| Author |
Message |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 86
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 10:35 am: |     |
When I was an SDA if I ever expressed any doubt or had any questions that were different, I was not supposed to question or doubt. It appeared that no one in the SDA church had any problems. They were perfect.
Thank God, I can at last admit I am human and that I can tell God that and can tell Him exactly what is going on in my life, whether I like it or not, and how I feel about it. Then I tell Him, that I do not like to sugarcoat my life and attitudes and feelings when I talk to Him, because He knows what is going on in my head, but I have to admit what ever is going on and say it is mine and no one elses. If I do not admit it is mine, how can God take it?? When I pray like this, I am open to God's answer and accepting of it.
I thank God I am no longer a perfect SDA. I am a human in need of Jesus and his blood. I do not understand God, but that is okay as He understands me.
Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 82
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Colleen,
Your encounter with biblical Christianity is very similar to what I have also experienced. I also used to wonder why I became so emotional during the Sunday morning worship service. Yes, admittedly, I frequently had tears streaming from my eyes. Indeed, the Holy Spirit was touching my heart. This never happened when I was still an Adventist. They would have immediately made some type of a negative judgment if I was found crying in church. Truly, this type of emotion would have been criticized and/or analyzed by many as a personal problem on my part. Like Diana well stated, we used to be perfect. If someone asked us how we were doing, we would always quickly reply, "great" or "doing fine, thanks."
I remember, one morning in our adult Sunday School class, two parents were revealing major problems about their children that had happened that very week. These were serious problems. We prayed and expressed compassion and concern for those children. Importantly, we did not think any less of those parents as a result of their sharing this information. Indeed, we did not judge them as having inadequate parenting skills or having an inferior Christian experience. It was so different from an adult Sabbath School class where such things would never be mentioned.
I soon realized that Christ-followers really need each other. Furthermore, we can trust each other--even about serious matters. We no longer have to hide our burdens and heartaches from each other. We can unitedly tell Jesus about our burdens and joys.
Yesterday, while I was watching the dedication of the new World War II monument on CNN, I carefully listened to the closing prayer offered by the SDA Chaplain Black from the United States Senate. He had earlier indicated in a Washington Post interview, that he would never use the name of Jesus in his public prayers. His prayer yesterday started out saying "Eternal Spirit" and he never used the name of Jesus.
Being the Senate search committee spent many months listening to taped sermons and prayers from applicants, they found the Christless sermons and prayers of an SDA chaplain most ideal. They were reportedly impressed with his frequent reference to various philosophers in his sermons. In our secular culture today, it appears that being appointed as the Senate Chaplain no longer carries the distinction of being deeply religious. On the contrary, they choose only the most liberal clergymen. It is most amazing that Adventists can be proud of his Christless prayers.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 560
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 31, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
Dennis, I also watched that WWII Memorial dedication (on "Sabbath"!) and noticed the same thing you did. I thought it was odd that Barry Black addressed his prayer to "Eternal Spirit" and did not use Jesus' name. I had not heard of the background of his interview and selection...
cindy |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 92
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 8:30 am: | |
What a way to represent Christ!! Isn't there a Bible text that says something to the effect if you deny me, I will deny you before the Father???
That prayer sounds almost heathen. American Indians prayed to a Great Spirit. At least they were honest about it.
It appears to me that the chaplain is denying Christ before the whole country. |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 68
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 7:16 pm: | |
Dennis and Colleen, I can echo your experiences with responding emotionally when the Holy Spirit shows up. It wasnít until I was processing out of Adventism that I understood the Holy Spirit. Then I could start to sense how strongly he seemed to be present in any given situation. I remember turning on Christian TV one morning when I was doing my treadmill and I caught the middle of a song, ěHis Eye is On the Sparrow.î Now I donít particularly like that song. And it was being sung by an elderly woman veerrrryyyy slowly. Yet within 30 seconds tears were streaming down my face as I was hit by the power of the Holy Spirit in my family room. Then I noticed that as the camera panned the large audience, there were people of all ages responding exactly as I was.
Why does the Holy Spirit show up so seldom in Adventist churches? I know many SDAs who long for Godís presence to be poured out yet it doesnít happen. Is it because of the doubt and unbelief from the majority?
Praise GodÖ
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 273
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 8:43 pm: | |
Yes, Praisegod, that's my assessment. I don't believe that the majority of Adventists are truly born again. They are "owned" by a deception, even unwittingly, and they are barricaded by that deception from knowing the truth about Jesus.
Remember that Jesus said blasphemy agains the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin? Well--please don't hear me saying that Adventists have committed the unpardonable sin, because as individuals I don't believe most of them have--but as an organization I think they may have shut off the transforming power of the Spirit by calling Sabbath the Seal of God (or now, the Sign of the Seal). The Holy Spirit is the seal of God, not a day. As an official teaching, Adventism has replaced the mark of new birth--the presence of the indwelling God--with the observance of a day. I suspect that the lack of the Holy Spirit's presence in most Adventist worship services has something to do with what Adventism teaches and stands for.
I continue to pray that God will draw those with honest hearts that want the truth to Himself.
Colleen |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 563
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 8:52 pm: | |
Colleen, I hadn't thought of it in the way you phrased it above, but I think you really are correct in equating Adventism' view of the 7th-day "Sabbath" observance with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
To call the Sabbath either a "sign" or a "seal" of God is truly taking away from the sufficiency of Jesus...and the Holy Spirit as our comfort and guide in daily living.
Just this week a close Adventist relative of mine said (in remarking about someone they knew), "you know, she really loves Jesus...but she needs to know the 'truth'."
Meaning of course Adventism and the "identifying mark" of the "remnant church", the "Sabbath".
It is unbelievably sad to me. This is a very real denial of Jesus' finished work for us.
cindy |
Leigh
Registered user
Username: Leigh
Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 4:37 am: | |
I agree Colleen and Cindy.
John 14:6 tells us what/Who the truth is.
"Jesus saith unto him,I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
The "Truth" is not a day, a denomination or the words of a nineteenth century "prophet." The truth is Jesus Christ.
Another way I believe the Adventist Church (as a whole, some individuals do not)blasphemes the Holy Spirit, is by looking to EGW and church doctrine for interpretation of scripture instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to speak to them. |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 4:48 pm: | |
I have been reading 2 Timothy. In chapter 3 verse 5 it talks about people in the last day having a form of godliness but denying its power. When I read this verse, my thoughts were that Paul was describing my religion in the last several years. I had been going to church weekly and trying to please God, but did not have the Holy Spirit working in my life. Praise God the Holy Spirit can work in our hearts! Thank you Praise God for the prayer book recommendation. Thank you Jenntooth for the post on prayer, no I had not heard of the ACTS method of prayer. |
Sheryl
Registered user
Username: Sheryl
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 5:43 pm: | |
I noticed the thread topic and felt compelled to write something. While growing up, in the SDA faith, our Dad actually took us to other churches on occasion to see and experience different doctrine I guess. I always wondered about the Holy Spirit and how He manifests in the church. I had kind of known or suspected that my emotional tears at times were evidence of His presence, but was uncomfortable in the SDA congregations, showing this. Others had tears. Since I left that denomination, I have noticed that my experience of sensing His presence is more intense, no falling down, but when He is present, I feel the need to kneel or to be on my face. I don't lay on my face of course, but the immediate reaction is to do this. I saw a post earlier mentioning watching a religious program while on the treadmill, ironically I had a visit by the Holy Spirit while using my treadmill, I had to stop the treadmill for awhile. Have others experienced episodes like this? I know that to even mention this in a SDA church would have been met with skepticism. I for one have never been "slain in the spirit", but do believe that there may be gifts from the Holy Spirit, the use should be done in decency and order. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 886
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 7:16 pm: | |
My reply isn't exactially answering your question/topic but anyway I want to share this observation. I can't remember any time ever hearing a sermon in a SDA church about the Holy Spirit. Other than acknowledging the Holy Spirit in prayer and in their 27 fundamentals and in their baptismial requirements does the SDA church actually believe in an active Holy Spirit? At the Lutheran where I go I get get a regular dose of Holy Spirit in sermons, Bible studies and classs. And, of course, Penticost Sunday is a big deal. Other than giving the Holy Spirit lip service just what does the SDA teach on this? |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 158
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 8:22 am: | |
Good observation, and good question, Susan.
I can't remember having heard a sermon on the Holy Spirit in an SDA church either.
Officially, I think they recognize the Holy Spirit. But in practice, I think they are afraid of anything that seems "spiritual".
And how does their definition of the Holy Spirit fit in with EGWs idea that your spirit is just breath from God? -If anyone knows, by all means, share.
When i started talking about the guidance of the Holy Spirit to SDAs in college, they definitely seemed uncomfortable. I heard several people that thought the Holy SPirit's job was just to convict,kind of like a "super-conscience". Almost like the Holy SPirit was just the hall monitor, following them around looking over their shoulders all the time. - Not a very positive association...
But I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this too. |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 112
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 10:57 am: | |
As SDA I had no concept of the Holy Spirit past throwing in the name during prayer. As stated, I suspect the emphasis is that it is the Holy Spirit working silently without you knowing it that gets people to show up at the Revelation Seminars, church or whatever if you really pinned SDAs down.
There is no way the SDA church can acknowledge the Holy Spirit and teach people how to walk in the Spirit and hear from God for themselves because then they would lose control. The system doesnít allow for individual thinking and certainly not for questions.
I remember over a year before I even realized I was questioning anything that I was teaching a SS class and someone was commenting about how the Holy Spirit had directed her to call a friend she hadnít talked to in a long time and how the call was providential. We had a guest that week, a pastor from out of town. He jumped into the conversation so fast. Very critical about the fact ěyou canít be led by your feelingsî and so forth. While I knew something was really wrong, I didnít have enough knowledge to correct him on the spot. While I got the subject changed, I felt horrible for the way he chastised my class member who, if truth be known, was functioning on a much higher level of spirituality than his legalism based on fear. Itís incidents like those that built up until God really had my attention.
Praise God...
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Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 113
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 11:10 am: | |
Oh, I forgot to add this, Sheryl. I was the one who mentioned about the treadmill. God has taken me from a left-brained, emotionless SDA to someone who really seeks to hear from the Holy Spirit. I find that as I spend time in the Word, that it just opens up my ability to hear the Holy Spirit speaking to me.
Personally, I would love to be a regular member of a church where you could be laying flat on your face if thatís how the Holy Spirit directed you to worship. Iíve attended places where there is a freedom to worship as God directs. Iíve found it to be worshipful, reverential and very Spirit-filled. Thatís in contrast to my years as SDA where you would have been run out of a rail if you even thought about raising a hand in praise to God while singing. If we could only get past our concern about what men think and focus of what God wants from us. I so enjoy attending where no one seems the slightest bit interested in how others are worshipping because they are focused on their own worship to God.
A week or so ago I heard the definition of religion as being someone who believed God moved up until their ideas of doctrines. Well, it was phrased better than that, but you get the idea. If we are so focused upon tradition, we may miss whatever the Holy Spirit is trying to do with us and the Church today.
Praise GodÖ
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Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 629
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 1:00 pm: | |
Sheryl, I've had the experience of an incredible sense of peace falling on me while someone was praying for me. It was as if the world had melted away, and there was nothing but peace. It made my knees weak for several hours afterwards. I've seen people kneel, lay on their faces, dance, bounce, the worship team let go of their musical instruments unable to play for the need to raise their hands in worship at our church. I've seen tears rolling down the faces of an unsaved person who was in a worship service. They didn't have a clue why or what it was, they just knew that they were feeling something they'd never known before. There are also those times when everyone suddenly stops and is very silent and still before the consuming power of His presence.
It's really amazing that some are so against the idea of us showing some kind of physical reaction when we are deeply aware of the presence of God. We see Him touching people body, soul, and spirit all through the scriptures. So why wouldn't it happen today as well! It's all because of our strange western mindset of the "intellect" being all important.
But I have realized so strongly over the last handful of years that our relationship with the Lord is so much more than just our minds. Absolutely the intellectual part of it is SO important! But, our relationship with Him is so much more. It is our spirits that are oh so involved in our relationship with Him. Otherwise, there WOULD be something that could seperate us from contact with Him...for instance the one who is on their deathbed, the body cutting ties with the earth.
I saw this so clearly when my mom, a deeply committed Christian, had a stroke in December. All her ability to communicate was taken away. In the months since then she has been able to tell me that for some time after the stroke, she was unable to even "think prayer".
At least she couldn't pray in what she always thought was prayer....thinking thoughts to God, or speaking words. And I know of a certainty that was the most desperately frightening part of the whole experience to her....she felt she couldn't tell her Lord what was happening. Doesn't that break your heart?! Hopefully I have been able to help her realize that the Lord doesn't need the clutter of her words to know what is in her spirit when she is communicating with Him! |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
I was on the truthorfables or xsda website this week and read the most incredible account of EGW and Brother James (before they were married around 1844, I think) involved in a court case. I read the article published in a Farm newspaper at that time with utter disbelief. The story makes it sound like they were attending a meeting but in today's standard it sounded like an orgy! They were "spouse swapping" (kissing - they called it "holy kiss" claiming the Bible supported it), crawling across floors in what sounded very wanton! The excuse was that they were "worshipping"! And to think I was raised to believe that music in church that would cause me to tap my toes was too "wild".
I LOVE music! Being free in Christ has given me a whole new avenue to praise God!
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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 155
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 8:35 pm: | |
Dd,
I am glad that you have a joyful song in your heart. "Clap your hands, all you peoples; shout to God with loud songs of joy" (Ps. 47:1 NRSV). Being in Christ, we have alot to rejoice about. Music is a wonderful language in which we can celebrate our salvation. As the contemporary Christian song declares, "Heaven awaits for us to join in to praise and exalt our Almighty Creator."
In praise of Him,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 105
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 8:45 am: | |
Lydell,
You and I posted together at the same time and I missed your note yesterday. I am so sorry for the experience you and your mother have been through - it must have been very tough. Your story of your mother feeling hopeless in her prayers made me think of the promise of Romans 8:26:
"...THE SPIRIT ALSO HELPS OUR WEAKNESS; FOR WE DO NOT KNOW HOW TO PRAY AS WE SHOULD, BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF INTERCEDES FOR US WITH GROANINGS TO DEEP FOR WORDS..."
I LOVE that promise! |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 106
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 8:52 am: | |
Oops! The website for the incredible story of EGW and "worship" is:
ellenwhite.org
It's in the Featured Articles and it's called "THE ARREST AND TRIAL OF ISRAEL DAMMON". |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 630
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 1:25 pm: | |
Thanks Dd. Yes it has been very tough indeed. But God has been so good.
We do the "20 questions game" frequently with mom trying to figure out what she means to communicate to us. That is made all the more interesting by her often confusing her "yes/no" head motions. And then there is the little matter of the times her brain locks on to the task of communicating A particular point and she is literally unable to disconnect from it to answer your yes/no question. In daily life this can be frustrating. But the potential is always there in dealing with the medical to be downright dangerous, ya know?
She can speak a small handful of words now with help, say my nickname finally, her gestures have improved greatly (praise God!!!), she can read a bit now (one of the things that bothers her most is being unable to read her Bible...now there is a true legacy for you!), and sometimes writes words quite well. Every hour of every day is a new one. We just work with what we have, and are thankful for it.
We are thankful that the stroke didn't impare her physical mobility. She can still quilt! YES!
But I have learned one thing very clearly through this time, and I am passing it on for everyone's information for those who have not been there. There ARE times in a persons life when "oh, just think....it could have been so much worse" is the WRONG thing to say.
If someone is in a position where they can reach "worse" literally in a heartbeat, and they aren't handling things so great today, you really are not encouraging them in telling them to be thankful it isn't worse. Instead you are, in effect, reminding them that even tho they feel overwhelmed and a failure today, there is great potential a moment from now to do far worse....great!
Yep, has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Just popped into my head.
Anyway, I was thinking today just what worship will sound like at the throne...fun to ponder, isn't it? |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 107
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 3:29 pm: | |
Lydell,
Please know that you are in my prayers. Many times we say to the person, who is actually experiencing the afflition, that we are praying for them and over look those who live the ups and downs with the person they love so dearly. I will, of course, remember your mother, but I am praying for the presence of God to fill you with peace, words to express your love, and ways to understand His will in all this. I am sure you are filled with "why" questions to God. I wish I could answers those same questions myself for the trials in my life. All we can do is "take His yoke and lean on Him". I am praying that you will find the rest in Jesus today and it will give you peace and comfort throughout this ordeal. |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 631
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 6:58 am: | |
Thanks so much Dd!...please know the timing of your message, and some specific words you used were a "God thing".! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 639
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:46 am: | |
Lydell, thanks for the really great advice not to mention how much worse things could be. That's really true. Still praying for you and your mom!
Speaking of how Adventists think/teach re: the Holy Spirit--I believe one or the reasons SDAs haen't been too clear on the Spirit is that their anti-Trinitarian views in the founding years of the church still permeate the church's perspective. Adventists really don't, in general, think of the Holy Spirit as a person. Instead, He is a power, a special burst of energy from God that helps people do God's work. They will SAY He is the "third person of the Godhead", but they don't know what to do with or how to think of Him.
Further, they are unclear about the identity and role of the Holy Spirit because they have no understanding that their own spirits are more than breath. If a human spirit is merely breath, then the new birth is a mystery, an enigma they can't explain. Instead of being a literal divine birth of a human spirit previously dead in sin, the new birth to most Adventists is a decision to follow Christ or join the church--or even baptism. (I've heard Adventists say they were born again when they were baptized.) In general, Adventists don't understand the new birth, a fact which also means they don't really know what/Who the Holy Spirit is.
In spite of having all the right words now, Adventism still has heavy carry-overs from the Arian beliefs of the early Adventists: Jesus is someow less powerful, less God-like than the Father, and the Holy Spirit is a power from God that wrought miracles at Pentecost (what SDAs call the "early rain"), and that will again bring miracles at the time of the "latter rain" for which they pray. They really don't have a sense of living in the Latter Rain now, along with all the church since Pentecost.
Praise God for making us new!
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 110
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:42 am: | |
Don't you think that many people find a loss of "control" if they were to believe the Holy Spirit was a real power? Especially in light of being taught that we can achieve our own salvation by keeping the law...
When we believe that we are not capable to obtaining salvation and that must accept the guidance, direction, love, knowledge from a "Spirit", we loss all control...I think that is a hard concept for people who thrive on power/control.
Praise God I don't have to do it myself!!! |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:51 am: | |
Dd,
That's a really good point! I'm going to have to ponder it awhile. It's terrifying to contemplate 'losing control', but so freeing when you 'let go and let God'!
helovesm2 |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 165
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | |
A loss of control is EXACTLY what I felt when i took a huge leap of faith last year. My husband and i had to cut away every security net that we thought we had, and trust God to provide.
And God has blessed us 10 times over for that leap - in the spiritual sense, and in hard cold reality (finances).
I fully believe God does want us to trust in Him for everything from salvation, to food on the table. To be able to say "yes" to God before we even know what wild crazy thing he might ask us to do.
Initially, it did make me anxious. Now, I realize that I don't have to worry about being in control, the HE is in control, and I have less anxiety than I have ever had in my life.
It is a little like free-falling. Scary as heck to let go, but a very rewarding, beautiful, peaceful experience once you are drifting under His power. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 646
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:30 am: | |
You describe the experience so well, Tanya. It's so hard to let go of one's control over income, lifestyle, worship style, truth, right and wrong--yet Jesus said we weren't to worry about what we eat, drink, or wear--our heavenly Father knows we need those things. Our only concern is to seek His kingdom and His righteousness, and all those daily concerns will be provided for us.
You know, I believe one reason Adventists (although trust is a human problem!) have trouble trusting Jesus and believing that He will not allow us to be led astray if we give up our mental and willful control is that EGW warned people not to give up control of their minds to hypnotism, etc. That, she said, is how people get sucked into evil.
To give up one's beliefs in favor of being taught by the Holy Spirit from the Bible feels a bit like givng up that mental control Ellen warned about. In fact, I think that many Adventists sort of fear the Holy Spirit because it seems to them to be a sort of good spirit possession, like demon possession except it's from God. If one gave up control to an "unknown" Spirit, how would he know he would hang onto "truth"? What might God make him do that would look foolish and embarassing? Besides, What's the Holy Spirit, Anyway??
There is great peace in giving up control, but a very great fear before deciding to jump off that cliff and trust Him! God is completely faithful. He never deceives us, and He never fails us.
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 114
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 1:35 pm: | |
Another reason SDA's (at least this was my own experience) overlook the Holy Spirit is that we were taught that Jesus was able to obtain perfection and He is our example. The underlying message being that if I tried hard enough, I could be perfect like Him.
The more I know the more I want to know...
Give me Jesus...give me His Spirit...only through Him... |
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