how she is treating this person, and to think she calls herself a Christian." My husband has said for years that there is no point in going to church, because people act one way when they are there and totally different when they leave. I have been praying this week for a new attitude that altar calls won't scare me and I won't be afraid to be a witness. In the Adventist church I could be a "church bench warmer" and no one cared, but I need to work through the doubts that I have been having. Thank you for this forum and all the stories, it is could to know that I am not alone in having doubts, sometimes I think my faith is just weak because this transition has been so disrupting to my sleep etc. I am trusting that as time goes on I will be more peaceful about everything.
Praisegod
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Username: Praisegod

Post Number: 54
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen said: ìMost Adventists do not understand how to have a true relationship with God through Jesus. Such a relationship would require Jesus to be more important and personal than the Sabbath or their image or their own dreams.î

Just this week while discussing the Sabbath issues with my husband, it hit me that the Sabbath has become God to SDAs in the place of Jesus. This is why they never truly can accept someone who worships on Sunday and must continue to win them to "the truth." The Sabbath is raised above Jesus, although you could never convince them of that, Iím sure, because looking back I would never have understood myself as SDA.

Praise GodÖ

Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 325
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praisegod, you are right. Adventism has become very much about the worship of a day rather than the worship of a person. If anyone needs confirmation of this, all they need to do is pick up a Little Friend, Primary Tresure, most adult quartleries, Signs of the Times, or Review. Count the occurances of the word "Sabbath" versus occourances of the name "Jesus". You'll quickly get a feel for what SDAs really worship.

Chris
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 318
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 7:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always hear "God doesn't change, so the sabbath can't change." To which I reply, then Sabbath is God? I usually get some remark about the stupidity of the statement, then I explain that the Bible says God doesn't change. The only way that means the Sabbath can't change is if the sabbath is God. I have yet to get an answer from that one.
Chris
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Username: Chris

Post Number: 326
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, "God doesn't change, so the sabbath can't change" is not a very logical assertion to begin with. My response to this is to ask the following question, "I agree with you that God does not change. So do you take this to mean that God deals with all peoples in all times in exactly same way?" At this point the person either realizes the logical trap they are caught in and tries to move the argument elsewhere or they foolishly agree that this is true. If they agree with this statement then you can bring up sacrifices, shaving the corners of your beard, wearing mixed fabrics, the yearly Sabbaths, the weekly sabbaths, etc. If the person protests that God must be "fair" and ask the same things of all people, then I throw in Jesus' parable of the workers who were hired at all different hours of the day, but all ended up with the same pay. So much for human conceptions of "fairness".....a much over used word in our society I think.

The idea that God's unchanging nature means He is not free to progressively reveal Himself or to make different covenants appropriate to the time and place is salvaic history just doesn't stand up to Biblical scrutiny (or logic).

Chris
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to all of you I am learning more everyday that Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST.
And to me it is not that Jesus changes, but that he fulfilled what he said he was going to do in reference to sin. Until Jesus died on the cross things were done to point forward to him. After that those things were not needed except to teach us why Jesus died. So they are a part of history now. Nice to know, but not important to practice to obtain salvation.
Yes, the Sabbath was important to the Jewish people. But we do not have to keep it as we rest everyday in Jesus. I like that much better. That puts the emphasis on Jesus, not on the Sabbath.
So that is how I understand it.
Diana
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2000
Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana,

I applaud your theology of "emphasis on Jesus." This is so unlike an elderly, devout SDA lady once told me while I was still an Adventist. She was concerned about Union College students being in an Easter pageant. She surprised me by saying, "You know sometimes I think we make too much of Jesus." This lady, now aware of my having left Adventism in 2000, probably would not admit that she ever told me that. By the way, she is a high-profile SDA (meaning she is highly respected socially and professionally in the SDA community).

Also, I seriously doubt she would have ever said that to a former Adventist. I was just having a comfortable, in-house conversation in her home. She was simply speaking from the heart.

To continue observing the Jewish Sabbath and other festivals (Lev. 23) today is a denial of the reality of Christ. This is why the new covenant, to Adventists, is simply a warmed-over old covenant. The legal Sabbath cannot save us nor provide divine rest for our souls, but thank God the True Sabbath does indeed.

In His joy,

Dennis J. Fischer


Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 47
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
God used you to help me transition out of the SDA church and find a relationship with Jesus Christ. I wrote a number of e-mail to you and you answered them and explained, from the Bible, what I asked about. The important thing I have learned is the importance of Jesus Christ in my life. I found a church to attend. I am taking 2 classes that are teaching me the essentials of Christianity from this church. Those are a relationship with Jesus Christ, relationships with others people and that we are on a journey and that journey is Christ. These are things I did not learn in all of my SDA schooling.
God led me to that church. Three weeks ago the thought came into my head, Go to that church off the freeway 95. I know, now, that God put it there. I went into the service and immediately felt at home.
Lots of the things the in class being taught I learned from my study with the Strong's Bible concordance and from reading all the things I have read by the former SDAs. It is just nice to know that what I have studied myself is the truth.
I said once before on this forum that I want to do as Paul did in I Cor 2:2 "for I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him Crucified". I had studied and believed some doctrine that is not Biblical for so long, that from now on all I want to know is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. It is exciting to be able to talk with other Christians about God and what He means to me. It is so good to emphasize Christ and nothing else.
So Thank you Dennis for being so supportive as I left the SDA church and I thank all the members of this forum for their support also. God has used all of you to help this lost soul and He will continue to use you to help others.
Dios te bendiga a todos,
Diana

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