| Author | Message | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 306 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yesterday morning, the lesson during the kids' worship hour was on the 10 Cs. I had really mixed feelings about the topic and was almost relieved they weren't able to get through all 10 before the lesson time was up. That leads to my question...what do you all teach your kids about the 10 commandments...and how have you (or have you?) talked to the leadership/teachers within your churches to place the appropriate emphasis on them? I was in the service with my son and it was not a strictly thou shalt not kill, but more don't be angry without cause...seeming to use the 10 Cs as principles incorporating Old and New Testament teachings, rather than contrasting the place of the 10Cs in the Old Testament in comparison to Christ's teachings in the New Testatment. It just made me wonder what you all do/have done ... | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2004 |
I just plan to tell my kids (they are only 1 and 3 years right now.) That the 10 commandments was a list of laws that was made especially for the Jewish people a long time ago. That we can still look at them to understand some of the things God wants to see in us, but what is much more important for CHristians is to have Jesus in our heart, that we listen to Him for directions on what we should do. My family was never SDA, and this was all the explanation I ever got about the 10 commandments. The emphasis was always placed on listening to CHrist Himself for guidance,and I never had any question about whether we should still follow the 10 commandments as law for CHristians today. I found it simple and straightforward that having Christ in my heart, He would forgive me for my sins, and tell me directly what to do in my life. I plan to go into it a little more deeply with my kids when they are even older (at least 11 or 12 probably), than my parents did with me, just because my husbands family is all SDA, and they may hear something from them about the Sabbath etc. I think it would be a great opportunity to study Hebrews together... Hebrews 8 makes it SO clear why the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 312 Registered: 7-2003 |
Pretty much "ditto" with Tealeaves. My kids get the 10Cs in AWANA and Sunday School from time to time (this seems to be pretty prominent in Christianity). I just remind them that the 10Cs were the summary of the law that the Israelites were given, but that as Christians we have new and better commandments that go beyond the 10s. I have them repeat the two great commandments that Christ gave us, then we talk about how those commandments would include things like not stealing or lying. We also sometimes talk about what it means to rest in Christ. When they're older I would like to do the full blown covenants study with them so they'll understand how to respond to all their SDA relatives. You know, I think one of the special blessings we've been given as formers is a very clear understanding of the continuities and discontinuities bewteen the old and new covenants. I think we've been given a gift in terms of a specail clarity about Law, Grace, and the centrality of Christ in all of scripture. I do not mean to suggest that no one else understands these copncepts as well, only that I have been suprised to find a number of Christians that don't. I think we have a special priviledge to be able share some insights into how legalism and Galationism creep in through a misunderstanding of the application of God's covenants. Chris | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2000 |
My kids are 13 (girl) and 16 (boy.) The 13 year old was baptized into the SDA church last year and is close to her mother in her beliefs. However, whenever the opportunity arises (OFTEN!) I talk with my 16 year old, with my daughter present. He is on the verge of agreeing that the SDA church is a cult, but won't use that language. He agrees that the 10Cs were for Israel. He is beginning to understand having a relationship with Jesus guided by the Holy Spirit. He's even begun to make comments (mild, I'm sure) while at school. He attends La Sierra Academy High School, associated w/La Sierra University SDA church. It's a great blessing for those of you who can begin to bring the truth of these things to your children at such a young age. However, just because they're older doesn't mean that they can't be converted. Their questions are more sophisticated, but the Holy Spirit gives us the words to say right when they're needed. Steve | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2003 |
This is what I believe. I believe that if someone is not in Christ, they ARE under the law and that they will be judged by the law. Not just the outward breaking of the commmandments, but the disobedience of the mind(lust, hate, etc.) I believe that the purpose of the law is to show us God's supreme standard and his soveriegn authority. Then, when one sees how sinful they truely are ("..For by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20) and how it is impossible for them to keep the law perfectly all the time, they fall on the mercy of Christ and accept him as their savior. Then, they have died to the law and sin and are now under the New Covenant of Grace and not under the law. "Wherefore, my bretheren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4 I remember being taught as an SDA that "We can perfectly keep the law. Jesus proved that he can do it, so we can, too." I believe that is one of the great heresies of Adventism. If someone could keep the law perfectly, why would they need a savior? "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Chirst is dead in vain." Gal. 2:21 The bible study I'm using with my kids (ages 11 and 8) states that: (I'm paraphrasing here) Sadly, some churches have had a large part in the teaching of the deception that the Ten Commandments are considered a set of rules for good conduct, a salve for the conscience. No doubt many have participated and believed in this kind of teaching simply because they did not have a thorough knowledge of the Bible. But the Bible show us that the Ten Commandments are exactly the opposite of this sin-distorted view. They are impossibly difficlut laws set forth by the holy, righteous, sovereign, Creator God to show sinful man his absolute inability to obey God completely or to save himself from eternal punishment. Here's an example of the first commandments requirements: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." To truely keep the first commandment, one must listen to, obey, exalt, and worhip God and Him alone in EVERY situation and not attribute his power or athority or five His glory to anyone else. None of us has contunually put God first in everything. The lesson cautions you to not teach this as though this is something they must try to do in order to be save, but to show them rather that this is something which none of us have done and that we are not capable of doing what God commands. It points them towards the cross for their salvation, not to anything they could possibly do to save themselves. "Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Leigh | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 307 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm pretty well aligned with Chris and Tealeaves. Here's my general problem with some of what Leigh has said (I've heard it elsewhere similarly and it may be purely symantics). First, it seems from scripture that the law was only given to the jews. Gentiles were never given the law. Scripture talks about those under the law vs. those not under the law in both Romans and Galatians. But more to the question at hand, we say that we should still try to keep God first in our lives, even though we don't do it perfectly using the first commandment. Yet, it's okay to ignore the Sabbath in the fourth commandment because we're not under the law anyway. It seems a bit inconsistent to me to say parts of the 10 commandments apply, and parts don't. I personally would rather point to the scripture that we are to love God with all our heart, etc. than to put it in commandment terminology because it sounds so much like we are cherry picking which laws we need to keep...which is SDAs claim against us who don't keep the Sabbath anyway (in simple terms). If the law is a whole, as I believe it is, then we don't need to worry about our clothes content, clean/unclean, holy days, or commandments. Now, that's not to say there is 'no' law or that we can run free reign with our Christian liberty, for if there had been a law given which brought life, then righteousness would have come by the law. (gal 3:21) So, though it was good and holy, it did not bring life, but actually is the ministration of death. I sense a real dichotomy to say follow Christ, but mind the law (or part of it)...and I know that's not what is being said above, but it could be taken that way (and has been by the SDAs I know). The law came in because of transgressions ... in modern language of a relevant situation, look at the argument of "plagarism wasn't illegal when EGW did it". Well, if people behaved morally when referencing other's writing, there wouldn't have been a law created to make it punishable. Because there was no law, there could be no punishment even though all reputable writers gave proper credit and were completely unaffected by the eventual creation of the law. However, it was only made punishable once there was a law against it...making it illegal...and only affects those not acting properly in their use of other's writings. It seems a huge can of worms to find Christian obligation in the 10 Cs without trying to stumble over the 4th in practice. If we can identify the 4th as the sign of the covenant as a whole and not some moral principle, I can almost go there. But even still, the law as a whole worries about flesh, not spirit and I just get hung up there. I'm not trying to argue really, just trying to make some mental sense of it all in terms my children can understand ... or sense adults can understand...without sounding completely contradictory as a whole. | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2003 |
This is a learning process for me. Sometimes what I thinking doesn't come out on (paper, print, etc.) I believe the law was given to the Jews, but what would a person today, who didn't believe in Christ be judged against? I'm thinking and learning as I'm writing here so bear with me. If the law was completely carried out and all their requirements met in the person of Jesus christ (which I believe is so) Would the non-believer be judged by the law given to Israel or the perfect life of Christ? The latter may be the case. Someone enlighten me! I'm basing what i said above on this text. Hbr 10:28 "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" I know that I can't live a perfect life, that's why I accept Christ's sacrifice. I guess what I was trying to say in the statement about the first commandment, is that there are some sda's and others who would say that they can keep ALL of the commandments perfectly. This was just to show them that they can't keep them all, all of the time. I guess you can use this for legalists if you don't have time for a covenant study. I think that Jesus was going there when he added whoever lusts or hates, is guilty also. But he used this on legalists, not on humble, admitted sinners. With my kids, I like to use the commandments in I John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love another, as he gave us commandment." Jesus also gave us the new commandment, "love as I have loved." John 13:34 I guess I'm still trying to make mental sense of this, too. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 310 Registered: 7-2003 |
It may be symantics from the differing angles we've experienced adventism. I've experienced it as the outsider "condemned" because I wasn't "keeping the law" or even worried about it. You've experienced it from the inside and been absorbed (to a greater or lesser degree) with it. In reality, we may be saying much of the same thing given our histories and exposure to it. "Would the non-believer be judged by the law given to Israel or the perfect life of Christ?" I don't have an answer for you. I think that's a good study topic. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 521 Registered: 11-2002 |
I pointed out to my son recently when he got on a tangent about having to keep the 10 Commandments (age of son: 31) that Jesus gave us better commanmdments and He expanded on them. He said, "they say thou shalt not kill but I say whoever hates has already killed in his heart" and He says, "they say thou shalt not commit adultry but I say whoever looks at a woman with lust has committed adultry". I just tell folks that Jesus gave a better, more expanded understanding of right vs. wrong. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 227 Registered: 12-2003 |
Since we've been studying Romans in our Friday night group, the question of what standard is used to judge a person is becoming a little clearer. ALL have sinned; "Death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam." (Romans 5:14) "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12) Everyone who does not accept Jesus is already condemned to death. We are "objects of wrath" befofe our new birth. (Ephesians 2:4) All are condemned from birth because of original sin, the sin we inherit from Adam. Without a change of heart and a surrender to God through Jesus, we are judged by our natural imperfection. We are born dead in sins. God requires perfection and righteousness; we are born unable to deliver. The Jews received a greater revelation of God than did any of the other nations. They had the literal presence of God among them; his cloud of presence dwelled in the Most Holy Place of their tabernacle and then their temple. Along with this personal revelation of himself he gave the law, a word description of how God expected Israel to live and also to be different from other nations. They had a greater revelation of God than did anyone else on earth until Jesus himself came. Yet Romans 2 points out that even the Jews (as a whole) did not become righteous because of this revelation. They have more knowledge and understanding, but no more righteousness. Therefore, they will be judged not merely by their inherent but somewhat ignorant sinfulness but also by their knowledge of God and his promises of salvation. They will be judged more severely than those who sinned without consciously breaking a law or arrogantly refusing to submit to God. Paul says "the law was added so that the trespass might increase." (Romans 5:20) He also said, "Where there is no law there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15) In other words, people who do not know the law are not breaking it when they do what it says not to do. That ignorance, however, does not excuse them; they are still sinners--they're just not condemned for what they've done in ignorance. When Jesus came, however, he was the full revelation of God and of his will and his law. While the law still states the consequeneces for living unrighteously, we no longer need the law to lead people to Christ. Jesus himself fulfilled that shadow and has become all we need to introduce people to God. The law only makes sense in the context of a revelation of God, such as Israel had by God's personal presence among them. The law divorced from God's personal revelation is a cold, hopeless, powerless thing. Only with God's revelation of himself does the law convict anyone of their sinfulness. And now, with the risen Christ present in the world in the person of the Holy Spirit, God's revelation of himself is even more personal than it was for Israel, and the Holy Spirit himself convicts people's hearts of their unrighteousness. In short, I believe that all people are judged by one thing: the righteousness of God. Those who have accepted Jesus are covered with Christ's own righteousness, and those who have not (or have not assented to God's truth and promises in the cases of those who lived before Christ or in remote places where they have not heard of Jesus--since the truth about God has been revealed in all that has been created [Romans 1:18-20] ) are not covered with Christ's righteousness and will be lost. Apparently people's judgments will be more or less severe depending upon how much of the truth of God they have known. Hebrews 10:28-29 explains that those who "rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thng the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has inuslted the Spirit of grace?" In short, I believe all are jugded by the same standard, the perfection of God which he requires of all humanity. Those who have surrendered to Jesus have that perfection in God's eyes and have become part of his family. Those who have rejected God's call on them do not have it and are under condemnation. As of today, that is my understanding of how we are judged. I admit that my understanding seems to change and deepen as time and study continue, but this is what I understand the first seven chapters of Romans to be saying. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2003 |
Thanks, Colleen. I agree with you statement: "In short, I believe all are jugded by the same standard, the perfection of God which he requires of all humanity. Those who have surrendered to Jesus have that perfection in God's eyes and have become part of his family. Those who have rejected God's call on them do not have it and are under condemnation." Like you, my understanding of spiritual truths seems to deepen as I study and grow in Christ. I'm so glad and thankful for Jesus and his complete atonement and perfect sacrifice. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 319 Registered: 7-2003 |
Fascinating! Thank you, Colleen. Chris | ||
| Darrell Registered user Username: Darrell Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-1999 |
Here are a few words of Jesus which relate to the subject of how one who does not know God might be judged: "Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matt 7:1-5 "For I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgement. For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned." Matt 12:36,37 In other words, if each of us is judged only by how we have judged others throughout our life, we would all be condemned. This applies universally, whether a person has known much or little, or even nothing, of God's standard. Of course, as Colleen pointed out, Roman's makes it clear that all have known God's standard and stand condemned. Thank God for this promise: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24 -Darrell | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 233 Registered: 12-2003 |
Really interesting point, Darrell. Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 329 Registered: 7-2003 |
Darell, this makes me think.... There is a sense (and we need to be careful about how we say this) in which you could say all of us are judged for salvation based upon works. The question is, upon who's works are we judged by, Christ's or our own. We can either be judged based upon Christ's righteousness or upon our own righteousness. If we accept the foreign righteousness of Christ in place of our own, then the Father only sees the perfect sacrifice of His Son. However, if we reject that sacrifice then there is really nothing left to judge us on accept our rejection of Christ and our own filthy garments. Interesting thoughts Darell. Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2002 |
I mentioned the do not judge lest you be judged text to my SDA kin recently. I found out that this text does not apply to keeping the 10 Commandments. This text means things that are bad but not specifically mentioned in the 10 Commandments. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like to read all these posts to learn and as I read this it brought to my mind Romans 2:12 - 16. "12 Those who sin without knowing the Law will be lost without reference to the Law; while those who sin under the Law will be judged by the Law. 13 For not the hearers of the Law are righteous before God, but those who practice the Law will be pronounced righteous. 14 For when Gentiles who lack the Law do naturally practice it, they are for themselves a law, though they have none. 15 They show that what the Law requires is written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their thoughts accuse or defend one another." 16 They will be judged on that day when God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus in agreement with the good news I preach." What I see from this is that if you believe the Law, the 10 commandments, you will be judged by them. Then those who do not have the 10 commandments, but practice them naturally, without a knowledge of them, will be accused or defended by what they have in their heart. In other words they will be judged by what they know and practice. Just my 2 cents worth. Diana |
