| Author | Message | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2002 |
So churches adding services to make it more convenient for people to praise and worship Jesus Christ PROVES how sin-filled those churches are? How absurd! It just goes to show how bass-ackwards legalism can get a person (and an organization). Praise God that He called me from such bondage of thinking, and Praise Him for the added services! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 313 Registered: 7-2003 |
I am quite amazed at their spin on Saturday services outside of adventism. It brings 2 questions to mind: Is the Sabbath really the issue (since there are now worship services on the "correct" day) or is it realy all about being Adventist under the guise of "keeping the Sabbath". Secondly, it seems to me they might begin to question how much we really "keep" Sunday because I know they'd rather build a bigger building and would NEVER consider services on Sunday to be "convenient" for their member's lifestyles. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 229 Registered: 12-2003 |
H-m-m-m--I wonder why the article didn't comment on the Adventist church in Nevada that started a Sunday-meeting Community Church a few years ago expressly for the purpose of drawing people in, engaging them in Bible studies, and then transitioning them into the regular SDA church within six months or so? The Pac. Union Recorder ran a feature story about this church some months after it was established. (Whether it still exists or not, I don't know--this all happened around 1998-1999.) Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 321 Registered: 7-2003 |
The SDA Celebration church in Redlands, CA was doing this as well about 1-2 years ago (not sure if they still do a Sun. "outreaach" service or not). When my sister, who was then a member, told me about this I remember thinking it seemed like kind of a bate and switch tactic. The idea was to transition them to Sabbath keeping by bringing them in through these Sunday services.....kind of a "the end justifies the means" operation. Chris | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 530 Registered: 11-2002 |
In my community the Nazarine church has a Saturday afternoon praise and worship service. Apparently a significant number of SDA's had began attending the Naz on Saturday afternoons. Now the SDA church holds it's own Sabbath afternoon worship and praise time, not really calling it a service. So, I concluded that the motive here is to keep SDA's ONLY in the confinds of the SDA rhelm religiouselly. I hope this makes sense. My mom once asked me if when I'm gone over the weekends if I ever attend church on Sabbath. I told her I generally do. She asked which church I go to when I'm in the Southern California area over the Sabbath. I told her I like to catch the Saturday afternoon service over at St. Timothy's Lutheran in Lakewood. She told me that doesn't count because Lutheran's "don't keep the Sabbath" and going to a Lutheran church on Sabbath is not keeping Sabbath. It's going "to a Sunday-keeping church on Saturday". | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 321 Registered: 7-2003 |
Doesn't that just make it about being Adventist is "sabbath clothing"? Seems as long as you're not SDA, there truly is no other issue, not even the heralded Sabbath, that matters. My church has also started Saturday evening services to accommodate the crowds. But it's still not the same...even though it's before sunset.... It gets really tiring being inferior all the time...spoken and unspoken.... | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 35 Registered: 7-2000 |
God could have made animals out of anything. He chose to make them out of meat. Sounds like an invitation to me! | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 243 Registered: 7-2000 |
Right! Fire up the BBQ!  | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Loneviking, Actually, I'm getting ready to fire up the microwave. SDAs would say, I've got more time for misbehavin' since I been microwavin'! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 538 Registered: 11-2002 |
Melissa, yes, it really is about being SDA a whole lot more than it is even about the Sabbath or any other doctrine. Fot around 6 years I regurally attended the Seventh-day Baptist church in Santa Barbara. Unfortunatelly for our small group the church disbanded as it was a very small congreation and the minister got the opportunity to take over the pastorship at a rather large SDB church down in one of the southeran states and it was during this time that through a number of leadings from Our Heavenly Father I was led to the local Lutheran church where I now attend. However, I once saw a bumper sticker on a car at the post office that said, "Jesus kept the 7th-day Sabbath holy. Do you?" The lady whose car it was saw me reading her bumper sticker and she asked me if I knew what it was in referance to. I told her I did as I attended the Seventh-day Baptist church weekly. She then went on to tell me that since I obviouselly already had the truth of the Sabbath then I should give my whole heart to God and accept doing His whole will and become Seventh-day Adventist. So, I figured then and there it's not being Christian that is the #1 priority, it's not even about the Sabbath. It is wholly about the SDA denomination and the denominational hold over a person. | ||
| Gatororeo7 Registered user Username: Gatororeo7 Post Number: 131 Registered: 4-2002 |
I recently bought and read through a copy of Dale Ratzlaff's Cultic Doctrine. Towards the end he lists marks of a cult and how Adventism fits. He made a point I have to agree with: even though SDA didnt fit all his marks of a cult, how many does it take for SDA to be considered a cult? I think Susan, the story you just mentioned emphasizes the SDA position that only they are saved, and that people within that system are completely comtrolled by it. | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2003 |
"Jesus kept the 7th-day Sabbath holy" Uh, did she overlook the Gospels? Jesus deliberately healing on the Sabbath, multiple times, with the Pharisees watching, knowing they would object, just to make the point?! Justifing his disciple's taking of the grain?! "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."!! It is so clear to someone from outside that culture. Sorry, I'm preaching to the choir here, but I find it so frustrating. "I'm like Jesus and you're not!" Sorry, I disagree. - Hoytster | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hoyster, my historic SDA, AU-graduate Brother once said to me "well you go right ahead and worship God any way you want, and I will continue to worship Him the way HE wants". How self-righteous legalism makes a person! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 240 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, my goodness, Freeatlast! How did you contain yourself when you heard that comment? The odd thing is, Hoytster, that "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" is one of the texts Adventists use to prove that we must keep it. It's like this: the Sabbath is a delight. It's For Us! We honor it and keep it holy because it was desgined to be for our rest, refreshment, assurance, etc. Of course it's not a burden; it's a very great gift! Yep--it's all about us! God made this eternal institution for our benefit. It really is quite twisted. I remember the "aha!" I experienced when I realized that the text that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath meant that Jesus overarched and was bigger than the Sabbath, not the other way around. I had always pictured that text meaning Jesus was the reigning monarch over Sabbath, like the queen reigns over England. England is bigger than the queen; she just has specific sovereignty over it. It, however, is greater and more nearly eternal than she is. I always thought Sabbath was an eternal institution over which Jesus was in charge. In a perverse way, that thinking was right. Sabbath rest is eternal, but not as a reality apart from Jesus. It's in him! Oh, my--the subtle twists of interpretation that look more and more sinister as time passes... Praise God for guiding us into truth! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 546 Registered: 11-2002 |
Since this columm is titled, Humor, I will put in some humorous things about the current topic. Although it may not really be humorous but more on the pathetic side. I always wondered as a kid who made up the rules of correct Sabbath keeping. For instance, I was allowed to swim in a lake, river or the ocean on Sabbath but not in a swimming pool because lakes, rivers and oceans were natural creations, gifts from God and not man made for just our pleasure. Then I found out that most of the lakes in my area really are man-made because they have the dams that generate power to the community but by the time I was old enough to figure that out I didn't care enough about it to confront my family on this illogic. I always had to wear a dress from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday (not while sleeping, I got to wear pajamas then) and I couldn't wear pants on Sabbath because dresses were more respectful attire than pants. But, I'd spend a summer with my favorite aunt each year over summer vacation and she, too was a devoted SDA and not only did I wear pants at her place on Sabbaths, I would get on the bikes and go with the neighbor kids (we all had bikes), and we all had BB guns, and we'd go to the local dump and we'd shoot rats for our entertainment for Saturday afternoons. We'd get to playing cowboys and Indians and we'd shoot each other, too. It was my most fun Sabbaths I ever had as a kid. My parents always took the newspaper and they would read it at breakfast, even on Sabbaths. They also took their mail from their mailboxes and would read it. My friends family though would not bring in their newspaper or their mail until the sun set on Saturdays. When my son was a little boy he went to 2nd grade at the SDA school. One week he wanted to spend Saturday with a certain little boy. The mother asked me what my plans were for the kids and I told her I'd take them to the zoo for the afternoon. She told me I could not take her child to the zoo on Sabbath because the zoo charged adnission and her family doesn't spend money on Sabbath. I offered to pay his admission but I was told no money was to be spent on the behalf of any of their family on sabbath. I packed a picnic and took the boys to a playground. Then several weeks later my son invited a different little boy to spend the next Sabbath with us. This childs dad was even on the church board and was an elder. When his mom asked me what my plans were for the kids I told her I'd like to take the kids to the zoo for the afternoon. She was all happy that we'd be spending the day gawking at Gods creation and even sent the boys little sister along with us and even sent the money for their admissions as well as momey to get them snacks at the zoo snack bar. I guess it's a totally personal thing and each SDA makes up his or her own rules on proper Sabbath keeping. And, none of it is Bibical. Then there's my SDA cousin, the lush who even teaches Sabbath school and comes home from church on Saturdays to suck down her brew. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 60 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, this reminds me of an aunt, who came to visit us one Sabbath. My sisters and I were playing with our dolls outside under the fig tree. She came outside and in a strict voice told us we should not be playing with the dolls on Sabbath. We did not pay any attention to her as our parents did not say anything to us. This also brings back other memories, such as reading the Readers Digest on Sabbath, my Dad reading the newspaper on Sabbath, picking up our mail on Sabbath and my Mom's attitude toward our half sister and brother. She hated them and treated them rotten. It would be called child abuse today. When my half sister went to see her before Mom died, Mom gave her a very hateful look which even my niece(my sister's daughter) noticed. Mom used to buy small books, like Steps to Christ and give them to every one she encountered, but she could not love her stepchildren. Mom was an SDA. I have not been able to reconcile that one, but that is okay, because God is in charge and makes the judgement on it and I do not have to. Thank God for Jesus. Diana | ||
| Jonalaska Registered user Username: Jonalaska Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2004 |
Dear friends, this is my first post since leaving the SDA Church a few weeks ago. I am glad the Lord gave me a sense of humor, because without one the whole process of leaving would have been very hurtful to me and my wife. It wasn't until we stepped outside of the SDA box that we could begin to see and experience the incredible blindness of the institution. I had read an article by a former Adventist a couple of years ago, saying the Adventist Church had become just like what it feared and despised the most --- the Roman Catholic Church. I am starting to think that guy might have been right. This has been quite an Inquisition-like experience. It all started when I decided to do some ministry work outside of the SDA church. I affiliated with an Evangelical church, and they issued me a credential based on my known pastoral experience, education, reference, criminal background check, etc. When the SDA pastor found out I had been associating with Evangelicals, he actually issued me a ìsummonsî to a business meeting/inquisition to determine my fate. It broke his heart when I told him before this meeting that I had already told the conference president to have his secretary make sure to to revoke my membership and remove me from the church rollsóand that neither he, the State conference, The Union Conference, the General Conference, or the Vatican had any authority to ìsummonsî me. By the way, I also let the conference president know that over $6300.00 had been diverted from local church funds to non-SDA religious organizations last year, and wondered why nobody had been censured for that? It just gets weirder and weirder. Someone in particular here violated clear church fiduciary policy to divert local SDA church funds to other denominationsóincluding a Roman Catholic entity, and was re-elected as an elder! But when I associated with Evangelicals I was called "disloyal, divisive, and apostate" (the Pastor quoted this to me from EGW to prove his point)? OK, and then I told the pastor that all but one member of the church board (besides me and my wife) had eaten pork for brunch in public on Easter Sunday. In the SDA 27 Fundamental Beliefs (and on the baptismal certificate), abstaining from unclean food is considered a MINIMUM requirement for church membership. In Requirements and Guidelines, on pg. 278, it says this is one of the ì...minimal requirements for becoming members.î And he wanted to convene people who didnít meet the minimum definition of SDA church membership to sit in judgment of me and my wife being members! I think am going to petition Websterís to redefine the word ìhypocriteî and add ìAn SDA Church Board Member that eats bacon and ham in public on Easter Sunday and then sits in judgment of others for affiliating with Evangelicalsî as a supplemental definition. The hypocrisy of it all was just too much. I wonít share all of it with you, but the pastor really showed me a petty, vindictive side I had never seen in him before. Quite a sad thing when you think about it. His superior attitude was the real kicker. He was under the impression that an Evangelical pastor had laid hands on me and ordained me, said they had no authority, that my ordination was bogus, and that this was proof of my "apostasy." I had to correct him and tell him that I had only had hands layed on me the 3 timesó when I was ordained by some esteemed SDA ministers as a lay pastor, then an elder, and the last time when he himself ordained me as an evangelist at a surprise ceremony--without even telling me he was going to do it! Weird, isnít it! He found me fit for ordination as an elder/evangelist, but when he thought an Evangelical minister had trumped him by laying hands on me, all of the sudden I was an apostate! Then he accused me of trying to pass myself off as an SDA pastor with an Evangelical credential. I had to correct him here too-- people just assumed I was the pastor because I was at church every week wearing a suit, and he was only here once a month and barely speaks English. They would always call me pastor, and I would correct them and tell them I was just a church elder. I didnít want to break his heart and tell him people had been requesting me to do the services because they couldnít understand him with his thick Spanish accent whenever he was here. Then he got on me about supposedly paying a ìmonthly feeî to an Evangelical organization (which he assumed, and was not true), and how this was proof of what a sleazy operation it was, even said i was guilty of "simony." I corrected him, and informed him that quite the contrary, I had never paid such a fee, that my wife and I had been giving over $1000.00 per month to the SDA Churchó and that if some other members had been as faithful we might have had a full-time pastor instead of him visiting once a month. I did not say this, but hereís the real hypocrisy and spiritual blindness in him-- EVERY SDA minister has 10% of his income deducted right off the top from his monthly pay by the conference. This is not an optional tithe or a gift from the heart of a joyful giveró it is a condition of employment as an SDA pastor! So, who was the one paying the "monthly feeî for their ordination? I also reminded him that I had asked him to help me get a time-limited license from the conference so I could do church work in the community, but no help here, so he had essentially left me to seek covering elsewhere. There is a lot moreó but really, it is just too much to tell. Itís like there has been a special resurrection of the Sanhedrin here so they can ask for our blood to be on them and their children in addition to Jesusí blood. The pastor kept sending me menacing E-mails, calling me a traitor and accusing me of "secretly coveting" his congregation. He only stopped when I called the conference president and told him I was going to take the pastor's e-mails to the magistrate to have a restraining order issued. And get this-- the conference president said he would do this, but only if I agreed to not to have any contact with any SDA church members! How's that for paranoid? The Lord works in mysterious ways, but I am glad he opened my eyes to the real nature of the beast. I believe I have been set free by this whole experience. After 25 years of saying, ìdonít throw the baby out with the bathwater, every church has its issuesíî I can finally see that there is no baby left. Praise the Lord for opening my eyes after 25 years in the church. The SDA Church is full of some of the finest Christians in the world, and I love them dearly, but there are clearly some problems beyond repair. Keep us in your prayers. | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well praise God you have seen the light. You have people hear who know what you are going through many of us have had some of the same stuff happen in our churches and schools. Pastors hitting members etc. Abuse of children in the schools and the conference stading by the teachers principles and daring you to fight them. The list goes on. So know that we know what you have been through. Its been a journey and God is still with you. Sending all my love as a new sister. | ||
| Busymom Registered user Username: Busymom Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2004 |
Welcome Jonalaska, I can empathize with some of the issues you are dealing with. I made the decision to leave before Easter. It has not been easy. I went through over 2 weeks of only 3-4 hours of sleep a night. I am a nurse who works in a nursing home. Right now I have an Adventist patient. This is fine, I am not in the habit of judging how my patients deal with their illnesses. When your body is "falling apart" or you are facing death it can be a very difficult time for people. It did bother me though when several of my coworkers complained how mean the Adventist pastor was who came to visit this man. (They don't know I am a former Adventist). It really upset me to hear how rude this man had been, my reaction was that here is a man with much more time to study than I do (I have small kids)and he can't behave Christlike, what kind of hope is there for me? I am claiming Jeremiah 17 this week. "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in him. He will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit." You are in my prayers | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 557 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Jonalaska, What a horrendous thing you have gone through. I have numerous JW in-laws and the behavior you mentioned above by the SDA is very much like what a JW who quits or is disfellowshipped goes through. About the 10% being taken out automaticaly from the pay of people who work for the SDA. If it is automatically deducted then it is not a freewill tithing or offering. Then it is not even part of the pay. We cannot even compare this to the Social Security deduction or the Medicare deduction Uncle Sam takes out because at least those monies goes into the general pot to help out all qualifing Americans when they are elidgable. That is so wrong that the SDA church automatically takes out 10%. That 10% should not even be considered as part of the income. |
