| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Here is a funny one: Tahaa is an island on the International Date Line. Suppose two friends decide to spend a couple of weeks camping on Tahaa. They both set up their tents side by side on the southern coast. One of them, Walt, sets up camp just west of the date line. The other, Earl, pitches his tent just east of the date line. Both of them are seventh day Sabbath keepers. They arrive on the island to the west of the date line on a Wednesday at noon. Earl helps Walt set up camp. After an hour, they both step to the east of the line. Of course, at that place it is Thursday at one in the afternoon. Walt helps Earl set up his tent. Walt returns to his camp. They both spend a delightful time on their respective sides of the line the rest of the day through next day until sundown. Of course, now, it is the start of Sabbath for Earl. He observes it faithfully through the next 24 hours. During this time, Walt is experiencing a Friday, and does normal weekday tasks. Just at sundown, as Earl is completing his Sabbath, Walt jumps over the line and suggests that they trade places. Earl agrees and runs over to Waltís place. For Walt, it is now Saturday night after sundown, so he has not experienced a Sabbath since arriving on the island. For Earl, it is now Friday night, the beginning of another Sabbath. He faithfully observes the Sabbath for another 24 hours. After sundown, they trade places again. For Earl, it is now Sunday after sundown. For Walt, it is now Saturday after sundown. Five days later, it is Friday night for Earl and they do the same actions again. The following Wednesday morning for Walt on the west of the date line, Walt crosses the line and helps Earl take down his tent. They cross back to the west, dismantle Waltís camp and leave the island at noon. Within fourteen days, Earl has observed four days worth of Sabbaths and Walt has observed none. However, neither of them broke the Sabbath or observed it on the wrong day. Did I do my calculations right? | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
I see one error, but I will correct it in the next version. Second variation: Tahaa is an island on the International Date Line. Suppose two friends from California decide to spend a couple of weeks camping on Tahaa. They both set up their tents side by side on the southern coast. One of them, Walt, sets up camp just west of the date line. The other, Earl, pitches his tent just east of the date line. Both of them are seventh day Sabbath keepers. They arrive on the island to the west of the date line on a Wednesday at noon. Earl helps Walt set up camp. After an hour, they both step to the east of the line. Of course, at that place it is Thursday noon. Walt helps Earl set up his tent. Walt returns to his camp. They both spend a delightful time on their respective sides of the line the rest of the day through next day until just before sundown. Earl decides to stay with Walt for the next day and goes to Waltís camp. For the next 24 hours, they spend Thursday night and Friday together doing regular weekday things. Just before sundown, they decide to go to Earlís place. They go, and since it has been six days since their last Sabbath, the observe the time after sundown until the following sundown as a Sabbath. Thus, they worked six days since their last Saturday and observed the next Sabbath mostly on Sunday. After sundown, Walt goes back to his camp. For Earl, it is now Sunday after sundown. For Walt, it is now Saturday after sundown. Five days later, it is Friday night for Earl and they do the same actions again. The following Wednesday morning for Walt on the west of the date line, Walt crosses the line and helps Earl take down his tent. They cross back to the west, dismantle Waltís camp, and leave the island at noon. Within fourteen days, Both Earl and Walt have observed two days worth of Sabbath at sundown, six days after the end of their previous Sabbath. Neither of them broke the Sabbath, but they always observed it on the wrong day of the week. Did I do my calculations right? | ||
| Imunity (Imunity) |
Humorous but did either of them maintain the command to "work six days and rest the seventh"? Imunity | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yep. In the second case, both Walt and Earl worked six daylight periods since their last Saturday Sabbath in California before the Island stay, then rested the next day. After that, another six daylight periods passed, then the next day they did no work. When they got back to California, they would rest on Saturday having worked for six daylight periods since their last rest on the island. However, on the island, for both days of rest, they were resting on Sunday (sundown Saturday through sundown Sunday). | ||
| Imunity (Imunity) |
OIC what you did, I didn't read what you changed carefully enough in the second scenario. The second scenario would be more correct Sabbath Keeping, as the actual 24 hour period you observe is less important than ensuring you rest one day out of seven, even in Adventism. Note that I said less important, not unimportant. Imunity | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Yes, and if they travel around the globe at the right speed from east to west enough times, eventually they can end up in California observing the Sabbath every Wednesday or whatever other day they wish. The "right speed" would probably very reasonable, given jet travel on commercial airlines. | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
This conversation reminds me of an interesting chapter included in H.M. Riggle's 1928 book, "The Sabbath and the Lord's Day" (I believe the chapter is written by Canright though). Because I believe this book to be in the public domain and it is already posted in it's entirety on multiple websites, I have pasted the chapter "Sabbath on a Round Earth" below my signiture. If you would like to browse the entire book you can go here: http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/sabbath/sabbframeset.html Chris Church of God, Carmichael, CA The Sabbath and the Lord's Day H. M. Riggle, 1928 [Original Page Numbers] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Sabbath on a Round Earth* *Much of the substance of this chapter is selected from "Seventh Day Adventism Renounced," by Canright. In their very nature all purely moral laws are universal and eternal in their application, are binding in heaven, in Eden, on Jews or Gentiles, saints or sinners, now or hereafter. Test the particular seventh day, Saturday, by that rule, and it fails everywhere. All the universe might keep a seventh part of time, but not the same seventh part. Not knowing this, see what blunder Mrs. White made. She says: "I saw that the Sabbath would never be done away, but the redeemed saints, and all the angelic host, will observe it in honor of the great Creator, to all eternity."óSpiritual Gifts, vol 1., p. 113. Uriah Smith, a leading Adventist, says: "We infer that the higher orders of his intelligences keep the Sabbath also.... The Sabbath of each of his creatures will be the Sabbath of all the rest, so that all will observe the same period together for the same purpose."óBiblical Institute, page 145. In a discussion held at Oakland, Pa., I publicly asked leading ministers of the Adventist movement whether it is their teaching that God and the angels of heaven keep the seventh day with them. I asked in particular "Do you believe that when the sun sets on Friday evening and you begin keeping Sabbath, that God and the angels begin also to keep the same time, and thus the heavenly hosts and you folks on earth keep the same identical time together?" They both replied: "This is our teaching." Look at the utter absurdity and impossibility of the theory. All intelligent beings in heaven and earth and on all the planets, keep "the same period together." Adventists, like the Jews, keep Sabbath from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32). Now I shall prove by stubborn facts that they cannot all "observe the same period together." Everybody knows that it is Saturday in India some twelve hours sooner than it is here, and that it is Saturday here twelve hours after it has ceased to be Saturday there. In Australia the day begins eighteen hours [26] sooner than it does in California. So the seventh day brethren in California are working nearly the whole time that their brethren in Australia are keeping Sabbath' Come even nearer home than that. The sun sets about three hours later in California than it does in Maine. So when the Seventh day Adventists in Maine begin to keep the Sabbath at sunset Friday evening their own brethren in California, where the sun is yet three hours high, will still be at work for three hours! So very few of them on this earth "observe the same period together." While some of them are keeping Sabbath on one part of the earth, others of them are at work on another part of the earth. How much less, then, do all the heavenly host keep the same period with men on earth. Now, if, as Mrs. White and Uriah Smith say, the angels keep our Sabbath, the question is, With which party do they keep it ? With those in Australia, or those in America ? If the angels keep the Sabbath at the same time the Sabbatarians keep it in Australia, then the Sabbatarians in America are working while the angels keep Sabbath, and so, of course, the angels work while those here rest. So we see how absolutely false and absurd is the theory that all can keep the Sabbath at the same time. Adventists at Washington, D. C., really suppose that when the sun sets Friday evening and they begin keeping Sabbath, the Lord and the angels begin keeping it, too. Oh, what blindness! If the Lord keeps the Sabbath with them at Washington, then he does not keep it with their brethren on the other side of the globe, because they begin the Sabbath at least twelve hours earlier than we do here. In fact, it takes just forty eight hours, or the time of two whole days, from the time any one day begins in the extreme east till it ends at the farthest place in the west. Will the reader stop and think carefully, sharply, on this point, for it is an important one? It takes twenty four hours for the first end of a day to go clear around the earth. Then, as the last end of the day is twenty four hours behind the first end, it must also have twenty four more to go clear around the earth, and that makes fortyeight hours in all that each day is on the earth somewhere. So for the Lord and the heavenly host to keep Sabbath [27] with all the Adventists on earth, they would have to keep the time of two whole days each week. And in that case, those on this side of the earth would be working while the Lord was keeping the Sabbath with those on the other side of the earth; and those on the opposite side of the earth would be working while the Lord was keeping Sabbath with those on this side. Thus, none of them would keep Sabbath with the Lord, after all! In fact, there is not a single hour in the week when there is not some Sabbatarian at work on some part of the earth! What, then, becomes of Mrs. White's statement that "all the angelic hosts" keep our Sabbath? or Uriah Smith's hypothesis that all the universe "will observe the same period together"? Both are utterly absurd. The same definite seventh day cannot be kept by all the universe; even on this earth alone it cannot be kept by all at the same time. This adds another proof that the seventh day Sabbath with its rigorous limitations and exactions, as enjoined in the law, was only a Jewish institution, to be carried out by a small people, in a limited territoryóthe land of Canaan. Under the new dispensation, the gospel was to go to all nations, to all climates, around the earth. Hence the keeping of a definite Sabbath Day is left out of the gospel system, the rest now enjoyed by Christians being a spiritual rest of the soul, every day of the week. Test the seventh day theory in the frozen regions of the north. The law declared that the day must be kept from sunset to sunset (see Lev. 23:32). In the extreme north in the winter there are months when the sun is not seen there at all, so they have no sunset. And again, in summer there are months when the sun is above the horizon all the time, when there is no sunrise. This difficulty confronts the Adventists of northern Sweden and Norway. Here their theory breaks down again. They have to reckon the day by artificial means. This again proves that that law was for the Jews. What endless and needless difficulties people get themselves into trying to keep a law that was designed only for the Jews in a limited locality! How contrary to the freedom and simplicity of the gospel! [28] Another great difficulty that stands in the way of Sabbatarianism is, Where shall we begin the day, If a man's salvation depends upon keeping the same day to the hour that God kept it at creation, then it is infinitely important that we know exactly where his day began, so as to begin ours there too. But the Lord has not said a word about it, nor given the least clue respecting where to begin the day. The day is now generally reckoned to begin at a certain line 180 degrees west from Greenwich, England. It runs north and south through the Pacific Ocean about 4,000 miles west of America. Prof. E. S. Holden of Lick Observatory says: "There is no one date when the day line was established there; but it was during the last hundred years. It was established there for convenience. Besides Greenwich, it has been reckoned from Canary Islands, Tenereffe, Ferro, Paris, Berlin, Jerusalem, Washington, etc." So we see: 1. It is only within the last hundred years that the day line has been fixed where it now is. 2. This was done merely for convenience, not because there was anything in nature requiring it. 3. At different times the day line has been counted from at least seven different places, from Jerusalem in the east to Washington in the west, about 8,000 miles difference, or one third the way around the earth. Hence the beginning of the seventh day has varied this much at different times. 4. In another century it may be changed again. 5. There is just as much authority for one place as the other, and no divine authority for either, as it is all man's work and done at haphazard. 6. Hence so far as duty to God is concerned, any nation, church or society is at liberty to begin the day wherever they please. One place will be just as apt to be in harmony with God's day line as another. Sabbatarians in America can fix their day line in the Atlantic instead of in *e Pacific, and then our Sunday will be Saturday, and they will be all right and convert a nation in a day! Indeed, this is exactly parallel to what Seventh day Adventists have done in the case of a colony in the Pacific Ocean. Pitcairn Island, in the Pacific, was settled one hundred years ago by persons who brought their reckoning eastward from Asia. But it happens to [29] be on the American side of the present day line; hence their Sunday was our Saturday, and they all kept it one hundred years as Sunday. According to Adventists, this was an awful thing, for Sunday is the Pope's Sabbath, the mark of the beast! So the Adventists went there and persuaded them all to keep Saturday. How? They simply induced them to change their reckoning of the day line a few miles, and lo! their Sunday was Saturday! Now they are all pious Sabbath keepers, while before they were keeping Sunday, the mark of the beast! And yet they are keeping exactly the same day they kept before. If this is not hair splitting, tell me what is. It illustrates the childishness of the whole Sabbatarian business. Now let the Adventists just shift their day line a little farther east to include America, and they can keep Sunday with the other people. Does the salvation of a man's soul depend upon such mathematical uncertainties as these? If it does, we may well despair of heaven. The law said keep the seventh day from sunset to sunset (Exod. 20:8 11; Lev. 23:32). Now, let two Adventists start from Chicago, one going east, the other west, around the earth. Each keeps carefully the seventh day as the sun sets. When they meet again at Chicago they will be two days apart! One will be keeping Sunday and the other Friday. How will they now manage it? Each gives up his seventh day, and both take that of the world. So they have only a worldly day, after all. Look, also, at the difficulty in crossing this supposed day line in the Pacific Ocean. Going west, a day is dropped going east it is added, and this is done at noon of the day which finds them nearest the supposed line. On the vessel, a man going west sits down to dinner 11:50 a. m. Friday. While he is eating the time is changed, and he rises from dinner Saturday noon! Then he has only six hours of Sabbath till sunset. But coming east, he sits down to dinner Saturday noon and rises from dinner Friday noon! He has kept eighteen hours Sabbath; then it is gone in a second at high noon, and he has six hours to work till sunset. Now he must begin Sabbath once more and keep it over againótwenty four hours. In one [30] case he keeps only six hours Sabbath, and in the other case he keeps forty two hours! These stubborn facts demonstrate the utter absurdity of the Sabbatarian view. It proves that the strict keeping of days was confined to the Jews in Palestine. [31] | ||
| Imunity (Imunity) |
Hmm, yes there is absurdity in trying to observe the same 24 hour period universe-wide, and I agree that the Adventists are wrong in may things that claim. But Sabbath keeping need not be such a mockery. Keeping one day out of seven, preferrably the seventh day, where it is not confusing to do so is not a problem for 99% of the world. If it were a problem then the Sabbath keeper should not believe that their salvation depends on it anyway. Still seeking but not lost, Imunity | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Hi Imunity, Welcome also... Unfortunately, Adventism doctrine DOES hold to the belief salvation depends on Sabbath-keeping. As long as one of their "fundamental beliefs" keeps Ellen White as a true prophet of God who is, "a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction and correction". (yes, I know...this same belief continues: "the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested." (Fundamental Belief #17). But you just can't have it both ways! There is so much "doublespeak" in Adventism. And Ellen White says that keeping the Sabbath will be the distinction between the true worshippers of God and those who worship the beast and receive his mark... and, (as she saw in a "vision") those who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up will be weighed in the balance and found wanting..."howling in agony". Thank God I am not under that nonsense (dare I say demonic influence?) anymore! I am so grateful for the simplicity of the gospel! I truly am more restful in Christ every day now than trying to focus on a specific day and trying to decide if this would be a holy thing to do in worshiping my Creator. It is hard to explain, but there really IS a different mind-set in seeing Jesus as my Sabbath Rest at all times... Perhaps some may want a different schedule on certain days... But to think of this as being a difference between "sacred" and "secular" activities sets up a subtle legalism. I see all of my life as "sacred". What I do on any day is to be done in gratitude for God's marvelous grace to me. Blessings to you... grace always, cindy ps...watched the Cubs game last night, absolutely relaxed and guiltfree! | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Hi Cindy, Glad you had a great time. We went to a movie today and thoroughly enjoyed that as well, guilt free (and wearing jewelry to boot! ha) I like your observation of seeing all you life as "sacred". It is now all lived as unto God, right. To me to see a part of my life as strictly "secular" would be an indicator that there is something seriously wrong with my understanding of what it means to live in relationship with Christ. We know that as believers,we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The presence of God is here, now, with the fellowship and communion with Him constantly available. There is no need to wait until that one day a week to finally come around. And it makes a huge difference, doesn't it? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree, Cindy and Lydell. The experience of feeling the peace and presence of Jesus all the time and seeing none of my life a secular is one of the biggest changes I've experienced. If there is something in my life so "secular" I should abandon it in order to meet with Jesus, that is something I should eliminate from my life. As a matter of fact, Richard and I have found that many of our tastes have changes gradually over the past five years. We are much more conscious of living with Jesus and of being accountable to him than we used to be. The great irony in all of this is that the more conscious I am of Jesus' presence and of the triviality of some things I used to enjoy, the more free I feel. I reminds me of the passage in Romans where Paul says we have been set free from sin and have become slaves of Jesus Christ. Being a slave to Christ is, paradoxically enough, true freedom. I praise Him that he has resolved the nearly continuous, existential angst I used to live with. When I begin to feel overwhelmed and frantic, if I am turn to Him and ask him to help me accomplish what's he wants me to do and to trust him for time and energy, he is faithful to do what I could never do alone. I remember hearing Dr. Richard Nies, a well-known Adventist clinical psychologist and Bible student, say once that Jesus promised to meet us in a special way if we would meet him on the Sabbath. Even then, in the 80's, I wondered where he read that. I realize now that it was not in the Bible. True Sabbath rest is one of the biggest miracles in my life. Praise Jesus for Sabbath rest! Colleen | ||
| Imunity (Imunity) |
Hi Cindy & Lydell, - Yes I know the Adventists position on Sabbath keeping and EGW and disagree with them and left the church due to these and a couple other things that I could no longer support or follow, but I do believe in the literal Genesis creation account, the validity of the ten commandments for New Testament Christians, and Sabbath keeping. - My belief is that salvation in Christ is the one and only requirement for salvation, period. A saved Christian will always do the utmost to follow Christ and that is what I am doing. What I feel is right and biblical I must do, and I don't judge another who is doing their best to follow Christ and yet disagree with what I just said. - Sabbath keeping should not be a burden, if it comes to that I will drop it. Sure, I have had thoughts of giving it up, but I don't see the reason for it at least yet. - My version of Sabbath keeping is to do just as the 4th commandment says - spend one day in seven (preferrably the seventh day) in "Sabbath rest". This may be attending worship, time in the word, voluntary community work, etc., as long as it is not considered a normal work day. I would prefer to keep it as purely a day with God as possible but I am not going to fear damnation if I run out of milk and have to run to the store. If I ever do find that I no longer can believe in Sabbath keeping it won't be like I am finally free of that dreadful way because I am and always will be doing to the glory of God. - As far as having to wait for the Sabbath to worship or do spiritual things, I never did think like that, and I don't know an Adventist who does although there probably are lots. That is one problem I finally started to see in the church - while they say a lot of things that are right, they negate it all in other ways (doublespeak as Cindy said) and a good amount of their flock are legalists because of it, most marginally but some extremely so. God bless! Imunity | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
According to the "inspired" counsels of Ellen White, Adventists should not even shave on the Sabbath nor polish their shoes. Growing up Adventist in western North Dakota, it was considered sinful to even take a bath during the Sabbath hours. An elderly, devout Adventist gentleman told me that he took a bath on the Sabbath; consequently, the Lord rebuked him with a cold. Can you even remotely imagine that the Israelites would have considered going to a secular, heathen, Philistine restaurant or store on the Sabbath? Or, one that served or sold unclean foods? The official GC website has about thirty pages of Sabbath rules. Despite these strict GC prohibitions, Adventists are increasingly flocking to restaurants and stores on the Sabbath. I see even high profile SDAs in restaurants on the Sabbath here in College View, a suburb of Lincoln, Nebraska--also known as "old Jerusalem" and "peanut hill." Being that Adventists theoretically believe the "death decree" to be a reality very shortly, I recently asked an SDA apologist if he was really frightened and jittery to open the front door of his home. After all, most of his neighbors would probably be a part of the "death decree" enforcement mob. Also, being they consider non-Adventists as most likely to murder and steal, it must really be a terrifying life for a devout Adventist. However, true to my surmising, they really don't believe such things for the short term. He said my thoughts were ridiculous. He did not fear his doomed neighbors--not even the Catholics. Their end-time scenario hasn't scared them yet (smile). Sadly though, their "time of trouble" and "Great Controversy" stories frighten their children with nightmares. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Hoytster (Hoytster) |
Where / what is "the official GC website"? Does that stand for General Conference? Thanks, Hoytster | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I think it's www.adventist.org it does stand for General conference, they have one for each region, but I think that is the main site. | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
The other, very comprehensive site for all things SDA is: www.tagnet.org | ||
| Jtree (Jtree) |
Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children-last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2002 |
Last night I was telling my jW sister-in-law about the recent earthquake that his real hard in my area. She then asked me if I knew how come the Jahovah's Wittnesses are always going to be the safest and most best protected people in an earthquake. I didn't know so she told me. It's because they are always standing in doorways. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2004 |
After reading all this talk about the time differences around the world and that Jesus and all heaven keep the Sabbath, per EGW, I got to thinking about a text I remembered about there being no need of a sun or moon in heaven. So I searched for it. It is Revelation 21:23. "The city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, because God's glory illumines it and the Lamb is its light. v.25-....for there will be no night there". That tells me that God is not keeping track of the days so they can keep the Sabbath. They have no need to do that. Resting in Christ every day is what we will be doing in heaven and that can start here on earth. Thank you God for that. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 523 Registered: 11-2002 |
Reading a recent issue of the review I found a small article about a lot of "Sunday-keeping" churches now having a Saturday service for their members who cannot make it to the Sunday service. True to form the author of the article in the Review made sure everyone knows that the loyal and ever faithful SDA's will never compromise their devotion to the true Sabbath. That with Sunday-keepers now meeting to have church on Saturdays we know even more how deep in sin these commandment breakers really are. SDA's will never compromise the truth. I thought I'd place this under the topic, "humor" because this forum does not have a topic titled, "pathetic". The entire article was only about 1/3 page long, took the reader round and round in circles, gave me a churning sensation in my stomach and I left wondering how come ANYONE falls for that total non-logic. |
